Zagoria: Basketball schools not inclined to form separate league right now

[GGGG]

http://zagsblog.com/articles/big-east-source-if-bleeding-stopped-here-the-basketball-schools-would-be-happy/

Football still helps too much on the revenue-generation side.

[The Process]

Yeah, right up until UCONN and Cincy screw us.  As the article said, there is a sense of "inevitability" about the all-basketball conference.  At what point does the danger of getting screwed outweigh the football dollars?  If we follow the dollars, what is the impact to MU when if/when we get screwed?

[MUfan12]

Exactly why I'm rooting for the dominoes to fall sooner rather than later. Once those two bolt, they can blow the thing up.

[tower912]

Hold the conference together and get maximum buyout money.    Hold onto the name.    It will be better if it is seen that A-10 schools are joining the BEast rather than the basketball-only BEast schools are going off to the A-10.    It is the inevitable endgame, but squeeze as much money as possible first.   

[real chili 83]

Hold the conference together and get maximum buyout money.    Hold onto the name.    It will be better if it is seen that A-10 schools are joining the BEast rather than the basketball-only BEast schools are going off to the A-10.    It is the inevitable endgame, but squeeze as much money as possible first.   

+1

[The Process]

Hold the conference together and get maximum buyout money.    Hold onto the name.    It will be better if it is seen that A-10 schools are joining the BEast rather than the basketball-only BEast schools are going off to the A-10.    It is the inevitable endgame, but squeeze as much money as possible first.   

So... Let's say that UCONN and Cincy are successful in jumping ship in the next few months. How much more squeezing is there to do? What is the tipping point here?

[🏀]

So... Let's say that UCONN and Cincy are successful in jumping ship in the next few months. How much more squeezing is there to do? What is the tipping point here?

UCONN and Cincy leaving have to be the tipping point, yeah?

[Knight Commission]

This article makes so sense to me...Im not buying it.

If the "source" is from a basketball only school, why the use of the word "they".  Sounds like a Big East league source to me.

How do the basketball schools know that the current conference would generate more revenue than a basketball conference? One, the Big east contract is in negotiations, and Two, noone has been negotiating the basketball only TV rights. I think the revenue will be close.

I think they are overemphasizing the conference tourney at MSG, as well...and that problem is easily solevable.
  

[Benny B]

So... Let's say that UCONN and Cincy are successful in jumping ship in the next few months. How much more squeezing is there to do? What is the tipping point here?

Presumably $10 Million x each remaining departure.  The tipping point is when Cincy & UCONN bolt, the league collects $20M ($30M if USF goes too), the conference votes to dissolve football, and the Big East lives on as basketball-only with a freshly inked check for $30M plus a fat annuity for the next 6 years after Louisville and Cincy face off in the NCAA title game this year.

[GGGG]

I don't think UConn and Cincy leave before July 1, 2013.

[Aughnanure]

UCONN and Cincy leaving have to be the tipping point, yeah?

We've been saying this team leaving or that leaving would be the tipping point for a long time. I'm getting worried that there isn't one and there's not enough leadership to recognize it when it does come.

[Aughnanure]

I don't think UConn and Cincy leave before July 1, 2013.

That would suck, cause does anyone think they're not leaving by 2016?

[GGGG]

It all depends on what the Big Ten and the SEC do and the trickle down from there.  I doubt the B10 is done though.

[The Process]

UCONN and Cincy leaving have to be the tipping point, yeah?

Not necessarily, but they are prominent and already tried to jump. So while a somewhat arbitrary point, it would be a pretty noticeable and impactful point if and when they leave.

[bilsu]

I believe TCU had to pay $5,000,000 because they backed out. I wonder if there is any penalty clause protecting the new additions, if the league disbands?

[Aughnanure]

I believe TCU had to pay $5,000,000 because they backed out. I wonder if there is any penalty clause protecting the new additions, if the league disbands?

Did they? I believe they got out of that one. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Tugg Speedman]

From the article ...

