Mack to Louisville?

[THRILLHO]

Do you have children ChitownSpaceForRent?  I would suggest you withhold commentary until you do.

I suggest people with children withhold commentary, since they have a clear conflict of interest.

[warriorchick]

I suggest people with children withhold commentary, since they have a clear conflict of interest.

Also, if you have ever been someone's child, you should also withhold commentary.

[Goose]

MU82

I stand corrected. The MU vs. South Carolina game mattered. To be honest, I had completely forget we played them last year. My point was more on how time flies. When I was I thinking about the E8 my youngest was in high school and now a year removed from MU.

So, I guess my point might actually be deeper than I first thought. In this thread I noted how five years can turn into a decade, if things go poorly. Not saying that will happen, but it is amazing how fast time really goes by.

[MU82]

MU82

I stand corrected. The MU vs. South Carolina game mattered. To be honest, I had completely forget we played them last year. My point was more on how time flies. When I was I thinking about the E8 my youngest was in high school and now a year removed from MU.

So, I guess my point might actually be deeper than I first thought. In this thread I noted how five years can turn into a decade, if things go poorly. Not saying that will happen, but it is amazing how fast time really goes by.

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.

And of course, big picture, I agree with chickadee ... in the grand scheme of life, few if any basketball games "matter."

[MU82]

Do you have children ChitownSpaceForRent?  I would suggest you withhold commentary until you do.

My son got married in Chicago on March 10. That also was the date of the state title game for girls basketball in North Carolina. I am the assistant coach for a very good team, and we thought we had a decent chance to win the title. But it was my kid's wedding, and obviously I was not going to miss that.

As I told our head coach back in January: "I hope I'm very disappointed because I'm not with the rest of you at that game." His response: "I hope you're disappointed, too!"

Unfortunately, we both ended up having a different kind of disappointment, as our team lost in the state quarterfinals to the eventual champs.

But yeah, anybody who would miss his own kid's wedding for a basketball game ... please.

[warriorchick]

My son got married in Chicago on March 10. That also was the date of the state title game for girls basketball in North Carolina. I am the assistant coach for a very good team, and we thought we had a decent chance to win the title. But it was my kid's wedding, and obviously I was not going to miss that.

As I told our head coach back in January: "I hope I'm very disappointed because I'm not with the rest of you at that game." His response: "I hope you're disappointed, too!"

Unfortunately, we both ended up having a different kind of disappointment, as our team lost in the state quarterfinals to the eventual champs.

But yeah, anybody who would miss his own kid's wedding for a basketball game ... please.

That being said, the only time it is reasonable to hold your wedding in Japan and expect anyone to attend is if either the bride or the groom grew up there.  Sometimes I think these destination weddings are getting out of hand.

[Billy Hoyle]

Buzz survived the ineptitude and idiocy that was Scott Pilar and Larry Williams but the constant battles left him weary and wary. They messed with Buzz's happy and MU fan have been paying for it ever since.

No, it’s more that Buzz kept pushing boundaries beyond that Marquette was willing to do and should be willing to do, because he knew he had boosters in his back pocket and a contract that gave him an incredible advantage. He wasn’t willing to play by the rules, be a team player, and his ego grew out of control. Nobody was sad to see him leave for a multitude of reasons. The blame is on Buzz.

[warriorchick]

No, it’s more that Buzz kept pushing boundaries beyond that Marquette was willing to do and should be willing to do, because he knew he had boosters in his back pocket and a contract that gave him an incredible advantage. He wasn’t willing to play by the rules, be a team player, and his ego grew out of control. Nobody was sad to see him leave for a multitude of reasons. The blame is on Buzz.

This.  The last thing we needed was to have Marquette become a mini-Louisville with the athletic department running the University.

[Pakuni]

Buzz survived the ineptitude and idiocy that was Scott Pilar and Larry Williams but the constant battles left him weary and wary. They messed with Buzz's happy and MU fan have been paying for it ever since.

In this case, messing with Buzz's happy = not giving him free rein to do as he pleased, consequences and impact on the wider university be darned.
There's enough blame from the breakup to go around, but reducing it to "they messed with Buzz's happy" is a gross and inaccurate oversimplification. At the end of the day, both parties are probably better off for the split. (Unless you're in the win-at-all-costs camp).

[WarriorDad]

Buzz Williams was great at times, but he is 8-7 in the tournament and for those that only care about the tournament around here that isn't setting the world on fire. He had some nice runs and some early burnouts (or non-bids).


