Mack to Louisville?

[Mr. Nielsen]

Turn the needle?

It's a saying in tv ratings. Massive ratings.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Blue bloods to me are ones that turn the needle. So, there are only two that really turn the needle. It's Duke and Kentucky.

UNC & KU don't turn the needle?

[Billy Hoyle]

Yeah, I thought about those too.  I think the problem with UNLV and Arkansas is that they only won one title, even though they were iconic teams.  On that note what about Michigan, especially if they win it or at least make the final this year?

Michigan doesn't get any special status if they win the title. That would be two titles in 29 years on only their 5th Final Four since the (officially three). Not exactly the sign of an elite program.

UNLV and Arkansas didn't have sustained success or even enough success to fit "temp blue blood" status.  Three Final Fours for UNLV (87, 90, 91) and one title, only two final fours for Arkansas (94 and 95) and only one title.  Neither has sniffed the Final Four since.  Not too much different than Maryland, with two final fours (01, 02) and one title.

As for Georgetown, 5 Final Fours in history (43, 82, 84, 85 and 2007 - national title appearances in all but 2007) and 30 NCAA tourney appearances. Recent history keeps them from being among the "next tier" but they are right up there.

[Mr. Nielsen]

UNC & KU don't turn the needle?

They do, but not to the level of Kentucky & Duke do. UNC and Kansas is the next level behind UK & Duke.

CBS/TBS would have wanted Duke to beat Kansas and it's not even close.

[Silkk the Shaka]

They do, but not to the level of Kentucky & Duke do. UNC and Kansas is the next level behind UK & Duke.

CBS/TBS would have wanted Duke to beat Kansas and it's not even close.

Interesting... I certainly trust Mr. Nielsen on this.

Do you have a needle turner list ranked highest to lowest? would be interested to see where MU and other BEast teams fall.

[StillAWarrior]

I'm inclined to align pretty closely with what TAMU posted on this.

In my opinion, any definition of "blue blood" that excludes North Carolina is immediately suspect.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yeah, I thought about those too.  I think the problem with UNLV and Arkansas is that they only won one title, even though they were iconic teams.  On that note what about Michigan, especially if they win it or at least make the final this year?

Michigan is pretty close to the level right beneath blue blood IMHO. I think what holds them back is some of the sanctions from their hey day.

[frozena pizza]

First of all, I think it's "move" the needle.  We can call those teams the needle movers.

Kansas, Duke, Kentucky and UNC all wear blue but probably have red blood.

[We R Final Four]

Pure blue bloods? Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke, and Kansas. (History and current dominance)
Old Money? Indiana and UCLA (History but lost the dominance)
Next Tier? Louisville, UConn, Michigan State, Arizona, Villanova, Syracuse

Don't think anyone else qualifies for consideration at this point. Louisville, Arizona, and UConn may soon lose their next tier status due to sanctions/conference realignment.

zags have had a lot of recent success, but still yet another level down.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Interesting... I certainly trust Mr. Nielsen on this.

Do you have a needle turner list ranked highest to lowest? would be interested to see where MU and other BEast teams fall.

I wouldn't add the Big East to the list, national list because the schools are small. Not a big alumni base around the country. I would say in numbers I have seen over the years, Butler does very well. TV likes them. It a reason why you see them on CBS almost every year. Marquette does ok, if they win like during the 2011 thru 2013, ratings did well.

Winning matters of course. Rankings matter for TV. People love watching ranked teams. (Of course Ball at UCLA was strong and Young at Oklahoma, ESPN pushes really hard on lottery picks in the last four years.

Networks love Duke & Kentucky! The next would be North Carolina, Kansas, Michigan State, Indiana, Louisville, Michigan, Arizona, Syracuse. Then most Big Ten schools, UCLA, Notre Dame and Florida.

[Silkk the Shaka]

I wouldn't add the Big East to the list national list because the schools are small. Not a big alumni base around the country. I would say in numbers I have seen over the years, Butler does very well. TV likes them. It a reason why you see them on CBS almost every year. Marquette does ok, if they win like during the 2011 thru 2013, ratings did well.

Winning matters of course. Rankings matter for TV. People love watching ranked teams. (Of course Ball at UCLA was strong and Young at Oklahoma, ESPN pushes really hard on lottery picks in the last four years.

Networks love Duke & Kentucky! The next would be North Carolina, Kansas, Michigan State, Indiana, Louisville, Michigan, Arizona, Syracuse. Then most Big Ten schools, UCLA, Notre Dame and Florida.

