MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Galway Eagle on June 26, 2020, 09:53:05 AM
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Just curious what everyone's attitudes are regarding drinking age. I think I fall into the last category.
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Remove it entirely. We've turn alcohol into a rite of passage, and that is part of our problem.
Teaching children and young adults responsible behavior as they grow up is probably a more reasonable path.
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Remove it entirely. We've turn alcohol into a rite of passage, and that is part of our problem.
Teaching children and young adults responsible behavior as they grow up is probably a more reasonable path.
Edited for your option. Not sure I agree with your option but I could see an argument for no age with parent present.
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I voted for 19. But, if 18 is old enough to vote, join the military and die, marry, be responsible for your life choices, be executed for your crimes, you should be able to drink.
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Most of the rest of the world has it rightly at 18. At this point its more about making money off of 18 to 20 year olds with tickets, fines, and classes then actually "protecting" them.
America has one of the highest rates of alcoholic incidents with underage drinkers due to all the hoops they have to jump through to drink.
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I voted for 19. But, if 18 is old enough to vote, join the military and die, marry, be responsible for your life choices, be executed for your crimes, you should be able to drink.
I definitely agree with this logic but then I think about High School seniors getting High school freshmen and sophomores drunk and that makes me have second thoughts and lean toward 19.
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Most of the rest of the world has it rightly at 18. At this point its more about making money off of 18 to 20 year olds with tickets, fines, and classes then actually "protecting" them.
America has one of the highest rates of alcoholic incidents with underage drinkers due to all the hoops they have to jump through to drink.
Have to imagine the tax revenue from adding three additional drinking years would outweigh the ticket revenue.
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Edited for your option. Not sure I agree with your option but I could see an argument for no age with parent present.
Not sure I like your wording, but uhhhh thanks!
Most of the rest of the world has it rightly at 18. At this point its more about making money off of 18 to 20 year olds with tickets, fines, and classes then actually "protecting" them.
America has one of the highest rates of alcoholic incidents with underage drinkers due to all the hoops they have to jump through to drink.
Basically, this is my stance about quite a few laws. I could also be talked into a situation where we decide to actually enforce over-serving and putting some accountability back on the bars and restaurants. They'd fight it tooth and nail, but it would cut down on DUIs and related problems. I have never been refused service, and I can think of plenty of times where I should have been.
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Not sure I like your wording, but uhhhh thanks!
Basically, this is my stance about quite a few laws. I could also be talked into a situation where we decide to actually enforce over-serving and putting some accountability back on the bars and restaurants. They'd fight it tooth and nail, but it would cut down on DUIs and related problems. I have never been refused service, and I can think of plenty of times where I should have been.
had to add it for laughs.
And if you can still recall the times that you were over served then you weren't over served enough!
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They'd fight it tooth and nail, but it would cut down on DUIs and related problems.
The forbidding of alcohol and beer being sold past 9pm in tons of Wisconsin counties is the most backwards law I've ever seen.
Why would we allow people to buy at 10pm and be safe in their homes, when we can have them out until 2:30am drinking and then driving!
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The forbidding of alcohol and beer being sold past 9pm in tons of Wisconsin counties is the most backwards law I've ever seen.
Why would we allow people to buy at 10pm and be safe in their homes, when we can have them out until 2:30am drinking and then driving!
Tavern league is evil!
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It's 19 in the Province of Ontario.
That's what I voted. Keep it legally out of high schools.
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I'm assuming omitting prohibition was just an oversight.
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On one hand, I like the idea of keeping it out of high schools. On the other hand, I think a year of legally being able to drink while they are still under the custody of their parents could be a good thing.
I've also wondered in the past if it would be beneficial to lower the drinking age and raise the driving age. I think having a couple of years to learn first hand about the impact of alcohol on the body before they are able to get behind a wheel may lead to fewer incidents of drunk driving.
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The forbidding of alcohol and beer being sold past 9pm in tons of Wisconsin counties is the most backwards law I've ever seen.
