Texas Tech Opening

[NavinRJohnson]

I think I could pick 20 to 30 starting calibre players off that list of 300 transfers that became available at about the same time Buzz got the head coaching job.

Then let's see 'em. You have the list right there. Now pick out for me the 20-30 guys that are starting caliber BE players, and would have a reasonable interest and/or ability to come to MU.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Then let's see 'em. You have the list right there. Now pick out for me the 20-30 guys that are starting caliber BE players, and would have a reasonable interest and/or ability to come to MU.

I'd like a shot at this, too....can I pick folks like Roseboro and Newbill, since they signed NLI's and were certainly deemed to be Big East caliber players by this administration?   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Here's some news for you Chicos - just because you make one statemednt about "I thought Buzz should be Big East COY last year," but have a litany of posts that degrade/question his recruiting and coaching..well...the majority usually speaks to somjeones beliefs.

And as for IF's about the Final Four team...the sooner you get it through your dense head, the better - that:  IF D-Wade wasn't on the  Final Four Team..MU is no better than a 1st round NCAA tam.  DWAde made life extremely easy for Diener, Novak and Jackson.  The guy is a Top 5 player of our generation.  Period.  Diener, Novak and Jackson don't get the looks without DWade on the floor. 

Wade was incredible, no one ever said differently.  Did I ever say we would get to the Final Four without Wade?  Nope.  Did I say we would get to the Final Four because of Wade? Nope...you did.  Basketball requires a lot of pieces.  Of course MU is not a Final Four team without Wade, no one ever said differently. However, MU wasn't a Final Four team without Novak, Diener, RJAX and others as well...that's the part you keep forgetting.

I actually complemented Buzz a ton last year and the year prior, you just continue to ignore it.  I also came down on him last year and the year before. I'm an equal opportunity evaluator.  That's the difference. You're a sunshine blower, a cheerleader, smitten lover.  I'm not...thus I can evaluate on both ends of the spectrum.

[NavinRJohnson]

How about the best facilities in the country, strong fan support and top 10 attendance, a school where the team isn't playing 2nd fiddle to football, outstanding heritage, visibility to NBA players and scouts, 3-4 straight years of 10+ wins in the Big East and NCAA appearances, and most importantly A TON OF STARTING MINUTES OVER THE NEXT TWO SEASONS.

So, Buzz Williams should be expected to do it, while took your hero Tom Crean 3 years to have any kind of real recruiting success at one of the premier basketball schools in the country, in a state with significantly more talent. The difference? Indiana has stunk out loud the last three years, while MU has been to the NCAA tournament.Of course the other difference is that you acknowledge the bad hand Tom Crean was handed by his predecessor, but not the one Buzz Williams inherited (relative to incoming recruits/pipeline).

SJS complains that he would rather suck now in exchange for having different players here through 2012-13. To what end? Can you guaranty we would be better down the road? Are we going to be any worse off in 2012-2013 or after because we had those 4 Jucos? Or, could we actually be better and have been to the NCAA tournament every year in the interim? Who knows? Nobody. As I said earlier, at some point, we were gonna pay in the W/L columns for the sins of Buzz's predecessor. I would suggest that is probably happening now, and we will still manage to make the NCAA tournament.

Of course SJS goes on to say that he would rather have D1 transfers as an alternative. Well guess what, unless they were magically transferring with 4 years remaining, they would all be gone by 2012-2013 as well. As usual his lengthy diatribes come out of both sides of his mouth.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Navin, why would we suck now?   Are you saying teams led by mostly freshmen can't get it done?  Weird, in 2006 an MU team sure did.  Weird.

The "sins of Buzz's predecessor"...that's a classic one.  Ironic since Buzz has also been the beneficiary of the "miracles of Buzz's predecessor"...ironic (not really) that you ignore that part.

Brand new practice center, 4 top 10 scorers in MU history on the roster, two NBA players, guaranteed NCAA berth your first year on the job, Big East conference, etc....damn those "sins of the predecessor".

I wonder when that excuse is done being played...is it year 2018 or 2019?

[NavinRJohnson]

Navin, why would we suck now?   Are you saying teams led by mostly freshmen can't get it done?  Weird, in 2006 an MU team sure did.  Weird.

