Buzz Williams this year

[mu_hilltopper]

Again, plenty of posters are.  That is where the car thing came from... He got a Ferrari, all he needed to do is turn the key.  Sounds like discrediting to me. 

It MAY be "discrediting" from the lofty platform of "coach of the year type genius," sure.

But I challenge you to honestly point the finger at people who are "discrediting" him in anything but a "great job this year, let's judge him based on 1 more year or so."  Seriously, I'd like some quotes from guys, with full context, from guys you think are discrediting him in a less-than-legit way.

What you'll find is that every single guy has said something along the lines of "Buzz has done well this year.  Factually, his players are elite.  Let's wait a year to call him awesome, see how he does when times are tough." -- That's discrediting???  Isn't that a legitimate way of evaluation???   Wouldn't anything but that, be premature in crowning a genius coach?

What's happened is there are Buzz fans that will look for any insult, any perceived sleight, and pounce, accusing the speaker of bastardhood.  (Or, specifically calling them "sh1tbags.")

You find these "negative" guys and ask them.  What's Buzz' score 1-10 so far: 

I'll give him a solid 9.5, YTD.  Which is a fantastic score.  Besides a couple glitches, I could NOT be more pleased this year with the team, and the coaches.

But it's like diving or gymnastics.  Your score is determined by your performance, multiplied by a level of difficulty.   (Oh, my, there I go, right after giving him a huge compliment, I'm discrediting him??)

People aren't measured ONLY on the basis of how they perform during good times.  The cream rises to the top when times are rough. -- This year, the BE is super tough, but next year, the coaching level-of-difficulty will be 10x harder. 

If Buzz gets us in to the NCAAs NEXT year, us "sh1tbags" will call for Buzz to get a 300% raise and 10 year contract.   -- And honestly, if he gets us back to the NCAAs sometime in the following 3 years, he's a keeper.  Gosh, I am such a tough grader!


(Ironically, if you were to ask Buzz himself how he's doing.. you know what he'd say .. something like "I’m not smart enough to figure that all out.")

[mu_hilltopper]

Chicos response is "beautifully said." I say if you lie down with dogs you get fleas. Peace.

Looks like you can't make your point without personal insults.

"peace"

[Blackhat]

I have read only the topic and first couple of posts, so sorry if this is redundant:

But, hey sh1tbags, Buzz "inherited" a team picked to finish 6th in the Big East.  There have been 2 freaking teams since the Big East expanded four years ago to win ***10*** games each year.  We're sitting at 12-2.  Even if Gottlieb and other sword swallowers out there got their wishes over the final games of the regular season, we still have done what counts - we show and prove.

The fact of the matter is you've got three seniors that would each love to play at the next level.. and you know what I see?  I see them yelling at a JUCO harda$$ working transfer when he doesn't shoot and isn't 'greedy' enough.

This team is well coached.  This team has exceeded most people's expectations.  I'm not completely sold on Buzz, but to whine and try to discredit him because of what 'came to him' is ridiculous.

GO WARRIORS!!!!!!!!!!

I've read all the posts and I don't think anyone is whinning about what Buzz has done to date.   It's just some people get hyper and characterize your comments that way if you point out any negative or yet to be determined reality regarding Buzz.  Herd mentality is not needed on this site.  

[Pakuni]

Weren't we preseason top 15?  Pretty much where we've been all year long and if we lose 2 of the next 3, likely where we will end up? 

Actually, 16th ... now they're 9th. And I doubt they plummet 6-7 spots with losses to #2 and #1, unless they're 20+ point losses.
Regardless, wasn't MU projected to finish 6th in the Big East? Isn't it fair to say this team so far has exceeded just about everyone's expecations, certainly your own?
If 6th is a BMW, what's first through fifth?
Nobody is suggesting Buzz didn't inherit substantial talent. But:

1. It's arguable that this team is less talented than last year's (AP Preseason poll #11) yet is playing better.
2. Saying all that was required of the coach was to "turn the key" is, indeed, discrediting the work he's done. A monkey can turn a key. A monkey doesn't coach a team to a 23-4 record and excel in the country's toughest conference with an undersized roster and no bench while instituting new offensive and defensive philosophies/schemes.

