Texas Tech Opening

[ChicosBailBonds]

Who's next?

Sidney Lowe at NC State?  Hewitt at Georgia Tech?  Capel at Oklahoma?  Crean at IU?

[NavinRJohnson]

As I said in another topic, a down year (or two) was almost unavoidable given the lack of incoming talent Buzz inherited. At some point those chickens were going to come home to roost. If he was able to weather the storm with JuCos, and this year (and perhaps even next year), was that year, then that's pretty damn good considering we are likley to make the tournament. Had he passed on the JuCos and simply went with HS players, last year would have been bad, this year would have been bad, and who knows about next year given that he had to recruit almost from scratch when he got here.

People bitch that we aren't very good, and point to the Juco players as a problem, but something tells me the same people would have been bitching last year and this year as well when we were going 6-12 in the BE, had Buzz not brought those guys in. Things would likley be looking good for next year, but at some point the piper had to be paid for the empty recruiting cupboard when Crean left. If that payment is taking place now and the trajectory begins to go back up, I would say the guy did one helluva job.

[Dawson Rental]

Who's next?

Sidney Lowe at NC State?  Hewitt at Georgia Tech?  Capel at Oklahoma?  Crean at IU?

Those first two look good.  No idea what the buzz is at Oklahoma.  Crean, absolutely not.  They've had a hard time since they had to boot Bobby, and Crean has finally greased up the recruiting pipeline.  They'd be complete idiots to can Crean now that he's finally up to snuff.

[Dawson Rental]

As I said in another topic, a down year (or two) was almost unavoidable given the lack of incoming talent Buzz inherited. At some point those chickens were going to come home to roost. If he was able to weather the storm with JuCos, and this year (and perhaps even next year), was that year, then that's pretty damn good considering we are likley to make the tournament. Had he passed on the JuCos and simply went with HS players, last year would have been bad, this year would have been bad, and who knows about next year given that he had to recruit almost from scratch when he got here.

People bitch that we aren't very good, and point to the Juco players as a problem, but something tells me the same people would have been bitching last year and this year as well when we were going 6-12 in the BE, had Buzz not brought those guys in. Things would likley be looking good for next year, but at some point the piper had to be paid for the empty recruiting cupboard when Crean left. If that payment is taking place now and the trajectory begins to go back up, I would say the guy did one helluva job.

+1  Buzz could have gone the route Crean went at Indiana, but the results would have pissed most posters on this board off.  AND there's no guarantee that we'd be looking as good for next year.

[nyg]

1) Hewitt at Georgia Tech

2) Lowe at NC State

3) Heath at South Florida

4) Davis at Providence

5) Pelphrey at Arkansas

Those are the possible, no way Crean gets canned.  

[NYWarrior]

1) Hewitt at Georgia Tech

2) Lowe at NC State

3) Heath at South Florida

4) Davis at Providence

5) Pelphrey at Arkansas

Those are the possible, no way Crean gets canned.  

Add Capel at OU ....

[Lennys Tap]

I may have misspoken a bit in my phrasing, but what I meant to say was that for Buzz to have juniors and seniors on the roster this year, he had to recruit JUCO kids. You can't blame Buzz's recruiting philosophy for not having 4-year players at this point in time when his first recruiting class is in its sophomore year. I'm all for having more 4-year players on the roster, and more players in their third and fourth years in Buzz's system, but it's simply not possible to achieve that without arriving at the fourth and fifth years of Buzz's tenure. Barring the original poster having access to a time machine Buzz can borrow...

Exactly. Buzz could have replaced two empty classes like TC (one Verdell Jones, one crappy senior transfer {to suck up to the kid's Dad} and one lousy JC guy who turned up ineligible). Wonder how the people going nuts about 9-9 under those difficult circumstances would feel had we opted for the blueprint that produced a 3-15 all alone in last place Big Ten team?

[mikem91288]

With Pat Knight getting fired from Texas Tech earlier today, what do you think the chances are that Buzz will go after that job getting back home? Could be a win win situation because I don't like the way MU's program is heading. MU is the highest funded program in the Big East and we are having troubles getting into the tournament. Enough of these JUCO transfers and let's get some 4 year talent. Look at PITT and ND, lots of seniors that have developed through that system (I know Hansbrough transferred in) but I think Buzz takes a hard look at this opening. Any thoughts?

