Florida Gulf Coast

[DonCornholeone]

I'm about 5 minutes from Florida Gulf Coast University right now.  Unfortunately they aren't playing while I'm here (missed their game against Butler by a few hours), otherwise I'd stop by and scout a game!  I think their 3-9 record tells us all we need to know, though.

[TallTitan34]

We have a tough strech of games at the end of the season so a guarunteed win won't be a bad thing considering the selection commitee looks at your recent record.

In our last ten games we play:
@ Syracuse
@ Villanova
@ Notre Dame
Pittsburgh
Louisville
Georgetown

I'm not saying these games aren't winable, but it will be a difficult stretch nonetheless.

[Marquette84]

  I think their 3-9 record tells us all we need to know, though.

Wouldn't the fact that FGC played Butler close--and led by as many as 9 in the game--also tell us something we need to know?

I think the appropriate scouting is that FGC is certainly not a great team, but they're not as terrible as people initially thought, either. As they showed against Butler, if you let your guard down they are capable of holding a highly regarded team close.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Seriously, who are you trying to sell this schedule to? Yourself?

[TallTitan34]

PRN would I love to play big name teams every night?  Yeah I would. 

But I would also like to make the NCAA tournament.  While they do hurt our SOS bye games are necessary to pad our record like it or not.  If we take care of our opponents in Big East play it won't matter.  If we don't take care of our Big East opponents we don't deserve to be in the tournament.

What teams do you want to play PRN?  Exact team name.  Keep in mind they already have commitments to other teams on given dates in the future.  Also keep in mind you will need to schedule these teams around the Milwaukee Bucks schedule.

DePaul gets the big names don't they?  Well they also have the city of Chicago on their side and big schools love to be seen there for recruiting purposes.  Like it or not Milwaukee isn't Chicago. 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Titan -- With my last post, I was not complaining about the schedule. I am simply pointing out that certain posters seem to want to take our weak schedule -- called into question by national publications like Sports Illustrated -- and spin it into something it's not. It's an embarrassing non-conf. home schedule and playing Florida Gulf Coast the last week of the season is merely the icing on the (cup) cakes.

Marquette84 even went so far on the other board as to start a thread claiming that this is the best home schedule MU has had. Ever! It's arguments like that -- that he could not possibly believe -- that have led me to believe that he is either employed by Marquette or related to somebody within the basketball program. It's also why I suggest he's basically arguing with himself. You cannot reasonably claim it's a good non-conf. schedule. It's simply an impossible opinion to hold and is basically like yelling "FIRE!" in crowded theater.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It's a non-conference schedule that equates to 95% of other schools non-conference schedules in major conferences.

Go to other message boards, and their fans are b i t c h i n g all the time too.


Move on, it's not changing because it can't for too many reasons talked about here for umpteen years.  It ain't changing.

Meanwhile we have the 12th best team in the country according to the polls and about to enter Big East conference play in the currently 3rd rated conference in the United States.

Let's enjoy the ride.

[wadesworld]

I think the appropriate scouting is that FGC is certainly not a great team, but they're not as terrible as people initially thought, either. As they showed against Butler, if you let your guard down they are capable of holding a highly regarded team close.

Copin State was also within 2 at halftime against Indiana 12 1/2 hours after they finished getting blown out by 47 to us...only to lose by 35. Just because teams can stay close for a period of time against good teams doesn't mean they're good.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Move on, it's not changing because it can't for too many reasons talked about here for umpteen years.  It ain't changing.

I understand! I did not start this thread.

But the idea of starting a thread claiming it's our best schedule ever -- or claiming because FGC stayed with Butlter for a few minutes that they're a decent opponent-- is just inflammatory. Wouldn't you agree?

[TallTitan34]

I just like the idea of having a gimme win during that tough stretch towards the end.  The team seems to fade a bit during that last month.

My apoligies PRN.  I didn't know about the post on the other board.  I stopped reading over there.

[Marquette84]

Marquette84 even went so far on the other board as to start a thread claiming that this is the best home schedule MU has had. Ever! It's arguments like that -- that he could not possibly believe -- that have led me to believe that he is either employed by Marquette or related to somebody within the basketball program. It's also why I suggest he's basically arguing with himself. You cannot reasonably claim it's a good non-conf. schedule. It's simply an impossible opinion to hold and is basically like yelling "FIRE!" in crowded theater.

I really don't care if you like me or not--I'm not trying to win any popularity contests.  But must you you turn every comment I make into a personal attack?  

Its getting old.  

I don't like your posts much either, but I don't attack you personally--I criticize the content of your posts, the lack of logic, or provide the other side of the argument which you left out.

If you think I'm wrong for suggesting that we shouldn't take a team that built a 9 point lead on Butler lightly, then argue that. I'm all for reading your basketball insight that explains why we shouldn't take that seriously.

