Florida, Florida, Florida

[Benny B]

EVEN IF he were out to make drank, who cares?!?  I honestly don't see how that has to do with anything. 

Does it make him not as innocent as that 6th grade picture that they have of him in the AP all the time?  Sure, but has no bearing on the facts of the case or what happened that night.

It seems like a lot of you guys are letting your frustration with the liberal media manifest itself as character attacks on Martin, which only leads to red herrings and idle chatter.

Bingo.  Too many people are focusing on conjecture, speculation, and tertiary details that fit their own agenda.  But as they say, don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

[Spotcheck Billy]

just ask Johnny Jolly about the drank

Drank?  Never heard of it before.  Guess I don't get out much.

Is it kinda like wapatooli? 

[forgetful]

This is not, however, fully consistent with the evidence.  The only evidence I'm aware of that GZ was on top is after the shot was fired.  Only one witness said that.  Others said TM was on top, and the forensic evidence supported that witness testimony.  I'm not aware of any evidence at all that GZ tried to detain TM.  If you're aware of that, I'd be interested to hear who said that.  Also, you keep suggesting (I think) that GZ had his gun in his waistband on the back.  I'm not disputing this, but my understanding was that it was in the waistband on the side.  Am I wrong on that?

It was reported that it was a rear-inside the wasteband holster.  The gun was a Kel-Tec PF-9.  Combined with the holster (leaves very little of the grip accessible) it is a very difficult draw.

GZ reenacted in a video how he pulled the gun, confirming he wore it in back and completely sticking his foot in his mouth.  His reenactment is physically impossible.  He claimed that TM reached between his (GZs) arm and body to reach the gun around his back.  GZ pinned his (TMs) arm against his body.  With the same arm (as is being used to pin TMs) he then grabs his gun from the holster.  This is physically impossible.  The motion required to pull the gun would release TMs arm.  If TM was on top and aware of the gun, there is no way GZ can pull it without a fight over the gun, and no way GZ can get a shot off squarely in TMs chest.

It is very likely, that this story has changed.  GZ routinely changed his story about the events (at least in the initial days following the altercation).
The transcript I read from Selma Mora said GZ was on top before the shot was fired.  The forensic evidence also supported alternative theories as admitted by the expert.  Trayvon's girlfriend testified that she thinks GZ tried to detain TM and TM resisted.  That's what led to the comment some here are using that TM started the fight and she confirmed it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Source?
Also, toxicology showed no evidence of codeine in TM's system ... so you're pretty much making stuff up. A recurring theme among some in this thread.

Watch the video...correct no codeine in his system.  Marijuana yes, no codeine.  Here is some of the stuff on his facebook page about lean.  I wasn't making anything up.

"On June 27, 2011, Trayvon asks a friend online, "unow a connect for codien?"  He tells the friend that "robitussin nd soda" could make "some fire ass lean."  He says, "I had it before" and that he wants "to make some more."  On the night of February 26, if Brandy had some Robitussin at home, Trayvon had just bought the mixings for one "fire ass lean" cocktail."

[ChicosBailBonds]

Cops train, retrain and re-certify to stay on duty. They have a lot of hours invested in techniques, both physical and mental. This includes the use the deadly force and ultimately a firearm... and even they aren't perfect.

I don't like citizens following and ultimately engaging with "suspects" at all, and I ESPECIALLY don't like it with a firearm. They don't have the training for such situation. It's a bad idea.

So you're calling TM a suspect?

[ChicosBailBonds]

EVEN IF he were out to make drank, who cares?!?  I honestly don't see how that has to do with anything. 

Does it make him not as innocent as that 6th grade picture that they have of him in the AP all the time?  Sure, but has no bearing on the facts of the case or what happened that night.

It seems like a lot of you guys are letting your frustration with the liberal media manifest itself as character attacks on Martin, which only leads to red herrings and idle chatter.

Does it matter.....good question.  If it affected his state of mind, then I would say yes.  If he drank a bunch of alcohol 3 hours prior...would it matter?  Would if GZ drank alcohol or purple drank 3 hours before hand?  Would it matter?  What if it was 2 hours?

I don't think it's as simple as "who cares"....it can matter. 

Much of the frustration isn't just with the media, but the race hustlers in this country and the hypocrisy that they push.  I think most of us have said this is a tragedy, preventable, but the racist angle isn't there, especially if people knew GZ's background.  That was made up by the media and certain people that push this crap and that is incredibly unfortunate.