“If they do [form a Catholic league], they risk losing the conference label and then they risk losing the contact with Madison Square Garden for the tournament,” the source said. ”They don’t want to make a mistake by jumping out early and then not being able to get a pretty good TV deal, even though it’s going to be obviously much less on the basketball side.

“That’s why it’s a waiting game because they’re worried about if they did something collectively and tried to reform with others. It all goes around to the brand of the Big East and the Garden.”

This is exactly correct.  The name Big East and the MSG Tourney matter, and matter a lot.  It would be a huge mistake if they jumped without the name and tourney.

[Groin_pull]

From the article ...

“If they do [form a Catholic league], they risk losing the conference label and then they risk losing the contact with Madison Square Garden for the tournament,” the source said. ”They don’t want to make a mistake by jumping out early and then not being able to get a pretty good TV deal, even though it’s going to be obviously much less on the basketball side.

“That’s why it’s a waiting game because they’re worried about if they did something collectively and tried to reform with others. It all goes around to the brand of the Big East and the Garden.”

This is exactly correct.  The name Big East and the MSG Tourney matter, and matter a lot.  It would be a huge mistake if they jumped without the name and tourney.

Am I the only one who assumes there's an out-clause in that MSG contract? As the Big East sinks deeper and deeper, I have to believe MSG will take a very close look at dumping the Big East and getting into bed with the ACC.

Let's be honest. If you're MSG, what would you rather have? A semi-finals with Houston, Memphis, Marquette, and Temple....or UNC, Duke Syracuse, and Louisville?

[The Process]

Am I the only one who assumes there's an out-clause in that MSG contract? As the Big East sinks deeper and deeper, I have to believe MSG will take a very close look at dumping the Big East and getting into bed with the ACC.

Let's be honest. If you're MSG, what would you rather have? A semi-finals with Houston, Memphis, Marquette, and Temple....or UNC, Duke Syracuse, and Louisville?

Speaking of out clauses... and this ties into the other thread...

If there isn't an out clause (which likely is not the case, but let's just pretend for a moment for the sake of argument)... what if the basketball schools told UCONN and Cincy to go elsewhere as they've already indicated their strong desire to jump ship, rescinded the offers to the football schools that are coming in, and started to piece together the basketball conference discussed in the other thread?

1.  What do the bylaws state about kicking out programs or rescinding offers?  Would the BEAST have to pay them?
2.  Other than the UCONN/Cincy/etc exit fees (and that matter of the to-be-signed TV contract), is there anything that really prevents the BEAST from doing this?
3.  Would they be best suited to pulling this off after the ESPN/NBC/Public Access Cable contract is signed, provided this is before the football schools join the party and inevitably screw us and the basketball schools?

I know, totally pipe dream, but watching the conference carousel spinning makes me want to hurl out of dizziness.

[Tugg Speedman]

Am I the only one who assumes there's an out-clause in that MSG contract? As the Big East sinks deeper and deeper, I have to believe MSG will take a very close look at dumping the Big East and getting into bed with the ACC.

Let's be honest. If you're MSG, what would you rather have? A semi-finals with Houston, Memphis, Marquette, and Temple....or UNC, Duke Syracuse, and Louisville?

I thought the Garden was a place the Big East rented to hold their tourney.  And the Big East has that weekend in March rented for many years to come.

So, the Garden does not care of The Big East makes money, so long as the Big East's check clears is all the Garden cares about.

And to be specific, the Garden rented that weekend to the Big East.  So, if the non-basketball schools leave and lose the Big East name, that rental weekend goes to the owner of the Big East name.

Now if what I explained is correct, then their is no "out clause."

[The Equalizer]

Am I the only one who assumes there's an out-clause in that MSG contract? As the Big East sinks deeper and deeper, I have to believe MSG will take a very close look at dumping the Big East and getting into bed with the ACC.

Let's be honest. If you're MSG, what would you rather have? A semi-finals with Houston, Memphis, Marquette, and Temple....or UNC, Duke Syracuse, and Louisville?

I doubt there's an "out clause".  But there is probably already a right of first refusal with someone--A10 or ACC most likely--to take over that weekend if the Big East ceases to exist.

