"The Big East died when..."

[mug644]

In the comments after an article on ESPN about Marinatto's resignation (http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7900287/john-marinatto-tenure-big-east-commissioner-was-doomed-start), one guy using the handle 8chilidogs wrote the following:

"The Big East died when they added DePaul and Marquette.... There was no reason to add basketball only members to this conference. If they would have snagged two football playing members instead of those two schools, Pitt, WVU and Cuse would still be members. 
 
The basketball only members killed this conference."

While it's certainly a football-centric perspective, and doesn't acknowledge the contributions that MU has brought to BEast bball (nor the drag that DePaul has been on BEast bball) and that there were and still are other bball only members, it does seem to be a somewhat justifiable (albeit simplistic and full of hindsight) point of view. I'm not someone who has strong opinions one way or the either about the power of football, the changes in conference landscape and the future of the BEast, but I was struck by the basic logic of the comment.

[brewcity77]

Nope. The Big East was only adding basketball-only schools because it was founded on basketball. Providence, St. John's, Georgetown, Seton Hall, and Holy Cross were all invited to be charter members of the league. Three years later, Penn State applied to join the league and the Big East voted them down. If you want a moment to point to, that is the moment the Big East died, all the way back in 1982.

No one knew how football-centric conferences would become at the time, but the Big East made a declaration then that it was a basketball-league first. Sure, they tried to remedy that in the 1990s with Miami, Rutgers, Virginia Tech, Temple, and West Virginia, but they didn't have enough perennial powerhouse type teams. Miami was there, but they stood alone. Va Tech, WVU, Pitt, Syracuse, BC, all had their years in the sun, but none were the power that Penn State was, the one team with massive tradition that everyone would rally around.

That's why the defections started, and when Marquette and DePaul were invited, it wasn't the death of the league, it was simply the continuation of what began back in 1982 with the assertion that the Big East was a basketball league first. If you want to point to a moment of the Big East's downfall, it was 30 years ago.

[MerrittsMustache]

It's a moderately interesting point but it's dead wrong. Which 2 of the following football schools that were part of the 2005 realignment or part of ConfUSA at that time would have made a difference for the Big East during this latest round of realignment?

UAB
ECU
Memphis
Southern Miss
Houston
Tulane
Marshall
UCF
Rice
SMU
Tulsa
UTEP
Army
TCU
FAU
FIU
Troy
Idaho
New Mexico State
Utah State

[GGGG]

brew is right.  If they would have invited Penn State early, and formed a football conference around them, they would still be around now.  There was talk that they could have gotten Maryland to join them at about the same time.

[mutrainer71]

Today's Boston Globe

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/football/articles/2012/05/08/big_east_split_could_be_happening_sooner_rather_than_later/

[CTWarrior]

I think Boston College leaving was the single biggest defection.  That is the one school that geographically belonged in the Big East that left, paving the way for Pitt and Syracuse.  The thing I don't get is that the move has been bad for BC, as they are no longer relevant in football or basketball.  It will be interesting to see how Pitt and Syracuse fare basketball-wise in the ACC.  If you're a great player and want to play in the ACC, why wouldn't you play for Duke or UNC if they wanted you?

[Dawson Rental]

Clearly 1982 was a huge missed opportunity.  The thing that it and the decision to add DePaul and Marquette have in common is that they were decisions that determined that the Big East will be a hybrid league, with both football and non-football schools.  Marquette and DePaul were added to balance the number of basketball only schools with the football schools, so by doing it the league made certain that the non-football schools would have an equal say in league affairs.  

By making its public image basketball first from the very start, the Big East probably doomed itself to losing football programs whenever the opportunity would arise for one to move to a football first league.  Such leagues would always be more attractive because they could offer so much more football revenue.  Looked at in that light, adding us and DePaul only confirmed the league's flawed founding premise.  Flawed because it would lead to instability of membership.