Interesting. Thanks!

[Mr. Nielsen]

Interesting. Thanks!

Highest viewership for the title game since 1999.

Duke-Wisconsin in 2015, 28.26M
Duke-UConn in 1999, 26.3M
Duke-Arizona in 2001, 23.97M
Duke-Butler in 2010, 23.94M

[Billy Hoyle]

Michigan is pretty close to the level right beneath blue blood IMHO. I think what holds them back is some of the sanctions from their hey day.

yeah, two final fours since 1993, eight NCAA tourney appearances in the last 20 (with an 11-year gap) years and one outright Big Ten regular-season title since 1986 definitely merits being on the cusp of "blue blood." LOL.

Wisconsin is far closer to "blue blood" than Michigan, even if they win the tourney this year.

[WarriorDad]

I'll concede that my past glory comment was over the top.  Really TAMU put the case much better than I did.  The point that I failed to make well (and that I still believe to be true) is that Duke and Kentucky aren't clearly above Ohio State and Louisville is terms of job attractiveness which is the argument you seemed to be making.  IIRC, Louisville has the second largest arena for NCAA basketball behind only Syracus and they didn't have to contribute a penny to build it.  Ohio State, again IIRC, has the largest revenue of any NCAA Athletic Department.  There is definitely resource comparability, if not tradition comparibility.  So, I believe that Big East coaches moving onto those programs is more embarassing than a Big East coach going to Kentucky or Duke as you argued.

Texas A&M is #1 in revenue.  Texas #2. Ohio State #3

[WarriorDad]

Exactly. It's laughable all these posters who claim they would turn down the money.

There is short term money and long term money.  This is not laughable at all.

He can be at X for the rest of his career potentially.  He may not succeed at Louisville and be out before the 7 years. The expectations are much different.  If that were to happen, he would have made more money staying where he is at.  Impossible to predict the future, but it isn't a laughable argument that could be made.

[WarriorDad]

We go nuts all day on social media saying we’re the the best basketball conference in the nation.  We say it over and over. 

Jay Wright stands up and agrees and then walks the walk.

I’d we want this to be true, other schools need to live up.

Back to back summers where the Big Ten & ACC reminded us we’re stepping stones. 

We didn’t lose coaches to Kentucky or Duke but Ohio State & Louisville.   That’s an issue.  It’s saying that to win you need to be at a craptier school with football.  That EVERYTHING the Big East is against. 

To believe this best conference propaganda I need to either see 3 S16 teams or a coach stand up and say no thanks.   

Ohio State and Louisville, two of the top 15 basketball programs of all time.  Why is that a big deal? 

[GoldenWarrior11]

Greg McDermott turned down Ohio State.  That gets overlooked a ton.  From accounts, Ed Cooley and Kevin Willard have been approached by other programs over the past few years and they have stayed put.  No one is going to come after either Mullin or Ewing, since the only college teams they will ever coach are their alma maters.  In addition, many want to use Buzz leaving for Virginia Tech as "evidence" that any P5 school can poach a Big East coach whenever they want.  This is simply not true.  Other than the fact that Buzz took at pay cut to go to VT, it also doesn't take into account the other reasons why Buzz left.  While it is easy to make the case it was due to "football money", I think a majority of those that know can definitely state that it was much, much more complicated than that.  His departure was unique, to say the least.

Jay Wright has turned down overtures from other colleges and even the NBA.  Again, that doesn't fit the narrative that the Big East is in danger long-term, or that the Big East schools are at a disadvantage to P5 schools.  Big East coaches that have been hired away (Crean - IU, Mack - UL, Holtmann - OSU) left for top-15 basketball jobs in the whole country.  Hardly a lateral move. 

Are Big East coaches impervious from taking more prestigious jobs?  Of course not.  The reality is that the Big East is not know for hiring away proven winners from other programs.  They promote assistants (Holtmann), they hire alums (Ewing, Mullin, Jordan) or they hire up-and-comers (Wojo, Willard, Cooley, Wright).  In the case of DePaul (retread) and Creighton (Iowa State), those can be categorized as exceptions. 