Why would we allow people to buy at 10pm and be safe in their homes, when we can have them out until 2:30am drinking and then driving!
actually, you can buy package beer after 9pm....from taverns. And a 12 pack of Lite would cost $18 or something ridiculous like that. We had to do that a couple times out at Lake Oconomowoc when we ran low during parties.
It's all about revenue for the tavern league members, which in turn goes back to legislators in the form of campaign contributions to keep the law intact.
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If the tavern league is so powerful why do they not lobby for 18 or 19? Seems like it'd be a win win for all parties in that scenario except MADD
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I didn't vote because I think it should be 16 like in Germany, Belgium and Denmark. It would help to eliminate the taboo so it would be less often seen as an act of rebellion or "rite of passage to 'adulthood'," and would give teens the opportunity to legally and more openly experience alcohol while still living with their parents.
For those who think it would increase alcoholism, I give you WHO's data on prevalence of alcohol use disorders. The US (drinking age of 21) has a prevalence of 5.48% for men and 1.92% for women. By comparison, the three aforementioned countries (drinking age 16) have prevalence of 4.51%/0.88% (Germany), 4.12%/0.98% (Denmark) and 2.03%/0.84% (Belgium).
http://gamapserver.who.int/gho/interactive_charts/substance_abuse/bod_alcohol_prevalence/atlas.html
For what it's worth, I would also lower the BAC for DUI charges like they do in all three of those countries (0.03% in Germany, 0.05% in the other two), and I would make penalties stricter than they are in most states.
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I definitely agree with this logic but then I think about High School seniors getting High school freshmen and sophomores drunk and that makes me have second thoughts and lean toward 19.
They are doing it now so what's the difference?
Full disclosure, I'm pretty much a libertarian so I think the few the laws the better and if you are going to enact a law, enforce it consistently and uniformly but in a way that discourages the behavior without criminalizing it
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Thank God for Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, MADD, MAGV, MAPB, thank God for mothers.
For some it's no mothers, for me it's thank God.
In my view it's the behavior and not the age.
Some states like Tennessee and Wisconsin are behind the rest of the country and the world on many subjects including drinking.
The pandemic will close so many bars that over drinking will becom as yesterday as cuspidors.
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If the tavern league is so powerful why do they not lobby for 18 or 19? Seems like it'd be a win win for all parties in that scenario except MADD
Wisconsin vs Federal law
Federal law says 21. Tavern league of Wisconsin... is Wisconsin only.
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They are doing it now so what's the difference?
Full disclosure, I'm pretty much a libertarian so I think the few the laws the better and if you are going to enact a law, enforce it consistently and uniformly but in a way that discourages the behavior without criminalizing it
Are they doing it now? What is the actual drinking rate amongst US HS students and do we know how it's broken up by year in HS?
Wisconsin vs Federal law
Federal law says 21. Tavern league of Wisconsin... is Wisconsin only.
is it federal law? I always heard the feds let the states decide the age but withheld funding if they didn't make it 21. Guess I never actually checked
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If the tavern league is so powerful why do they not lobby for 18 or 19? Seems like it'd be a win win for all parties in that scenario except MADD
Wasn't Wisconsin the last state to go to 21? I believe there are federal dollars tied to 21.
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Are they doing it now? What is the actual drinking rate amongst US HS students and do we know how it's broken up by year in HS?
is it federal law? I always heard the feds let the states decide the age but withheld funding if they didn't make it 21. Guess I never actually checked
Ah, yes, that's it. They withheld federal funding for highways. My bad!
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I'm assuming omitting prohibition was just an oversight.
My bad, I don't want to forget our Scoopers who believe in the temperance movement.
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If the tavern league is so powerful why do they not lobby for 18 or 19? Seems like it'd be a win win for all parties in that scenario except MADD
As I recall, they did for a time, but the Fed withheld funds from states that wouldn't go to 21 so eventually Wisconsin came in line. I believe we were the last to adopt 21.
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For what it's worth, I would also lower the BAC for DUI charges like they do in all three of those countries (0.03% in Germany, 0.05% in the other two), and I would make penalties stricter than they are in most states.
