Gonzaga

[Tugg Speedman]

Someone from their time zone.  More than like St. Mary's. 

St Marys is 800 miles from Gonzaga. That's like MU have Tulane is its travel partner.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think big picture, the answer might be to start with a 10 team conference (without Gonzaga) and then maybe add a "western division" later on.

The conference would end up with 20 teams or so (which seems insane), but if you can leverage an attractive distribution deal out of it, and make some interesting mid-season match-ups, then it might be worth it.

The idea of a true "conference champ" would go out the window (not everybody is going to play the same schedule), but you could make more money and have some good scheduling options for the top teams.

Maybe you even go to 20 or 22 conf. games. Why not? play everybody in your division once, and play 4 non-division games based upon TV match-ups. It limits travel, and makes it the premier basketball conference.

The financials would obviously have to work, and I have no inside information on this part of it... but maybe it's time to think bigger.

[Dawson Rental]

Getting ND to come to join the Catholic 7 would be the best fit possible.  They will never join a conference for football. 

Nor would they ever be dumb enough to join a conference that doesn't provide them with some football bowl tie-ins.

[LAZER]

I think big picture, the answer might be to start with a 10 team conference (without Gonzaga) and then maybe add a "western division" later on.

I think the idea makes sense, but who would you add to make up the Western division to get to a 20-22 team league?  I don't think you could add that many teams and keep it a premiere league.

[Dawson Rental]

Here would be my answer based on what has worked out here for many years.

You are thinking about it from an outbound perspective only, not inbound.  The Pac 12 has been doing this for years to great success.  When you go visit Oregon on Thursday, you visit Oregon State on Saturday.  When you travel down to UCLA on Thursday, you play USC on Saturday.  Cal and Stanford..same.  Arizona and ASU..same.  Washington and Wash State..same.

You fly out to the coast, you take care of two games.  That's part of it.


Then we get back to rivalries.  Imagine being a Marquette alum and we join a conference in which all of the teams in our league are in California, Oregon, Arizona and New Mexico.  EVERY ONE OF THEM.  How many people here would clamor for another conference team like DePaul or another school at least in the same time zone?  Many here would, just as Gonzaga is going to do the same.  They are going to want at least another school they are familiar with, plays in their time zone, etc.  Otherwise you are putting an unfair travel burden on their athletes.  Think about a 12 team league in which half your games are on the road.  For Gonzaga in this league, they are traveling a ton every time they come out, get back to school for classes, come back out for games, get back to school for classes, wash, rinse, repeat. 

They are going to want a travel partner and someone that is at least in their region.  They would be foolish not to ask for something like this and make it a condition of any entry.  I would demand if I were their AD or president.  If I didn't get it, then I stay in the WCC and continue to make the NCAA tournament every year. 

And this is why Gonzaga doesn't make sense - regardless of how badly many here want it - except as a men's basketball only member. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think the idea makes sense, but who would you add to make up the Western division to get to a 20-22 team league?  I don't think you could add that many teams and keep it a premiere league.

Yea, maybe not.

You'd have to be willing to add some lower quality teams. But, if you can get Gonzaga, St. Marys, Creighton, and 1 other good team in the "western division" you have a good start. 4 good teams and 6 average to below average teams.

4-6 good teams in the eastern division, 4 good teams in the western division. You could get 8 bids per year, and you could have a really cool conf. tournament, and maybe even some early season neutral site double headers.

[Oldgym]

BTW, to accomplish this exercise, I actually pulled out a map.  And holy crap I didn't really fully comprehend how isolated Gonzaga would be from the rest of the conference.  This would be the equivalent of the Big Ten adding Oregon.  And while all conferences are expanding their footprint, they aren't doing so like this.  (WVU to B12 excluded...oh and that clusterf*ck called the Big East.)

I did the same thing.  Actually made one up.  Good way to visualize what we're discussing.

http://goo.gl/maps/Xe6Fx

[downtown85]

And this is why Gonzaga doesn't make sense - regardless of how badly many here want it - except as a men's basketball only member. 