The basketball teams really have no good options

1.  The basketball teams could vote to blow up the conference--but then nobody gets the Big East name, nobody gets the NCAA revenue, the automatic bid goes away. . . and MSG as a tournament site is probably already contractually obligated to another league and gone both the new basketball and new foootball league.

2.  The basketball teams could leave, but they'd have to pay $5 million each and then the Big East name, accumlated conference tournament units, automatic bid and contract with MSG would stay with the football teams.

3.  The football teams could leave--but seems unlikely.  First, they'd have to pay $10 million each.  Second, why would they?  Aside from possibly UConn and Cincy, most of them have no better options--serioulsy, running back to CUSA?), and they certanly aren't going to mind being in a basketball confrence with MU, GU, VU, etc. 

[chr31ter]

Just a thought...

As long as the Basketball schools have the 2/3rds majority, couldn't they vote to stop offering football as a Conference sport, thereby forcing UConn and Cincy, etc. to go elsewhere?

[Lennys Tap]

Just a thought...

As long as the Basketball schools have the 2/3rds majority, couldn't they vote to stop offering football as a Conference sport, thereby forcing UConn and Cincy, etc. to go elsewhere?

I think the idea is to have them leave voluntarily and collect the exit fee.

[JoBo2756]

Has anyone actually seen the contracts for schools joining, the contract between MU and the Big East (can't call it the BEAST anymore... sorry) or the conference Bylaws?

Further, if we do get our hands on the contract can any of the lawyers on this board go through and actually lay out the possible scenarios?

Unless this happens, all of the above isn't really knowable (think that's a word). It's unlikely that someone will actually do any of this because it would take a ton of time and if you were talented enough to lay it out for the laymen, you time would be worth thousands of dollars. In my business, we pay out contract lawyers $510 an hour...

So unless someone can get these materials and has the Saturday and Sundays to actually do this, we'll never know.

Just my POV.

[honkytonk]

I thought the Garden was a place the Big East rented to hold their tourney.  And the Big East has that weekend in March rented for many years to come.

So, the Garden does not care of The Big East makes money, so long as the Big East's check clears is all the Garden cares about.

And to be specific, the Garden rented that weekend to the Big East.  So, if the non-basketball schools leave and lose the Big East name, that rental weekend goes to the owner of the Big East name.

Now if what I explained is correct, then their is no "out clause."

Bahhhhhhh!!!! You have definitely never lived in NYC. "Paying rent" is totally unacceptable. You think Dolan is cool with hosting a craptastic tournament so long as "the check clears?" We're talking about NYC. Brand recognition goes a hell of a lot further than some rent check.    Jeebus.

[JoBo2756]

Bahhhhhhh!!!! You have definitely never lived in NYC. "Paying rent" is totally unacceptable. You think Dolan is cool with hosting a craptastic tournament so long as "the check clears?" We're talking about NYC. Brand recognition goes a hell of a lot further than some rent check.    Jeebus.

Referring to Timothy Dolan, Archbishop of NY? I didn't know he had a say in this.

[honkytonk]

Referring to Timothy Dolan, Archbishop of NY? I didn't know he had a say in this.

Or James Dolan, Executive Chairman of The Madison Square Garden Company....nevermind other responsibilities. 

[Aughnanure]

Couldn't the Basketball Schools just pass laws to anger the football schools?

-Mandatory revenue sharing, meaning the bball schools get the same TV dollars as all the others
-Unfavorable divisions or pods
-Ridiculously high exit fee
-Requirements for spending money on basketball, lacrosse
-Altering where the money from NCAA credits goes (i.e., to who won them)

Feel free to add other ideas, but I think an agreement that allows the football schools to leave without having a financial penalty could be made. There just has to be the incentive to release the grip.

[JoBo2756]

Or James Dolan, Executive Chairman of The Madison Square Garden Company....nevermind other responsibilities. 

Gotcha. Well if they have a contract, it doesn't matter until the contract is up. The checks will need to clear.

[Warriors10]

Would we have to keep the crap schools we added though?  Tough to "kick out" schools if you want to keep the BE name and they are in the BE.