It's believe its been proven that driving with a BAC at 0.08 leads to no more crashes then someone at 0.00. I do know for certain that the founder of MADD was completely against lowering the federal BAC to 0.08.
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The poll looks like someone giving the finger.
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I'm really surprised that there's more votes for 18 flat out and for 21 flat out than 18 for beer wine etc. I thought that's a great option to ease people into drinking, get rid of the "drink as many shots as you can" game that me and so many others played at 18/19 yrs old. Plus you could reasonably open bars that are designed just for 18+ by eliminating hard alcohols.
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It's believe its been proven that driving with a BAC at 0.08 leads to no more crashes then someone at 0.00. I do know for certain that the founder of MADD was completely against lowering the federal BAC to 0.08.
I hadn't ever heard that. Surprising if true.
All that said, as much as I am for punishing drunk driving, I am FAR more concerned with distracted driving than DUI. I bike a lot, and some of the things I have seen have been horrifying. Of course the run of the mill texting driver who suddenly veers off onto the shoulder, or the driver who doesn't understand the concept of hands-free calling. But also people with textbooks propped up on steering wheels, etc. Anyway, different discussion.
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Thank God for Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, MADD, MAGV, MAPB, thank God for mothers.
For some it's no mothers, for me it's thank God.
In my view it's the behavior and not the age.
Some states like Tennessee and Wisconsin are behind the rest of the country and the world on many subjects including drinking.
The pandemic will close so many bars that over drinking will becom as yesterday as cuspidors.
Getting drunk is a fad.
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I'm really surprised that there's more votes for 18 flat out and for 21 flat out than 18 for beer wine etc. I thought that's a great option to ease people into drinking, get rid of the "drink as many shots as you can" game that me and so many others played at 18/19 yrs old. Plus you could reasonably open bars that are designed just for 18+ by eliminating hard alcohols.
I think it's just too hard to enforce.
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Too effen drunk to see the poll choices.
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Ah, yes, that's it. They withheld federal funding for highways. My bad!
South Dakota v. Dole in 1983. Though it was only 5% of federal highway funds that were going to be withheld.
The problem of state-by-state laws was the ease of crossing borders for those under 21 to purchase and consume alcohol.
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I'm really surprised that there's more votes for 18 flat out and for 21 flat out than 18 for beer wine etc. I thought that's a great option to ease people into drinking, get rid of the "drink as many shots as you can" game that me and so many others played at 18/19 yrs old. Plus you could reasonably open bars that are designed just for 18+ by eliminating hard alcohols.
My friends and I went to Daytona (shouldn't have) for spring break our Senior year. We quickly found out that you can go to the bars when you're 18, you just can't drink.
Sooooo we were the drunk older guys at a bar full of kids that were drunk, but couldn't buy booze. And I think the temperature topped out at 65 degrees for the week... and it was windy. Not the spring break we were hoping for.
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My friends and I went to Daytona (shouldn't have) for spring break our Senior year. We quickly found out that you can go to the bars when you're 18, you just can't drink.
Sooooo we were the drunk older guys at a bar full of kids that were drunk, but couldn't buy booze. And I think the temperature topped out at 65 degrees for the week... and it was windy. Not the spring break we were hoping for.
I went to undergrad at Miami University. Oxford, OH has similar regulations, so i was going to bars right away at 18. It was stamps for the unders and wristbands for over. But enforcement was lax. You needed a friend with a fake or an older friend and you were fine holding drinks and drinking all night as long as you weren’t an idiot.
Went to Destin my Junior year. Heard most places in Panama City were similar so myself and another friend who wouldn’t turn 21 till the summer expected to have smooth sailing seeing as most of our group was 21. Until we saw the GIANT black Xs that may as well be tattooed on and eagle eyed bouncers kicking out people who washed the Xs off and had drinks. I had already washed one off, with tons of scrubbing, and was stressed about it most of the night :o
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Have to imagine the tax revenue from adding three additional drinking years would outweigh the ticket revenue.