Back to Xavier, reportedly Sean Miller and Steve Alford have inquired about the opening in Cincinnati.  https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/xavier/2018/03/30/next-steps-finding-chris-macks-replacement-xavier-basketball/472241002/

[Babybluejeans]

Buzz Williams was great at times, but he is 8-7 in the tournament and for those that only care about the tournament around here that isn't setting the world on fire. He had some nice runs and some early burnouts (or non-bids).

Cheekz, better to be there and lose than to not be there at all.

No, it’s more that Buzz kept pushing boundaries beyond that Marquette was willing to do and should be willing to do, because he knew he had boosters in his back pocket and a contract that gave him an incredible advantage. He wasn’t willing to play by the rules, be a team player, and his ego grew out of control. Nobody was sad to see him leave for a multitude of reasons. The blame is on Buzz.

So, people have said stuff like this since Buzz left. I don't dispute it. But everyone seems fuzzy on what exactly he wanted to do that qualifies as "pushing boundaries beyond that MU was willing to do." Can someone set the record straight: what exactly did Buzz want to do that pushed boundaries?

[Goose]

Baby

He pushed a lot of boundaries and it was not for everyone. Couple that with the push for more money every year and BOT/admin tired of him. IMO, he flat out scared some people and the rest is history.

[Babybluejeans]

Baby

He pushed a lot of boundaries and it was not for everyone. Couple that with the push for more money every year and BOT/admin tired of him. IMO, he flat out scared some people and the rest is history.

I'm still curious to know what he specifically did that pushed boundaries. Are we talking in code here about the fact he recruited "cracked sidewalks" kind of players? Is that all? Everyone keeps saying he pushed boundaries and leaves it at that - I want details man!

[GGGG]

I'm still curious to know what he specifically did that pushed boundaries. Are we talking in code here about the fact he recruited "cracked sidewalks" kind of players? Is that all? Everyone keeps saying he pushed boundaries and leaves it at that - I want details man!

They were concerned about players like Jae Crowder who had no ability to graduate before his eligibility was up as well as issues with recruits like Malek Harris and the Juco dude who was arrested for rape early on in his tenure.

Of course it has been mentioned that he handled the sexual assault accusations poorly as well.

[Pakuni]

I'm still curious to know what he specifically did that pushed boundaries. Are we talking in code here about the fact he recruited "cracked sidewalks" kind of players? Is that all? Everyone keeps saying he pushed boundaries and leaves it at that - I want details man!

Others may be able to provide more details/insight, but among the issues:
- Signing players who were unprepared academically for Marquette and had no interest/ability to complete the coursework.
- A nationally publicized sex assault case in which Buzz got involved (whether that was malice or simple negligence on his part likely depends on your POV of Buzz ... I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt).
- An NCAA rules violation that led to a one-game suspension for Buzz and dismissal of an assistant
- A bar brawl and a separate incident involving a player charged with assaulting a fellow student (who arguably had it coming, but still ...)
- Buzz annually flirting with other programs
- Recruits like Monterale Clark and Malek Harris being accused of criminal conduct (fortunately before arriving on campus).

[Loose Cannon]

The NCAA game vs. South Carolina didn't matter?

I guess none of the games played in this year's NCAA tournament by any teams mattered, either.

You know, Goose, you can make your point that you believe the program is not progressing under Wojo without making silly (and false) statements like that. You're better than that.

Yeah, hard to believe no game matters when you need to go to Scalpers to purchase an NIT game ticket.

[Babybluejeans]

They were concerned about players like Jae Crowder who had no ability to graduate before his eligibility was up as well as issues with recruits like Malek Harris and the Juco dude who was arrested for rape early on in his tenure.

Of course it has been mentioned that he handled the sexual assault accusations poorly as well.

Others may be able to provide more details/insight, but among the issues:
- Signing players who were unprepared academically for Marquette and had no interest/ability to complete the coursework.
- A nationally publicized sex assault case in which Buzz got involved (whether that was malice or simple negligence on his part likely depends on your POV of Buzz ... I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt).
- An NCAA rules violation that led to a one-game suspension for Buzz and dismissal of an assistant
- A bar brawl and a separate incident involving a player charged with assaulting a fellow student (who arguably had it coming, but still ...)
- Buzz annually flirting with other programs
- Recruits like Monterale Clark and Malek Harris being accused of criminal conduct (fortunately before arriving on campus).

Thanks both. The "no academic interest" issue seems insignificant - I mean, did anyone believe Henry Ellenson was even remotely interested in MU's academics? The other points make more sense, though they're mostly problems I'm willing to accept as the price of doing business in modern college sports (so long as they're handled adequately, which Buzz did much of the time but not always). I remember each of the events listed when they occurred, and they never stood out as "program rot." But combined with entitlement/constant $ demands/constant flirting, I can see why the Board would be annoyed.

