Rants and Raves

[77ncaachamps]

So this is what it has come to...arguing over what %age of Wade's current success is due to his natural ability versus Crean's coaching.

I mean...really???

Nature vs. Nurture

[ChicosBailBonds]

So this is what it has come to...arguing over what %age of Wade's current success is due to his natural ability versus Crean's coaching.

I mean...really???

Apparently....at least that's how I'm reading some of the comments.  I sometimes wonder how TC's guys tied their shoes and were able to determine if 5 guys were on the court based on some conclusions here.

[Skatastrophy]

I sometimes wonder how TC's guys tied their shoes and were able to determine if 5 guys were on the court based on some conclusions here.

They learned about shoe-tying and counting to 5 before college?

[ATL MU Warrior]

So, who's this Chris Bryant fella?  After all the standard issue "I'm smarter than you" BS this thread has devolved into I don't even remember. 

[Pakuni]

For clarity, are you or Duderino saying no other player under Crean developed or no one developed to the level of Wade? 

Neither.
What I'm saying  - and I think what Duderino is saying - is that it's inane to claim, as one poster is, that Crean through his mighty coaching prowess transformed the mere "7th best player in Illinois" into one of the best basketball players on the planet.
Dwyane Wade could have gone to any number of schools not named Marquette with any number of coaches not named Tom Crean and today he'd still be Dwyane Wade, NBA All-Star. Nothing Tom Crean did with him was unique. If Tom Crean had special coaching talents that allowed him to turn the "7th best player in Illinois" into an NBA star, wouldn't he have repeated the feat by now, or at least come close?
He hasn't, because he hasn't had a player nearly as good as Wade.
That's not intended as a knock on Crean, though no doubt his defense squad will take it as such. The same could be said of any other coach.

As for the rest, nobody has said anything close to those things.

[Lennys Tap]

Sure he did if you view it the same way some of you guys view things...when you guys like to play doctor \ psychologist (note a psychologist is not a doctor for those of you new to this game) this is a slam dunk. 

We get it, Lenny thinks very very little of Crean as a head coach and has said so many many times.  He's Wagneresque was just the latest. 

Wade, one of the greatest players on the planet, doesn't think that way.  Wade actually was COACHED by this particular man, where Lenny was never coached by him, yet Lenny's opinion on this is correct.  Does make you chuckle, doesn't?

Nevertheless, I can only conclude that Lenny must think Wade a moron for thinking the way he does about Crean.  Lenny has had little trouble in the past here declaring how stupid or completely out to lunch someone is for having their opinion (happy to provide examples) that don't agree with his.  So if other people here are morons when their conclusions don't measure up with Lenny's, seems only obvious that Wade must also be a moron since he has a different opinion of TC than Lenny does (despite Lenny playing zero seconds in his life for TC while Wade played\practiced 3 years for him and to this stay is still involved with him).

Or maybe Lenny got dissed at Turners or his grandson didn't get camper of the week.  Who knows.  I just find it somewhat hard to square the opinions of one of the best players ever has one opinion about a coach and actually PLAYED FOR HIM vs someone who played not a second in his life for this coach.  But hey, if TC is fired at IU then maybe Wade can recommend Lenny.

After reading this tripe I must conclude that you will heretofore NEVER criticize a coach you haven't played for if he has any ex players who like him. That would include virtually every coach who ever bought a whistle. So remember that you no longer can reserve judgement on Buzz, you must accept Wesley and Lazar's glowing opinion of him. Every time you get snarky in the future about Buzz we'll all remind you that you have no right to criticize because you never played for him (or anybody at any high level in anything). This is going to be great fun.

Oh, and a psychologist is a doctor of psychology. That makes him/her a doctor.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Neither.
What I'm saying  - and I think what Duderino is saying - is that it's inane to claim, as one poster is, that Crean through his mighty coaching prowess transformed the mere "7th best player in Illinois" into one of the best basketball players on the planet.
Dwyane Wade could have gone to any number of schools not named Marquette with any number of coaches not named Tom Crean and today he'd still be Dwyane Wade, NBA All-Star. Nothing Tom Crean did with him was unique. If Tom Crean had special coaching talents that allowed him to turn the "7th best player in Illinois" into an NBA star, wouldn't he have repeated the feat by now, or at least come close?
He hasn't, because he hasn't had a player nearly as good as Wade.
That's not intended as a knock on Crean, though no doubt his defense squad will take it as such. The same could be said of any other coach.