[GGGG]

I think the Boston.com article is right...and it is time for the split.  I can't see how MU is going to be any worse in a conference of the current basketball schools plus carefully selected schools from the A10 than it will be in the future BE.

I would rather be playing conference games against Xavier and Dayton than I would UCF and SMU.

[Dr. Blackheart]

...ESPN's offer was rejected.

[MerrittsMustache]

I think the Boston.com article is right...and it is time for the split.  I can't see how MU is going to be any worse in a conference of the current basketball schools plus carefully selected schools from the A10 than it will be in the future BE.

I would rather be playing conference games against Xavier and Dayton than I would UCF and SMU.

The article states: "Notre Dame said it would not take part in a split." What does that mean? If the Big East breaks up, they'll leave? Would any big time conference even consider taking ND as a basketball-only member while letting them keep their historic football program independent?

[GGGG]

The article states: "Notre Dame said it would not take part in a split." What does that mean? If the Big East breaks up, they'll leave? Would any big time conference even consider taking ND as a basketball-only member while letting them keep their historic football program independent?

I thought about ND....but decided I don't care what they do.  Current BE basketball schools: Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Georgetown, Nova, Marquette and DePaul.  All have been to a final four in my lifetime.  Notre Dame hasn't.

Add Xavier and Dayton to that mix, along with some other A10 school, and you have gone back to your roots...a basketball-centric conference of urban, private schools.

[Dawson Rental]

Speaking of ND, isn't their membership invite to the Big East a candidate for the death knell of the Big East?  It was a huge compromise to take ND, and let their football program stay independent.  It was an admission of inferiority by the conference that it never could quite shake.

I thought about ND....but decided I don't care what they do.  Current BE basketball schools: Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Georgetown, Nova, Marquette and DePaul.  All have been to a final four in my lifetime.  Notre Dame hasn't.

Add Xavier and Dayton to that mix, along with some other A10 school, and you have gone back to your roots...a basketball-centric conference of urban, private schools.

ND has always wanted to go their own way, its time to let them.

[MerrittsMustache]

I thought about ND....but decided I don't care what they do.  Current BE basketball schools: Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Georgetown, Nova, Marquette and DePaul.  All have been to a final four in my lifetime.  Notre Dame hasn't.

Add Xavier and Dayton to that mix, along with some other A10 school, and you have gone back to your roots...a basketball-centric conference of urban, private schools.

I don't particularly care what ND does either. I was more curious as to what their plan was or if it's the (stereo)typical ND arrogance that they assume conferences will line up for them if they leave the BE.

I wasn't always on-board with the idea of a bball-only conference but adding solid A10 teams to the current bball-only schools is looking better and better, considering the new additions that the BE is making.

[mug644]

... and you have gone back to your roots...a basketball-centric conference of urban, private schools.

Interesting and positively nostalgic, but the truth is that's not where the money is, and money is driving everything. Smallish schools with relatively small alumni bases, without the easy draw of being THE state school to create a non-alum fan base simply are less likely to fare as well in the current landscape. Put a bunch of them together, and it can work but only with a slim margin for error. Get a couple to slide down and linger there, like DePaul, Detroit, Temple and others and they could drag the MU, Xavier types down with them.

That said, it seems like the best of a pile of poor options to me.

[CTWarrior]

I think the Boston.com article is right...and it is time for the split.  I can't see how MU is going to be any worse in a conference of the current basketball schools plus carefully selected schools from the A10 than it will be in the future BE.

I would rather be playing conference games against Xavier and Dayton than I would UCF and SMU.

That is likely where we are headed and a slow, steady march to where the A-10 currently is (maybe current A-10 plus 10%).  What marquee matchups does the Big East have that don't involve football schools?  The concept of a conference of private schools is great except for the fact that their fan bases don't extend a whole lot beyond the alumni. which makes them less attractive for TV, etc.  Sure I'd rather play Dayton than UCF, too, but I'd much rather play Louisville or UConn than either.  

