NHL 23-24

[MU82]

I agree that there's semantics involved, as there is in so many of these discussions.

I mean, maybe Anthony Edwards IS more "talented" than Jordan, Bryant, etc, were, but he's obviously not more "accomplished." One could make a similar argument about McDavid vs Orr/Gretzky/Lemieux, even if I disagree.

So I'll say right now that maybe I shouldn't have been so dismissive of Subban's comment.

However, I'll also say that maybe ESPN's hockey expert shouldn't be 100% certain that a talented guy who has led his team to absolutely nothing of note in 9 years is more talented than uber-talented icons who led their teams to greatness. And, in the cases of Orr and Gretzky, talented icons who did things on the ice that no hockey observer had ever seen before ... and who set standards that the likes of McDavid are still trying to match.

[PGsHeroes32]

I agree that there's semantics involved, as there is in so many of these discussions.

I mean, maybe Anthony Edwards IS more "talented" than Jordan, Bryant, etc, were, but he's obviously not more "accomplished." One could make a similar argument about McDavid vs Orr/Gretzky/Lemieux, even if I disagree.

So I'll say right now that maybe I shouldn't have been so dismissive of Subban's comment.

However, I'll also say that maybe ESPN's hockey expert shouldn't be 100% certain that a talented guy who has led his team to absolutely nothing of note in 9 years is more talented than uber-talented icons who led their teams to greatness. And, in the cases of Orr and Gretzky, talented icons who did things on the ice that no hockey observer had ever seen before ... and who set standards that the likes of McDavid are still trying to match.

No the issue is you used Edwards with McDavid.

One guy has been the best player in his sport over and over again already by his mid 20s

The other while extremely talented most argue isn’t even a superstar within his current peers yet.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I know the Coyotes were an abysmal failure in Phoenix, but I'm not sure Salt Lake is a great idea. The next smallest metropolitan area that has both an NHL and NBA team is Denver. Denver is the 19th largest metropolitan area...Salt Lake is 46th.

[MU82]

No the issue is you used Edwards with McDavid.

One guy has been the best player in his sport over and over again already by his mid 20s

The other while extremely talented most argue isn’t even a superstar within his current peers yet.

No, the issue is the definition of "talented."

But sure, take Edwards out of this if you possibly can. I will - I shouldn't have used that example because I didn't need to.

Not a shred of actual evidence exists to "prove" that Connor McDavid is more talented than Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux were (and probably others, too, but those 3 are pretty obvious). It's classic recency bias. And only somebody who knows absolutely nothing about hockey before the turn of the century would argue that McDavid has been more accomplished or important than any of those 3.

[PGsHeroes32]

No, the issue is the definition of "talented."

But sure, take Edwards out of this if you possibly can. I will - I shouldn't have used that example because I didn't need to.

Not a shred of actual evidence exists to "prove" that Connor McDavid is more talented than Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux were (and probably others, too, but those 3 are pretty obvious). It's classic recency bias. And only somebody who knows absolutely nothing about hockey before the turn of the century would argue that McDavid has been more accomplished or important than any of those 3.

Huh???

You keep twisting yourself

First you say “talented” then you finish with “accomplishments”

Did goldeneagles03 hack your account with the goal post shifting?

No one one here has said McDavid has accomplished more than Gretzky or Orr. Hell, no one has even said he’s definitely more talented. You just keep using insane analogies and arguments because you’re upset Subban said he’s the most talented to ever play.

Which right or wrong, is not outlandish. He’s an absolute freak.

I think the only bias is truly you with current generation type players and more of a love for nostalgia. You’re the same guy who acts like Mike Trout is closer to Michael A Taylor talent wise than Hank Aaron.

[Pakuni]

Not a shred of actual evidence exists to "prove" that Connor McDavid is more talented than Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux were (and probably others, too, but those 3 are pretty obvious). It's classic recency bias. And only somebody who knows absolutely nothing about hockey before the turn of the century would argue that McDavid has been more accomplished or important than any of those 3.

I'm not sure how one "proves" an entirely subjective opinion, but that said ... if you can watch Connor McDavid skate end-to-end at top speed, stickhandling through five defenders and then deking a goaltender and scoring top shelf, and not believe he might be the most gifted players ever, I'm not sure what I can tell you.
If you're equating talent with only production, you're correct, Gretzky is unparalleled. But I don't think it's crazy to define talent more broadly.