The "sins of Buzz's predecessor"...that's a classic one.  Ironic since Buzz has also been the beneficiary of the "miracles of Buzz's predecessor"...ironic (not really) that you ignore that part.

How did I ignore that smart guy? You're the one who seems to know it all, so you tell me how I ignored that part.

This discussion is almost entirely relative relative to how Buzz handled his first recruiting class (maybe first two). The sins of his predecessor are leaving, and leaving Buzz to have to fill 80% of the roster over the following 18 months. That's it. People like SJS (and others I won't name) are wringing their hands about Juco players and how that was the wrong thing to do. That he should have just gone out and found BE starting caliber HS players to fill out the roster, or all those BE starting caliber D1 transfers who were just waiting by the phone. Had he done that, do you not suspect we would have had a couple of rough years with freshmen and sophs learning how to play?

I am suggesting that the Jucos helped bridge the gap, and kept MU competitive in the BE while that unavoidable roster turnover after Crean's departure followed by the departure of McNeal, Matthews, and James. At some point that was going to catch up with MU. Same would have held true had Crean stayed and for some reason in April of 2008 5 players/recruits suddenly up and left, followed by 3 seniors the following year. Do you deny that?

That's it. So please, tell me how any of that ignores the miracles of his predecessor? Weird.

BTW, how long was Tom Crean recruiting those Freshmen that got it done in 2006 before they committed? I hope the answer is that he started in mid-April of 2004 after he was named head coach, and a bunch of scholarships suddenly opened up, otherwise your suggestion is just plain stupid. Then again, maybe your position is that Buzz should have been able to attract a class of uncommitted players as good as those three guys in that short amount of time. You know, like Crean was able to do when he got to Ind...nevermind.

[NavinRJohnson]

I wonder when that excuse is done being played...is it year 2018 or 2019?

Are you talking about MU or Indiana?

[Pakuni]

Navin, why would we suck now?   Are you saying teams led by mostly freshmen can't get it done?  Weird, in 2006 an MU team sure did.  Weird.

Never mind that senior who was unanimous first team All-Big East behind the curtain.
(ohh ... ohh ... but I said mostly...).

[ChicosBailBonds]

Are you talking about MU or Indiana?

I thought this was a Marquette board, so we're talking about Marquette.  But since you asked, I'd expect IU's excuses stop next year.  Considering they had a walk on and a 1.4 PPG scorer coming back his first year...3 years of excuses seems right.

Now, compare that to our situation.....do you think by year 3 the excuses should still be going on?  Really...are they the same situations?  You're smarter than that.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Never mind that senior who was unanimous first team All-Big East behind the curtain.
(ohh ... ohh ... but I said mostly...).

Yup, a wonderful player....wish we had him now.  I seem to recall Dominic James (freshman) and Jerel McNeal (freshman) also made All Big East honors.  Matthews suffered an injury and only played in 2/3 of MU's games that year. 

[Lennys Tap]

I don't grant Buzz any grace....wow....you might want to go back to last year when I said he should be up for BE COY of the award.  Hmmm, oh that's right...you ignore those types of things.  If I may borrow some of your words..."It is absolutely amazing how much" you forget what other posters actually say when you're trying to build a faulty charge...keep it going.

You didn't "grant Buzz any grace" last year. With 4 starters gone and Cadougan hurt you thought we were gonna suck. You said if Buzz got us into the tournament he should be National Coach of the Year because you thought there was no chance. You ripped him often throughout the season and wrote his /our NCAA tournament obituary more than once. When we got into the tournament easily, you belittled the accomplishment by babbling on and on about a soft bubble which affected our status not at all.

Your original premise was NCAA 12 seed = National Coach of the Year. Well, he was an NCAA 6 seed. An honest person would have pounded the drum for the guy did this for the team he loved. After Buzz soared 24 spots over the "best in the country" bar you yourself set, what did you do? You moved the goalposts. Buzz hadn't done such a remarkable job afterall, and everyone but your pal 84 had grossly underestimated our talent. Dishonest? Sure. Hypocritical? You bet. But it fit neatly into your preconceptions and prejudices so who cares about the other stuff.

[Marquette84]

Then let's see 'em. You have the list right there. Now pick out for me the 20-30 guys that are starting caliber BE players, and would have a reasonable interest and/or ability to come to MU.