A split will make second class citizens of everybody, including whatever current Big East football schools can't get into one of the other big conferences.  Think about the football half of a split Big East for a second.  Assuming Louisville bolts and ND doesn’t participate, it is UConn, Cincinnati, Temple, Memphis, Rutgers, SMU, USF, UCF, Houston, etc.  That’s a crappy football conference AND a sub-par basketball conference (Four good schools-and even that’s saying a lot because who knows what UConn becomes when Calhoun retires and they’re in that conference-and a lot of crap).  If I’m Cincinnati I’m pretty sure I want Marquette, Georgetown, Villanova and St. John’s to play during basketball season.

[NersEllenson]

The Big East died....when Tom Crean took his talents to Bloomington....

On a serious note..agree with Brew that not admitting Penn State back in the day was the first fatal blow, and Dr. Blackheart on the Big East rejecting ESPN's latest TV Deal.  Though as I recall Pitt and Cuse were fairly involved/influential in the Big East rejecting that ESPN deal if I recall correctly - so perhaps they were on their way out anyway..

[bilsu]

I think the Boston.com article is right...and it is time for the split.  I can't see how MU is going to be any worse in a conference of the current basketball schools plus carefully selected schools from the A10 than it will be in the future BE.

I would rather be playing conference games against Xavier and Dayton than I would UCF and SMU.

What worries me is that the A10 is expanding now, which means they will not likely pick up any Big East teams, if the Big East splits. It also makes it less likely that teams will leave the A10. There was a lot of speculation about Butler joining the basketball only Big East schools, which I questioned why they would. Obviously, they would have considered it, if the Big East had split a couple of months ago. Now, I do not see them leaving the A10 to join with us, if there is a split. Maybe the Big East should have blown up already. A split a couple of months ago would have most likely resulted in Butler, Xavier and Dayton joining. Now I am not so sure.

[MerrittsMustache]

Interesting and positively nostalgic, but the truth is that's not where the money is, and money is driving everything. Smallish schools with relatively small alumni bases, without the easy draw of being THE state school to create a non-alum fan base simply are less likely to fare as well in the current landscape. Put a bunch of them together, and it can work but only with a slim margin for error. Get a couple to slide down and linger there, like DePaul, Detroit, Temple and others and they could drag the MU, Xavier types down with them.

That said, it seems like the best of a pile of poor options to me.

Final sentence sums up the situation perfectly.

Also, Temple is actually a public university with nearly 30,000 undergrads. Not trying to call out you specifically, but I just wanted to point that out because I've seen Temple lumped into the "small, private school" segment quite a bit.

[CTWarrior]

..agree with Brew that not admitting Penn State back in the day was the first fatal blow

I thin Penn State would have left the Big East for the Big 10 in 1990 regardless.  Joe Pa called the shots and wouldn;t have thought that the Big East would have given them a reasonable shot at the national title.  

[Dawson Rental]

Final sentence sums up the situation perfectly.

Also, Temple is actually a public university with nearly 30,000 undergrads. Not trying to call out you specifically, but I just wanted to point that out because I've seen Temple lumped into the "small, private school" segment quite a bit.

Oh, and Temple does have a Division I football program.

[Hoopaloop]

...ESPN's offer was rejected.

Overwhelmingly. 12-4 vote.  How did Marquette vote?

[79Warrior]

...ESPN's offer was rejected.

Bingo! That is what is being missed. Dumbsh## move and the rest is history as the conference unravels.

[MerrittsMustache]

Oh, and Temple does have a Division I football program.

Oh yeah, that too.

[GGGG]

Interesting and positively nostalgic, but the truth is that's not where the money is, and money is driving everything. Smallish schools with relatively small alumni bases, without the easy draw of being THE state school to create a non-alum fan base simply are less likely to fare as well in the current landscape. Put a bunch of them together, and it can work but only with a slim margin for error. Get a couple to slide down and linger there, like DePaul, Detroit, Temple and others and they could drag the MU, Xavier types down with them.

