Crean vs Buzz vs Wojo vs Shaka

[tower912]

NM.   Back to the popcorn.   Carry on.

[brewcity77]

But there are also other facts at play here, facts you want to ignore because they contradict your full cupboard narrative. Sorry, but in assessing what was left behind it’s legit to point out that Acker had never been any good at MU. And that he was dismissed from the team. And that he was only a member of the team because the guy coming in to replace him was hurt. It’s also germane to point out that Cubillan was awful his junior year (27fg%, less than 1 point and 1rebound per game.

The main reason they didn't play was because we had a loaded back court. James/McNeal/Matthews was one of the best groups in the country. Acker was adequate when he replaced James. Not great, clearly not as good as James, but roughly an average player (which felt like and was a big step down from an all-conference type PG).

But simply, you are either lying or misremembering reality here. Acker was a fine backup as a sophomore. His 109.6 ORtg and 42.6% 3PFG% made him a solid backup guard behind McNeal and James (and more efficient and a better shooter than either). As a junior, his efficiency dipped, but not horrendously (99.7/28.8%) and he did okay managing the ship when James went down. His biggest deficiency was his defense, but he was good enough to get minutes on that team before and after James' injury. And as Sultan pointed out, you are again either lying or misremembering when it comes to the timing of Acker's return.

Cubillan had a down junior year recovering from injury, but was a high efficiency player as a freshman (119.3 ORtg, 2nd on team) and sophomore (112.3, 2nd on team) indicating that when he was healthy, he was a plus contributor. Buzz tried to run him off, like Acker, because he liked bigger guards but failed to do so. Fortunately for him.

Your facts and my fact together form an accurate picture. Fair people will look at both and form their opinion. No matter how angry and unreasonable you want to be.

The problem here is that my facts are facts, and your fact about the timing of when Buzz begged Acker to come back is not true. Fair people will look and see that I am telling the truth and you are lying, because you have been reminded about this multiple times and continue to perpetuate the same lie.

Scoop’s two biggest blowhards (sultan and Heisy) are your wingmen here. Hmmm.

And Nukem, and Equalizer, and pretty much anyone not named Ners weighing in on the topic. You might want to consider the company you are keeping. Even Goose isn't jumping in on your side here.

In addition, there's no debating that Crean brought Acker and Cubillan in and Buzz deployed them as starters, and they did so to excellent effect. Acker was 3rd in the nation in 3PFG% at 49.5%, had an excellent ORtg (117.1, #124 nationally), and Marquette career-bests in assist rate and turnover rate. Cubillian was 3rd on the team in minutes, also shot excellent (41.2%) from three, and was second on the team in efficiency (119.1, 77th nationally). In addition, the team was more efficient (0.955 ppp) on an adjusted per possession basis than either the year before in 2009 (0.961) or the year after they left in 2011 (0.973).

Buzz did a phenomenal job adjusting to the talent on that team. He did very well slowing the pace, adapting his style, and really readjusting to the roster he had and maximizing what Acker and Cubillan were as players on the offensive end while minimizing the negatives of their size on the defensive end. But he did that with the players he had, which was a pair of players recruited by his predecessor.

You can say I'm being angry and unreasonable, but that doesn't make it so. The reality is I am right and you are simply wrong and having a very tough time accepting that. The only opinion I've offered here is that Buzz did a phenomenal job with the 2009-10 team. Everything else is black and white facts that you are trying to debate. If you want to debate takes, you can argue against my contention that Buzz coached 2009-10 in excellent fashion, none of the rest is up for argument.

[Billy Hoyle]

The main reason they didn't play was because we had a loaded back court. James/McNeal/Matthews was one of the best groups in the country. Acker was adequate when he replaced James. Not great, clearly not as good as James, but roughly an average player (which felt like and was a big step down from an all-conference type PG).

But simply, you are either lying or misremembering reality here. Acker was a fine backup as a sophomore. His 109.6 ORtg and 42.6% 3PFG% made him a solid backup guard behind McNeal and James (and more efficient and a better shooter than either). As a junior, his efficiency dipped, but not horrendously (99.7/28.8%) and he did okay managing the ship when James went down. His biggest deficiency was his defense, but he was good enough to get minutes on that team before and after James' injury. And as Sultan pointed out, you are again either lying or misremembering when it comes to the timing of Acker's return.