Since your'e changing arguments, I guess I've successfully demonstrated the nonsense that there were no transfers available.  

Of course, I know your game is to get me to identify anyone, and have you either question their skill, or hand wave them off by claiming they never would have considered MU.

But I'll play your game.  Of course, I've picked players who either attended a similar school, or who Buzz previously recruited--just so you can't wave them off.

Herb Pope--could have easily seen minutes with Burke leaving and Mbakwe transferring--and wound up at a similar (but lesser) school in the same league.  Gonzo was already on the firing line at Seton Hall. A Pittsburg kid who was considering Big East schools. You've gotta think that anyone with half a brain would have steered Pope to Buzz over Gonzo.

Jordan Crawford--landed at Xavier.  Any player willing to consider a Catholic northern-climate urban school would have at least considered MU, had there been interest.  And with lots of minutes at guard opening at exactly the time Crawford would become eligible, there were plenty of minutes for him.  And with Sean Miller already the hottest prospect in coaching, why jump from one coaching departure to another unless its your only option.

Cory Johnson--MU would have been a much better offer than Valpo.  Was a Freshman starter at Iowa State.  Caught up in a coaching change.  his 15 points/5 rpg would have been nice to have--certainly more than we got out of Liam McMorrow.

Wesley Johnson--got caught up in the same Iowa State coaching change as Johnson.  Texas kid.  He was recruited by Texas A&M (while Buzz was an assistant) and was recruited by MU before he signed with Iowa State. GIven the MU and Buzz connection, its not a stretch to think that we might have had a shot.

Elijah Millsap--another player straight from Buzz's neck of the woods from Grambling, LA.  Also recruited by Texas A&M while Buzz was there.  Originally signed with Louisiana Lafayette, transferred to UAB.  Have to figure that Buzz would have at least got him to entertain an offer.

[ChicosBailBonds]

BTW, how long was Tom Crean recruiting those Freshmen that got it done in 2006 before they committed? I hope the answer is that he started in mid-April of 2004 after he was named head coach, and a bunch of scholarships suddenly opened up, otherwise your suggestion is just plain stupid. Then again, maybe your position is that Buzz should have been able to attract a class of uncommitted players as good as those three guys in that short amount of time. You know, like Crean was able to do when he got to Ind...nevermind.

BTW, how long has Buzz been on the MU staff?  4 years now...as the lead recruiter and head coach....so using that same logic....nevermind

[NavinRJohnson]

Now, compare that to our situation.....do you think by year 3 the excuses should still be going on?  Really...are they the same situations?  You're smarter than that.

I never said they were the same situation, but I appreciate the words in my mouth.

So just so we're clear. Had Buzz not signed the Jucos and had signed lets say 4 players he could still get when hired from the class of 2008, and regular class of 4-5 players from the class of 2009, what are you suggesting would have been realistic expectations this season? I'd like to know. As I said yesterday, after his second year, there was not a single player from Tom Crean left on the roster. How exactly is that roster turnover Buzz Williams fault? Are you really suggesting that he should be expected to win in the Big East with a roster comprised almost entirely of Freshmen and Sophomores (who were uncommitted and available at the time he got the job)?

[NavinRJohnson]

BTW, how long has Buzz been on the MU staff?  4 years now...as the lead recruiter and head coach....so using that same logic....nevermind

How many available scholarships did they have in the few months before Crean decided to leave? Why would any available player even be considering MU at that time? he is to be expected to just jump in on a binch of 4 and 5 star recruits when 5 scholarships suddenly open up and get commitments?

[ChicosBailBonds]

You didn't "grant Buzz any grace" last year. With 4 starters gone and Cadougan hurt you thought we were gonna suck. You said if Buzz got us into the tournament he should be National Coach of the Year because you thought there was no chance. You ripped him often throughout the season and wrote his /our NCAA tournament obituary more than once. When we got into the tournament easily, you belittled the accomplishment by babbling on and on about a soft bubble which affected our status not at all.

Your original premise was NCAA 12 seed = National Coach of the Year. Well, he was an NCAA 6 seed. An honest person would have pounded the drum for the guy did this for the team he loved. After Buzz soared 24 spots over the "best in the country" bar you yourself set, what did you do? You moved the goalposts. Buzz hadn't done such a remarkable job afterall, and everyone but your pal 84 had grossly underestimated our talent. Dishonest? Sure. Hypocritical? You bet. But it fit neatly into your preconceptions and prejudices so who cares about the other stuff.