[Its DJOver]

Thanks both. The "no academic interest" issue seems insignificant - I mean, did anyone believe Henry Ellenson was even remotely interested in MU's academics? The other points make more sense, though they're mostly problems I'm willing to accept as the price of doing business in modern college sports (so long as they're handled adequately, which Buzz did much of the time but not always). I remember each of the events listed when they occurred, and they never stood out as "program rot." But combined with entitlement/constant $ demands/constant flirting, I can see why the Board would be annoyed.

With Buzz there was no one event as big as paying escorts or players like with Slick Rick or Sean Miller, but the smaller problems were starting to pile up, and the constant flirting with other programs certainly did not help.

[Galway Eagle]

Thanks both. The "no academic interest" issue seems insignificant - I mean, did anyone believe Henry Ellenson was even remotely interested in MU's academics? The other points make more sense, though they're mostly problems I'm willing to accept as the price of doing business in modern college sports (so long as they're handled adequately, which Buzz did much of the time but not always). I remember each of the events listed when they occurred, and they never stood out as "program rot." But combined with entitlement/constant $ demands/constant flirting, I can see why the Board would be annoyed.

I wonder if you'd say the same thing if it was your daughter that was one of the two girls that were gang raped. I agree minor recruiting infractions, drunken bar brawls etc happen but sexual assault is not something to accept as the price of doing business in college athletics

[Pakuni]

With Buzz there was no one event as big as paying escorts or players like with Slick Rick or Sean Miller, but the smaller problems were starting to pile up, and the constant flirting with other programs certainly did not help.

Right, it was definitely death by a thousand cuts. And I'm sure that went both ways. There likely was no one big event that soured Buzz on Marquette, but a series of perceived slights.
And, while some love to heap all the blame on Pilarz and Larry Williams, by his own admission Buzz has indicated his fear - as it turns out, a misguided fear - about the future of the Big East was a major factor in him leaving.

[warriorchick]

And, while some love to heap all the blame on Pilarz and Larry Williams, by his own admission Buzz has indicated his fear - as it turns out, a misguided fear - about the future of the Big East was a major factor in him leaving.

That was simply the public excuse.  He wasn't going to go on TV decked out in his VA Tech gear and say, "The Athletic Director and Board of Trustees wouldn't let me have complete free reign, and tried to hold my players accountable for stupid stuff like academics and conduct."

[GooooMarquette]

Thanks both. The "no academic interest" issue seems insignificant - I mean, did anyone believe Henry Ellenson was even remotely interested in MU's academics?

It can work on an occasional basis - like for a 5-star prospect - but it can ruin your APR if it happens too often.

[Goose]

There is no doubt that Buzz polarized many MU folks. I do not think I have ever seen a player or coach that the fans either loved or strongly disliked. His departure was easy for me because he was gone a year before he left.

While I wish Buzz was still here, I understand why the University opted to go the direction they ultimately went. Not my choice on direction, but they drew in the line in the sand and feel comfortable with their decision.

[GooooMarquette]

There is no doubt that Buzz polarized many MU folks. I do not think I have ever seen a player or coach that the fans either loved or strongly disliked. His departure was easy for me because he was gone a year before he left.

While I wish Buzz was still here, I understand why the University opted to go the direction they ultimately went. Not my choice on direction, but they drew in the line in the sand and feel comfortable with their decision.

I didn't know many MU fans who strongly disliked the guy until he mailed in his last season. There were some who were disappointed in how he handled off-court issues, but most people I knew either loved him or were at least OK with him.

If you consider fans' perspectives after a coach leaves, I give you Crean...the guy who recruited DWade and the Amigos, took us to the Final Four, and still got booed for years when his pic came up on the jumbotron.

And a lot of MU fans were pretty pissed with Al in February 1977, but he turned that around in March....

[Goose]

Pakuni

I think you summed things up very well. The only issue I have on any of the incidents noted is the sexual assault. I was a very big fan on Vander Bue as a basketball player during his time at MU, but if University felt he and Buzz were guilty, Blue never should have played another game at MU. Either he was guilty or he was innocent. If guilty, he should have been tossed out on his butt.

If he was guilty and the University let him stay, they are hypocrites IMO. I would have 100% supported that decision. Since he continued his career at MU, that issue should have been closed.

I also would add, the bar fight was something and the University knew about the events, yet they did nothing. Warriorchick said she would not want MU being a mini Louisville, but the administration, not athletic department, ignored that event. Again, there is plenty of guilt to go around.