How interesting that Big Men now get some special attention from Crean

[🏀]

Also a walk on, not a scholarship player.  Made the team because he's Travis Diener's cousin.  Transferred to Division III Lakeland College in Sheboygan which was a more appropriate level for him.

Sorry, forgot the sarcasm font.

[77ncaachamps]

At a team function a then current big man told our table straight out that MU did zero big man drills in practice. 

We all nearly threw up. 

As would I.

Good points, Reinko.

The inability to capitalize on a Final Four berth and recruit some quality players (esp. bigs) really is mindnumbing (especially looking at the amount of transfers).

But to Crean's credit, he got the Three Amigos in. So I guess it's almost a wash.

[herboturbo]

The inability to capitalize on a Final Four berth and recruit some quality players (esp. bigs) really is mindnumbing (especially looking at the amount of transfers).

But to Crean's credit, he got the Three Amigos in. So I guess it's almost a wash.

This doesn't make sense, he couldn't get recruits after the final four, but he did???

[MUSF]

At a team function a then current big man told our table straight out that MU did zero big man drills in practice. 

We all nearly threw up. 

I've watched Crean practices and individual workouts with assistant coaches.  Both of which included big man drills.  Maybe your mysterious MU big man was mistaken.

[nola03]

The inability to capitalize on a Final Four berth and recruit some quality players (esp. bigs) really is mindnumbing (especially looking at the amount of transfers).

I agree with the other poster who is dumbfounded. It seems like you're upset about not maximizing the Final Four yet you give him great credit for the first class he could really capitalize off the Final Four.

Another interesting point to bring up is that Crean recruited some high quality players and kept the transfers down once we stepped up a class to the Big East. As many have said, Crean being a first time coach needed to learn how to do things and it seems he learned in that regard.

[nola03]

I've watched Crean practices and individual workouts with assistant coaches.  Both of which included big man drills.  Maybe your mysterious MU big man was mistaken.

I double the beginning of this point. I've seen multiple practices -- both between games and day of game walkthroughs -- where big man drills were present and almost a focus.

That being said, the poster who wrote that isn't one to make stuff up.

[MUSF]

This doesn't make sense, he couldn't get recruits after the final four, but he did???

Not to mention the number of Final Four teams who have done much worse than MU since their FF. LSU, Ok. St, Ga Tech, come to mind.

Convetional wisdom isn't always correct guys.
 
That is the problem I have with threads like this. Someone, makes an observation that is generally accepted as fact, in this case MUs difficulty recruiting and developing bigs, and then starts guessing and speculating what the reason might be. The rest of us are then expected to accept these theories as valid opinion when there is absolutely no factual information to back them up.

Let's see...
Crean didn't hire someone to develop bigs after Stephens. - Not true.

Crean tailors his offense around guards not bigs. - When Crean had good offensive bigs, they got plenty of opportunities in his offense. More likely, Crean tailored his offense to the talent on the roster not the roster to the offense.

Crean didn't recruit bigs. - Not true.

I could probably keep going. Look, don't tell me I have to respect your opinion when the facts aren't on your side. Your anti-Crean agenda is clouding your view of reality.  I don't respect the opinion that we never landed on the moon or the world is 3,000 years old and I put the Crean didn't care about recruiting or developing bigs in that same category.

[MUSF]

"I think where the true arguement lays, is did TC value guard play, athleticism, and the 3-point shot more than post players?  In my opinion yes."

As does pretty much every college coach in America because it is the easiest recipe for success. 

This is not where the argument lays.  If it were, then there wouldn't be much argument.

[ChicosBailBonds]

At a team function a then current big man told our table straight out that MU did zero big man drills in practice. 

We all nearly threw up. 

I believe that had already been debunked several times.

[77ncaachamps]

Not to mention the number of Final Four teams who have done much worse than MU since their FF. LSU, Ok. St, Ga Tech, come to mind.

Conventional wisdom isn't always correct guys.
 
That is the problem I have with threads like this. Someone, makes an observation that is generally accepted as fact, in this case MUs difficulty recruiting and developing bigs, and then starts guessing and speculating what the reason might be. The rest of us are then expected to accept these theories as valid opinion when there is absolutely no factual information to back them up.

Let's see...
Crean didn't hire someone to develop bigs after Stephens. - Not true.

Crean taylors his offense around guards not bigs. - When Crean had good offensive bigs, they got plenty of opportunities in his offense. More likely, Crean taylored his offense to the talent on the roster not the roster to the offense.

Crean didn't recruit bigs. - Not true.

I could probably keep going. Look, don't tell me I have to respect your opinion when the facts aren't on your side. Your anti-Crean agenda is clouding your view of reality.  I don't respect the opinion that we never landed on the moon or the world is 3,000 years old and I put the Crean didn't care about recruiting or developing bigs in that same category.

Crean did tailor his offense to the talent of his recruits. I do agree with that statement.

Crean also did recruit bigs, but didn't land many of them.

But who was hired specifically to recruit and develop big men after Stephens?