As mualum2002 states well, this year is not the be all and end all when it comes to judging Buzz as a coach. Yet to pretend what he's accomplished so far is mostly insignificant, as had been implied by some,

[ChicosBailBonds]

Actually, 16th ... now they're 9th. And I doubt they plummet 6-7 spots with losses to #2 and #1, unless they're 20+ point losses.
Regardless, wasn't MU projected to finish 6th in the Big East? Isn't it fair to say this team so far has exceeded just about everyone's expecations, certainly your own?
If 6th is a BMW, what's first through fifth?
Nobody is suggesting Buzz didn't inherit substantial talent. But:

1. It's arguable that this team is less talented than last year's (AP Preseason poll #11) yet is playing better.
2. Saying all that was required of the coach was to "turn the key" is, indeed, discrediting the work he's done. A monkey can turn a key. A monkey doesn't coach a team to a 23-4 record and excel in the country's toughest conference with an undersized roster and no bench while instituting new offensive and defensive philosophies/schemes.

As mualum2002 states well, this year is not the be all and end all when it comes to judging Buzz as a coach. Yet to pretend what he's accomplished so far is mostly insignificant, as had been implied by some,

Sorry, 16th.  Yes, they've exceeded my expectations.  No one is saying all he had to do is turn the key.  Why do you keep bringing up that analogy?  Where did anyone say it was that simple?

As far as this team being less talented then last year, I'm not sure I agree. In the depth category, certainly.  But when you factor in talent you also factor in experience and there is no one in the country as experienced and talented (in combo) then this team.  No one.

Buzz, again, for the millionth time, has done a great job.  He's also had it easier then most with what he inherited (is that a dis?  No, it's reality).  Again, he's done a great job.

PS  I suspect we'll end up in the polls closer to 16th then to 9th but we'll see.  Those same stellar coaches picked Notre Dame 4th including one vote to win the conference. If I recall, they picked Marquette 12th a few years ago.  Coaches just slap something on paper, they don't put any time in it.  I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in what the coaches picked in preseason.

PSS Please be careful with the monkey comments.  The people in this country are very sensitive these days about monkey analogies. 

[muwarrior87]

if we are a top 3 or 4 seed, i would say yes. no reason to lose in the first round when seeded that high. a second round loss could also be disappointing.

[Pakuni]

Sorry, 16th.  Yes, they've exceeded my expectations.  No one is saying all he had to do is turn the key.  Why do you keep bringing up that analogy?  Where did anyone say it was that simple?

Here's what mu_hilltopper said in reply #7 of this thread:

"Yup, sorry, but chalk me up as someone who thinks Buzz inherited a BMW.  Guess what?  It's been a pretty good ride so far, just needed someone to turn the key."

As far as this team being less talented then last year, I'm not sure I agree. In the depth category, certainly.  But when you factor in talent you also factor in experience and there is no one in the country as experienced and talented (in combo) then this team.  No one.

Like I said, it's arguable. Experience/development weighs on the side of this team being more talented. But they're clearly much weaker at the 5 position, have less depth (depth is part of a team's talent, isn't it?) and have no shooters coming off the bench as was the case last year with Fitzgerald.
Last year, MU was preseason #11 in the AP and picked third in the Big East. This year it was #16 and sixth. Obviously those are just projections, but they do illustrate expectations.

[Lennys Tap]

Looks like you can't make your point without personal insults.

"peace"



Let's see. You begin your post by saying I'm full of "crap". Not just regular crap, mind you, but "serious crap". Awfully sensitive for one who begins his diatribe with personal insults, aren't we?

If you reread my entire post, you'll notice that I concede that you seem sincere in your support of Buzz and the team. I'm just not so sure about everyone else on these boards. Hence our disagreement.

[mu_hilltopper]

And I also said:

Yes, Buzz deserves a chunk of credit.  Absolutely!

and

Every single fan out there, every single one who had even the smallest inkling that Buzz wasn't right for the job back in April .. EVERY SINGLE ONE wants this team to win, wants the program to succeed, and wants that sooner rather than later, meaning whoever is at the helm is wished success, including Buzz.


and

I'll give him a solid 9.5, YTD.  Which is a fantastic score.  Besides a couple glitches, I could NOT be more pleased this year with the team, and the coaches.