In my case, I drank as heavy as any years of my life age 18/19 when it wasn't legal for me, but there probably were other kids that were more responsible and waited until it was legal at age 21. You may have a point that there would be more tax revenue as the kids that were more risk averse may have decided to drink more at 18/19 if indeed it was legal.
I did sort of enjoy the "naughtiness factor" of doing something slightly illegal, but yeah, overall it would have been better to have it be legal in my late teens. I personally was born maybe a year or 2 too late to be grandfathered in under the old drinking age rule where you could drink as a teen. I was born in '69, I believe the kids born in '67 were grandfathered in but it's been so long I can't remember for sure.
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They are doing it now so what's the difference?
Full disclosure, I'm pretty much a libertarian so I think the few the laws the better and if you are going to enact a law, enforce it consistently and uniformly but in a way that discourages the behavior without criminalizing it
+1000.
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My friends and I went to Daytona (shouldn't have) for spring break our Senior year. We quickly found out that you can go to the bars when you're 18, you just can't drink.
Sooooo we were the drunk older guys at a bar full of kids that were drunk, but couldn't buy booze. And I think the temperature topped out at 65 degrees for the week... and it was windy. Not the spring break we were hoping for.
Galway and Corn have bars where they decide the Age of the patrons. A fairly famous bar right on Eyre Square is 23+ while most the town is 18 with a couple 21s sprinkled around.
If it ever does drop to 18 I'd be in favor of bars doing that.
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Is there serious talk about lowering the drinking age in any states?
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Is there serious talk about lowering the drinking age in any states?
Don't know. I just posted this for a non political discussion people could weigh in on and debate.
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It was 18 when I entered Marquette. Had a couple of bad experiences but nothing severe.
My children went to SIU Carbondale and the biggest difference was they drank as much as I did but it wasn't legal. What used to be done in bars is now done at house parties and frat parties. In the former, there was some regulation and control over sloppy, really bad drunks. You don't have that anymore.
Lower it and regulate it. Carefully.
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Galway and Corn have bars where they decide the Age of the patrons. A fairly famous bar right on Eyre Square is 23+ while most the town is 18 with a couple 21s sprinkled around.
If it ever does drop to 18 I'd be in favor of bars doing that.
I went to 21 and over and even 23 and over bars and clubs in Galway and Cork. The 23 and over club we went to in Cork, we were all under 21 but four of us had fakes and the fifth was a 300 pound D3 offensive lineman who was never carded. A much more mature crowd with a lot less obnoxious drunkenness.
Usually women were never carded though.
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It's hard to imagine how much different my Marquette experience would have been had 18-year-olds not been allowed to drink legally back then.
It was such a part of the culture. MU officials would put signs up by the elevators on every McCormick floor encouraging us to have keggers. The signs weren't just handwritten by some MU lackey (or Bob Lackey); they were professionally produced by the fine folks at Miller, Schlitz or Pabst. Miller was especially active promoting this kind of thing. And Marquette was all-in on it.
There was a bar in the basement of the student union, the Mug Rack, and they'd bring in bands on Friday afternoons to get the weekends started early.
Of course, many kids started their weekends on Thursdays, which was a huge night for $1 pitchers and/or 25-cent taps at establishments around campus. Once I realized that -- which took all of one semester -- I would work my schedule so I never had a Friday class before noon. I was hardly alone in that regard.
Almost any night of the week, it was easy to find a ridiculous beer special. Yes, this was 106 years ago so everything seemed incredibly cheap then compared to now, but still ... a quarter is a quarter is a quarter.
Sometimes Marquette would run "Alternative to the Bars" at the rec center -- keep it open till 2 a.m. on Fridays and Saturdays. Woulda been more accurate if they called it "In Addition to the Bars." We would go to Helfaer at 10, shoot hoops for a couple hours, and then hit the bars afterward. And back then, bars were open till 3:30 a.m. on Saturdays.
Once we moved off-campus, we got other favorite haunts. Our group loved Midget Tavern and Harp & Shamrock because we lived out that way. Dan the bartender at Harp loved us for some reason. We'd put a $5 bill on the bar at 11 p.m. and it would still be there when we left at 2 a.m. We'd leave it for him as a tip. My best friend bartended at State House on 13th and State, and those nights were often incredible free-beer fests.