Cubillan had a down junior year recovering from injury, but was a high efficiency player as a freshman (119.3 ORtg, 2nd on team) and sophomore (112.3, 2nd on team) indicating that when he was healthy, he was a plus contributor. Buzz tried to run him off, like Acker, because he liked bigger guards but failed to do so. Fortunately for him.

The problem here is that my facts are facts, and your fact about the timing of when Buzz begged Acker to come back is not true. Fair people will look and see that I am telling the truth and you are lying, because you have been reminded about this multiple times and continue to perpetuate the same lie.

And Nukem, and Equalizer, and pretty much anyone not named Ners weighing in on the topic. You might want to consider the company you are keeping. Even Goose isn't jumping in on your side here.

In addition, there's no debating that Crean brought Acker and Cubillan in and Buzz deployed them as starters, and they did so to excellent effect. Acker was 3rd in the nation in 3PFG% at 49.5%, had an excellent ORtg (117.1, #124 nationally), and Marquette career-bests in assist rate and turnover rate. Cubillian was 3rd on the team in minutes, also shot excellent (41.2%) from three, and was second on the team in efficiency (119.1, 77th nationally). In addition, the team was more efficient (0.955 ppp) on an adjusted per possession basis than either the year before in 2009 (0.961) or the year after they left in 2011 (0.973).

Buzz did a phenomenal job adjusting to the talent on that team. He did very well slowing the pace, adapting his style, and really readjusting to the roster he had and maximizing what Acker and Cubillan were as players on the offensive end while minimizing the negatives of their size on the defensive end. But he did that with the players he had, which was a pair of players recruited by his predecessor.

You can say I'm being angry and unreasonable, but that doesn't make it so. The reality is I am right and you are simply wrong and having a very tough time accepting that. The only opinion I've offered here is that Buzz did a phenomenal job with the 2009-10 team. Everything else is black and white facts that you are trying to debate. If you want to debate takes, you can argue against my contention that Buzz coached 2009-10 in excellent fashion, none of the rest is up for argument.

you nailed this, Brew. Acker and Cuby were meant to be depth pieces, not starters. They were very good in those roles and . That said, Buzz didn't have to beg Mo to come back to the team as much as he had to beg the administration to let him back on the team due to some issues (not academic) that led to him being off the roster.

[Lennys Tap]

The bolded is false.

Mo Acker rejoins the team in August 2009

https://marquettewire.org/3751423/tribune/tribune-sports/acker-to-rejoin-mens-basketball-team/

Junior Cadougan injured in September

https://marquettewire.org/3753116/tribune/tribune-sports/cadougan-out-four-to-six-months/

And if constantly pointing out your errors, mis-statements and exaggerations because you can't admit that your take was horrendous, makes me a "blowhard," it's a badge I will wear with honor.  And I will continue down this path the more you continue to double...triple...sextuple down on this nonsense.

Got anything else???

I was wrong on the timing. See how easy that was?

The fact remains that he sucked as a junior and was invited to return as a back up, not a starter.

[Lennys Tap]

Buzz coached them for THREE years--one as an assistant to Crean and two as head coach.

During his first year coaching them (as Crean's assistant), he had a front row seat witnessing them for 30 or so games and five+ months of practice.

If you want an honest and truthful argument, you have to start by agreeing with basic facts, and that starts with the fact that Buzz was on MU's coaching staff the year before he was promoted to head coach.  As such, he had first-hand experience working with everyone on the team.

If you disagree with that, then you're the one trying to pass of falsehoods.

The ASSISTANT is not in charge. He does what his boss tells him to do. His seat was better than mine, but he wasn’t making the decisions.

[Lennys Tap]

Acker was adequate when he replaced James. Not great, clearly not as good as James, but roughly an average player (which felt like and was a big step down from an all-conference type PG).