That said, it seems like the best of a pile of poor options to me.

Oh yeah...I would rather have today's Big East rather than anything else.  However that can't happen.  So I would rather have the bball only conference than what the BE is becoming.

[Hoopaloop]

I thin Penn State would have left the Big East for the Big 10 in 1990 regardless.  Joe Pa called the shots and wouldn;t have thought that the Big East would have given them a reasonable shot at the national title.  

I don't agree. With Miami, Penn State, BC, a good Syracuse program at the time, that was a solid football conference.  He won two titles without a conference and has not come close since joining the Big Ten.  They could have dominated the Big East in football for decades.

[Dawson Rental]

I don't agree. With Miami, Penn State, BC, a good Syracuse program at the time, that was a solid football conference.  He won two titles without a conference and has not come close since joining the Big East Ten.  They could have dominated the Big East in football for decades.

Fixed.  Like Memphis does (soon to be did) in CUSA basketball, Penn State could have dominated Big East football, and gotten into better bowl games, keeping its football momentum stronger.

[Hoopaloop]

Fixed.

Thank you

[MU82]

Time for the split.

Past time, really.

Big East is totally screwed in the four-team football playoff format. Loss of its best football schools makes it a second-tier football conference, and invitations to all of these far-flung schools will doom it to second-tier basketball conference.

I know there are football TV revenue considerations, but it's time for the hoopsters to make a go of it on our own.

[mug644]

Oh yeah, that too.

Consider me put in my place about Temple, in more ways than one.

[mu03eng]

I don't agree. With Miami, Penn State, BC, a good Syracuse program at the time, that was a solid football conference.  He won two titles without a conference and has not come close since joining the Big Ten.  They could have dominated the Big East in football for decades.

False, PSU was competing for a title in '94 the first year of their Big 10 membership, finished #2 in the polls behind an inferior Nebraska team.  Also ranked top 5 in '99 before falling apart in the last half of the year.  First of a couple of instances why joining the B1G was stupid for Penn State. 

That was forced by the admin for academic reasons had nothing to do with football.  If it had to do with football then the Big East was the play as it gave them access into NC, SC, and Florida some.  The midwest was already locked down as a recruiting base, needed to be opened into the south which B10 did nothing to help.

[Dawson Rental]

Consider me put in my place about Temple, in more ways than one.

Fergetaboutit!  Temple has a unique talent for flying under the radar.

[Dawson Rental]

False, PSU was competing for a title in '94 the first year of their Big 10 membership, finished #2 in the polls behind an inferior Nebraska team.  Also ranked top 5 in '99 before falling apart in the last half of the year.  First of a couple of instances why joining the B1G was stupid for Penn State.  

That was forced by the admin for academic reasons had nothing to do with football.  If it had to do with football then the Big East was the play as it gave them access into NC, SC, and Florida some.  The midwest was already locked down as a recruiting base, needed to be opened into the south which B10 did nothing to help.

I think that you're actually agreeing with Hoopaloop's point here.

[mu03eng]

Time for the split.

Past time, really.

Big East is totally screwed in the four-team football playoff format. Loss of its best football schools makes it a second-tier football conference, and invitations to all of these far-flung schools will doom it to second-tier basketball conference.

I know there are football TV revenue considerations, but it's time for the hoopsters to make a go of it on our own.

Agreed.

Take a look at the available teams again:
Current BE basketball schools: Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Georgetown, Nova, Marquette and DePaul.  There is a lot of tradition there, if you can bring in a Xavier and say a Creighton or something like that you can put together a solid BB conference.  You take that to ESPN with an attractive initial contract to them and they will put the conference on tv a lot.  Plus you make some sort of Big East - ACC challenge and you will drive eyeballs.  Sure it ain't football money but the Big East is going to get screwed in the new playoff format so I'd rather strike out independent of football then lash myself to the sinking carcass that is Big East football.