As for the rest, nobody has said anything close to those things.

A bit of hyperbole.  He could not have gone to just any school with any coach and been the same Dwade.  He certainly could have gone to SOME other schools and achieved the same.  Getting an athlete to reach his full potential is often the most important aspect of coaching, not necessarily if he has his wrist cocked just right on his jump shot.  It's about motivating the person to get to where he belongs.  Not all coaches can do that and some coaches that might be able to do that for some kids can't for others.  So I disagree with your statement.

At the end of the day, Wade sure seems to like Crean and sure doesn't seem to put him in the same category that some folks here do.  I pretty much will go with Wade's opinion.

[Marquette84]

Nobody who saw Dwyane Wade play his senior year believed he was by then the 7th best player in Illinois.
These rankings are largely set by performance during the summer and in all-star camps, and before a kid's senior year. Wade not only was a late bloomer, but he wasn't invited to those all-star camps and he played on an absolutely loaded summer league team, limiting his opportunities.

With all due respect, Wade was 7th in the Mr. Basketball voting--not done by scouts at summer camps months before the end of the year, but by the reporters that cover illinois HS basketball at the end of the senior season.

[Lennys Tap]

Neither.
What I'm saying  - and I think what Duderino is saying - is that it's inane to claim, as one poster is, that Crean through his mighty coaching prowess transformed the mere "7th best player in Illinois" into one of the best basketball players on the planet.
Dwyane Wade could have gone to any number of schools not named Marquette with any number of coaches not named Tom Crean and today he'd still be Dwyane Wade, NBA All-Star. Nothing Tom Crean did with him was unique. If Tom Crean had special coaching talents that allowed him to turn the "7th best player in Illinois" into an NBA star, wouldn't he have repeated the feat by now, or at least come close?
He hasn't, because he hasn't had a player nearly as good as Wade.
That's not intended as a knock on Crean, though no doubt his defense squad will take it as such. The same could be said of any other coach.

As for the rest, nobody has said anything close to those things.

This is basically what everyone is saying and there's no doubt it's true (to every MU fan not named Chicos or 84)

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is basically what everyone is saying and there's no doubt it's true (to every MU fan not named Chicos or 84)

And yet, still, Wade seems to like the guy, thanks the guy, believes he was integral for getting him into the NBA.  Maybe you should add his name to Chicos and 84....or is he not a MU fan?

You see, no one is doubting his skill set, but I think Wade and others realize that sometimes it takes that certain coach to get you totally focused, totally motivated, etc to make it.  That guy in the minors that taught you the sinker, the coach in college that made you get over your laziness and become a pro, that mentor in business that takes you under his/her wing and shows you how the proper way to manage, organize, cultivate, prepare, etc.

Nah, it couldn't be any of that.   

[Pakuni]

A bit of hyperbole.  He could not have gone to just any school with any coach and been the same Dwade.  He certainly could have gone to SOME other schools and achieved the same.  Getting an athlete to reach his full potential is often the most important aspect of coaching, not necessarily if he has his wrist cocked just right on his jump shot.  It's about motivating the person to get to where he belongs.  Not all coaches can do that and some coaches that might be able to do that for some kids can't for others.  So I disagree with your statement.

At the end of the day, Wade sure seems to like Crean and sure doesn't seem to put him in the same category that some folks here do.  I pretty much will go with Wade's opinion.

Perhaps if you read my post correctly you wouldn't disagree.

Lots of Huggins', Pitino's and Calipari's former players sure seem to like them,  and don't put them into the same category some folks here do.
Not sure what that has to do with the discussion, but I'm guessing you agree that shouldn't shield them from any and all criticism or - gasp! - disagreeing with claims they have the ability to magically transform a state's 7th best player into an NBA all-star.

[Marquette84]

Is it really that hard for you to not grasp?

Wade is one of the best basketball players on the planet. A true NBA superstar. An incredible athlete mixed with elite basketball instincts. Skills that can't be coached into a player. If all it took was trying hard and good coaching for a player to become a superstar like Wade is and has been for awhile, the world would be full of Dwayne Wade's. That obviously isn't the case.

I guess the questions is why is it so hard to think that a coach would have some impact on a players development?

You find people frequently saying that Bo Ryan's offense holds players back and ill-prepares them for the NBA. Haven't we seen people on this board make the argument that good players shouldn't go to wisconsin because Ryan's offense will hurt their development?