If you think a guard with a 29.7 fg% who can’t guard anybody is an average Big East guard I’m glad you’re not in charge of recruiting.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

If you think a guard with a 29.7 fg% who can’t guard anybody is an average Big East guard I’m glad you’re not in charge of recruiting.

His senior year he had an EFG of .554, which would have been top 10 BE but he didn't have enough attempts. Top 20 in the conference in both assists and steals.

Again, not a super-star, but completely serviceable.  Far from "EMPTY."

[brewcity77]

If you think a guard with a 29.7 fg% who can’t guard anybody is an average Big East guard I’m glad you’re not in charge of recruiting.

I know reading isn't always your strong suit, but the part you quoted said "when he replaced James." During that time, Acker shot 11/30 from three (36.7%) and 2/4 from two (50%). I'll take a 54.4 eFG% from the bench replacement any time. He had 23 assists to 9 turnovers. Buzz strictly used him as a game manager and charged him with handling the ball and not turning it over (never more than 2 TOs in a game during that stretch). He wasn't great, he wasn't awful. He was fine. But because he was replacing James and we were playing 6/8 games against ranked teams (5 in the top-10) he was just adequate.

Seriously, you don't have to do this. Your defenders are all gone, you're spam posting Chicos style to defend the indefensible. It's okay to just walk away from the topic you've so clearly been run around in circles on. Just take the L and move on.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

To recap...Buzz was left with an "EMPTY" cupboard in year two.

Well except for...

**A second team all Big East player who lead the team in scoring and would be drafted in the first round of the next NBA draft
**A guard who started every game, lead the team in EFG and was third in minutes played
**A guard who started 21 games, lead the team in assists, and second in 3P%

Look, clearly Jimmy and DJO were way better than Cubillan and Acker. But they certainly were not without value.  And Buzz knew that!  That's why he played them as much as he did. Great coaching job all around.

And Lazar was great of course. With the Otule injury playing out of position the entire season.

[wadesworld]

And who is responsible for the cupboard in a coach’s second year, anyway? I mean, I’ve never heard that argument until now.

[Lennys Tap]

And who is responsible for the cupboard in a coach’s second year, anyway? I mean, I’ve never heard that argument until now.

Actually this exact topic has been discussed before on Scoop. I don’t have the time, energy or inclination to look for it, but it has.

[wadesworld]

Actually this exact topic has been discussed before on Scoop. I don’t have the time, energy or inclination to look for it, but it has.

Don’t recall it. But if it has, it’s an absurd argument.

I hate that Buzz left Wojo a bare cupboard in year 6 though.

[#UnleashSean]

Guys guys guys.... wojo sucked. Why would you waste time arguing about his first two years.

Dude lost to Omaha west or some crap at home.

[Badgerhater]

Don’t recall it. But if it has, it’s an absurd argument.

I hate that Buzz left Wojo a bare cupboard in year 6 though.

That is a typical situation for a new coach and one he accepted when he took the job.  We as fans also don’t expect much the first year when the cupboard was bare.


A typical year two starts showing the character and toughness of the coach and team.  The players involve may be young and lack experience, but how the team will function going forward becomes evident.

I wanted Wojo gone after year two.

[Elonsmusk]

The only person embarrassed here is you, though it's funny how desperately you're trying not to be.

Buzz was left with four starting seniors (McNeal, James, Matthews, Burke) on a team that spent time in the top-10 as well as Lazar Hayward, Maurice Acker, David Cubillan, Joe Fulce, and Chris Otule (the last two both committed to Marquette under Crean). Also Tyshawn Taylor, but Buzz couldn't keep him. By any measure a loaded roster in year one and a solid foundation to build on in year two.

Oh, and your "invite him back" characterization is funny. Buzz had to freaking beg Acker back when he realized he couldn't recruit anyone better. Buzz owes his second year success to those two sticking around despite his own admitted best efforts to run them off. No one is saying they were All-Americans. But they were starters and key players on a 6-seed that wouldn't have been a tourney team without them, and they were there because Crean added them to the roster and Buzz failed in his efforts to get rid of them, a failure that ultimately benefited him.