But stop with the personal attacks already.

*** It's also why I suggest he's basically arguing with himself. You cannot reasonably claim it's a good non-conf. schedule. It's simply an impossible opinion to hold and is basically like yelling "FIRE!" in crowded theater.

Let's start here--I said it was a good schedule overall--not a good non-conference schedule.

I said that any perceived deficiencies in the non-conference portion were more than offset by the quality of the conference games, resulting in the best schedule ever.  Murff found one year that might be close.  So at worst, this is the 2nd best schedule ever.

Now we'll see if you really have the abitliy to engage in a basketball debate and something other than personal attacks.

If you disagree, then tell me which year had a better schedule.  Engage on the subject--not the poster.  This is a perfect opportunity for you to prove that you can post something other than complaints.

If you think 1986-87 was better, tell me why.

Here's another one for you:

Would you rather see four .500 teams from major conferences?  Or would you rather see two top 10 teams and two cupcakes?   Because this is the heart of the difference between you and me.

I'd much rather see two top 10 teams and two cupcakes than four mediocre teams.    

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

If calling into question a thread you started on another board is a personal attack then I am deeply sorry.

[Marquette84]

My apoligies PRN.  I didn't know about the post on the other board.  I stopped reading over there.

For the record, PRN misrepresented the nature of the post--let me summarize.

My point was that in all the debate over the non-conference schedule, we've lost sight of the fact that we have an amazing set of home games--two pre-season top -10 picks in Louisville and Georgetown.  A third team that has moved into the top 10 in Pittsburgh.  Games against two traditional rivals in Notre Dame and DePaul.  4 more Big East matchups.  A much-discussed game agaisnt UWM.  A very strong mid-major in IUPUI.

I think that when you take the entire schedule into consideration, this is one of the best, if not the best, overall home schedules ever.  

If I was wrong, I think it would be an easy thing for someone like PRN to mention which seasons he thinks are better and why.  So far, he hasn't been able to do that.  Only Murff ventured to offer a suggestion, and I gave him credit for finding a season that is debatable.  His choice--1976-77 featured five teams ranked 11-20, versus this year with two top 10 teams.  

Many of the responses were focused on trying to exclude the quality of the conference games in the schedule discussion.  As if MU doesn't actually play those, or season ticket holders don't buy them.  

In the end, I have to think there is some validity to my statement, since there is a decided lack of better seasons identified.  

I know the fashionable thing here is to pretend the conference games don't exist so we can launch criticisms into MU based on the schedule.  As a fan, I take the entire season into account--I don't think many others are doing so.  

[Pardner]

My guess is that this is the toghest AWAY schedule ever.  Brutal. 

[Marquette84]

If calling into question a thread you started on another board is a personal attack then I am deeply sorry.

I was referring to this post of yours:
"Seriously, who are you trying to sell this schedule to? Yourself?"

The post was suggesting that while a team that can take a 9 point lead on a top 25 program and stay within 12 for the game, is probably better than they were predicted to be during the preseason, and probably shouldn't be taken lightly. 

Nothing about selling the schedule.  That was brought in by you, in order to make a personal attack.


If you think that we should take the buy games lightly, then say so. 

I don't think we should--especially when the team looked like they may pull off a major upset.

[Big Papi]

I also don't understand why we have to pick one portion of the schedule to gripe about instead of looking at the schedule as a whole.  We are in one of the top conferences in the country and now play 18 conference games.  In addition we played 3 other teams who are considered to be in top conferences and still people complain about one specific portion of the schedule.   

So if we would have brought in a Georgia instead of a IUPUI to play at home, everyone would be happy?  I find that hard to believe. 

Also, I hate to break it to everyone but be prepared for more disappointment next year as well.  We get UW at home but I have already heard some rumblings about how we play them every year and they shouldn't count.  Next year there is a decent chance we play in the SEC/Big East challenge but those games are neutral site games I believe so that game won't count in the eyes of many as well.  And any home and home game will start on the road. 

I would love to upgrade our schedule as whole, who wouldn't but at this point in time, it is what it is. 

But maybe the men's soccer team turns into a national power and the cool new soccer stadium that is being built, that TC donated money to, ends up generating some decent chunks of money.  Next thing you know the women's basketball team starts to be a national power and more money is generated and all of that gets invested back into the athletic program and we can actually start to see some changes, like getting rid of one buy game............Sorry, just wanted to stoke some posters hatred of TC with the prior comments.  That was very bad of me.   I will now go stand in the corner.    

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

It's great when posters defend the only portion of the schedule that we have control over by crying poor. Marquette's athletic department budget is borderline out of control. We're overpaying assistant coaches because we can't hold onto any for more than a year (200K for Williams, who knows how much for Rab) and wasting money on $42,000 exercise chambers -- but we can't get a decent opponent into the Bradley Center in November or December? Please.