You don't like the direction the program is heading right now? Yeah I hate scratching and clawwing our way into the NCAA tournament too, after playing the toughest schedule in MU history. I really hope we kill Providence tomorrow and Buzz leaves so we have a chance at Keno Davis after he gets fired. Come on people...

[ringout]

Disagree that it's "ignorant".  There are many ways to skin the cat.  St. John's next year is adding mostly high school kids, despite having 10 seniors leave this year.  Now, some will argue that going that route you set yourself up for too much inexperience...that's a defensible argument.  So is going the route they (SJU) went. Let's not forget that our own freshmen a few years ago did a wonderful job playing major minutes, starting, etc and got us to the NCAA tournament.   

It seems that a number of folks here make this argument about filling and balancing the classes with JUCOS as if it was the ONLY solution....it's not the ONLY solution but is often presented here as if it was.  It simply isn't.  The quantity is the other question.  Is the right mix 70% JUCO and 30% HS...is it 50% each...is it 30% to 70%? 

My bigger concern about his recruiting philosophy is more on the types of players vs all the JUCOs.  PG, shooters seem to be not quite as important as switchables in the body frame he has described in the past. 

If you have 10 seniors tp replace, you might as well start from scratch.  Buzz had a totally different situation.  He had holes in every class.  He could have canned all scholarships, and recruited like Lavin was able too, but some people would have squirmed

[MerrittsMustache]

If you have 10 seniors tp replace, you might as well start from scratch.  Buzz had a totally different situation.  He had holes in every class.  He could have canned all scholarships, and recruited like Lavin was able too, but some people would have squirmed

St. John's was also in a much worse position than MU when Lavin was hired. Buzz inherited a team that returned 4 starters who were one shot away from at least the Sweet 16. A steep drop-off from that would not have gone over very well at all.  Not to mention that Lavin is an established head coach who likely will have more leeway with boosters/administration than the no-name who was hired to coach MU.

[Marquette84]

I may have misspoken a bit in my phrasing, but what I meant to say was that for Buzz to have juniors and seniors on the roster this year, he had to recruit JUCO kids. You can't blame Buzz's recruiting philosophy for not having 4-year players at this point in time when his first recruiting class is in its sophomore year. I'm all for having more 4-year players on the roster, and more players in their third and fourth years in Buzz's system, but it's simply not possible to achieve that without arriving at the fourth and fifth years of Buzz's tenure. Barring the original poster having access to a time machine Buzz can borrow...

First, let's not ignore that Buzz was an assistant coach for the three players who would have been seniors this year.  None of those three left before learning that Buzz would get the head coaching job. They knew him. He knew them.  Let's not continue with the fiction that these players bolted on April 2nd out of uncertainty over who the next coach would be. They stuck around long enough to find out.

Second, Buzz was not limited to JUCOs if is goal was to balance the classes.  He could have sought out D1 transfers like ND did with Scott Martin and Ben Hansbrough. MU has had a good track record with D1 transfers considering how Maurice Acker and Robert Jackson worked out for us.  A D1 transfer would have both balanced the classes AND given us D1 experience.  

Third, there was no need to fixate on balancing the classes--we SHOULD have been in a position to land excellent HS talent that would be capable of starting as freshmen for a Big East team (i.e. players like the Amigos).  I would MUCH rather have a .500 team this year dominated by frosh and sophs that will still be here in 2013 and 2014, rather than one dominated by JUCOs that will all be gone by 2012.

Fourth, we know Buzz believes that 40% of freshmen will eventually transfer--loading up on Frosh in his first full season would have self-balanced over time AND given us a roster of seniors down the road.  Two years in, of the 7-man 2010 class, we have only 3 players left for next year--Erik Williams, Junior Cadougan and DJO.  And a maximum of two 4-year seniors out of seven recruits.  

[NavinRJohnson]

Second, Buzz was not limited to JUCOs if is goal was to balance the classes.  He could have sought out D1 transfers like ND did with Scott Martin and Ben Hansbrough.