Weird, that's all preseason stuff you mention above....then this thing called THE SEASON happened.  Weird...I guess "grace" comes in the preseason only?  Odd and weird.

I didn't grant him any grace....hmmm....perhaps you can explain these House?  Thanks, I'll hang up and listen

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=17616.msg174984#msg174984


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=17356.msg171411#msg171411


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=12869.msg115112#msg115112


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15177.msg142884#msg142884


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15963.msg154742#msg154742


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15678.msg151238#msg151238


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14181.msg127258#msg127258  (here's a classic example of praise for Buzz but also a critique...you would view this post as 100% critique)


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=13394.msg119913#msg119913


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=13376.msg119923#msg119923



etc, etc, etc, etc.

[Marquette84]

So, Buzz Williams should be expected to do it, while took your hero Tom Crean 3 years to have any kind of real recruiting success at one of the premier basketball schools in the country, in a state with significantly more talent. The difference? Indiana has stunk out loud the last three years, while MU has been to the NCAA tournament.Of course the other difference is that you acknowledge the bad hand Tom Crean was handed by his predecessor, but not the one Buzz Williams inherited (relative to incoming recruits/pipeline).

What are you talking about?  In Crean's first recruiting class, he landed Merritt, ODB, and Wade. I'd call that real recruiting success. And it didn't take 3 years to land those players. 

SJS complains that he would rather suck now in exchange for having different players here through 2012-13.

Lie.

I said we could have had the same results that we CURRENTLY have with frosh and sophs instead of JUCOs.  We dudb;t need 9 jucos to fall from 5th to 9th. We gained no advantage by recruiting JUCOs.

All I'm saying is that we could have accomplished the same results without resorting to JUCOs--AND we'd have 3 more players returning next year to give us that much-needed experience.

To what end? Can you guaranty we would be better down the road? Are we going to be any worse off in 2012-2013 or after because we had those 4 Jucos?

Yes. 

Because we now have to replace 3 of our top 8 players from a 9th place team.   I would rather we had 3 more returning starters for next year with our current record, than 3 players leaving, and player with no real D1 experience to replace them.

Or, could we actually be better and have been to the NCAA tournament every year in the interim? Who knows?
Nobody. As I said earlier, at some point, we were gonna pay in the W/L columns for the sins of Buzz's predecessor. I would suggest that is probably happening now, and we will still manage to make the NCAA tournament.

I guess when you try and fix those sins by running off or failing to retain one entire claass, coupled with ill-fated attempts to replace them with with McMorrow, Roseboro, Maymon, Smith, and Newbill--yeah, there is a price to pay in the W/L column.

Of course SJS goes on to say that he would rather have D1 transfers as an alternative. Well guess what, unless they were magically transferring with 4 years remaining, they would all be gone by 2012-2013 as well. As usual his lengthy diatribes come out of both sides of his mouth.

In the last three years, we've seen 4 players leave MU alone with 4 years remaining--Taylor, Roseboro, Nick WIlliams and Newbill.  With 344 other D1 schools, maybe you underestimate the number of such 4-year players.

And of course we're talking about two years of recruiting, with most of those transfers coming with 3 years of eligibility.  Magic?  Nope--just Buzz's observation about 40% of players transferring--most of them after one season.

A D1 frosh transfer coming to MU in spring of 2008 with 3 years of eligibility left would play through 2011-12
And a D1 transfer in 2009 with 3 years left would play through 2012-13
And a D1 transfer in 2010 (like Jamil Wilson) with 3 year left will play through 2013-14.

What were you saying about a D1 transfers not being here past 2011-12?

[Lennys Tap]

Weird, that's all preseason stuff you mention above....then this thing called THE SEASON happened.  Weird...I guess "grace" comes in the preseason only?  Odd and weird.

I didn't grant him any grace....hmmm....perhaps you can explain these House?  Thanks, I'll hang up and listen

As your post point out, you ABSOLUTELY say he's COY if he just makes the tourney during the preseason. When it looks like we'll make it, you have him in the top 3, though you think Dixon will win. There are no posts of outrage from after the season when he greatly exceeded your conditions but was not named COY. Why's that Dyckes? I'll hang up and listen.