[Spotcheck Billy]

there wouldn't be any codeine in his system since he never made it home to fix up a batch

[ChicosBailBonds]

Drank?  Never heard of it before.  Guess I don't get out much.

Is it kinda like wapatooli? 

Purple Drank, Lean, Sizzurp.....all the same names.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

So you're calling TM a suspect?

Generically, yes, because that is how Zimmerman incorrectly identified him... which again, leads me back to:

"I don't like untrained citizens carrying guns and following other citizens who MIGHT commit a crime".

[Pakuni]

Watch the video...correct no codeine in his system.  Marijuana yes, no codeine.  Here is some of the stuff on his facebook page about lean.  I wasn't making anything up.

"On June 27, 2011, Trayvon asks a friend online, "unow a connect for codien?"  He tells the friend that "robitussin nd soda" could make "some fire ass lean."  He says, "I had it before" and that he wants "to make some more."  On the night of February 26, if Brandy had some Robitussin at home, Trayvon had just bought the mixings for one "fire ass lean" cocktail."

Chico's .... can you please provide one reputable news source - i.e. not an anarchist Canadian blogger who's been accused of operating a cult and affiliates with Alex Jones and other conspiracy theorists - for the Facebook claims? I mean, I could make a youtube video claiming George Zimmerman once posted he hates black people. That doesn't make it true. The fact that your source is Stefan Molyneux, and you actually find it credible, makes me worry about you. Either you'll cite any nutjob if you think it'll make your case, or you actually believe what the guys is selling.

That said, I'm glad to see that you admit that your insertion of "purple drank" into the discussion and how it supposedly affects one's behavior was little more than a red herring. Could you explain why you thought it necessary to suggest that the drug may have factored in TM's actions that night when we both know he hadn't used the drug? Smear campaign, maybe?

As for the pot .... THC stays in one's system for up to 30 days and, according to the tox report, the level in TM's system were described as "trace amounts." Thus, not only is it extremely unlikely he used that night, it's extremely unlikely he'd used for many days prior to his death. So why insert it into the discussion? Pot had no role in what happened that night. Smear campaign, maybe?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Generically, yes, because that is how Zimmerman incorrectly identified him... which again, leads me back to:

"I don't like untrained citizens carrying guns and following other citizens who MIGHT commit a crime".

Problem with that then is everyone could be construed as a suspect.  More importantly, if you are going to C&C the time you need it most is when you come across someone that is a problem...a "suspect".  The cops arrive 10 minutes later, you can do something now.  That's the choice.  The difference here is GZ followed him, I get it.  That's a "problem", even though not illegal.  But if I'm in a mall and I'm carrying and all of a sudden shooting breaks out, that's when I want my gun most because calvary is going to take some time to arrive....time I may not have.

[willie warrior]

Jesus.  What if it was your kid who got killed?  And the guy who murdered him got off scott free?  Would outrage be justified then?

Hmmmm..... "Murder"? He wasn't convicted.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Problem with that then is everyone could be construed as a suspect.  More importantly, if you are going to C&C the time you need it most is when you come across someone that is a problem...a "suspect".  The cops arrive 10 minutes later, you can do something now.  That's the choice.  The difference here is GZ followed him, I get it.  That's a "problem", even though not illegal.  But if I'm in a mall and I'm carrying and all of a sudden shooting breaks out, that's when I want my gun most because calvary is going to take some time to arrive....time I may not have.

If you want to conceal and carry for PERSONAL protection, fine. That's what it's for.

If somebody attacked George while he was sitting in his truck, he is welcome to discharge his weapon.

But, the minute he actively followed somebody, I don't like it. I don't know how the law should be written or interpreted, but I just don't like poorly trained citizens actively engaging other citizens (without cause).

Conceal and carry is for self defense. It is not for hunting down bad guys. This isn't a Charles Bronson movie. This is real life.

[lab_warrior]

Hmmmm..... "Murder"? He wasn't convicted.

Neither was OJ. 

Quick word association, what's the first word
that comes to mind when I mention OJ?  I'll bet
the farm it's murder/murderer.

[forgetful]

If your going to talk about possible drugs that may be in his system then at least get it right.  Robitussin does not have codeine in it, it has dextromethorphan, often goes by the name DXM.  It is a disociative anesthetic, and although it can cause paranoia, it would be unlikely to cause aggression or violent behavior.  It is extremely commonly abused by youth as they view it as a safe drug. 

Codeine would also not cause aggression or violent behavior.  In fact both drugs would be more likely to make you passive and less likely to be involved in an altercation.