Yes, we almost surely were alcoholics during our time at Marquette. But that culture did help me get to know the people who remain my best friends to this very day. Would I have gotten as close to them had the culture been different? Who knows?
Obviously, as others have discussed, college kids still party. I just wonder how different it became after the age went to 21. Again, hard to imagine, because the above is all I knew.
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Yes, we almost surely were alcoholics during our time at Marquette. But that culture did help me get to know the people who remain my best friends to this very day. Would I have gotten as close to them had the culture been different? Who knows?
Mike
Alcoholism is a disease, not a phase one goes through. You guys were heavy drinkers. If you were alcoholics then, you’re alcoholics now (whether you drink or not).
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I voted for 19.
The drinking age was 18 when I went to Marquette, and everyone was more relaxed. You could go to the bars or a party and drink 2 or 3 beers, and that was okay. You could always get more beer later.
I think the 21 age limit encourages binge drinking. If you are underage, and get into a bar or party, you have to strike while the iron is hot.
One good trend is that kids these days take the "don't drink and drive" thing much more seriously than we did. Even before Uber existed, they planned ahead and made sure to have cab money or a designated driver.
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I think the 21 age limit encourages binge drinking. If you are underage, and get into a bar or party, you have to strike while the iron is hot.
One good trend is that kids these days take the "don't drink and drive" thing much more seriously than we did. Even before Uber existed, they planned ahead and made sure to have cab money or a designated driver.
Agreed on both points.
Regarding the second, my sense is that people who got away with drunk driving before the MADD campaigns have developed a sense of 'being able to handle it' when it comes to driving home drunk. Younger drivers heard the MADD message before they ever had that (over)confidence.
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Mike
Alcoholism is a disease, not a phase one goes through. You guys were heavy drinkers. If you were alcoholics then, you’re alcoholics now (whether you drink or not).
Of course you are correct, Lenny. Foolhardy word-usage by me, akin to a person saying "I was insane," when he wasn't clinically diagnosed as insane.
We indeed were heavy drinkers; definitely drank too much back then. I'm not an alcoholic, thank goodness, and I don't think my friends are.
Most of the stuff we swilled was Lite or the like. Today's beer is so much more potent (and delicious) -- another thing to ponder about the differences between drinking at Marquette then and now.
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Of course you are correct, Lenny. Foolhardy word-usage by me, akin to a person saying "I was insane," when he wasn't clinically diagnosed as insane.
You can't get clinically diagnosed as "insane". That's a legal term, not a medical term. :)
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I went to 21 and over and even 23 and over bars and clubs in Galway and Cork. The 23 and over club we went to in Cork, we were all under 21 but four of us had fakes and the fifth was a 300 pound D3 offensive lineman who was never carded. A much more mature crowd with a lot less obnoxious drunkenness.
Usually women were never carded though.
Yeah exactly. It was always great to head to O'Connells and not be associating with 18yr olds who couldn't stand up straight. But then you realize that at Murphs or Caffs you have 21yr olds acting like the 18yr olds there.
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Talking about drinking age being 18/19 and keeping it out of schools....
I've had a thought in the back of my head that we should "legally" turn of age based on the school year cut off.
Its never made sense to me that a guy who turns 16 on September 3rd can start to drive st the start of his sophomore year, while someone born on August 25th needs to wait until almost his junior year. Even though they are both most likely the same maturity wise.
The same would go for alcohol and voting.
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You can't get clinically diagnosed as "insane". That's a legal term, not a medical term. :)
I think I might get clinically diagnosed as illiterate today!
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It's interesting that so many people are " keep it out of high school" people is that because of the idea that it'd trickle down to the 14 and 15yr olds? Or do we feel that an 18yr old senior is really that much less mature than an 18yr old freshman?
Or is it because parents just don't wanna deal with they're kids coming home wasted when they're still in the house?
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You can't get clinically diagnosed as "insane". That's a legal term, not a medical term. :)
Correct. The proper medical term is "crazy." ;)
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Correct. The proper medical term is "crazy." ;)
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-23-2017/WRy6wr.gif)
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Getting drunk is a fad.