Oh, loved that you had to include neutral posts in your "Best of Buzz" anthology. Funny.

[NavinRJohnson]

Since your'e changing arguments, I guess I've successfully demonstrated the nonsense that there were no transfers available.

Not changing arguments. You brought up D1 transfers , I'm simply telling you why you're wrong.

Of course, I know your game is to get me to identify anyone, and have you either question their skill, or hand wave them off by claiming they never would have considered MU.

But I'll play your game.  Of course, I've picked players who either attended a similar school, or who Buzz previously recruited--just so you can't wave them off.

Herb Pope--could have easily seen minutes with Burke leaving and Mbakwe transferring--and wound up at a similar (but lesser) school in the same league.  Gonzo was already on the firing line at Seton Hall. A Pittsburg kid who was considering Big East schools. You've gotta think that anyone with half a brain would have steered Pope to Buzz over Gonzo.

The same Herb Pope who was shot in a fight, and was charged with a DUI within the 12 months prior. Yeah, its tough to figure how he ended up with Gonzo at SHU rather than MU. I'm sure guys like you wouldn't have been bitching had they signed a guy with this kind of baggage.  

Jordan Crawford--landed at Xavier.  Any player willing to consider a Catholic northern-climate urban school would have at least considered MU, had there been interest.  And with lots of minutes at guard opening at exactly the time Crawford would become eligible, there were plenty of minutes for him.  And with Sean Miller already the hottest prospect in coaching, why jump from one coaching departure to another unless its your only option.


LOL! Only option? You are funny. After flirting with Indiana, Sean Miller signed a 10-year extension with Xavier, whom coincidentally enough, Taylor also considered out of HS. BTW, how do you know MU didn't try to get him?


Cory Johnson--MU would have been a much better offer than Valpo.  Was a Freshman starter at Iowa State.  Caught up in a coaching change.  his 15 points/5 rpg would have been nice to have--certainly more than we got out of Liam McMorrow.

So Buzz should have anticipated Liam McMorrow's illness and not signed him. Got it. I guess Buzz should have also anticipated Dominic James' broken foot, and signed a 5-star PG to back him up.

BTW, its 14 ppg and 4 rpg in the Horizon league. You mean to tell me that is a BE starting caliber player?


Wesley Johnson--got caught up in the same Iowa State coaching change as Johnson.  Texas kid.  He was recruited by Texas A&M (while Buzz was an assistant) and was recruited by MU before he signed with Iowa State. GIven the MU and Buzz connection, its not a stretch to think that we might have had a shot.

He did consider Marquette early on in the process. He went to Syracuse. Oh well.  

Elijah Millsap--another player straight from Buzz's neck of the woods from Grambling, LA.  Also recruited by Texas A&M while Buzz was there.  Originally signed with Louisiana Lafayette, transferred to UAB.  Have to figure that Buzz would have at least got him to entertain an offer.

This one makes some sense, though again, how do you know Buzz didn't try?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Weird, that's all preseason stuff you mention above....then this thing called THE SEASON happened.  Weird...I guess "grace" comes in the preseason only?  Odd and weird.

I didn't grant him any grace....hmmm....perhaps you can explain these House?  Thanks, I'll hang up and listen

As your post point out, you ABSOLUTELY say he's COY if he just makes the tourney during the preseason. When it looks like we'll make it, you have him in the top 3, though you think Dixon will win. There are no posts of outrage from after the season when he greatly exceeded your conditions but was not named COY. Why's that Dyckes? I'll hang up and listen.


Oh, loved that you had to include neutral posts in your "Best of Buzz" anthology. Funny.

You do understand preseason...right?  Why is it so hard for you to admit that things change?  Post of outrage?  No, because at the end of the day other coaches did better and won the COY...the experts agreed with me and that's why they got it and Buzz didn't.  Doesn't mean Buzz failed, I thought he did a wonderful job.  

 Why is it so hard for you to admit you are wrong?  You said I never gave him any grace...sure I did.  Hell, the guy that did the audit said there were over 400 such posts he ranked as positive and less than 200 as negative toward Buzz.  