Just stop, man, you really can't do anything but make yourself look worse.

Why do you keep brining up Year 1 of Buzz?  Nobody ever said Year 1 cupboard was empty, obviously it wasn't. 

You can bellyache all you want about what stud players Mo Acker and David Cubiallan were, but that doesn't change the fact they weren't studs.  Had Tom Crean been coaching that roster, most everyone could agree that they wouldn't have sniffed a 6 seed.

Stop showing your lack of basketball knowledge by trying to assert inheriting two guards referred to as the "midgets" at a time that word was still being used, implied stocked cupboard.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

You can bellyache all you want about what stud players Mo Acker and David Cubiallan were, but that doesn't change the fact they weren't studs. 

Where did brew, or anyone else, claim they were "studs?" You were the one who claimed the year two cupboard was "EMPTY." It wasn't.

Had Tom Crean been coaching that roster, most everyone could agree that they wouldn't have sniffed a 6 seed.

Probably, but not sure how that is relevant to the point brew is making

Stop showing your lack of basketball knowledge by trying to assert inheriting two guards referred to as the "midgets" at a time that word was still being used, implied stocked cupboard.

Where did brew claim or imply "stocked cupboard?"

[Uncle Rico]

Interestingly,

Acker in 2010 had an offensive rating of 117.1, 55.4% effective fg%, assist rate of 24.6 and TO rate of 15.4 and was 3rd in the nation in 3pt % (51-103).

Cubillan in 2010 had an offensive rating of 119.1, 59.5 effective fg%, 60% TS and shot 41% from 3.

In John Dawson’s last year at Liberty, he had an offensive rating of 92.1, solid 19.8 assist rate and shot 34% from 3.

[wadesworld]

Interestingly,

Acker in 2010 had an offensive rating of 117.1, 55.4% effective fg%, assist rate of 24.6 and TO rate of 15.4 and was 3rd in the nation in 3pt % (51-103).

Cubillan in 2010 had an offensive rating of 119.1, 59.5 effective fg%, 60% TS and shot 41% from 3.

In John Dawson’s last year at Liberty, he had an offensive rating of 92.1, solid 19.8 assist rate and shot 34% from 3.

Lol.  That is interesting.

Keep in mind, John Dawson saw almost no minutes on G League rosters stacked with guys like Cat Barger, Charles Cooke, Mangok Mathiang, Roscoe Smith, Sam Thompson, Luke Petrasek, Brent Arrington, Joe Chealey, Malik Pope, Jeff Roberson, Max Montana...you get the point.  Needless to say, the proof is unquestionable that Dawson was an all timer had Wojo not ran him off.

[Uncle Rico]

Lol.  That is interesting.

Keep in mind, John Dawson saw almost no minutes on G League rosters stacked with guys like Cat Barger, Charles Cooke, Mangok Mathiang, Roscoe Smith, Sam Thompson, Luke Petrasek, Brent Arrington, Joe Chealey, Malik Pope, Jeff Roberson, Max Montana...you get the point.  Needless to say, the proof is unquestionable that Dawson was an all timer had Wojo not ran him off.

Listen, the job Buzz did whipping that team into shape with all the minutes he lost was incredible, but he had good college basketball players playing the majority of the minutes.  Mo and David played well.  They did. 

In a lot of ways, that ‘10 team should be something people keep in mind when thinking about the ‘24-‘25 season

[Elonsmusk]

Lol.  That is interesting.

Keep in mind, John Dawson saw almost no minutes on G League rosters stacked with guys like Cat Barger, Charles Cooke, Mangok Mathiang, Roscoe Smith, Sam Thompson, Luke Petrasek, Brent Arrington, Joe Chealey, Malik Pope, Jeff Roberson, Max Montana...you get the point.  Needless to say, the proof is unquestionable that Dawson was an all timer had Wojo not ran him off.

I mean if you want to play this game, I'll gladly repost your highly critical takes on Tyler, and your UBER bullish takes on Wojo.  Keep in mind, you lost 1,000 dollars on the bet you made with me betting against Tyler Kolek shooting over 35% from his Junior year. 