What about letting Gonzaga stay in the WAC or whatever conference they are in and make them a C? adjunct member (making them essentially the 11th member).  They would play 10 games total with the C? ( 5 home and 5 away, one game with every member).  They can negotiate a lesser schedule with their own conference but not leave it.  This would be an interim deal until things take shape further out west for the new conference.   Just a thought.

[LAZER]

Yea, maybe not.

You'd have to be willing to add some lower quality teams. But, if you can get Gonzaga, St. Marys, Creighton, and 1 other good team in the "western division" you have a good start. 4 good teams and 6 average to below average teams.

4-6 good teams in the eastern division, 4 good teams in the western division. You could get 8 bids per year, and you could have a really cool conf. tournament, and maybe even some early season neutral site double headers.

Yeah that wouldn't be that bad.  I don't know how i'd feel about it because MU would be set up perfectly for the Western Conference, but as a whole the conference wouldn't be bad.

[GOO]

If we are able to add a Gonzaga, which would be great if it can work.  And maybe add a BYU or another west coast school, my assumption would be that they would play an unbalanced schedule:  play each other twice, and play the midwestern teams more than the east coast teams and vice versa.  That way, they are making only a couple of trips to the east coast a year and the east coast teams are only making a west coast trip once a year or every other year.  This shortens flights and more importantly, it limits the time zone change issues somewhat.

IF, a big IF, Gonzaga works out, I hope we don't go to divisions, but rather unbalanced schedules.

[ChicosBailBonds]

BTW, to accomplish this exercise, I actually pulled out a map.  And holy crap I didn't really fully comprehend how isolated Gonzaga would be from the rest of the conference.  This would be the equivalent of the Big Ten adding Oregon.  And while all conferences are expanding their footprint, they aren't doing so like this.  (WVU to B12 excluded...oh and that clusterf*ck called the Big East.)

Exactly.  Spokane is already isolated from everything even in the west, but now add where they would have to travel for this conference....it is a big ask of them because of where they are located.  They are going to want at least one other west coast partner, as they should.  If I were them, if I didn't get that I would say pass.  It just isn't worth the upside to their program and the wear and tear on their athletes, the lack of rivalries for their alumni, etc.

[ChicosBailBonds]

St Marys is 800 miles from Gonzaga. That's like MU have Tulane is its travel partner.

Yes, and?  Look at the entire WCC...Gonzaga is far away from almost all of them.  Why would they want to join a conference where every one of their opponents is at least two time zones away?  No natural rivalries, excessive travel, excessive costs, early starting times for their fans, etc.  Imagine if MU was in a conference where every opponent was in the Pacific time zone...how would you react?

[ChicosBailBonds]

What about letting Gonzaga stay in the WAC or whatever conference they are in and make them a C? adjunct member (making them essentially the 11th member).  They would play 10 games total with the C? ( 5 home and 5 away, one game with every member).  They can negotiate a lesser schedule with their own conference but not leave it.  This would be an interim deal until things take shape further out west for the new conference.   Just a thought.

If I were the WCC I would tell them to pound sound.  You are either all in or all out.  WCC would be foolish not to.  Gonzaga brings basketball to the WCC, not much else.  So having all the other schools in the WCC miss out on Gonzaga for hoops but then be forced to play in Spokane for volleyball, track, etc....I think most WCC schools would say no thanks.

[Tugg Speedman]

Nor would they ever be dumb enough to join a conference that doesn't provide them with some football bowl tie-ins.

And what bowl tie-ins did ND get from the ACC?  Answer none.

ND joined the ACC because they get a lot of students from the east and wanted a stronger tie-in to that region.  A lot of their non-revenue teams have rosters loaded with kids from the ACC region.

As I repeatedly said, it makes a lot of sense for ND to be a NON-FOOTBALL member of the ACC.  But if the ACC "blows up"*** then ND will be looking for a new home and the C7 will be a natural fit.