[Avenue Commons]

It's great when posters defend the only portion of the schedule that we have control over by crying poor. Marquette's athletic department budget is borderline out of control. We're overpaying assistant coaches because we can't hold onto any for more than a year (200K for Williams, who knows how much for Rab) and wasting money on $42,000 exercise chambers -- but we can't get a decent opponent into the Bradley Center in November or December? Please.

Williams makes $200K a year? Damn, that's pretty good.

Question: Are the assistant coaches employees of Marquette University or some "off shoot" like the Marquette athletic department? If they're employees of the university do they also get all of the perks like tuition remission for their kids like other employees of the university? If so, that's a pretty damn good employment package, especially if they have college aged kids.

[Ready2Fly]

PRN - you complain that we can't keep an assistant coach, then when we pay a good one a competitive wage (presumably to keep him from leaving) you complain.  

Also, that exercise chamber hardly seems to be a waste, as we look MUCH better conditioned than our opponents.  Wisconsin faded sown the stretch but we just kept bringing it.  If you watched the Georgetown vs. Memphis game this past weekend you'd know how important that kind of conditioning is.

But I guess you'd rather have something to complain about.

[Pakuni]

It's great when posters defend the only portion of the schedule that we have control over by crying poor. Marquette's athletic department budget is borderline out of control. We're overpaying assistant coaches because we can't hold onto any for more than a year (200K for Williams, who knows how much for Rab) and wasting money on $42,000 exercise chambers -- but we can't get a decent opponent into the Bradley Center in November or December? Please.

A little perspective, please?
How does Williams' salary compare with other assistants at major/top 25-caliber programs?
Also, if you don't know how much Rab is earning, how can you know he's overpaid?
What other evidence of "out-of-control" spending can you tell us about? Is MU funding country club memberships for all its coaches, a la UW? Do Tom Crean and his assistants receive two cars at the university's expense?
God forbid you actually provide some facts once in a while to support your ravings.

And, as I've reminded you many times before, being a Marquette basketball season ticket holder is a voluntary activity. If you're unhappy with the product, you are free to not purchase it. Do us all a favor and send the athletic department a message by canceling your tickets. Sacrifice yourself for the good of the group.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

PRN - you complain that we can't keep an assistant coach, then when we pay a good one a competitive wage (presumably to keep him from leaving) you complain.  

Frankly, I don't care what we pay coaches to put up with Crean for a year. More power to them. But don't turn around and tell fans that we can't afford to play home and homes because of budget limitations.

It's insulting...but people like you keep lapping it up.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

It's great when posters defend the only portion of the schedule that we have control over by crying poor. Marquette's athletic department budget is borderline out of control. We're overpaying assistant coaches because we can't hold onto any for more than a year (200K for Williams, who knows how much for Rab) and wasting money on $42,000 exercise chambers -- but we can't get a decent opponent into the Bradley Center in November or December? Please.

A little perspective, please?
How does Williams' salary compare with other assistants at major/top 25-caliber programs?
Also, if you don't know how much Rab is earning, how can you know he's overpaid?
What other evidence of "out-of-control" spending can you tell us about? Is MU funding country club members for all its coaches, a la UW? Do Tom Crean and his assistants receive two cars at the university's expense?
God forbid you actually provide some facts once in a while to support your ravings.

And, as I've reminded you many times before, being a Marquette basketball season ticket holder is a voluntary activity. If you're unhappy with the product, you are free to not purchase it. Do us all a favor and send the athletic department a message by canceling your tickets. Sacrifice yourself for the good of the group.

Yes, because a disagreement with how MU has handled it's lame non-conference schedule and hidden behind non-existent budget problems is completely unreasonable and, instead of questioning it, I should just stop rooting for my alma mater.

As for country club memberships and free automobiles...are you joking? Marquette ABSOLUTELY provides that. And I see nothing wrong with that.

Once again, Pakuni does not understand the argument. Marquette spends a HUGE amount of money on perks for coaches. That is fine. I have no problem with that. If they want to give it away and coaches can get it, go for it.

But don't then tell the people that spend their money on games that they can't afford to play a home and home against anybody (except, of course Valpo and Oakland)! It's just completey inaccurate!

[Pakuni]

Yes, because a disagreement with how MU has handled it's lame non-conference schedule and hidden behind non-existent budget problems is completely unreasonable and, instead of questioning it, I should just stop rooting for my alma mater.

No one is suggesting you stop rooting for your alma mater, and you're being more than a little disingenious by suggesting that your neverending anti-Marquette ravings are limited to "a disagreement with how MU has handled it's lame non-conference schedule."
Rather, I'm suggesting that if you are so distraught over the quality of the product, i.e. the games provided on the schedule, then exercise your right to not pay for it. You can continue to root for Marquette to your heart's content without buying season tickets.