For some, for others it progresses and ends in death.
IF YOU DIE FROM IT, AND IT'S NOT AN ACCIDENT, IT'S A DESEASE.
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It's interesting that so many people are " keep it out of high school" people is that because of the idea that it'd trickle down to the 14 and 15yr olds? Or do we feel that an 18yr old senior is really that much less mature than an 18yr old freshman?
Or is it because parents just don't wanna deal with they're kids coming home wasted when they're still in the house?
All of the above.
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When can you vote ... 18. When can you die for your country ... 18. Let 'em drink. They are adults.
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I've lived in enough countries outside the US where there is either no age or no enforcement that I think 18 is no problem. I also agree with the vote/war/drink logic. There's some sense to the beer/cider/other low alcohol logic under 21 but to me what's more sensible is really pushing the responsible drinking aspect which is much easier now with uber and other ride sharing apps.
What has always baffled me as a Wisconsinite is the rural bars where people get plowed and then drive their pickup trucks home as if they are invisible because they are in the middle of nowhere.
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What about a rule that says it is 18 if you have a high school diploma or are active military, and 21 otherwise?
It would help keep the booze out of the high schools, acknowledge the military angle, and also discourage dropping out.
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Drink at 18 get your driving license at 21.
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What about a rule that says it is 18 if you have a high school diploma or are active military, and 21 otherwise?
It would help keep the booze out of the high schools, acknowledge the military angle, and also discourage dropping out.
Would you have the DMV add a sticker as proof? Or would you have people bring their HS diploma to the Bar?
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Would you have the DMV add a sticker as proof? Or would you have people bring their HS diploma to the Bar?
Perhaps the state department of education could have a card of its own that proves the person is a high school graduate. Maybe charge $50 or $100 for it and put the profit towards education.
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Perhaps the state department of education could have a card of its own that proves the person is a high school graduate. Maybe charge $50 or $100 for it and put the profit towards education.
Interesting idea. I can't see a downside though of course some people would say it's rigged toward a certain culture that emphasizes education.
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Perhaps the state department of education could have a card of its own that proves the person is a high school graduate. Maybe charge $50 or $100 for it and put the profit towards education.
Nah, we should just chip the kids!
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Perhaps the state department of education could have a card of its own that proves the person is a high school graduate. Maybe charge $50 or $100 for it and put the profit towards education.
Or a cheaper and quicker version: when you walk across the stage to get your HS diploma, someone slips one of those tyvek bar wristbands on your wrist. 8-)
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Edited for your option. Not sure I agree with your option but I could see an argument for no age with parent present.
Wisconsin currently allows bars/restaurants to serve "kids" under 21 booze if a parent is present.
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Wisconsin currently allows bars/restaurants to serve "kids" under 21 booze if a parent is present.
arms length
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Wisconsin currently allows bars/restaurants to serve "kids" under 21 booze if a parent is present.
Still? I remember this being the case when I was 14 at Capitol Grill visiting my sister but when I worked at Brothers they trained us that we were not to allow any exceptions based on this rule and I thought I recalled reading only a handful were still allowing it.
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Still? I remember this being the case when I was 14 at Capitol Grill visiting my sister but when I worked at Brothers they trained us that we were not to allow any exceptions based on this rule and I thought I recalled reading only a handful were still allowing it.
I am pretty sure it is at each bar/restaurant's discretion.
My experience is that it is rare for a City of Milwaukee bar to allow it. I thought it was only at the more corporate places, but I tried to buy Chick jr. an ice cream drink at Bryant's 3 weeks before her 21st birthday, and they weren't having it.
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I am pretty sure it is at each bar/restaurant's discretion.
My experience is that it is rare for a City of Milwaukee bar to allow it. I thought it was only at the more corporate places, but I tried to buy Chick jr. an ice cream drink at Bryant's 3 weeks before her 21st birthday, and they weren't having it.
Correct, it's up to the private establishment with the liquor license who they want to serve or not.