Until the day comes where Big East coaches get hired away to coach at places like Washington State, Rutgers, Penn State, Nebraska, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Clemson, etc., I wouldn't place too much concern on Mack leaving representing a huge disadvantage the conference has at retaining coaches.  If anything, blue blood programs hiring Big East coaches should speak volumes as to the success and consistency BE programs have in hiring head coaches.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

yeah, two final fours since 1993, eight NCAA tourney appearances in the last 20 (with an 11-year gap) years and one outright Big Ten regular-season title since 1986 definitely merits being on the cusp of "blue blood." LOL.

Wisconsin is far closer to "blue blood" than Michigan, even if they win the tourney this year.

First of all, I said on the cusp of being the level under blue blood. Not on the cusp of being a blue blood.

History my good friend. Gotta look at the whole history of a program.

Michigan was one of the most dominant teams of the 60s and 70s making the Elite 8 6 times...losing once to Charlotte, 4 times to a blue blood, and once to the Warriors. They had another dominant run in the late 80s and early 90s including a national championship. They've had a bunch of All Americans and top 10 draft picks, and made the Final Four 8 times, tied for 9th most of any school. Of non-blue bloods (UNC, UK, UCLA, Duke, KU, IU) they are 4th in Final Four appearances (Ohio State, Louisville, and Michigan State).

Now as you pointed out, that was followed up by an awful run in the early 2000s. Coach Beilien has corrected that and has taken Michigan the tourney in 8/10 years, made the Sweet 16 4 times, Elite 8 3 times, Final Four twice, national championship game once....and is now favored to go to the national championship again. If they continue on this path, yeah I think they belong in the tier below a blue blood. One of the top 15 programs in college basketball history.

And you want to bring up the Badgers? Their one championship was during WWII. They had a 47 year tournament drought from 1947-1994. Since 2000? Yes, they've been once of the most dominant teams in basketball. 18 tournament appearances, 10 sweet 16s, 4 elite 8s, 3 Final 4s, 1 national runner ups. But that doesn't make up for near 50 years of irrelevancy.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Greg McDermott turned down Ohio State.  That gets overlooked a ton.  From accounts, Ed Cooley and Kevin Willard have been approached by other programs over the past few years and they have stayed put.  No one is going to come after either Mullin or Ewing, since the only college teams they will ever coach are their alma maters.  In addition, many want to use Buzz leaving for Virginia Tech as "evidence" that any P5 school can poach a Big East coach whenever they want.  This is simply not true.  Other than the fact that Buzz took at pay cut to go to VT, it also doesn't take into account the other reasons why Buzz left.  While it is easy to make the case it was due to "football money", I think a majority of those that know can definitely state that it was much, much more complicated than that.  His departure was unique, to say the least.

Couple things:

Greg McDermott didn't turn down OSU. There was never an offer. Just a power play on Creighton by McD.
Buzz did not take a pay cut. VT paid him well. Base salary is not the only thing to look at in a contract.
I'm not aware of Kevin Willard being approached by anyone of note.
Cooley's name has been out there but I don't remember if it was for any significant jobs.

I think most objective observers would say the Louisville job is better than any job in the Big East. I think most would also say that Ohio State is better than every job in the Big East except maybe Villanova. Big East coaches getting poached by the likes of these programs is a testament to the quality of coaches in our league.

I think what Goose and others were driving at, is that Villanova is likely the only job in the Big East that most would put in the top 15-20 in the nation. Other conferences have more and lot of that has to do with football money. Personally, I think the Big East makes up for it by having a lot of jobs in the 20-40 range, while a lot of the other power conferences have quality at the top and crap at the bottom. But that is a more dangerous place to be. Schools like Louisville, Michigan State, Villanova can falter but are almost sure to get back up again. Schools in the middle can falter and may never get back up.

[GooooMarquette]

Greg McDermott turned down Ohio State.  That gets overlooked a ton.  From accounts, Ed Cooley and Kevin Willard have been approached by other programs over the past few years and they have stayed put.  No one is going to come after either Mullin or Ewing, since the only college teams they will ever coach are their alma maters.  In addition, many want to use Buzz leaving for Virginia Tech as "evidence" that any P5 school can poach a Big East coach whenever they want.  This is simply not true.  Other than the fact that Buzz took at pay cut to go to VT, it also doesn't take into account the other reasons why Buzz left.  While it is easy to make the case it was due to "football money", I think a majority of those that know can definitely state that it was much, much more complicated than that.  His departure was unique, to say the least.