Good grief. Let's ee the list of transfers from that year, and assume that starting on April 15th or whatever day it was, that Buzz would have been able to get to them, and convince them to come on board with a first year head coach they probably never met. Yeah, that can't miss.

Third, there was no need to fixate on balancing the classes--we SHOULD have been in a position to land excellent HS talent that would be capable of starting as freshmen for a Big East team (i.e. players like the Amigos).  I would MUCH rather have a .500 team this year dominated by frosh and sophs that will still be here in 2013 and 2014, rather than one dominated by JUCOs that will all be gone by 2012.

You mean like Vander Blue, Junior Cadougan, Jamail Jones, Erik Williams? Guys like that? How many more of them were out there that he would have had a serious shot at on 'short notice'? Or is your assertion that Buzz didn't even try to recruit HS players? Let's face it, John Wall wasn't going to come to Marquette. I don't disagree this would have been a decent route to go, but you and I both know that when we stunk on ice last year and this year, just as many people would have been bitching about that. Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, and DJO are legitimate BE players, and MU will be going to the NCAA tournament for the 6th (and probably 7th) consecutive year because they're here. that would not have been the case were they not.

Taking it a step further, when those guys are gone by 2012, who's gonna take their place? Perhaps excellent HS talent that is capable of starting as freshman for a Big East team? I guess we'll find out.

BTW, why exactly SHOULD we have been in a position to land excellent HS talent that would be capable of starting as freshmen for a Big East team?

[willie warrior]

Those first two look good.  No idea what the buzz is at Oklahoma.  Crean, absolutely not.  They've had a hard time since they had to boot Bobby, and Crean has finally greased up the recruiting pipeline.  They'd be complete idiots to can Crean now that he's finally up to snuff.

yeah, Crean is up to snuff--last in Big Tweleven last couple years?

[NotAnAlum]

Disagree that it's "ignorant".  There are many ways to skin the cat.  St. John's next year is adding mostly high school kids, despite having 10 seniors leave this year.  Now, some will argue that going that route you set yourself up for too much inexperience...that's a defensible argument.  So is going the route they (SJU) went. Let's not forget that our own freshmen a few years ago did a wonderful job playing major minutes, starting, etc and got us to the NCAA tournament.  

Chicos you are chosing to ignore a few key elements in your many way to skin the cat.  Lavin was a known comodity who didn't have to prove himself.  Remember Buzz had just had the door slammed in his face by Hurley and TT.  Do you think he might have been rightly concerned that would happen in his first recruiting class.  Second SJU had been sooo bad for sooo long suffering through a couple years of growing pains would have been fine (not even figuring in the support he'll bank from this years unexpected success).  I'm pretty sure if Buzz put up Providence type numbers last year and this year his job tenure would be very much in doubt.  Third I quess if you want to bank on recruiting 3 of the top 7 scorers in MU history in one class you could roll the dice.  As I recall the last time a coach did that it was Key, MacIlvane and Logeterman got chewed up pretty bad in C-USA.

[MUBurrow]

+1  Buzz could have gone the route Crean went at Indiana, but the results would have pissed most posters on this board off.  AND there's no guarantee that we'd be looking as good for next year.

+1. Plus Crean knew he had a larger grace period stepping into the IU job.  Everyone was tripping over themselves to talk about how it was a huge rebuilding job (rightfully so). No one saw MU that way, just sort of underlining Murs point about people being pissed if the program had "regressed" before Buzz's HS guys matured.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos you are chosing to ignore a few key elements in your many way to skin the cat.  Lavin was a known comodity who didn't have to prove himself.  Remember Buzz had just had the door slammed in his face by Hurley and TT.  Do you think he might have been rightly concerned that would happen in his first recruiting class.  Second SJU had been sooo bad for sooo long suffering through a couple years of growing pains would have been fine (not even figuring in the support he'll bank from this years unexpected success).  I'm pretty sure if Buzz put up Providence type numbers last year and this year his job tenure would be very much in doubt.  Third I quess if you want to bank on recruiting 3 of the top 7 scorers in MU history in one class you could roll the dice.  As I recall the last time a coach did that it was Key, MacIlvane and Logeterman got chewed up pretty bad in C-USA.