[Tugg Speedman]

Couldn't the Basketball Schools just pass laws to anger the football schools?

-Mandatory revenue sharing, meaning the bball schools get the same TV dollars as all the others
-Unfavorable divisions or pods
-Ridiculously high exit fee
-Requirements for spending money on basketball, lacrosse
-Altering where the money from NCAA credits goes (i.e., to who won them)

Feel free to add other ideas, but I think an agreement that allows the football schools to leave without having a financial penalty could be made. There just has to be the incentive to release the grip.

Why kick out the football schools? 

The BE, as it stands now is the seven catholic basketball schools, uconn, Cincy, Memphis, Temple and a bunch of football schools that are not very good at basketball.

If conference realignment stops here (which it probably won't), this is a good basketball conference, certainly on Par with the current makeup of the ACC.

Don't blow it up until it needs to be blown up.

[Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup]

Why kick out the football schools? 

The BE, as it stands now is the seven catholic basketball schools, uconn, Cincy, Memphis, Temple and a bunch of football schools that are not very good at basketball.

If conference realignment stops here (which it probably won't), this is a good basketball conference, certainly on Par with the current makeup of the ACC.

Don't blow it up until it needs to be blown up.

So Argument number 1 is that the conference carousel that produced this "good basketball conference on par with the current makeup of the ACC" is not yet over, so really, it's fair to say that the current state of the Big East Basketball league is the best it will be.

Argument number 2 is that there's 11 schools that are good at basketball, which is fine, but they're still schools with disparate interests. Think Cincy or Memphis wouldn't jump ship immediately if the Big 12 or ACC came calling? I fail to see why MU needs to associate itself with the UCFs, Houstons, SMUs, Tulanes, and God knows what other dreck from Conference USA that the Big East decides to bring along. This was palatable when we still got to play Louisville, Syracuse, Notre Dame, and Pittsburgh. Now we're playing all that crap for the right to play Memphis and Temple?

If football drives the bus, and you don't like where the bus is going, time to get your own bus and take a different road.

[bilsu]

I just think we stand pat and hope the ACC blows up. They are at risk right now, especailly if Maryland can beat the $50 million buyout fee. Maryland did not vote for it and I can see a judge/arbitrator ruling that the fee is too high.

[Benny B]

1) Big East conference bylaws, contracts, etc. are private... but like all private documents, a lawsuit can change all of that.  Enter WVU vs. Big East and voila... public record.  http://news.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/2011/11/04/bigeast_v_wvu_110411.pdf (scroll to pg. 12).

2) The $10M exit fee was effected upon the announcement that Naval Academy is joining the conference; however, it remains $5M for non-football schools.

3) A school merely needs to "attempt to withdraw from the conference" in order to be terminated via a 75% vote of the members.

4) The conference can be dissolved via a 2/3 majority vote.  If so dissolved, the assets of the conference (including the name, tournament shares, etc.) are liquidated/allocated by a simple majority vote of the members present at such meeting.

5) Once a member has delivered intent to withdraw, it loses its vote on the Board of Directors.

6) Football members can take action regarding football (e.g. distribution of football revenue, BCS membership, adding football-only members, etc.) by a simple majority vote of football members.  However, in the event of a football-only membership addition, the non-football members of the conference can force a tie vote on the addition (regardless of how many votes are actually tallied) simply by voting unanimously against said addition.

7) Although Tulane, Memphis, etc. have been voted in, a member does not become a member until it "competes within the Conference in each varsity sport sponsored by the conference for which the Member has a Division I team."  Therefore, Memphis and Tulane do not currently have a seat on the Board of Directors (i.e. a voting interest).

What does this mean?  My interpretation:

* Cincy, UCONN & USF currently control everything football-related within the conference as they are the only "participating" football schools that have not announced their intent to leave the conference.

* With GTown, SJU, Prov, MU, SHU, DePaul & Nova, the conference has only 10 voting members total at this juncture.