[mu_hilltopper]

Let's see. You begin your post by saying I'm full of "crap". Not just regular crap, mind you, but "serious crap". Awfully sensitive for one who begins his diatribe with personal insults, aren't we?

If you reread my entire post, you'll notice that I concede that you seem sincere in your support of Buzz and the team. I'm just not so sure about everyone else on these boards. Hence our disagreement.

My quote was "That's a bunch of crap.  Serious crap."

There's a difference between "You are crap." and "That is crap."  One is a personal insult, the other is not. 

Thank you for believing my sincerity.  I will go further: I will vouch for EVERYONE's sincerity.  We all, sincerely, want MU to succeed.  We're fans.  End of story.   

There's a very tiring, never ending battle of people who infer to be superior fans as they defend every sleight against every aspect of the program.  This thread is exhibit 5000.  Reasonable, sincere fans, can decide to take a long term view of how good a coach is -- yet this is met with derision and names like "sh1tbags" and intimations that we're dogs with fleas.   

[Lennys Tap]

Chicos,

Regarding your previous PPS - Mu was #16 in the AP preseason poll and now stand #8. You may be right that this team will ultimately finish close to expectations (#16) given the brutal end of season schedule. In that case we will agree that they lived up to expectations and I assume everyone will be happy. Last year we were rated #11 in preseason and finished 25th. I would say that constitutes significant under achievement. Yet virtually noone called TC out on this (not saying he should be). Suppose we fall apart and and finish among the "others receiving votes"(the equivalent of last years under achieving). Will you view Buzz's first year as the equivalent of TC's last? And does anything better than that constitute improvement?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Chicos,

Regarding your previous PPS - Mu was #16 in the AP preseason poll and now stand #8. You may be right that this team will ultimately finish close to expectations (#16) given the brutal end of season schedule. In that case we will agree that they lived up to expectations and I assume everyone will be happy. Last year we were rated #11 in preseason and finished 25th. I would say that constitutes significant under achievement. Yet virtually noone called TC out on this (not saying he should be). Suppose we fall apart and and finish among the "others receiving votes"(the equivalent of last years under achieving). Will you view Buzz's first year as the equivalent of TC's last? And does anything better than that constitute improvement?

Lenny's, I will not speak for Chicos, but I do have to say that maybe the disagreements here are more based upon criteria than actual performance.

Rankings might be your criteria (not a bad one to use)
Tournament wins are certainly some people's criteria (just check the TC blasting after his tournament losses)
RPI might be some people's criteria
etc. etc.

The problem is that everybody is using a different system to evaluate if Buzz is doing a good job or if he is "better" than TC.

If I'm being honest, I had MU picked to go either 13-5 or 14-4 in the conference. Right now they are on track for that. Do I think Buzz is doing a good job? Certainly. Did I have high expectations given the returning players? Yes.

[Lennys Tap]

My quote was "That's a bunch of crap.  Serious crap."

There's a difference between "You are crap." and "That is crap."  One is a personal insult, the other is not. 

Thank you for believing my sincerity.  I will go further: I will vouch for EVERYONE's sincerity.  We all, sincerely, want MU to succeed.  We're fans.  End of story.   

There's a very tiring, never ending battle of people who infer to be superior fans as they defend every sleight against every aspect of the program.  This thread is exhibit 5000.  Reasonable, sincere fans, can decide to take a long term view of how good a coach is -- yet this is met with derision and names like "sh1tbags" and intimations that we're dogs with fleas. 





When you vouch for "everyone" be careful.  If you do and are ultimately proved wrong you can (maybe unfairly) be tarnished by the same brush. This was my admonition to you. I never insulted you personally or otherwise. Hope you don't find this critique of your reading comprehension skills offensive, but words like always, everyone, etc., are ALMOST never correct.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos,

Regarding your previous PPS - Mu was #16 in the AP preseason poll and now stand #8. You may be right that this team will ultimately finish close to expectations (#16) given the brutal end of season schedule. In that case we will agree that they lived up to expectations and I assume everyone will be happy. Last year we were rated #11 in preseason and finished 25th. I would say that constitutes significant under achievement. Yet virtually noone called TC out on this (not saying he should be). Suppose we fall apart and and finish among the "others receiving votes"(the equivalent of last years under achieving). Will you view Buzz's first year as the equivalent of TC's last? And does anything better than that constitute improvement?