[MU82]

Huh???

You keep twisting yourself

First you say “talented” then you finish with “accomplishments”

Did goldeneagles03 hack your account with the goal post shifting?

No one one here has said McDavid has accomplished more than Gretzky or Orr. Hell, no one has even said he’s definitely more talented. You just keep using insane analogies and arguments because you’re upset Subban said he’s the most talented to ever play.

Which right or wrong, is not outlandish. He’s an absolute freak.

I think the only bias is truly you with current generation type players and more of a love for nostalgia. You’re the same guy who acts like Mike Trout is closer to Michael A Taylor talent wise than Hank Aaron.

P.K. Subban called McDavid “the most talented player that the NHL has ever seen,” and I disagreed. I never said that any Scoopers said anything, and I'm not "upset" about what Subban or anybody else said. Your tone would suggest that you're the one who is "upset," though you probably aren't. Who gets upset about silly sh!t like this?

I'm not sure how one "proves" an entirely subjective opinion, but that said ... if you can watch Connor McDavid skate end-to-end at top speed, stickhandling through five defenders and then deking a goaltender and scoring top shelf, and not believe he might be the most gifted players ever, I'm not sure what I can tell you.
If you're equating talent with only production, you're correct, Gretzky is unparalleled. But I don't think it's crazy to define talent more broadly.

That's fair. McDavid certainly might be among the most gifted players ever. I sure have enjoyed watching him play.

[JWags85]

However, I'll also say that maybe ESPN's hockey expert shouldn't be 100% certain that a talented guy who has led his team to absolutely nothing of note in 9 years is more talented than uber-talented icons who led their teams to greatness. And, in the cases of Orr and Gretzky, talented icons who did things on the ice that no hockey observer had ever seen before ... and who set standards that the likes of McDavid are still trying to match.

Its worth nothing that unlike Gretzky's time in Edmonton, McDavid's time has been with a largely incompetent organization.  99's first Stanley Cup winning team had 6 other future HOFers.  In McDavid's 9 years, he's played with exactly ONE other player who has made more than 1 ASG, much less a HOF resume.  Other than Draisaitl, there has been one solitary ASG appearance from ANY other Oiler in 9 years (Taylor Hall in 2016 when McDavid was a rookie).  They've managed to put absolute garbage around him for almost a decade.

I know the Coyotes were an abysmal failure in Phoenix, but I'm not sure Salt Lake is a great idea. The next smallest metropolitan area that has both an NHL and NBA team is Denver. Denver is the 19th largest metropolitan area...Salt Lake is 46th.

Its less to do with SLC and more to do with Ryan Smith, who also owns the Jazz.  He's committed to throwing a bunch of money behind the new team and I think that support is the most attractive thing about them.  And the fact that the Jazz are well supported and attended.

[PGsHeroes32]

Its worth nothing that unlike Gretzky's time in Edmonton, McDavid's time has been with a largely incompetent organization.  99's first Stanley Cup winning team had 6 other future HOFers.  In McDavid's 9 years, he's played with exactly ONE other player who has made more than 1 ASG, much less a HOF resume.  Other than Draisaitl, there has been one solitary ASG appearance from ANY other Oiler in 9 years (Taylor Hall in 2016 when McDavid was a rookie).  They've managed to put absolute garbage around him for almost a decade.

Zach freaking Hyman is a 50 goal scorer thanks to playing with McDavid.

I’m actually glad that McDavid isn’t surrounded by a bunch of talent. Playoff season would be a lot less interesting.

[MU82]

Its worth nothing that unlike Gretzky's time in Edmonton, McDavid's time has been with a largely incompetent organization.  99's first Stanley Cup winning team had 6 other future HOFers.  In McDavid's 9 years, he's played with exactly ONE other player who has made more than 1 ASG, much less a HOF resume.  Other than Draisaitl, there has been one solitary ASG appearance from ANY other Oiler in 9 years (Taylor Hall in 2016 when McDavid was a rookie).  They've managed to put absolute garbage around him for almost a decade.

Fair.

Gretzky did help make a lot of those around him great, too, as did Lemiuex, so there's the chicken/egg situation. But sure, the Oilers had lots of talent.

Hey, the fact that McDavid is even being mentioned in the same breath as Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr is a tremendous compliment to him. He's a hell of a player.