The talk of drugs here is irrelevant and serves no purpose but to drag the kids name through the mud.  If he was bringing the concoction home to make a DXM cocktail, well that just makes him like probably 30-40% of youth.  So are 30-40% of youth thugs that should be profiled and hunted down.

[ATWizJr]

If you want to conceal and carry for PERSONAL protection, fine. That's what it's for.

If somebody attacked George while he was sitting in his truck, he is welcome to discharge his weapon.

But, the minute he actively followed somebody, I don't like it. I don't know how the law should be written or interpreted, but I just don't like poorly trained citizens actively engaging other citizens (without cause).

Conceal and carry is for self defense. It is not for hunting down bad guys. This isn't a Charles Bronson movie. This is real life.

and that's how the weapon was used, in self defense.

[Benny B]

Neither was OJ. 

Quick word association, what's the first word
that comes to mind when I mention OJ?  I'll bet
the farm it's murder/murderer.

That's got to be the worst haiku ever on Scoop.

[Pakuni]

If your going to talk about possible drugs that may be in his system then at least get it right.  Robitussin does not have codeine in it, it has dextromethorphan, often goes by the name DXM.  It is a disociative anesthetic, and although it can cause paranoia, it would be unlikely to cause aggression or violent behavior.  It is extremely commonly abused by youth as they view it as a safe drug.  

Codeine would also not cause aggression or violent behavior.  In fact both drugs would be more likely to make you passive and less likely to be involved in an altercation.

The talk of drugs here is irrelevant and serves no purpose but to drag the kids name through the mud.  If he was bringing the concoction home to make a DXM cocktail, well that just makes him like probably 30-40% of youth.  So are 30-40% of youth thugs that should be profiled and hunted down.

Codeine is the most common active ingredient in purple drank. Some will also try it with dextromethorphan, but that's not the original or most frequent method of making it.

http://www.narconon.org/drug-information/purple-drank.html

Beyond that, you're right. The drug talk is a red herring.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

and that's how the weapon was used, in self defense.

No. Not to me.

Zimmerman actively followed/tracked another person (without identifying himself or his intentions) and eventually led to an altercation where he used his firearm.

I don't like that.

It's a BAD idea for citizens to act like that.

[ATWizJr]

No. Not to me.

Zimmerman actively followed/tracked another person (without identifying himself or his intentions) and eventually led to an altercation where he used his firearm.

I don't like that.

It's a BAD idea for citizens to act like that.

Zimmerman or any citizen is not prohibited from keeping track of a stranger in their neighborhood and s not required to identify himself or his intentions.  Following someone does not justify Martin's attack.  If Martin felt threatened, he could have contacted the authorities or left the area.  Instead, he decided to take matters into his own hands and initiated the attack.  A foolish, macho, 17 year old male mistake.  And Zimmerman defended himself in a legal manner.

[Pakuni]

Zimmerman Trayvon Martin or any citizen is not prohibited from keeping track of a stranger in walking home from the store through a neighborhood and s not required to identify himself or his intentions.  Supposedly looking suspicious Following someone  does not justify Martin's Zimmerman's attack.  If Martin Zimmerman felt threatened, he could have contacted the authorities orand left the area.  Instead, he decided to take matters into his own hands and initiated the attack.  A foolish, macho, 17 year old male overzealous wannabe mistake.  And Zimmerman defended himself in a legal manner killed someone as a result.

See ... I can speculate, too.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Zimmerman or any citizen is not prohibited from keeping track of a stranger in their neighborhood and s not required to identify himself or his intentions.  Following someone does not justify Martin's attack.  If Martin felt threatened, he could have contacted the authorities or left the area.  Instead, he decided to take matters into his own hands and initiated the attack.  A foolish, macho, 17 year old male mistake.  And Zimmerman defended himself in a legal manner.

Martin was walking home. He wasn't out looking for Zimmerman.

Zimmerman armed himself, and went out looking for potential criminals. He followed, engaged, and ultimately fired upon an unarmed man.

I have a hard time calling that self defense. I know it's all "legal", but that's what I find concerning. I don't like the way the laws are written or interpreted.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chico's .... can you please provide one reputable news source - i.e. not an anarchist Canadian blogger who's been accused of operating a cult and affiliates with Alex Jones and other conspiracy theorists - for the Facebook claims? I mean, I could make a youtube video claiming George Zimmerman once posted he hates black people. That doesn't make it true. The fact that your source is Stefan Molyneux, and you actually find it credible, makes me worry about you. Either you'll cite any nutjob if you think it'll make your case, or you actually believe what the guys is selling.