Your vast majority, never, always, and other ridiculous word plays of fiction just don't cut it when the real facts come out.  I hope when mentoring your clients you are a bit less absolute with your diction.

Some day we should talk about how derivatives have totally screwed over this country economically...maybe you'll have an opinion on that mess.  It might be enjoyable.  

[NavinRJohnson]

I said we could have had the same results that we CURRENTLY have with frosh and sophs instead of JUCOs.  We dudb;t need 9 jucos to fall from 5th to 9th. We gained no advantage by recruiting JUCOs.

All I'm saying is that we could have accomplished the same results without resorting to JUCOs--AND we'd have 3 more players returning next year to give us that much-needed experience.

You base that on what, considering that our three, maybe 4 best players are those juco's? Who are these HS players Buzz would have been able to land in his first 3 months that would have had us in the NCAA tournament this year and last if we had them instead of Butler, DJO, Crowder, and Buycks? Still looking for that list of 20-30 class o 2008 guys Buzz could have had a shot at in his first class.

BTW, where are you getting 9 jucos from?

[NavinRJohnson]

And of course we're talking about two years of recruiting, with most of those transfers coming with 3 years of eligibility.  Magic?  Nope--just Buzz's observation about 40% of players transferring--most of them after one season.

A D1 frosh transfer coming to MU in spring of 2008 with 3 years of eligibility left would play through 2011-12
And a D1 transfer in 2009 with 3 years left would play through 2012-13
And a D1 transfer in 2010 (like Jamil Wilson) with 3 year left will play through 2013-14.

What were you saying about a D1 transfers not being here past 2011-12?

OMG, why do I do this? You said...

I would MUCH rather have a .500 team this year dominated by frosh and sophs that will still be here in 2013 and 2014

Your words, not mine. those players would have been in Buzz's first two recruiting classes. Had Buzz gone with all of those available D1 transfers in 2008, and 2009 as you suggested as an alternative to HS players, which are preferable to jucos, explain to me how a single one of them would be here in 2013-2014.


Player with 3 years eligibility transfers in 2008. Is gone after the 2011-2012 season.
Player with 3 years eligibility transfers in 2009. Is gone after the 2012-2013 season.

That's what I was saying. Guess what...A juco who transfers in 2011 could be here in 2013-2014 as well.

[Marquette84]

Since your'e changing arguments, I guess I've successfully demonstrated the nonsense that there were no transfers available.

Not changing arguments. You brought up D1 transfers , I'm simply telling you why you're wrong.

Sure you are. 

You first suggested that Buzz was too new to know about D1 transfers available and demanded I give you a list.  Once I produced the list, instead of admitting that you were wrong and vastly underestimated the number of available transfers, you wanted to know which ones we could have landed.

Herb Pope--could have easily seen minutes with Burke leaving and Mbakwe transferring--and wound up at a similar (but lesser) school in the same league.  Gonzo was already on the firing line at Seton Hall. A Pittsburg kid who was considering Big East schools. You've gotta think that anyone with half a brain would have steered Pope to Buzz over Gonzo.

The same Herb Pope who was shot in a fight, and was charged with a DUI within the 12 months prior. Yeah, its tough to figure how he ended up with Gonzo at SHU rather than MU. I'm sure guys like you wouldn't have been bitching had they signed a guy with this kind of baggage.  

Straw man.

I think most here are more forgiving of the victim than the perpetrator.  And Buzz was already willing to consider Clark and Maymon--without such bitching. 

Jordan Crawford--landed at Xavier.  Any player willing to consider a Catholic northern-climate urban school would have at least considered MU, had there been interest.  And with lots of minutes at guard opening at exactly the time Crawford would become eligible, there were plenty of minutes for him.  And with Sean Miller already the hottest prospect in coaching, why jump from one coaching departure to another unless its your only option.


LOL! Only option? You are funny. After flirting with Indiana, Sean Miller signed a 10-year extension with Xavier, whom coincidentally enough, Taylor also considered out of HS. BTW, how do you know MU didn't try to get him?

How long did that 10 year extension last? 

Cory Johnson--MU would have been a much better offer than Valpo.  Was a Freshman starter at Iowa State.  Caught up in a coaching change.  his 15 points/5 rpg would have been nice to have--certainly more than we got out of Liam McMorrow.