Jay Wright has turned down overtures from other colleges and even the NBA.  Again, that doesn't fit the narrative that the Big East is in danger long-term, or that the Big East schools are at a disadvantage to P5 schools.  Big East coaches that have been hired away (Crean - IU, Mack - UL, Holtmann - OSU) left for top-15 basketball jobs in the whole country.  Hardly a lateral move. 

Are Big East coaches impervious from taking more prestigious jobs?  Of course not.  The reality is that the Big East is not know for hiring away proven winners from other programs.  They promote assistants (Holtmann), they hire alums (Ewing, Mullin, Jordan) or they hire up-and-comers (Wojo, Willard, Cooley, Wright).  In the case of DePaul (retread) and Creighton (Iowa State), those can be categorized as exceptions. 

Until the day comes where Big East coaches get hired away to coach at places like Washington State, Rutgers, Penn State, Nebraska, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Clemson, etc., I wouldn't place too much concern on Mack leaving representing a huge disadvantage the conference has at retaining coaches.  If anything, blue blood programs hiring Big East coaches should speak volumes as to the success and consistency BE programs have in hiring head coaches.

I agree with much of this, and I don't see Ewing or Mullin having Mack-level success. But if they do, what if UK, Duke or UNC comes calling? I'd like to assume they'd say no....but then again I figured Mack would never leave X unless he was fired.

[brewcity77]

Greg McDermott turned down Ohio State.  That gets overlooked a ton.

I think it gets overlooked because I'm not sure it happened. At the time I remember early rumors of a Big East coach being involved, then a public report that McDermott said no. Felt like Holtmann was hired almost immediately after. I think it was Holtmann from the start.

I've talked to a few people that cast shade on the idea McDermott was a target. It made for a feel good story in Omaha, but I'm not sure there was ever any substance to it.

[dgies9156]

Too many of us in here are defining Blue Bloods in the NCAA on history. Depending on how far back you go, just about any of the Top 75 to 100 programs in the NCAA could be considered a  Blue Blood Program.

Here's how I would define it:

1) Sustained recent success.
2) Coaching stability.
3) Ability to get an audience with virtually any recruit in the United States.
4) Reasonable annual expectation for a Final Four.

In this vein, the Blue Bloods are Duke, UNC, Kansas and Kentucky. I'd put Villanova in this class as well.

There are a couple of schools circling Blue Blood status. Likely Michigan, Virginia, Michigan State, Florida, Arizona, Syracuse.

Fallen Blue Bloods include UCLA, Indiana, Ohio State, UConn, Louisville and a host of others. Mack, he hopes, will restore Loserville.

What do you folks think, Scoopers?

[GoldenWarrior11]

Seriously, fellas:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2017/06/08/greg-mcdermott-turns-down-ohio-state-stay-creighton/102629442/

[Its DJOver]

Too many of us in here are defining Blue Bloods in the NCAA on history. Depending on how far back you go, just about any of the Top 75 to 100 programs in the NCAA could be considered a  Blue Blood Program.

Here's how I would define it:

1) Sustained recent success.
2) Coaching stability.
3) Ability to get an audience with virtually any recruit in the United States.
4) Reasonable annual expectation for a Final Four.

In this vein, the Blue Bloods are Duke, UNC, Kansas and Kentucky. I'd put Villanova in this class as well.

There are a couple of schools circling Blue Blood status. Likely Michigan, Virginia, Michigan State, Florida, Arizona, Syracuse.

Fallen Blue Bloods include UCLA, Indiana, Ohio State, UConn, Louisville and a host of others. Mack, he hopes, will restore Loserville.

What do you folks think, Scoopers?

I think this is pretty good. I might add ability to win across multiple coaches. There are exactly 2 eras in UCLA basketball, with Wooden and without. Same with Knight at I4, same with Al at MU.

Kentucky has won with multiple coaches, so has Kansas, so has UNC. Duke gets a pass because their hall of fame coach is still there and is approaching his 40th year there, and when he does retire, I fully expect Duke to have their pick of almost any coach in America. 

Nova might fall under this category, but I think there would be too much time between coaches. Obviously if they continue to win the way they have for the last 3 years that could change but any school can luck into a great hire once. If they have back to back hall of famers that stick around for a decade+ you're getting into blue blood territory.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Article stating Buzz's VT contract was less than that at MU:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/buzz-williams-contract-to-coach-virginia-tech-basketball-offers-several-incentives-and-perks/2014/05/21/d1a1fbd6-e02b-11e3-8dcc-d6b7fede081a_story.html?utm_term=.399e91de5673