We also hear the frequent argument that Matthews and Hawyard (and hopefully Butler) send a message to recruits that Buzz can better prepare players for the league.  Yet, today's argument seems to suggest that a whole lot of people believe that the coach doesn't matter.  If they're good enough for the NBA, it won't matter if they come play for Buzz or if they play the Swing under Bo Ryan, or if Bob Dukiet is raised from the dead and coaches them.

What about a comparison to Pat Kennedy's roll the ball out/no discipline style of play?  Is it really a stretch to think that if Wade didn't start learning complex offense and defensive sets, but rather played "street ball" for three years,  that he might not have developed the skills to be as successful in the NBA?

Take two players--both about the same in the rankings.
  
Put one in a highly disciplined program that uses an NBA-style multiple-set game plan where every moment of the day carefully controlled to maximize performance--from weight training to classroom performance to excluding the posse from having access to the player.  

Put the second in an anything goes/street-ball style game, no sets--just transition and motion offense, let the posse hang out with the team, take a lassiez-faire attitude to what players do on their own time as long as they pass their courses.

Tell me why you think its so unreasonable for me to think that the player in the first setting is going to benefit from his coach, while the player in the second is more likely to be harmed by his coach.

And every last one of them were wrong. If you are naive enough to believe that all Sawyer needed to do was play under Tom Crean and bam, he'd have become a superstar like Wade or that Wade wouldn't have become special under a ton of other college coaches, you don't understand basketball well.

Not "bam."  Three years of hard work at a system tailored for the pro game instead of a no-discipline "street-ball" environment.

And yes, i think Wade would have been a star if say Pat Kennedy coached him. All Wade mainly needed was the motivation and desire to push himself so as to let out his bounty of natural gifts. I do credit Crean though for pushing Wade hard.

I don't think Wade would have been a star.  I think Kennedy's offense would have not enabled Wade to establish the discipline necessary to succeed to the extent he did in the pros, I don't think Wade would have received the same weight training or academic support, I don't believe that Kennedy would have been able to keep the posse at bay.  I think there are a whole host of reasons why MU under Crean was a MUCH stronger environment than DePaul under Kennedy.

As for UIC under Collins or Illinois State under Richardson, I simply don't think each schools support for the basketball program would be sufficient to have enabled Collins or Richardson to develop Wade to the extent that Crean did.  

Natural gifts are a minimum requirement--not a guarantee of success.

[Nukem2]

A strange thread....!

[Marquette84]

Neither.
What I'm saying  - and I think what Duderino is saying - is that it's inane to claim, as one poster is, that Crean through his mighty coaching prowess transformed the mere "7th best player in Illinois" into one of the best basketball players on the planet.
Dwyane Wade could have gone to any number of schools not named Marquette with any number of coaches not named Tom Crean and today he'd still be Dwyane Wade, NBA All-Star. Nothing Tom Crean did with him was unique.

I can't wait for you to smack down the next person who claims that Buzz did something to help Hayward or Matthews (and hopefully Butler) get to the league.

If Tom Crean had special coaching talents that allowed him to turn the "7th best player in Illinois" into an NBA star, wouldn't he have repeated the feat by now, or at least come close?

For a guy who tosses out the "straw man" accusation as frequently as you do, you'd think you'd be able to recognize one when its coming off your own fingertips.

Your straw man nothwitstanding, given that we know Crean runs a complex pro-style multi-set offense, and coaches like Bo Ryan are criticized for using a decidedly non-pro like scheme that reportedly hurts players chances at getting to the NBA, and coaches like Pat Kennedy don't instill a sense of discipline required for success in the NBA--is it really that unreasonable to think that Wade developed more than he might have under other coaches--specifically Ryan or Kennedy?

Maybe Wade was good enough that he could atrophy under a Jimmy Collins or Pat Kennedy and turn out to be just as good as he would have been otherwise.  

Or maybe because he was 21 when he started that hard work instead of 18, he lost 3 years that he'll never get back.

[Pakuni]

I can't wait for you to smack down the next person who claims that Buzz did something to help Hayward or Matthews (and hopefully Butler) get to the league.

My first post in this thread:

"What's funny here is nobody is claiming Tom Crean didn't aide (note: bad spelling on my part) in the development of Dwyane Wade"

That said, you'll never see me suggesting that it was by the powers invested in Buzz Williams that Jimmy Butler went from a player Rivals ranked 129th -  in Texas - to a potential NBA player. I'll give the great majority of the credit to Jimmy's natural abilities and hard work, and chalk up his low ranking to a terrible oversight by the so-called gurus rather than an accurate assessment of his abilities coming out of high school.
If Jimmy really was just the 129th best player in Texas that year, then either Buzz is a miracle worker or Texas should form its own professional league.