So Buzz should have anticipated Liam McMorrow's illness and not signed him. Got it. I guess Buzz should have also anticipated Dominic James' broken foot, and signed a 5-star PG to back him up.

No.  Buzz should have anticipated that a player who wasn't dominating in a low-level Canadian conference wasn't Big East material.

BTW, its 14 ppg and 4 rpg in the Horizon league. You mean to tell me that is a BE starting caliber player?

I don't know.  But I think it compares rather favorably to 8.5 ppg and 6.5 rpg in the Ontario Colleges Athletic Association.

At least a Horizon team made the Final Four last year.   

Wesley Johnson--got caught up in the same Iowa State coaching change as Johnson.  Texas kid.  He was recruited by Texas A&M (while Buzz was an assistant) and was recruited by MU before he signed with Iowa State. GIven the MU and Buzz connection, its not a stretch to think that we might have had a shot.

He did consider Marquette early on in the process. He went to Syracuse. Oh well.  

[/quote]

So this whole debate started when you said: "Good grief. Let's ee the list of transfers from that year, and assume that starting on April 15th or whatever day it was, that Buzz would have been able to get to them, and convince them to come on board with a first year head coach they probably never met."

So in one post you claimed that Buzz was too new on the job to be expected to know about transferring players. 

Now you admit that you knew he was involved with Johnson?  How can this be?  You said he was too new on the job--didn't have enough time to get players to consider MU. 

So if we can get one such transfer to consider us, don't you suppose it's possible to have had more consider us?

Elijah Millsap--another player straight from Buzz's neck of the woods from Grambling, LA.  Also recruited by Texas A&M while Buzz was there.  Originally signed with Louisiana Lafayette, transferred to UAB.  Have to figure that Buzz would have at least got him to entertain an offer.

This one makes some sense, though again, how do you know Buzz didn't try?

I'm just putting the name out there as a player we would have had a chance with.  That's enough to prove my case. 

[Marquette84]

OMG, why do I do this? You said...

I would MUCH rather have a .500 team this year dominated by frosh and sophs that will still be here in 2013 and 2014

Your words, not mine. those players would have been in Buzz's first two recruiting classes. Had Buzz gone with all of those available D1 transfers in 2008, and 2009 as you suggested as an alternative to HS players, which are preferable to jucos, explain to me how a single one of them would be here in 2013-2014.

Player with 3 years eligibility transfers in 2008. Is gone after the 2011-2012 season.
Player with 3 years eligibility transfers in 2009. Is gone after the 2012-2013 season.

That's what I was saying. Guess what...A juco who transfers in 2011 could be here in 2013-2014 as well.

After 3 years and five JUCOs in an ill-fated attempt to "balance" classes, we're no better off than had we just gone after the type of frosh we were getting since joining the big East.   

The problem is you're trying to merge two different arguments.

Someone originally said Buzz was forced to take JUCOs to balance the classes--I said he could have done it with D1 transfers as well.  End of that argument.

But then I went on--separate argument--to say that we were wrong to fixate on balancing the classe.  After three years of recruiting JUCOs in an attempt to "balance" the classes, we have a .500 team dominated by junior and senior JUCOs.  I think we could have achieved the same results this year had we landed true freshmen instead of every one of those JUCOs.

And from this year's class, Crowder will be gone after 2012.  A frosh would have been here through 2014.

[cheebs09]

How many D-1 transfers do you want though? They have to sit out a year. With injuries last year to Cadougan and Otule, it would be tough to have another guy or two sitting out. Also, we had Maymon leave. That would be cutting it pretty thin. Yes, Maymon might not have been surprising, but Reggie Smith wasn't an obvious choice, so it can happen. That's one of the things that makes JUCOs an attractive option. They don't have to sit out a year.

Also, as far as the D-1 transfer list you provided, just because you list them doesn't mean they are viable options. Who knows what they were looking for in a school? It is a two way street. Buzz may have pursued a few of those guys and they wanted no part of MU.

When trying to rebuild a team (post Amigos that's what Buzz was facing with the lack of an 07 class), I don't know if D-1 transfers are the way to go. I feel they are for more established teams. For example, we have a bit more stability, so taking Wilson made more sense. Hansbrough was a very successful transfer and he walked into a team with a bunch of juniors and seniors.