All fair points.  Doesn't change my opinion that 72 hours to decide could have been pushed to more than a week, he wasn't going anywhere...that's the crux of it for me.  The recruiting class was gone no matter what and it was naive to think otherwise.

[Marquette84]

Good grief. Let's ee the list of transfers from that year, and assume that starting on April 15th or whatever day it was, that Buzz would have been able to get to them, and convince them to come on board with a first year head coach they probably never met. Yeah, that can't miss.

How is that any different than landing Jimmy Butler or Liam McMorrow?  How in the world could Buzz have convinced them to come on board with a first year head coach they probably never met?

This is where you seem to have a bit of a logic problem in your argument.  You credit Buzz for being good enough to convince Butler and McMorrow to come to MU, but not good enough to recruit a D1 transfer or a HS senior.  

Regardless of what happend the first year, Buzz CERTAINLY should have been good enough by his second year.

I gotta love the way you swing wildly between declaring Buzz to be an outstanding recruite, then turning around and implying that he's an incompetent nincompoop who can't even figure out how introduce himself and connect with players looking to transfer--unless they're a JUCO or a Canadian player.

Not to mention that BUZZ WAS ALREADY RECRUITING FOR MARQUETTE AS CREAN'S ASSISTANT!!

Seriously, what the hell was Buzz doing flying around on MU's dime spending MU's recruiting budget for the previous season if he DIDN'T wind up with any connections with players and coaches he could tap into?

Are you seriously suggesting that Buzz was so utterly incompetent that after a full season recruiting for MU that he had to rely on five JUCO transfers?

For my part, I have significantly more more faith than you do in the ability of a first year head coach to land quality players.  O'Neill landed Key, McIlvaine, Logermann and transfers Stewart and Curry.  Or Crean who landed ODB, Wade, Merritt--all without resorting to going deep into the JUCO pipeline.

You mean like Vander Blue, Junior Cadougan, Jamail Jones, Erik Williams? Guys like that? How many more of them were out there that he would have had a serious shot at on 'short notice'?

Short notice?  He was MU's main recruiter under Crean!!!  He damn well should have had connections across the country by that point.

If you think that Buzz had made no recruiting inroads during his time as Crean's assistant--what the hell WAS he doing?   Its not like Buzz just jumped into the MU job off some turnip truck.  He got the job largely because he was ALREADY WORKING FOR MU RECRUITING PLAYERS FOR US!!!

BTW, why exactly SHOULD we have been in a position to land excellent HS talent that would be capable of starting as freshmen for a Big East team?

How about the best facilities in the country, strong fan support and top 10 attendance, a school where the team isn't playing 2nd fiddle to football, outstanding heritage, visibility to NBA players and scouts, 3-4 straight years of 10+ wins in the Big East and NCAA appearances, and most importantly A TON OF STARTING MINUTES OVER THE NEXT TWO SEASONS.

[NavinRJohnson]

This is where you seem to have a bit of a logic problem in your argument.  You credit Buzz for being good enough to convince Butler and McMorrow to come to MU, but not good enough to recruit a D1 transfer or a HS senior.

Again, that list of D1 transfers that were available after Buzz took the job would be helpful.

Not to mention that BUZZ WAS ALREADY RECRUITING FOR MARQUETTE AS CREAN'S ASSISTANT!!

Gee, I must have forgotten about all of those open scholarships they had prior to Crean (and Taylor, and Nick Williams, and Chritopherson, and Mbakwe, and Hazel) leaving. Who were all of those uncommitted BE starting caliber players that maintained an interest in MU with no open scholarships, that he should have been able to sign in the Summer of 2008?

Regardless of what happend the first year, Buzz CERTAINLY should have been good enough by his second year.

You mean the year that he signed Williams, Cadougan, Maymon, and Mbao (and DJO)? That year? The class that was ranked in the Top 25? that class? Or perhaps we could look one more year down the line to the class containing Blue, Jones, Smith, Gardner and Wilson? Yep in that first year he made the choice to pass on BE starting caliber HS players, and BE starting caliber D1 transfers because he wanted to. They were all just sitting there waiting for his call, but he thought he'd go with the jucos instead.