[mu03eng]

I think that you're actually agreeing with Hoopaloop's point here.

Poor distinguishing on my part, I was disagreeing with the competitive part, but agreeing with the Big East vs Big 10 point.

[MerrittsMustache]

Agreed.

Take a look at the available teams again:
Current BE basketball schools: Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Georgetown, Nova, Marquette and DePaul.  There is a lot of tradition there, if you can bring in a Xavier and say a Creighton or something like that you can put together a solid BB conference.  You take that to ESPN with an attractive initial contract to them and they will put the conference on tv a lot.  Plus you make some sort of Big East - ACC challenge and you will drive eyeballs.  Sure it ain't football money but the Big East is going to get screwed in the new playoff format so I'd rather strike out independent of football then lash myself to the sinking carcass that is Big East football.

I don't think the Big East is going to be making any deals with the ACC any time soon. Besides, the ACC already has the ACC-Big Ten Challenge. Perhaps the new and improved Big East could strike a deal with the Big 12 or Pac-12.

[mu03eng]

I don't think the Big East is going to be making any deals with the ACC any time soon. Besides, the ACC already has the ACC-Big Ten Challenge. Perhaps the new and improved Big East could strike a deal with the Big 12 or Pac-12.

First, to adapt a cliche, money makes strange bedfellows.  Yes there is animosity towards the ACC but if it makes the difference between failure and success of an all basketball league the Big East would do it.

Second, I think we'll see the ACC-B10 challenge go away when the next contract is up.  ESPN has significant tie-ins with the ACC, hosting their network and all, however the Big 10 is a major competitor.  So I could see ESPN wanting to move the challenge to two leagues that they control and therefore get the most bang for their buck.  Not sure of the contract lengths though and how that timing works out.  Plus Big East-ACC has more natural rivalries.

[The Equalizer]

I thought about ND....but decided I don't care what they do.  Current BE basketball schools: Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Georgetown, Nova, Marquette and DePaul.  All have been to a final four in my lifetime.  Notre Dame hasn't.

Well that puts your birthday in the narrow window between Notre Dame's 1978 Final Four appearance and 1979 when DePaul was last in a Final Four.

While you might be technically accurate about Notre Dame not making a Final Four in your lifetime, it seems rather arbitrary to make that your primary point of differentiation between DePaul and Notre Dame. 

Notre Dame has been more successful over the past 20 years, and would arguably add more to a league than would DePaul.

[GGGG]

Well that puts your birthday in the narrow window between Notre Dame's 1978 Final Four appearance and 1979 when DePaul was last in a Final Four.

Oops...

Actually I was born in 1967...forgot about the 1978 Final Four.

[cheebs09]

I think a key could be the new NBC Sports network. I'm reading the ESPN book, and the company grew in part because of their Big East deal. If we could take the new conference and get NBC involved, I think it could be beneficial for both parties.

[77ncaachamps]

As a former McDonald's AA, I look at schools that have great football programs before committing.

[Hoopaloop]

False, PSU was competing for a title in '94 the first year of their Big 10 membership, finished #2 in the polls behind an inferior Nebraska team.  Also ranked top 5 in '99 before falling apart in the last half of the year.  First of a couple of instances why joining the B1G was stupid for Penn State. 

That was forced by the admin for academic reasons had nothing to do with football.  If it had to do with football then the Big East was the play as it gave them access into NC, SC, and Florida some.  The midwest was already locked down as a recruiting base, needed to be opened into the south which B10 did nothing to help.

You are right, they competed for a national title in their first year.  As you stated, that happened in the first year of the Big Ten.  Those players were recruited as an independent and the timing worked out for them.  PSU was also new to most Big Ten teams in terms of schemes, etc, but concede in that first year they were contenders.

[MU82]

Notre Dame has been more successful over the past 20 years, and would arguably add more to a league than would DePaul.

No argument from any intelligent observer. There isn't a conference that would rather have DePaul than Notre Dame, even without ND football.