*** = How does the ACC blow up?  Currently the ACC has the smallest football TV deal of the power conferences.  So if the SEC, B1G, B12 or even the PAC-12 coming calling, they will jump.  So, if another ACC school leaves (especially if it is UNC) it will repeat the BE's fate and everyone will try and run as fast as they can.

The only way the ACC can "protect itself" is to get a TV deal on par with the other power conferences.  Problem is they are not good enough in football to warrant such a deal.

[Dr. Blackheart]

And what bowl tie-ins did ND get from the ACC?  Answer none.

ND joined the ACC because they get a lot of students from the east and wanted a stronger tie-in to that region.  A lot of their non-revenue teams have rosters loaded with kids from the ACC region.

As I repeatedly said, it makes a lot of sense for ND to be a NON-FOOTBALL member of the ACC.  But if the ACC "blows up"*** then ND will be looking for a new home and the C7 will be a natural fit.

*** = How does the ACC blow up?  Currently the ACC has the smallest football TV deal of the power conferences.  So if the SEC, B1G, B12 or even the PAC-12 coming calling, they will jump.  So, if another ACC school leaves (especially if it is UNC) it will repeat the BE's fate and everyone will try and run as fast as they can.

The only way the ACC can "protect itself" is to get a TV deal on par with the other power conferences.  Problem is they are not good enough in football to warrant such a deal.

But UND picked the ACC clean on conference football bowl tie-ins...so it was all about football.

In short, Notre Dame gives up nothing in football and is guaranteed to be part of the ACC’s bowl package in years that it doesn’t reach the playoffs or a BCS game. With the Big East in disarray, thanks in large part to the ACC constantly raiding it for teams (Notre Dame now makes six: Miami, Virginia Tech, Boston College, Syracuse and Pittsburgh previously) Notre Dame will b e part of a stable bowl package without having to commit to a full schedule.

Additionally, the way the deal is written, an ACC team will need two more wins than Notre Dame to not get leap-frogged by the Irish in the bowl pecking order.
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-09-16/sports/35498014_1_notre-dame-acc-bowl-championship-series

[GGGG]

And what bowl tie-ins did ND get from the ACC?  Answer none.

That isn't quite true...they will be getting "preferred access" to ACC bowls.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/notre-dame-move-acc-big-win-irish-fan-134200001--ncaaf.html

"But the biggest impact on the Notre Dame football program will be its access to ACC bowl tie-ins. In the past, the Irish had to scramble for bowl invites in seasons - all too frequent in recent years - when the team didn't finish high in BCS rankings. Now, the Irish will slot into the ACC's bowl deals for schools that finish in the middle of the conference standings.

But there is a bowl upside for Notre Dame as well. Fresh off the announcement about its plans to associate with the ACC, Swarbrick is working on a deal with the Orange Bowl to make the Irish a preferred invitee in successful seasons."

[Tugg Speedman]

I stand corrected

But isn't all of this a short-term bridge to the playoff system that starts in 2014?  Yes it starts with 4 teams but that will not last long before it is expanded.

[Avenue Commons]

I like the idea of Gonzaga joining the league.

I hate the idea of Gonzaga joining the league if it means that St. Mary's has to come too. Gonzaga and BYU are the only two programs west of Omaha who are fits for this new league. Therefore, if you can't get BYU, sorry Gonzaga, you either fly solo or you don't fly at all.

The  league is probably not going to go above 12 teams for some time. With Xavier and Butler already with one foot in the door, that only leaves 3 spots left. Are you really going to use one of your 3 remaining league slots just to admit a team who plays in a gym barely bigger than the AL? The end result means you can only have one of Creighton, SLU, Dayton, VCU, George Mason, etc. before you're at 12.

And for what?
--"Bay Area TV?" SMC is on their best day, in a complete dream world, a third or fourth-place also-ran college program in the Bay Area. Saying SMC delivers Bay Area eyeballs is like saying Loyola delivers the Chicago TV market.
--"A travel partner for Gonzaga?" They're 867 miles apart. That'd be like adding Tulane to be a travel partner for Xavier.
--"An up and coming program?" They've been to the tournament  5 times since 1990. Same as SLU.