You and Rico can have all the fun you want at the expense of my take on John Dawson being a much better basketball player than Derrick Wilson.  That's fine.  I'll take that take to my grave.  I'll also gladly take to my grave my take that 10 games into Wojo's career at MU I called it correct that he didn't have "it," and wouldn't be a good coach - while you were popping off about likely future Final Four appearances under Wojo once he got "all his guys."  Brew too was big time on that "once he got all his guys" bandwagon.  LMAO

[Elonsmusk]

Where did brew, or anyone else, claim they were "studs?" You were the one who claimed the year two cupboard was "EMPTY." It wasn't.


Probably, but not sure how that is relevant to the point brew is making


Where did brew claim or imply "stocked cupboard?"

Is Brew your Daddy or is it the other way around?  Seems plausible.  Brew seems to think inheriting a roster with Lazar, Mo, David, Joe Fulce and Chris Otule is a stocked cupboard.  Most reasonable people wouldn't look at that roster and think - definitely high major, 6 seed material.  Buzz's coaching extracted the max out of that squad, and his additions of Jimmy, DJO, and Dwight helped us avoid what should have been an NIT caliber season.

Not sure why Brew thinks Nick Williams or Tyshawn Taylor matter.  Kids commit to coaches, not schools.  Buzz had no track record as a head coach other than a 1-year stint at UNO to try to sell to those two recruits.  And of course Taylor improved as a Senior to where Kansas wanted him.  And Nick Williams folloed Crean to Indiana.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Is Brew your Daddy or is it the other way around?  Seems plausible.  Brew seems to think inheriting a roster with Lazar, Mo, David, Joe Fulce and Chris Otule is a stocked cupboard.  Most reasonable people wouldn't look at that roster and think - definitely high major, 6 seed material.  Buzz's coaching extracted the max out of that squad, and his additions of Jimmy, DJO, and Dwight helped us avoid what should have been an NIT caliber season.

Not sure why Brew thinks Nick Williams or Tyshawn Taylor matter.  Kids commit to coaches, not schools.  Buzz had no track record as a head coach other than a 1-year stint at UNO to try to sell to those two recruits.  And of course Taylor improved as a Senior to where Kansas wanted him.  And Nick Williams folloed Crean to Indiana.

So…it wasn’t “EMPTY” like you initially said.

[Uncle Rico]

I mean if you want to play this game, I'll gladly repost your highly critical takes on Tyler, and your UBER bullish takes on Wojo.  Keep in mind, you lost 1,000 dollars on the bet you made with me betting against Tyler Kolek shooting over 35% from his Junior year. 

You and Rico can have all the fun you want at the expense of my take on John Dawson being a much better basketball player than Derrick Wilson.  That's fine.  I'll take that take to my grave.  I'll also gladly take to my grave my take that 10 games into Wojo's career at MU I called it correct that he didn't have "it," and wouldn't be a good coach - while you were popping off about likely future Final Four appearances under Wojo once he got "all his guys."  Brew too was big time on that "once he got all his guys" bandwagon.  LMAO

Acker and Cubillan were just fine as seniors and played quite well.

Arguing about Dawson and Wilson is a strike against Buzz since he recruited both

[Billy Hoyle]

Is Brew your Daddy or is it the other way around?  Seems plausible.  Brew seems to think inheriting a roster with Lazar, Mo, David, Joe Fulce and Chris Otule is a stocked cupboard.  Most reasonable people wouldn't look at that roster and think - definitely high major, 6 seed material.  Buzz's coaching extracted the max out of that squad, and his additions of Jimmy, DJO, and Dwight helped us avoid what should have been an NIT caliber season.

Not sure why Brew thinks Nick Williams or Tyshawn Taylor matter.  Kids commit to coaches, not schools.  Buzz had no track record as a head coach other than a 1-year stint at UNO to try to sell to those two recruits.  And of course Taylor improved as a Senior to where Kansas wanted him.  And Nick Williams folloed Crean to Indiana.

There were three other starters Buzz inherited in 08-09. Anyone recall their names?