Your straw man nothwitstanding, given that we know Crean runs a complex pro-style multi-set offense, and coaches like Bo Ryan are criticized for using a decidedly non-pro like scheme that reportedly hurts players chances at getting to the NBA, and coaches like Pat Kennedy don't instill a sense of discipline required for success in the NBA--is it really that unreasonable to think that Wade developed more than he might have under other coaches--specifically Ryan or Kennedy?

So your argument has now sunk to the level to merely suggesting Crean developed Wade better than Pat Kennedy would have?
The very essence of damning with faint praise, don't you think?
That said, Pat Kennedy has put far more players in the league than Tom Crean (Sam Cassell, George McCloud, Charlie Ward, Bob Sura, Quentin Richardson, Bobby Simmons, Stephen Hunter among them), I chalk that up to the fact he's a better recruiter than Crean, not a better coach, but let's not act as if Kennedy holds players back from the NBA.

As for Bo, I seem to recall a guard ranked outside the RSCI top 100 who went to UW for three years and came out the 5th overall pick in the NBA draft and a future NBA all-star, despite having lesser natural abilities than Dwyane Wade. And another non top 100 kid who became a first round pick of the Phoenix Suns a few years back.

[ringout]

A strange thread....!

Possibly the most painful thread ever.

[Marquette84]

That said, you'll never see me suggesting that it was by the powers invested in Buzz Williams that Jimmy Butler went from a player Rivals ranked 129th -  in Texas - to a potential NBA player. I'll give the great majority of the credit to Jimmy's natural abilities and hard work, and chalk up his low ranking to a terrible oversight by the so-called gurus rather than an accurate assessment of his abilities coming out of high school.
If Jimmy really was just the 129th best player in Texas that year, then either Buzz is a miracle worker or Texas should form its own professional league.

Knowing, of course, that Butler didn't come to MU out of Tomball HS.  He came to MU out of Tyler JC, where he was a JUCO AA.   I'd say its less a terrible oversight by the gurus and more a reflection of using the wrong ranking 2007 HS instead of 2008 JUCO.

Did you honestly forget, or was that an intentional misrepresentation?

Nonetheless, as with Crean and Wade, I would argue that Buzz deserves credit for the development that has taken place since Butler's arrival--not all the way from the #129th player in Texas, but from a JUCO AA--and that I think there are plenty of D1 programs where Butler could have attended and not have developed as much as he did at MU.

So your argument has now sunk to the level to merely suggesting Crean developed Wade better than Pat Kennedy would have?
The very essence of damning with faint praise, don't you think?

Of course not, and I know you know better than to even suggest it.

I used Kennedy because he is a known and obvious example of a different coaching style that probably would not have enabled Wade to develop as much as he did at MU.

That said, Pat Kennedy has put far more players in the league than Tom Crean (Sam Cassell, George McCloud, Charlie Ward, Bob Sura, Quentin Richardson, Bobby Simmons, Stephen Hunter among them), I chalk that up to the fact he's a better recruiter than Crean, not a better coach, but let's not act as if Kennedy holds players back from the NBA.

Richardson was ranked #9 in RSCI before he arrived at DePaul
Sam Cassell was a JC all american and called the best JUCO prospect in any position
Hunter was #36 RSCI
Simmons was #26 in RSCI
Sura was PA player of the year
Ward was one of the greatest all-around HS athletes ever out of HS.
Wade was unranked in the RSCI, and based on his senior HS year was considered 7th best in Illinois.

You could argue that Sura was unknown becasue of the HS conference he played in, but otherwise, you've listed a group of players that were already much higher rated than Wade was at the same point in their careers.  Apples vs. Oranges

Maybe you didn't realize how highly ranked the players you listed were.

If you want to argue that Kennedy was just as good as Crean at developing players, find a similar player who developed anything close to Wade, but flourished under Kennedy's system.

As for Bo, I seem to recall a guard ranked outside the RSCI top 100 who went to UW for three years and came out the 5th overall pick in the NBA draft and a future NBA all-star, despite having lesser natural abilities than Dwyane Wade. And another non top 100 kid who became a first round pick of the Phoenix Suns a few years back.