No.  Because I don't think a preseason poll out of the blue when these guys that do the polling are known for not even voting (having assistants do it, having SIDs do it, having their mom do it) is a good measuring stick.  Obviously some people disagree.  So to answer your question,  I don't think a preseason poll should determine whether we achieved or underachieved.  Incidentally, MU finished 21st last year when the games were actually played, not a preseason poll when no games are played, no injuries factored in, etc.

People can use all kinds of measuring sticks, but I think a preseason media poll or coaches poll is not a good one.  It's a total guess without anything really being played.

Look at the RPI this year.  MU is at 21, last year MU finished at 19.  Does that mean MU was better last year?  Does that mean MU is underachieving this year?  Personally, I think comparing years is silly.  Teams are different, competition is different, schedules are different.  Is Wisconsin as good this year as last year?  Hell no.  Yet MU beat them both years...what does it mean?  Are the victories the same?  Was one on the road and one at home?  You can make this analysis of every game on the schedule in every year if you wish.  Each year is different, each year in a silo in my opinion.

Last year, I thought MU did exactly what I thought they would.  We had a good season, played well in the BET, played well in the NCAAs.  Lost on a heartbreaker to top 10 team on a last second shot.

This year, MU has OVERACHIEVED from my predictions....I'm pleasantly surprised. Though my predictions were based on a new coach and the loss of Barro and Mbakwe, I also said they had the ability (if they maximized) to be where they are at currently (my predictions had a wide variable to them due to all the new variables. Kudos to the staff and players for getting there so far this year.

Again I'll ask, why is it an EITHER / OR scenario?  I really don't get it.  Crean did incredible things for this program.  Buzz has done a great job in year one.  It is possible that both did/are doing great things, yet so many here want to make it as if that's not the case.  I don't get it. 

As for the fleas comment, whatever.

[ErickJD08]

Yup, sorry, but chalk me up as someone who thinks Buzz inherited a BMW.  Guess what?  It's been a pretty good ride so far, just needed someone to turn the key.

In case someone was wondering if anyone on this board was discrediting Buzz.

[mu_hilltopper]

repeating:

And I also said:

Yes, Buzz deserves a chunk of credit.  Absolutely!

and

Every single fan out there, every single one who had even the smallest inkling that Buzz wasn't right for the job back in April .. EVERY SINGLE ONE wants this team to win, wants the program to succeed, and wants that sooner rather than later, meaning whoever is at the helm is wished success, including Buzz.


and

I'll give him a solid 9.5, YTD.  Which is a fantastic score.  Besides a couple glitches, I could NOT be more pleased this year with the team, and the coaches.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I didn't see the key s comment....thanks for pointing them out Pakuni. 


I think Hilltopper is saying, much like I've said with the Barry Switzer comments, that getting this team to the NCAAs any number of coaches could do.  That's not a dis on Buzz because people are ignoring the additional comments.


I do believe that any competent coach could get this team to the NCAAs.  But Buzz has done MORE than just that (I believe Hilltopper has said the same thing).  Thus, there is no "dis" at all.  People need to focus on the entire message. 


I guess I would put the question out to those that are sensitive on this issue.  With the team that came back this year, 4.5 starters, 4 seniors, 1 junior, two NBA likely players, three time NCAA participants, three all Big East players.....do those folks believe that MU was in jeopardy of not making the NCAAs?  Do those folks believe only one or two coaches could get them to the NCAAs?

Now, please note how I asked the question.  I'm trying to be clear as a bell here in that many coaches could have gotten MU to the dance this year, but what Buzz has done is GO BEYOND THAT.  He's done a great job.  That's why when people say that most coaches could guide this team to the NCAAs, it's not a dis....it's reality. 

Unless of course people disagree and feel only a handful of coaches could have done it.  I guess we'll disagree.   

Tip of my hat to Buzz....he not only rolled the ball out and turned the key, he went above and beyond.  Now the ultimate proof in the pudding will be over the next few years, but the man has the worth ethic, the desire, the know-how to get it done.  For all of us as fans, we want that to happen.  Taking a step back would be devestating.