As for country club memberships and free automobiles...are you joking? Marquette ABSOLUTELY provides that. And I see nothing wrong with that.

OK, glad you see nothing wrong with that. Then please detail for us the parts of MU's athletic department budget with which you do see something wrong.
You've now said you have no problem with cars, country club memberships or even high salaries for assistant coaches ... though you've yet to show that their salaries are, in fact, high relative to their peers.
So if those things are fine in your book, what isn't fine? What's "out of control"? Give us some examples, please. Back up your statements.

But don't then tell the people that spend their money on games that they can't afford to play a home and home against anybody (except, of course Valpo and Oakland)! It's just completey inaccurate!

I don't know if it's inaccurate. And unless you have your hands on MU's budget, I suspect you don't either.
That said, who from Marquette has said this specifically?
Except, of course, Tom Crean's super-secret message board mole, aka Marquette84.

[Marquette84]

But don't then tell the people that spend their money on games that they can't afford to play a home and home against anybody (except, of course Valpo and Oakland)! It's just completey inaccurate!

Yes, that's the choice, PRN.  MU has decided to invest the extra money in the coaching staff rather than a better non-conference game.  That sums it up.

MU has decided to invest in the coaching staff.  That has resulted in 20 wins in the Big East to date and back-to-back NCAA tournaments

DePaul has decided to invest in the schedule.  That has resulted in missing all post season one year, and a BET and NIT the next.  But at least they had a better home schedule.

If we follow your approach, we would be just like DePaul.  We could put the money into the schedule instead of coaching salary and perks.  That way, we'd have the excitement every four years of getting to know a new coach, since we'll either fire the old one for losing (Kennedy) or he'll leave after his first good season (Leitao).

So maybe we wouldn't have many NCAA appearances (or NIT appearances or Big East Tournament appearances), but damn, at least we'd see a couple better non-conference home games.  After all, who cares about winning, right?

[New Era Warriors]

PRN, do you have a problem? Seriously? You must have some sort of problem in your life where you take your anger out on this message board.  Every single post you write is pessimistic and you complain about something.  If Marquette beat Pittsburgh by 35, you would find something to complain about. Tom Crean's hair, his use of timeouts, etc. etc.  Your act is getting old.  I think everyone on this board sees that you usually have nothing good to say. Every time i see that you posted something, I just skip over it now, because it is ridiculous content. What is your problem? Did you get cut from the basketball team in high school? Grade school? Do you not have any friends? IDK. Are you even a Marquette fan? I don't know, hopefully! Make it your New Years resolution to not complain about every god damn thing that has to do with Marquette basketball or Tom Crean.

[wadesworld]

For those of you who are complaining about our non-conference schedule PLEASE go through the Top 25 team's schedules.  I just did it and we have a very similar schedule to most of them.  The only teams with clearly tougher non-conference schedules are Memphis (because they have NOBODY in their conference schedule to play so they need it for their SOS), UCLA, Michigan State, Texas, Duke, and USC.  We have a clearly tougher non-conference schedule than Washington State, Pitt, Texas A&M, Vanderbilt, Butler, Villanova, Miami, Ole Miss, West Virginia, and Rhode Island.  Most teams that are expected to do well in the pre-season aren't going to schedule a bunch of games against ranked opponents.  They will play in one tournament, possibly a conference challenge, and then one game against a ranked opponent.  Why risk taking a bunch of losses in non-conference when you're already ranked high so you don't have to beat good teams to move up and when you have a chance to lose a handful of games in the conference?

And how can people rip on Marquette for having a strong schedule only because they didn't have control over the part of the schedule that makes it strong?  You don't think we knew we'd have a tough schedule before we made our non-conference schedule?  We need some easy wins because once the Big East starts there aren't going to be many easy wins, they'll all have to be earned.  I bet if you switch Memphis and us (we're back in CUSA and they're in the BE) we have a very hard non-conference schedule and theirs is weak.  And then we'd have posters on here crying about getting out of CUSA because there are no good teams to play and ripping the non-conference schedule because we'd have to have a tough non-conference schedule to get our SOS up so we had no choice.  All this complaining is getting old...our SOS at the end of the year will be very good, and it doesn't matter whether it's a result of the part of the schedule that was given to us or the part of the schedule we got to make...it's going to be strong regardless.

[The Lens]

We finished in 4th place in a 16 team league with a 10-6 record in a conf that is considered one of the best...we got an 8 seed.  Somehow I don't think this whole schedule thing has been mastered yet.

[ChicosBailBonds]

We finished in 4th place in a 16 team league with a 10-6 record in a conf that is considered one of the best...we got an 8 seed.  Somehow I don't think this whole schedule thing has been mastered yet.