That said, I'm glad to see that you admit that your insertion of "purple drank" into the discussion and how it supposedly affects one's behavior was little more than a red herring. Could you explain why you thought it necessary to suggest that the drug may have factored in TM's actions that night when we both know he hadn't used the drug? Smear campaign, maybe?

As for the pot .... THC stays in one's system for up to 30 days and, according to the tox report, the level in TM's system were described as "trace amounts." Thus, not only is it extremely unlikely he used that night, it's extremely unlikely he'd used for many days prior to his death. So why insert it into the discussion? Pot had no role in what happened that night. Smear campaign, maybe?

He had marijuana in his system.....look at some of the side effects for marijuana, which include paranoia.  Does that matter?  Was he paranoid?  Sure sounded like it with his girlfriend.  Classic marijuana side effect.

The kid obviously made a LOT of dumb decisions, that's why it is relevant.  Whether it's publicly stating his desire to make lean or purple drank, whether it's publicly posting videos trying to get an illegal gun, whether it's attacking GZ....all goes to his mental process and his ability to make rational decisions.  So no, there is no red herring, it's a pattern of poor choices, poor behaviors...exactly the thing that led to his death because he though it would be a good idea to take on a crazy ass cracker when he was only 70 yards from his home and should have just gone home.  Tragic, but that's all it would have taken.

Instead we have people here that are actually wanting others to believe that GZ called the cops before the incident and then intentionally shot this kid, and then asked one witness to call the cops again.   That's really what we are being asked to believe, that GZ was so brilliantly smart that he would call the cops, stay on the phone with the cops, time it just right to kill this kid a minute before they arrive.....oh, and also be led to believe it was all on video tape where he would be exonnerated.

As for your reputable sources comment, I gave you what he said from his face book page.

June 11, 2012, Trayvon asks a friend online, "unow a connect for codien?"  He tells the friend that "robitussin nd soda" could make "some fire ass lean."  He says, "I had it before" and that he wants "to make some more."

Here's just ONE screenshot of his account...his words, not mine.  This appeared in the NY Times online version, among many other places.  No anarchist, just his words.....if the libertarian Canadian radio show host got it right (which he did), then that's all that needs to be said.

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=672&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=AUPwUbX6OsjwiwL9w4GoDw&q=trayvon+martin+twitter+screenshot+lean&oq=trayvon+martin+twitter+screenshot+lean&gs_l=img.3...14120.14725.0.14992.5.5.0.0.0.0.130.420.2j3.5.0....0...1c.1.22.img..5.0.0.kfajZ0XFrEM#biv=i%7C18%3Bd%7CxL0DOIVklFTXtM%3A


There are other screen shots of his other postings, photos, etc.  Isn't it interesting that the media was able to post a nice shot of him when he was 12 years old, was able to edit Zimmerman's 911 call to make him look racist, posted a picture of GZ that made him look like the evil, plodding killer but all of these details were left out.  Hmmm.  One wonders if GZ had these facebook and twitter postings if the national media would carry them?  One wonders if GZ openly talked about lean and purple drank, was high on  marijuana if it would be reported that he was simply getting candy and ice tea (not Skittles and a specific drink to mix into a codeine cocktail).  Yes, one wonders.   

[Spotcheck Billy]

others have posted that the amount in his system was very small likely from several days before type small, that would have not have made him paranoid, people only get paranoid if they are complaetely baked at the time

He had marijuana in his system.....look at some of the side effects for marijuana, which include paranoia.  Does that matter?  Was he paranoid?  Sure sounded like it with his girlfriend.  Classic marijuana side effect.

[Benny B]

No. Not to me.

Zimmerman actively followed/tracked another person (without identifying himself or his intentions) and eventually led to an altercation where he used his firearm.

I don't like that.

It's a BAD idea for citizens to act like that.

IF what you're purporting is actually what had happened, then I don't think anyone would be disagreeing with you.  The problem is the facts and the testimony do not support the implication you're making with reference to Zimmerman's mindset.

What if George Zimmerman wasn't carrying a gun.  What if Zimmerman happened to be an elite MMA fighter and landed a blow that was either directly or indirectly fatal?  Would you then argue that anyone with any sort of military, martial arts, boxing, or hand-to-hand combat training is not allowed to follow or observe a suspicious person in his/her neighborhood under any circumstances?