Was Rabadeux hired with the intent to fill Stephens's shoes and recruit and develop big men? Maybe Bo, but he only lasted a year. Do you even recall or can you reference another assistant introduced as the "coach of the Marquette post players"?

Is it "conventional wisdom" that since Stephens left, the play and quality of MU's post players took a down turn from the production of Jackson and Merritt (heck, Nnamaka or Blankson)?

Also, is it "conventional wisdom" that WITH Stephens on the MSU staff, he has helped recruit and develop Paul Davis and Goran Sutton and "in 2006-07, the Spartan big men led a defensive attack that set a school record in blocks and led the conference in rebound margin for the second time in three years?"

I contend that the loss of Stephens and the inability by Crean to replace him had direct effects on the lack of consistency, development, and production of the Marquette front court.

But that may change in the near future.

I think - though he was on staff for about a year - Buzz's interview (see another post) sheds light on what he saw (as an assistant) as an area that was under-addressed: the development of the front court players. The obvious recruitment of bigger players paired with his statements in the interview shows that he is dedicated to having a more traditional basketball team.

Furthermore, any criticism of Crean's handling of the team while at Marquette should be welcome and not all are simply "Anti-Crean" threads. The same should go for any Marquette player, coach, administrator, etc. These folks are not idols on pedestals.

NOTA BENE: I never asked you to respect my opinion.  

[MUSF]

Crean did tailor his offense to the talent of his recruits. I do agree with that statement.

Crean also did recruit bigs, but didn't land many of them.

But who was hired specifically to recruit and develop big men after Stephens?

Was Rabadeux hired with the intent to fill Stephens's shoes and recruit and develop big men? Maybe Bo, but he only lasted a year. Do you even recall or can you reference another assistant introduced as the "coach of the Marquette post players"?

Is it "conventional wisdom" that since Stephens left, the play and quality of MU's post players took a down turn from the production of Jackson and Merritt (heck, Nnamaka or Blankson)?

Also, is it "conventional wisdom" that WITH Stephens on the MSU staff, he has helped recruit and develop Paul Davis and Goran Sutton and "in 2006-07, the Spartan big men led a defensive attack that set a school record in blocks and led the conference in rebound margin for the second time in three years?"

I contend that the loss of Stephens and the inability by Crean to replace him had direct effects on the lack of consistency, development, and production of the Marquette front court.

But that may change in the near future.

I think - though he was on staff for about a year - Buzz's interview (see another post) sheds light on what he saw (as an assistant) as an area that was under-addressed: the development of the front court players. The obvious recruitment of bigger players paired with his statements in the interview shows that he is dedicated to having a more traditional basketball team.

Furthermore, any criticism of Crean's handling of the team while at Marquette should be welcome and not all are simply "Anti-Crean" threads. The same should go for any Marquette player, coach, administrator, etc. These folks are not idols on pedestals.

NOTA BENE: I never asked you to respect my opinion.  

I don't mind criticism of Crean, really, I don't.  You are building a straw man.  I'm not putting anyone on a pedestal.  What is ridiculous is the inference in the title of the thread and the direct claims by some that Crean didn't care about recruiting or developing post players.

Dude, read your own words.

"How interesting that Big Men now get some special attention from Crean."

Clearly, you think they got no special attention from him when he was at MU.  Now, if you don't think he did an adequate job recruiting and developing post players, that is fine.  You could easily make that argument.  However, this thread started out with a silly insinuation that for some reason it was intentional.  You can back away from that now, but to me it is pretty clear.

[Murffieus]

Thewre are big man drills and there are big man drills (group "big man drills" are of limited value)-----but the best way to develop a postup is to first of all to have a coach on staff who knows how to develop a big.

The next step is to have the big on the side basket for 20 minutes each day with the coach standing right over him going through his reps at first one on nothing and then when the big has the footwork down go one on one with the reps.

I've seen Burke's and Barro's postup development which is next to ZERO-----so it's  obvious they didn't get those reps in practice. Furthermore even if they had developed postup technique it would have been worthless in Crean's offense because since he went to the 3 guard offense the centers are seldom in postup position to get the ball-----they are out on the perimeter setting picks or hiding behind the hoop for dish offs!

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

You pan my statement that MU's offense was "too guard friendly"-----but then you say that they simply decided to go elsewhere-----well that begs the question----WHY DID THEY CHOOSE TO GO ELSEWHERE?

There is no other explanation as Crean NEVER was able to successfully recruit a quality HS postup/big since Merritt in his first recruiting class!

Let me get this straight:

You believe that Crean's offense is the single reason why thousands of big men didn't line-up to enroll at MU every fall?

Again, I'm not arguing about his offense (there are plenty of other postings about that)... I'm simply stating the realistic notion that there are many reasons why a high school player would chose a specific school. Proximity, program history, family history at the school, facilities, conference, coaches, overall scheme and style of play, campus environment, academic advantages, majors available, etc. etc.

You can't just boil down an argument to "Crean didn't have a big man's offense... so he failed". It's not that simple, and you know that, Murf.

C'mon dude.

[wampum77]

Very entertaining to see the inane banter about did we finish 5th or 6th in the BE.  Now let's see, where were we picked to finish and what were Tommy's groupies saying?