If we assume he needed 3 or 4 guys, I will look forward to your list of 15-20 BE starting caliber HS players and/or BE starting caliber D1 transfers that were available after Buzz took the job, and after Taylor, Christopherson, etc. made the decision to leave to open up scholarships. It probably wouldn't hurt if they are better than Jimmy Butler too. All he has done is earn All Big East honors the last two years. Why would we want that guy around? He went to a Junior College! Gasp!

[Lennys Tap]

Again, that list of D1 transfers that were available after Buzz took the job would be helpful.

Not to mention that BUZZ WAS ALREADY RECRUITING FOR MARQUETTE AS CREAN'S ASSISTANT!!

Gee, I must have forgotten about all of those open scholarships they had prior to Crean (and Taylor, and Nick Williams, and Chritopherson, and Mbakwe, and Hazel) leaving. Who were all of those uncommitted BE starting caliber players that maintained an interest in MU with no open scholarships, that he should have been able to sign in the Summer of 2008?

C'mon Navin, if Buzz was any good he would have just crapped a couple of 5 stars the day he was hired.

[NavinRJohnson]

C'mon Navin, if Buzz was any good he would have just crapped a couple of 5 stars the day he was hired.

I know. I swear, sometimes its like trying to argue with award wining writer Jim Hague around here.

[NersEllenson]

I know. I swear, sometimes its like trying to argue with award wining writer Jim Hague around here.

There is ZERO sense trying to have a rationale debate with 84.  His nickname of Joanie Crean is well earned and deserved.  It is absolutely amazing how much grace he and Chicos afford Tom Crean, but Buzz??  NO WAY.  It would be so refreshing to see both of them grant Buzz the same latitude and grace they do Tom Crean.

Shoot, they've defended the hell out of Crean taking the 2004 and 2005 teams to the NIT (even with 2 traditional, Top 100, future NBA players).  Chicos has absolutely tried to assert that D-Wade was not the reason MU went on the Final Four run.  I'll never understand how losing a Robert Jackson can cause a team from being Final Four 1 year, and returning every other player the next year..and being NIT caliber..and losing in the first round..

[ChicosBailBonds]

There is ZERO sense trying to have a rationale debate with 84.  His nickname of Joanie Crean is well earned and deserved.  It is absolutely amazing how much grace he and Chicos afford Tom Crean, but Buzz??  NO WAY.  It would be so refreshing to see both of them grant Buzz the same latitude and grace they do Tom Crean.

Shoot, they've defended the hell out of Crean taking the 2004 and 2005 teams to the NIT (even with 2 traditional, Top 100, future NBA players).  Chicos has absolutely tried to assert that D-Wade was not the reason MU went on the Final Four run.  I'll never understand how losing a Robert Jackson can cause a team from being Final Four 1 year, and returning every other player the next year..and being NIT caliber..and losing in the first round..

Excuse me, but I have asserted you go to a Final Four as a team.  If Diener isn't on fire against Holy Cross, we don't go.  If Novak isn't on fired against Missouri, we don't go.  Jackson and Merrit against Pitt...etc, etc.  Of course Wade was paramount, but you make it sound like he was the ONLY reason...in fact you said it in the paragraph above.  You couldn't be more wrong. Collectively that TEAM went to the Final Four.  Not sure why this is so hard for you to understand, but apparently it is.

84's logic was just fine...you just don't like it and that's when you start crapping on people rather than actually REFUTING it.  What about his logic do you not care for?  Explain it. 

The irony of your comments about Crean and Buzz is staggering...again, how were they similar?  I've asked this time and time and time again and you have never answered this question...yet you continue to make this absurd comparison as if they were the same.  Why can't you just man up and admit you're wrong on this one.  They weren't the same by any standard.

I don't grant Buzz any grace....wow....you might want to go back to last year when I said he should be up for BE COY of the award.  Hmmm, oh that's right...you ignore those types of things.  If I may borrow some of your words..."It is absolutely amazing how much" you forget what other posters actually say when you're trying to build a faulty charge...keep it going.