The injury to Mcneal probably didn't help either in the seeding.

[ChicosBailBonds]

What is the source of this $200K for Williams?  Just curious.

Then again, he did leave a head coaching job to become an assistant coach.

It's amazing to me that we still have posters on this board that b i t c h about this program considering where we are.  Truly amazing.  Kids graduating, no NCAA issues, highly successful team, a coach that WANTS to be here (unlike the 4 previous ones), stability for the first time in 30 years.

Why are some people so damn angry all the time about MU....for some the more successful we are, the more angrier they get.  I get it, some of you don't like Crean.  That's fine...some didn't like Deane...some didn't like KO...that's the way it goes.

[Pakuni]

We finished in 4th place in a 16 team league with a 10-6 record in a conf that is considered one of the best...we got an 8 seed.  Somehow I don't think this whole schedule thing has been mastered yet.

Fourth place would have been nice. Reality was sixth place.
And MU's 8th seed had as much, or more, to do with the record in their last 10 games (5-5) and uncertainty over McNeal's injury as it did with the non-conference schedule.

At season's end, MU's non-conference SOS was 98th, better than  ...

#1 seed Florida (159th)
#1 seed Kansas (114th)
#2 seed Georgetown (129th)
#3 seed Texas A&M (141st)
#3 seed Washington St. (310th!!!)
#3 seed Oregon (233rd!!!)
#4 seed Texas (183rd)
#4 seed Virginia (175th)
#5 seed USC (181st)
#6 seed Vanderbilt (130th)
#6 seed Notre Dame (309th!!!)
#6 seed Louisville (145th)
#7 seed Nevada (100th)
#7 seed Indiana (149th)
http://kenpom.com/rpi.php?y=2007

So, exactly half the teams seeded ahead of Marquette had weaker - in some cases significatly weaker - out-of-conference schedules. Clearly when it comes to seeding this non-conference SOS stuff isn't nearly as important as some of you, along with the tournament committee, want us to believe.
But any excuse to gripe, I suppose ...

[Pakuni]

What is the source of this $200K for Williams?  Just curious.

http://www.nola.com/uno/t-p/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/118378612959750.xml&coll=1&thispage=2

[ecompt]

All the MU coaches are vastly overpaid.  ???Fire the lot and bring in Billy Gillespie at double TC's contract and watch the team go .500 with a slew of McDonald's All-Americans. We could go 35-0 and win the NCAA title and some people are going to dump on the coaches. It is simply unbelievable. Virtually everyone in the free world agrees that Crean is one of the best coaches around. I guess that's just not enough.

[Pakuni]

Oops. Never mind.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

ecompt --
I question our reasons for a shoddy non-conference schedule and Marquette84's opinion that FGC is a decent opponent and you start defending Crean's contract? What!?

Where in this thread did anybody mention Crean's contract?

You are a perfect example of the kind of poster who argues against a non-existent point of view. Classic.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

PRN, do you have a problem? Seriously? You must have some sort of problem in your life where you take your anger out on this message board.  Every single post you write is pessimistic and you complain about something.  If Marquette beat Pittsburgh by 35, you would find something to complain about. Tom Crean's hair, his use of timeouts, etc. etc.  Your act is getting old.  I think everyone on this board sees that you usually have nothing good to say. Every time i see that you posted something, I just skip over it now, because it is ridiculous content. What is your problem? Did you get cut from the basketball team in high school? Grade school? Do you not have any friends? IDK. Are you even a Marquette fan? I don't know, hopefully! Make it your New Years resolution to not complain about every god damn thing that has to do with Marquette basketball or Tom Crean.

How do you know my posts contain "ridiculous content" if you don't read them?

[ChicosBailBonds]

What is the source of this $200K for Williams?  Just curious.

http://www.nola.com/uno/t-p/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/118378612959750.xml&coll=1&thispage=2

Thanks.  I guess some people think he left a head coaching gig to become an assistant coach and it's only the money that made him do it.  At least that's how I read some of the posts here. 

To each his own.   Happy New Year everyone.

[ecompt]

I believe the assistant coach's pay was mentioned BY YOU in the thread, and then it led to the point that MU spends too much on that and not enough on bringing in the kinds of opponents PRN wants (North Carolina, Florida, the Spurs). You mention "non-existent budget problems." I presume you know this for a fact, that MU could schedule fewer home games (and find only high-quality opponents) and still make the money needed to support the ENTIRE athletic department.
We now play 18 Big East games; that leaves nine non-conference games. We play UW and UWM the next few years. That leaves seven non-con. games. I know you would like us to schedule more heavyweights, but all of them would want return games (some 2 for 1). If we played Detroit and Loyola instead of Savannah State and Florida Coast, would THAT make you happy? All I know is that our HOME conference schedule is as good as anyone's in the country.    