* If Cincy & USF voted to add Northern Illinois as football only, they can do so on their own provided that the basketball schools are not unanimous against such a move.  If Cincy & USF voted in favor and everyone else voted against, then the vote is deemed a tie and the members must work together in good faith to resolve the issues raised by adding NIU.

* Right now, the basketball members have the votes necessary to dissolve the conference.  They could then vote to sell the Big East name, TV rights, and other assets to a new, to-be-formed conference by a simple majority vote.  They do not, however, have the votes necessary to dismiss a member.

* Despite an overall majority, the basketball members cannot take any action regarding football.  All football matters are within control of the football schools.  Therefore, the conference cannot simply elect to discontinue football without a majority vote of football members.

[Aughnanure]

1) Big East conference bylaws, contracts, etc. are private... but like all private documents, a lawsuit can change all of that.  Enter WVU vs. Big East and voila... public record.  http://news.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/2011/11/04/bigeast_v_wvu_110411.pdf (scroll to pg. 12).

2) The $10M exit fee was effected upon the announcement that Naval Academy is joining the conference; however, it remains $5M for non-football schools.

3) A school merely needs to "attempt to withdraw from the conference" in order to be terminated via a 75% vote of the members.

4) The conference can be dissolved via a 2/3 majority vote.  If so dissolved, the assets of the conference (including the name, tournament shares, etc.) are liquidated/allocated by a simple majority vote of the members present at such meeting.

5) Once a member has delivered intent to withdraw, it loses its vote on the Board of Directors.

6) Football members can take action regarding football (e.g. distribution of football revenue, BCS membership, adding football-only members, etc.) by a simple majority vote of football members.  However, in the event of a football-only membership addition, the non-football members of the conference can force a tie vote on the addition (regardless of how many votes are actually tallied) simply by voting unanimously against said addition.

7) Although Tulane, Memphis, etc. have been voted in, a member does not become a member until it "competes within the Conference in each varsity sport sponsored by the conference for which the Member has a Division I team."  Therefore, Memphis and Tulane do not currently have a seat on the Board of Directors (i.e. a voting interest).

What does this mean?  My interpretation:

* Cincy, UCONN & USF currently control everything football-related within the conference as they are the only "participating" football schools that have not announced their intent to leave the conference.

* With GTown, SJU, Prov, MU, SHU, DePaul & Nova, the conference has only 10 voting members total at this juncture.

* If Cincy & USF voted to add Northern Illinois as football only, they can do so on their own provided that the basketball schools are not unanimous against such a move.  If Cincy & USF voted in favor and everyone else voted against, then the vote is deemed a tie and the members must work together in good faith to resolve the issues raised by adding NIU.

* Right now, the basketball members have the votes necessary to dissolve the conference.  They could then vote to sell the Big East name, TV rights, and other assets to a new, to-be-formed conference by a simple majority vote.  They do not, however, have the votes necessary to dismiss a member.

* Despite an overall majority, the basketball members cannot take any action regarding football.  All football matters are within control of the football schools.  Therefore, the conference cannot simply elect to discontinue football without a majority vote of football members.

Interesting. Don't like that the basketball schools have NO say in football, and don;t have the power to add a basketball-only either. They've been pushed around for so long by football and soon could be pushed around by the likes of UCF, SMU and Tulane.

[Aughnanure]

Why kick out the football schools?  

The BE, as it stands now is the seven catholic basketball schools, uconn, Cincy, Memphis, Temple and a bunch of football schools that are not very good at basketball.

If conference realignment stops here (which it probably won't), this is a good basketball conference, certainly on Par with the current makeup of the ACC.

Don't blow it up until it needs to be blown up.

Not saying do it right now. But I'm assuming 1 of UConn or Cincy will be gone by March, and likely both. So, in basketball, the league becomes The Catholic 7 + Memphis, Temple....and? Houston? I think that's the breaking point. The A10 had Temple and UMass in their basketball league and I could see the Catholic schools thinking "Hey, why couldn't we do that?"So they could make a push to split in the idea of holding onto Memphis and Temple's basketball programs. Maybe even think about UMass too and 1 other football school that loves bball.