I'm going to stand by my view that the Swing isn't particularly well suited for preparing players for the NBA. I think if one looks at the track record of all the top-100 players Bo has had through the years compared to those of Crean, I think the performance will bear me out.  If you include the performance of the other outstanding players under the top 100, the record is similar.
 

[El Duderino]

I guess the questions is why is it so hard to think that a coach would have some impact on a players development?

Nobody said that Crean had zero impact on Wade, yet you keep saying over and over that posters are saying that Crean had no impact? Why?

All that those of us who disagree with you and Chicos on this topic have said is that where Wade was ranked by high school recruiting analysts is irrelevant in how skilled Wade actually was. That's it.

By you repeatedly acting like that ranking is important, you're implying that D.Wade really was just a very mediocre basketball talent that Tom Crean magically turned into one of the best talents on the planet. That's ridiculous. It's ridiculous to think Crean or any college coach could do that because they can't. If they could do it, they'd be able to do it all the time with other recruits. They can't because it can't be done. That's no shot at Crean either.

The best thing Tom Crean did for Wade was recognize early what an insane talent he managed to sign to the program and then push Dwayne to get the most out of his abilities vs letting Wade feel like a star and take shortcuts. There is importance in that, especially given MU at the time hadn't had a ton of success for awhile. Coaches in that situation can sometimes try to appease their star instead continuing to push their star to keep working super hard. Not letting a star get a huge ego and thus, stop working big time at his game.

Crean though had little to nothing to do with what made Wade so a star in college and then in the pros skill wise, that being so few people can stop him off the dribble and then score in tons of traffic. His super high level of instincts. It's similar to guys like say Rose and LeBron, two other guys so gifted physically that very few people on the planet could/can keep these type of rare players from beating them off the dribble. Make incredible plays consistently that leave people watching to go WOW. Just to strong, quick, and coordinated for their size while also blessed with fabulous instincts for the game.

Flat out special gifts and gifts which can't be coached into players, that's why they are so rare, so special, and now so wealthy.

[Lennys Tap]

Nobody said that Crean had zero impact on Wade, yet you keep saying over and over that posters are saying that Crean had no impact? Why?

All that those of us who disagree with you and Chicos on this topic have said is that where Wade was ranked by high school recruiting analysts is irrelevant in how skilled Wade actually was. That's it.

Why? Because Dude, that's what he does. When he's not taking things completely out of context he reverts to the old standby - repeat a lie often enough and some people might actually fall for it.

It doesn't take a genius (basketball or otherwise) to make the observation that Wade has done WAY more for Crean's career than vice versa. It's obvious. But Wade is also a loyal and humble guy who remains grateful to his high school and college coaches. Good for him. 84 (and to a lesser degree Chicos) distorts that loyalty and humility into a bizarro world where believing anything short of TC molding a nobody into one of the greatest players on the planet is tantamount to calling Wade a liar, a moron or both.

One of our posters (Murs?) has a line from the great Elvis Costello as his signature: "I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused". It might help with posts like the one from 84 that you referenced.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Lenny, perhaps some people took your posts to imply TC had zero impact on Wade's career.  We all know you don't care for the guy through your many statements.  We all know that you think he can't coach a lick, so is it really that far of a stretch to interpret your original comments in this thread on that particular aspect as meaning anything less than he did nothing for Wade?  That's how I interpreted it...then again, you interpret everything I say as negative against Buzz so maybe I interpret everything you say as negative against Crean.  Funny how all this works. 

I know you've come back to state that isn't what you said, but it seems hardly a reach that someone could get there based on your prior posts.  Or, as you like to frame me and others with their posts...your past is catching up to you.   

Fact of the matter is, TC isn't as bad as you've portrayed him the last few years, nor is Buzz as good and vice versa.  They're coaches.  They have limited ways to make players better, most of it through motivation and painting the picture for the young man that they have the opportunity to be great if they are willing to put in the hard work.  Sometimes a young man needs that push and sometimes it takes a the right coach to press those buttons. 

At the end of the day, Wade feels TC's coaching was crucial in his development to get to where he's at.  I'm sure Wade feels that way about his high school coach as well.   Doesn't really matter, that's what he thinks and only he went through the process, not any of us.   Has Wade helped TC's coaching career...of course.  Has Bellichek won a Superbowl without Tom Brady?  Has Phil Jackson won a NBA title with any teams without Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant?  Has a jockey won the Kentucky Derby riding a mule?   Great players benefit coaches, this should not be surprising to anyone.  To suggest, as you have, that TC's only accomplishments are due to Wade, however, seem off base to me.  You are free to disagree.