[Jim Sawdust]

TT? Oh, that TT. I'll have to unlearn the reflexive reading of those letters as shorthand for the tanned one.

[NersEllenson]

Excuse me, but I have asserted you go to a Final Four as a team.  If Diener isn't on fire against Holy Cross, we don't go.  If Novak isn't on fired against Missouri, we don't go.  Jackson and Merrit against Pitt...etc, etc.  Of course Wade was paramount, but you make it sound like he was the ONLY reason...in fact you said it in the paragraph above.  You couldn't be more wrong. Collectively that TEAM went to the Final Four.  Not sure why this is so hard for you to understand, but apparently it is.

84's logic was just fine...you just don't like it and that's when you start crapping on people rather than actually REFUTING it.  What about his logic do you not care for?  Explain it. 

The irony of your comments about Crean and Buzz is staggering...again, how were they similar?  I've asked this time and time and time again and you have never answered this question...yet you continue to make this absurd comparison as if they were the same.  Why can't you just man up and admit you're wrong on this one.  They weren't the same by any standard.

I don't grant Buzz any grace....wow....you might want to go back to last year when I said he should be up for BE COY of the award.  Hmmm, oh that's right...you ignore those types of things.  If I may borrow some of your words..."It is absolutely amazing how much" you forget what other posters actually say when you're trying to build a faulty charge...keep it going.

Here's some news for you Chicos - just because you make one statemednt about "I thought Buzz should be Big East COY last year," but have a litany of posts that degrade/question his recruiting and coaching..well...the majority usually speaks to somjeones beliefs.

And as for IF's about the Final Four team...the sooner you get it through your dense head, the better - that:  IF D-Wade wasn't on the  Final Four Team..MU is no better than a 1st round NCAA tam.  DWAde made life extremely easy for Diener, Novak and Jackson.  The guy is a Top 5 player of our generation.  Period.  Diener, Novak and Jackson don't get the looks without DWade on the floor. 

[Marquette84]

Again, that list of D1 transfers that were available after Buzz took the job would be helpful.

http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=667122

And if I can find the list in about 5 seconds of google searching, I would think a well-networked professional with 20 years in the college coaching business just might have a slight edge in knowing what transfers might be coming available.

After all, even Buzz figured out that Jamil Wilson was coming available.  Unless your view is that Wilson just fell in Buzz's lap.

But here's the interesting thing.  What you would have us believe is that as Buzz himself was losing 3 players and 2 recruits to transfer . . .you are implying that it never occurred to him that other teams might be going through the exact same the same thing!!!  Even though Buzz can quote you chapter and verse of how many transfers take place every year!!!

"Gosh, we're losing players to transfer.  We'll just HAVE to take a JUCO now.  Because where in the world would I find a transferring player"

Not to mention that BUZZ WAS ALREADY RECRUITING FOR MARQUETTE AS CREAN'S ASSISTANT!!

Gee, I must have forgotten about all of those open scholarships they had prior to Crean (and Taylor, and Nick Williams, and Chritopherson, and Mbakwe, and Hazel) leaving. Who were all of those uncommitted BE starting caliber players that maintained an interest in MU with no open scholarships, that he should have been able to sign in the Summer of 2008?

Did you also forget about all those open scholarships we had prior to Newbill leaving?  Or is Wilson somehow different?

As I said, there are 200 to 300 D1 transfers a year.  Even Buzz will tell yout that 40% of all freshman transfer before their senior year. 

I think we would have been better off taking them rather than JUCOs.

If we assume he needed 3 or 4 guys, I will look forward to your list of 15-20 BE starting caliber HS players and/or BE starting caliber D1 transfers that were available after Buzz took the job, and after Taylor, Christopherson, etc. made the decision to leave to open up scholarships. It probably wouldn't hurt if they are better than Jimmy Butler too. All he has done is earn All Big East honors the last two years. Why would we want that guy around? He went to a Junior College! Gasp!

I think I could pick 20 to 30 starting calibre players off that list of 300 transfers that became available at about the same time Buzz got the head coaching job.