I don't personally think Memphis or Temple would sacrifice their football programs for that, but the Catholics will be looking at the landscape and wondering what is the benefit of the league anymore...and start thinking they could have the strongest part of their basketball league and keep their power too, thru selling Temple and Memphis on this league and/or adding Xavier, Butler, Richmond, Creighton, St. Louis, VCU, Dayton.

[GGGG]

Not saying do it right now. But I'm assuming 1 of UConn or Cincy will be gone by March, and likely both.

To where?  Unless the Big Ten announces something soon, I don't think that happens....and I don't think the Big Ten is going to announce anything soon.

[M@RQUETTEW@RRIORS]

To where?  Unless the Big Ten announces something soon, I don't think that happens....and I don't think the Big Ten is going to announce anything soon.

Big Ten will wait till after the bowl games to announce its final 2 teams.  That could cause a domino affect with Uconn and Cincy ending up in the ACC or Big 12.

[Aughnanure]

To where?  Unless the Big Ten announces something soon, I don't think that happens....and I don't think the Big Ten is going to announce anything soon.

Big Ten aint staying at 14. Neither is the SEC. They have publicly said they don;t like the scheduling issues. Blood is in the water. There is NO benefit to waiting, what, another year? Why? They'll soon know the buyout that MD will have to pay (not $50 million) and then it will release the floodgates. The money the B1G and SEC are getting is scaring the crap out the ACC teams, and they have no one they can add outside of ND to close that gap (and ND alone probably wouldn't close it entirely anyways).

[Aughnanure]

Big Ten will wait till after the bowl games to announce its final 2 teams.  That will cause a domino affect with Uconn and Cincy ending up in the ACC or Big 12.

Fixed, and that would be the absolute smallest ripple that such a move would make. And don't count out UConn to the B1G.

[GGGG]

OK...we will see.  I don't think it is going to happen though.

[Aughnanure]

OK...we will see.  I don't think it is going to happen though.

Curious, do you have a reason? Or do you just think we're going into one of those dead periods for a year before it starts up again?

We need it to happen soon, but I'm fearful of the ability for this crap to be dragged out too.

[GGGG]

I think the Big Ten has been talking to schools for awhile.  Those schools include UNC, UVa, Georgia Tech and Maryland....and others  I think Maryland finally took the bait...they have an Iowa-guy as President, need $$$, a potential legal-out for the full exit fee, and a booster willing to pay it.  The Big Ten needed to match up with someone and Rutgers made the most sense.  I am not sure those circumstances will be replicated soon with other schools...because I don't think the exit fee issue will be finalized anytime soon.

[Aughnanure]

Is the money not going to get bigger? Are schools not going to need more money suddenly? I actually think universities have an idea of what they will pay. I'm guessing somewhere in the 20s, based on how much every other exit fee has gone down. There are many different ways to argue this legally, and I don't think the fact that Maryland voted against it will be the main one used. Maryland still has to abide the laws of the league, as they've legally signed over some of that autonomy by being a member. The fact that they voted against one, of potentially many, decisions the conference has made over time does not remove their requirement to abide by them. What is up for legal discussion more so, is the size of the fee, which is extremely punitive. And once one has set a precedent...boom.

I also disagree that Rutgers was just a "match." Laugh all you want about their inadequacies athletically, Rutgers is probably the most desirable addition from the Big East since 2003. Their academics are phenomenal, population-size strong, recruiting potential-great, alumni-huge, and own their own state. I thought Rutgers fit better than Maryland actually (and I think Maryland is pretty great too). People don't realize how big Penn St is in Jersey.

But I also just don't see these schools with proud athletic programs standing to watch Iowa make $250 million more than them over 15 years. Even if they have to pay $50 million, it's worth it (and it's not like it's a big $50 million check at once, a lot of it is withholding of TV money)

It might not be soon (i.e., within 6 months) - my fear -  but it will happen

[bilsu]

I think Maryland has a much better argument that the $50 million is unreasonable having voted against it. It is hard to argue that, if you voted for it. Once maryland wins in arbitration it will lower it for all the ACC schools and the flood gates will open.