[Lennys Tap]

Chicos,

I have never been in the camp of those who denigate TC and his contributitions to MU. I agree with you that when one considers the totality of his work he ranks as Marquette's 2nd most successful coach. He is probably closer to 10th than 1st as Al laps the field but that doesn't diminish his accomplishments.

I further agree that, for this year anyway, TC left the program in good shape. Top 20 team, lower half of the first division in Big East, 5th or 6th seed in the NCAA's was the expectation. That's what the "experts" and most of the MU faithful were looking/hoping for. I count myself in that majority, though I was concerned that with an inexperienced and unproven coach that we would fall short of these lofty goals. I think you shared my concerns - it's why you picked us 9-9 in the conference.

When it became clear that our reservations about Buzz's coaching abilities were unfounded we parted ways. I was ecstatic to be proven wrong, admitted it, and am thoroughly enjoying what is thus far our 2nd best team since 1978. You and others chose a different path. Suddenly these very good players TC left behind were great. Suddenly, the conference you guys defended even in years it didn't deserve it is not as good as advertised. Buzz has the team playing a more passive style of defense early in games to avoid foul trouble (the one thing this extremely thin team can't afford) and tightens the screws late in games. This has worked out brilliantly yet the naysayers want only to talk about how "statistically" this team has regressed this year defensively. This is just the tip of the iceberg on the way people on this board have denigrated the fantastic job that he has done. This is the best coached team at MU in a loooooong time. For me that's enough for now. I'll let you guys worry about what his legacy will be. From what I've seen I'm not too worried. Don't think Buzz is either.
 

[Stringer Bellenson]

Obviously much of the credit goes to the players, but there is one thing in particular this year that I think Buzz deserves credit for.  The last few seasons, I would’ve spent the last Georgetown game, the Providence game, Wisconsin, NC State, (basically any close, back and forth game), just waiting for them to mess up.  This past weekend was a prime example of the type of game MU would’ve had a let down in. Whether it was just a couple of bad plays that proved crucial in the end, or a mental lapse, or a couple bad shots or passes, I just wasn’t always confident that they were going to pull it off.  These type games were always brutal to watch bc I felt like they weren’t always in control, and I just always had a bad feeling (I’m not a pessimist either).  It was like they were chickens with their heads cut off sometimes.  However this year, it seems they are so much more in their element and in control.  I find watching close games played at this frantic pace to be much more of a peaceful viewing experience this season.  (I suppose it’s possible that others didn’t see it this way, this is just the vibe I got.)

I won’t deny that much of this has to do with the maturity and experience of the big 4, but I think Buzz deserves credit for recognizing the strengths of this team.  The players seem to be playing comfortably and within themselves.  They aren’t forcing things, they aren’t passing up shots, yet they are still unselfish.  Just watching Matthews and McNeal driving to the basket at the end of the Georgetown game and letting the game come to them seems to be something that was lacking in the past.  I liked Crean, and recognize Buzz literally and figuratively wouldn’t be in the position he is today if not for Crean, but sometimes his offense seemed to be restricting on the natural abilities and strengths of the team.  (I think this is evident by the way Matthews has progressed)  I like the way he trusts his players and just lets them play, especially in some of these close road games, though he may not have this luxury next year.  Some might argue that Buzz should have done something at the end of the South Florida game, but I don't think MU loses if McNeal doesn't foul out. It will be interesting to see if Buzz continues to adapt to the strengths of his future recruits, being that it sounds like they will be more wing orientated in the future.  Either way, I think Buzz should get credit for maximizing the team’s production by playing to their strengths.  Doing something so simple and obvious may not make him a genius, but it's practical and has worked.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos,
 He is probably closer to 10th than 1st as Al laps the field but that doesn't diminish his accomplishments.

 

Sounds like you are dissing Crean.      


It's obvious you've seen enough of Buzz to make your decision, I just haven't.  Too many coaches that have done this exact same thing and crapped the bed down the road.  Brewser Flint, Steve Lavin, Paul Hewitt, etc, etc.  That doesn't mean Buzz will, but I need more then one year with this inherited talent to say he's the guy.  I hope he is, he certainly has done a wonderful job this year (super wonderful, I wouldn't want to be categorized as "luke warm" (sic)).