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

$200K for Williams?? Williams, a coach who landed a blue chip prospect out of Texas in less then two months on the job??

Seems underpaid to me.

[Marquette84]

All I did was say they aren't as terrible as people thought intially, based on the fact that THEY ACTUALLY HELD A RANKED TEAM TO A TWELVE POINT GAME!!  They came closer to beating Butler than Michigan or Ohio State did!ecompt --
I question our reasons for a shoddy non-conference schedule and Marquette84's opinion that FGC is a decent opponent and you start defending Crean's contract? What!?

Where in this thread did anybody mention Crean's contract?

You are a perfect example of the kind of poster who argues against a non-existent point of view. Classic.

Pot, meet Kettle.

Where in this thread did I say that FGC was a decent opponent?  

Don't bother looking--I never said it.  You made it up, in order to argue against it.

YOU, PRN, are EXACTLY the same--YOU invent statements to argue against as well.

As you say, Classic.

For the record, this was my exact quote:  "I think the appropriate scouting is that FGC is certainly not a great team, but they're not as terrible as people initially thought, either. As they showed against Butler, if you let your guard down they are capable of holding a highly regarded team close."

I didn't think that this was a terribly controversial statement.  It is certainly consistent with fact.  For some reason, FGC played Butler closer than Ohio State and Michigan did.  That means one of two things--either FGC is actually better than Ohio State or Michigan.  Or Butler took FGC lightly, and FGC had enough talent to put a scare into a ranked team.  I'm going with the latter.

Seems to me that Utah Valley State did the same thing to MU earlier this season.  ND State did even worse to MU last season.  Maine did it to us in the 90's.  ECU did it to us in 2003.  

So, PRN, where on earth do you get off on suggesting that I'm wrong becasue I say we should not take FGC lightly?   It seemed rather obvious to me when a team doesn't take a lightly-regarded opponent seriously, like say, Gardner-Webb or Mercer, even a team like Kentucky or USC can lose.

If PRN, you want to argue that we should still take FCG lightly because it fits with your pre-conceived notion that they're a terrible team, then have at it.  You make the case that MU should take them lightly.  That they're not possibly good enough to put a scare into a ranked team.



But stop using every post I make as an excuse to launch into some personal attack or tired criticism.  

[augoman]

which is the 'blue-chip' prospect?  or, are you referring to the consolation recruits.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

All I did was say they aren't as terrible as people thought intially, based on the fact that THEY ACTUALLY HELD A RANKED TEAM TO A TWELVE POINT GAME!!  They came closer to beating Butler than Michigan or Ohio State did!ecompt --
I question our reasons for a shoddy non-conference schedule and Marquette84's opinion that FGC is a decent opponent and you start defending Crean's contract? What!?

Where in this thread did anybody mention Crean's contract?

You are a perfect example of the kind of poster who argues against a non-existent point of view. Classic.

Pot, meet Kettle.

Where in this thread did I say that FGC was a decent opponent?  

Don't bother looking--I never said it.  You made it up, in order to argue against it.

YOU, PRN, are EXACTLY the same--YOU invent statements to argue against as well.

As you say, Classic.

For the record, this was my exact quote:  "I think the appropriate scouting is that FGC is certainly not a great team, but they're not as terrible as people initially thought, either. As they showed against Butler, if you let your guard down they are capable of holding a highly regarded team close."

I didn't think that this was a terribly controversial statement.  It is certainly consistent with fact.  For some reason, FGC played Butler closer than Ohio State and Michigan did.  That means one of two things--either FGC is actually better than Ohio State or Michigan.  Or Butler took FGC lightly, and FGC had enough talent to put a scare into a ranked team.  I'm going with the latter.

Seems to me that Utah Valley State did the same thing to MU earlier this season.  ND State did even worse to MU last season.  Maine did it to us in the 90's.  ECU did it to us in 2003.  

So, PRN, where on earth do you get off on suggesting that I'm wrong becasue I say we should not take FGC lightly?   It seemed rather obvious to me when a team doesn't take a lightly-regarded opponent seriously, like say, Gardner-Webb or Mercer, even a team like Kentucky or USC can lose.

If PRN, you want to argue that we should still take FCG lightly because it fits with your pre-conceived notion that they're a terrible team, then have at it.  You make the case that MU should take them lightly.  That they're not possibly good enough to put a scare into a ranked team.



But stop using every post I make as an excuse to launch into some personal attack or tired criticism.  

I will leave the personal attacks and name calling to you.

[ecompt]

Consolation recruits? I would hardly call a Top-25 recruiting class consolation. So we lost out on a kid to Georgia Tech, where he'll spend one year? Otule, Tyshawn Taylor and Nick Williams are pretty good "consolations."