SLU gives you exactly the same thing as St. Mary's but 1) Are on their worst day, the #3 college team in St. Louis after Mizzou and UIUC, but play in a city with no pro basketball. 2.) You can drive from SLU to DePaul, back to SLU, and then start a second road trip from SLU to Butler for the same distance as it would take St. Mary's to make one trip to Gonzaga, 3.) Reduced travel costs for conference members, and an athletic program that is at least on par with St. Mary's.

Long post short
Gonzaga > SLU
SLU > SMC
SLU > Gonzaga + SMC

If I was giving out year end bonuses for posts, you'd get a gold Rolex watch. Solid analysis that is in line with the conventional wisdom.  St. Mary's is a non-starter. I'll bet anything that if Gonzaga joins, it's for hoops only. The Providence girls travel field hockey team is not flying literally across country.

[GGGG]

I stand corrected

But isn't all of this a short-term bridge to the playoff system that starts in 2014?  Yes it starts with 4 teams but that will not last long before it is expanded.

But they years that they aren't in the top 4, ND will still get access to the Orange...plus those second-tier type games that have a decent pay day. 

[Tugg Speedman]

But they years that they aren't in the top 4, ND will still get access to the Orange...plus those second-tier type games that have a decent pay day. 

Yes, but how long will it stay at 4?  I'll bet within 5 years it will be 8 if not 16.

And remember that ND is not part of the ACC for two years.

[GGGG]

Yes, but how long will it stay at 4?  I'll bet within 5 years it will be 8 if not 16.

And remember that ND is not part of the ACC for two years.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens.  First off, I think attendance at some of these "semifinal" bowls is going to be dismal.  There is a reason that most of these games are held at home sites in other divisions.  So I think if it goes to 8 or 16, it will have to be done with home sites.

Then the question becomes, what happens to the teams that lose in the first round?  Are their seasons done?  Is it then better for a team to get, say, an Outback Bowl invite rather than qualify for the tournament?  Then what happens to bowl attendance?  Remember that ESPN owns a lot of these bowls and has a vested interest in their survival. 

[spiral97]

I did the same thing.  Actually made one up.  Good way to visualize what we're discussing.

http://goo.gl/maps/Xe6Fx

Nice.. found this map to help out as well.. all div 1 basketball programs.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/60/Cbd1.PNG

[Tugg Speedman]

It's going to be interesting to see what happens.  First off, I think attendance at some of these "semifinal" bowls is going to be dismal.  There is a reason that most of these games are held at home sites in other divisions.  So I think if it goes to 8 or 16, it will have to be done with home sites.

Then the question becomes, what happens to the teams that lose in the first round?  Are their seasons done?  Is it then better for a team to get, say, an Outback Bowl invite rather than qualify for the tournament?  Then what happens to bowl attendance?  Remember that ESPN owns a lot of these bowls and has a vested interest in their survival. 

I agree that we will have to see how this plays out.  But I can see the semi-final games being as not a ticket as a non-national championship bowl game.   So, I would not be surprised if a playoff "consumes" the BCS bowls.  Sure the second tier bowls will survive but who cares.

[keefe]

And this is why Gonzaga doesn't make sense - regardless of how badly many here want it - except as a men's basketball only member. 

It might not make sense to you but you are not Gonzaga. Gonzaga is in, pending a last look at logistics and other sports. Trust me - other sports is not a big deal and will get sorted.

[Avenue Commons]

It might not make sense to you but you are not Gonzaga. Gonzaga is in, pending a last look at logistics and other sports. Trust me - other sports is not a big deal and will get sorted.

Other sports is a HUGE deal. Travel costs could kill programs. Maybe not for DePaul or MU, but for the East Voast schools its a ridiculous price for non bball schools.