[Marquette84]

An interesting example in this stdy is Bobby Capobianco, a player that Crean was trying to land at MU, and eventually did land at IU.

Putting aside the argument that Crean "stole" a guy he was recruiting at MU, keep in mind that this is a kid who could have verballed to Crean at any time prior to April 1, but didn't.

He did, however, verbal to IU within days of Crean's arrival.

According to this article Capobianco liked Huggins and Crean as coaches, but really wanted to play at IU. 
http://blogs.heraldtimesonline.com/iusp/?p=1923

This is a perfect example of a kid who didn't avoid MU because of coaching style (after all, he eventually committed to the very same coach), but apparently because of the school.

On the other hand, Otule, Mbakwe, Capobianco are the types of big men that apparently were willing to sign with Crean. 

I know this doesn't fit the nice little theory that "big men won't play for Crean."  However, I think there is sufficient evidence to suggest that perhaps there are additional issues other than the coach driving the decisions.

[RawdogDX]

Very entertaining to see the inane banter about did we finish 5th or 6th in the BE.  Now let's see, where were we picked to finish and what were Tommy's groupies saying?

this can't be inane banter because you seem to be talking to yourself.  Does that make it an inane rambling? 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Very entertaining to see the inane banter about did we finish 5th or 6th in the BE.  Now let's see, where were we picked to finish and what were Tommy's groupies saying?

Which year?  I remember one year we were picked to finish 12th and we actually finished 4th.  Another year we were picked 3rd and finished 5th.   That's why they play the games.

[The Lens]

I believe that had already been debunked several times.

I was there...now maybe the player was lying, but it was said.

[MUSF]

Thewre are big man drills and there are big man drills (group "big man drills" are of limited value)-----but the best way to develop a postup is to first of all to have a coach on staff who knows how to develop a big.

The next step is to have the big on the side basket for 20 minutes each day with the coach standing right over him going through his reps at first one on nothing and then when the big has the footwork down go one on one with the reps.

I've seen Burke's and Barro's postup development which is next to ZERO-----so it's  obvious they didn't get those reps in practice. Furthermore even if they had developed postup technique it would have been worthless in Crean's offense because since he went to the 3 guard offense the centers are seldom in postup position to get the ball-----they are out on the perimeter setting picks or hiding behind the hoop for dish offs!

Again, complete speculation.

Some of you obviously didn't take Logic 001 at MU.

[77ncaachamps]

Again, complete speculation.

Some of you obviously didn't take Logic 001 at MU.

Murf: "...but the best way to develop a postup is to first of all to have a coach on staff who knows how to develop a big."

MUSF, which assistant coach was the big man specialist during Crean's (post-Stephens) tenure?

[MUSF]

Murf: "...but the best way to develop a postup is to first of all to have a coach on staff who knows how to develop a big."

MUSF, which assistant coach was the big man specialist during Crean's (post-Stephens) tenure?

This thread has officially gotten too long, because I'm pretty sure that was addressed.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

77, I believe this answers your question about coaching.

The notion that he didn't have a big man developer as an assistant just isn't true at all.  Even after Dwayne Stephens left, he still had guys in there that were noted for their development of big men in other places, it just didn't work out at MU. 

Dan Pannagio is considered one of the best coaches in the country at developing big men.  That's what he specialized in with the Trailblazers, that's what he did at Indiana, it's how he's made a living in the coaching profession.   Bo Ellis was the big man coach under Dukiet, O'Neill and Deane, and did a damn good job of it then...and he had the same responsibilities under Crean.  Even Rabadeuax was a big man coach in the past.  He did it under Sampson at OU, working with Najera and Aaron McGhee.

For whatever reason, it just didn't work out at MU.  But they had the coaches in place to develop the players.  So the question becomes was it Crean going away from that style, or was it the players they brought in not having enough talent regardless of how well coached they may have been.

[Murffieus]

Again, complete speculation.

Some of you obviously didn't take Logic 001 at MU.

MUSF----Speculation You say! Well you're mistaken-----the best way to develop a big is in  individual postup drills one on one 20 minutes a day before practice with the coach who knows what he is doing standing over his every  that's not "speculation"------developing a big is easier than developing perimeter people to the guy who knows what he's doing

[ChicosBailBonds]

I was there...now maybe the player was lying, but it was said.

I understand, but what makes no sense is that plenty of people have been to practices and they ran big man drills all the time.  I guess I don't understand the player's comments when faced with the reality of what happened.

[jmayer1]

Speculation? You say! Well you're mistaken-----the best way to develop a big is in  individual postup drills one on one 20 minutes a day before practice with the coach who knows what he is doing standing over his every  that's not "speculation"------that's a fact!

That not what he is saying you are speculating on.  He is saying you are speculating on if they did the drills or worked on it in practice.  You have no idea because you weren't at practice so it is pure speculation on your part.  You act like you can take any guy that is 6' 10" and turn him into Kareem Abdul-Jabaar.  Some guys (Bukre, Barro) don't posess the skils to develop an effective post-up game whether they work on individual drills or not.