[Marquette84]

All I did was say they aren't as terrible as people thought intially, based on the fact that THEY ACTUALLY HELD A RANKED TEAM TO A TWELVE POINT GAME!!  They came closer to beating Butler than Michigan or Ohio State did!ecompt --
I question our reasons for a shoddy non-conference schedule and Marquette84's opinion that FGC is a decent opponent and you start defending Crean's contract? What!?

Where in this thread did anybody mention Crean's contract?

You are a perfect example of the kind of poster who argues against a non-existent point of view. Classic.

Pot, meet Kettle.

Where in this thread did I say that FGC was a decent opponent?  

Don't bother looking--I never said it.  You made it up, in order to argue against it.

YOU, PRN, are EXACTLY the same--YOU invent statements to argue against as well.

As you say, Classic.

For the record, this was my exact quote:  "I think the appropriate scouting is that FGC is certainly not a great team, but they're not as terrible as people initially thought, either. As they showed against Butler, if you let your guard down they are capable of holding a highly regarded team close."

I didn't think that this was a terribly controversial statement.  It is certainly consistent with fact.  For some reason, FGC played Butler closer than Ohio State and Michigan did.  That means one of two things--either FGC is actually better than Ohio State or Michigan.  Or Butler took FGC lightly, and FGC had enough talent to put a scare into a ranked team.  I'm going with the latter.

Seems to me that Utah Valley State did the same thing to MU earlier this season.  ND State did even worse to MU last season.  Maine did it to us in the 90's.  ECU did it to us in 2003.  

So, PRN, where on earth do you get off on suggesting that I'm wrong becasue I say we should not take FGC lightly?   It seemed rather obvious to me when a team doesn't take a lightly-regarded opponent seriously, like say, Gardner-Webb or Mercer, even a team like Kentucky or USC can lose.

If PRN, you want to argue that we should still take FCG lightly because it fits with your pre-conceived notion that they're a terrible team, then have at it.  You make the case that MU should take them lightly.  That they're not possibly good enough to put a scare into a ranked team.



But stop using every post I make as an excuse to launch into some personal attack or tired criticism.  

I will leave the personal attacks and name calling to you.

For the future, the appropriate response in a case like this would be:

"You're right--I made up that statement to suit my own purpose, and you caught me red handed.  What can I say? You're right and I didn't want to admit it!"

Bottom line, you're so invested in your own negative thinking that you can't bring yourself to admit that my point was right on.

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

which is the 'blue-chip' prospect?  or, are you referring to the consolation recruits.

Ironically, Dominic James and Jerel McNeal were both called consolation recruits because James committed after Frasor committed to UNC and MU beat out Dayton for McNeal's commitment. That worked out pretty okay.

ecompt touches on the 2008 class which I'm sure you are refering to when using consolation recruits to describe them. I'm not truly sure why but the class is getting ranked fairly highly. I do know that Williams and Taylor will be very good players for MU.

The prospect I was talking about was Erik Williams whom by all accounts is expected to progress very well playing the highest level of high school ball in Texas.

[chapman]

Some thoughts about the topics brought up...

I liked the analysis of the overall home schedule, not just the non-conference portion.  Considering we play two more Big East games this year, that's an extra conference game at home.  Even adding a mid to lower tier team like Rutgers or Seton Hall to the schedule is a better replacement than playing another random cupcake.  It also adds to the overall strength-would you rather schedule a cupcake on the road as part of a 4-for-1 contract or just travel to the Garden to take on St. John's?  St. John's is not a good team, but the name and conference affiliation help us much more.

Still, while it has been mentioned that most schools play non-conference schedules like ours, why can't we differentiate ourselves a little bit?  I'm glad we don't play Miami's joke of a non-conference schedule, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to schedule a 2-for-1 with an MVC or CUSA team or a home-and-home with a Big 12 team.  Is the revenue hit really that big between finding a different cupcake and paying them to come play us three years in a row in front of a half-full BC versus playing two home games and a road game against a respectable opponent, generating some interest (and extra revenue), creating a mini-rivalry, or playing a major-conference opponent and possibly getting television revenue?

I found the Buzz Williams salary thing interesting.  I had no idea he was making that much, or if $200k is enough to keep the guy from bolting for the next head-coaching job that calls, but it seems like he's doing a lot for us so far.  I think his recruiting impact is undeniable, and we should at least wait to see the results of his recruiting before judging our overall investment in him.  Erik Williams, Chris Otule, and Joseph Fulce seem like obvious results of having Coach Williams on the staff, and Scout.com also lists him as the primary recruiter of Tyshawn Taylor.

I know it's not this black-and-white, but I'll take the recruiting upgrade versus falling back on a JUCO player in May whose only other option is playing for a cupcake school if it means playing another cupcake.

[spiral97]

PRN/84 - if you guys feel the need to hijack the thread into debate about personal attacks, name calling, etc. might I direct you to your own PM boxes?  Better yet, just exchange e-mail addresses and go that route.  I know I don't want to read any more about it and doubt most people here do.  So move along unless you have something relevant to say on THIS topic.

[Marquette84]

But it certainly wouldn't hurt to schedule a 2-for-1 with an MVC or CUSA team or a home-and-home with a Big 12 team.  Is the revenue hit really that big between finding a different cupcake and paying them to come play us three years in a row in front of a half-full BC versus playing two home games and a road game against a respectable opponent, generating some interest (and extra revenue), creating a mini-rivalry, or playing a major-conference opponent and possibly getting television revenue?

I don't think there is any doubt that a CBS, ABC, or ESPN game is accepted instantly, regardless of venue.  By definition, those are going to be high-interest games against a top tier opponent.

The question is whether there is value to settling for a lesser team.

First, your comment about generating extra revenue is simply not there for anything less than an elite level team or in-state team. As was analyzed in another thread, teams like Arizona, Wake Forest and UWM did draw extra fans.   Teams like Dayton, Nebraska, and UMass drew no more fans than the cupcakes they replaced.    And since you gave to play a return game with a home-and-home arrangement, you would have to draw double the attendance to be revenue neutral.  Beefing up the schedule as a revenue boost simply won't work.

Second, and I think more important to the conference, is the lack of upside and significant downside from playing teams from the MVC, CUSA (except Memphis) or the A-10.  For example, the Big East is currently 6-6 versus the A-10 this year, with one game left (Fordham/Georgetown).  At the end of this season, it is very likely that there will be the 7th or 8th place Big East team on the bubble with the 2nd or 3rd place A-10 team.  If Syracuse and UMass are those teams--not an unlikely outcome--then Syracuse is screwed and the Big East loses a bid.   Or consider this possibility:  Providence and Dayton are the bubble teams.  Perhaps Providence loses to UL in conference play while Dayton beats URI.  Hmm.  Against common opponents, Dayton is 2-0, Providence is 0-2.  Advantage Flyers.

The irony here is that a loss to a cupcake--embarrassing as it may be--actually seems to have less impact on NCAA selection.  The Atlantic Sun is not going to get an extra bid because Gardner Webb upset Kentucky.   Gardner Webb simply isn't a credible at-large candidate, and nobody believes that game is anything other than a pure upset.  With the Syracuse/UMass or Providence/URI comparisons, the head-to-head and common opponent games are going to be viewed as credible data in determining which team is more tournament worthy.

The way to establish separation from the pack--if you're in the top 5 in a power conference--is to limit your non-conference games to either elite level teams or bunnies.   A loss to an elite team won't hurt you--Georgetown isn't going to be hurt for losing to Memphis--and a loss to a bunny will be written off as an upset, assuming its isolated and the rest of the performance was strong. 

[chefrad]

"Consolation recruits? I would hardly call a Top-25 recruiting class consolation. So we lost out on a kid to Georgia Tech, where he'll spend one year? Otule, Tyshawn Taylor and Nick Williams are pretty good "consolations."

True--and no one seems to even try to analyze the "value" of a one-ear 5* player vs. a 3-4 year 4*.How important would Thabeet really be to UConn if he leaves after this year? Consider that he might have left last spring had he had any success at all.

As for schedules, not everyone can work the non-con thing as well as Gonzaga. Was it Davidison or Furman who almost beat but lost to top teams. The NCAA is now out of the question for them already  (But their fans saw plenty of good ball).   

[spartan3186]

 The NCAA is now out of the question for them already  (But their fans saw plenty of good ball).   

That's not true at all. Not winning those big games just assured that they remain as a one bid conference. They still have an excellent shot at winning their conference and making the big dance. If anything their non-confernce schedule helped prepare them for their conference schedule and the NCAA.

[muwarrior87]

"Consolation recruits? I would hardly call a Top-25 recruiting class consolation. So we lost out on a kid to Georgia Tech, where he'll spend one year? Otule, Tyshawn Taylor and Nick Williams are pretty good "consolations."

True--and no one seems to even try to analyze the "value" of a one-ear 5* player vs. a 3-4 year 4*.How important would Thabeet really be to UConn if he leaves after this year? Consider that he might have left last spring had he had any success at all.

As for schedules, not everyone can work the non-con thing as well as Gonzaga. Was it Davidison or Furman who almost beat but lost to top teams. The NCAA is now out of the question for them already  (But their fans saw plenty of good ball).   

agree w/ spartan, definitely not out of the question. It's more likely they'd get a conference champ auto bid than an atlarge bid anyway. Also, I agree that a 4-star recruit that's here for 3-4 years is far more valuable than a 5 star that's one year and gone. There's not that much difference between the 25th and 100th ranked player at a given position also so it's not a huge drop off.