Is Going To College Worth It?

[mu03eng]

That's not the reason to go to college.  The reason to go to college is statistically, your chances of being in the middle class/upper middle class/1% all substantially increase...whereas if you do not go to college the statistical likelihood of ending up in the bottom 20%, substantially increases. 

You don't go to college hoping to get into the top 1%, you go to ensure you position yourself for the most success possible.

That's predicated on you going into a degree area that has value greater than the debt you're assuming to get the degree

[Tugg Speedman]

Really? Salary and/or accumulated wealth that us in the top 1% of earners in US.

Must've slept through the Occupy era

No, what LEVEL defines one as having moved into the 1%.

You can give me salary, accumulated wealth, or both.

You think this is accurate?

[Tugg Speedman]

That's predicated on you going into a degree area that has value greater than the debt you're assuming to get the degree

And that was the point of the opening articles to start this thread.  While no one is doubting that going to college raises one's marketability to get a job, does it justify the enormous cost?

Peter Thiel and  James Altucher argued no.  Take a job out of high school and have your parents shovel $150k over the first four years into your bank account and they believe the average person would be better off.

Hence college is a waste for the average person.

[reinko]

And that was the point of the opening articles to start this thread.  While no one is doubting that going to college raises one's marketability to get a job, does it justify the enormous cost?

Peter Thiel and  James Altucher argued no.  Take a job out of high school and have your parents shovel $150k over the first four years into your bank account and they believe the average person would be better off.

Hence college is a waste for the average person.

Again, stop with  $150K marker.  The average debt for students graduating with their undergrad today is under $30K, and like others have already pointed out, ANY student can graduate, get a bachelor's degree, with under $40K in debt, that's if they qualified for ZERO grants, and financed the entire thing.

Now again, this is about choices.  In my example above, the cheapest path to a bachelors degree is 2 years of public community college at let's say $5K per year, then 2 years of commuting at a public in-state 4 year college.

Again, this is not and should not be the path for everyone, but if just looking @ costs, your $150K assumes the most expensive schools, with no financial aid grant money, and a family who zero willingness to pay any portion.

[Tugg Speedman]

Again, stop with  $150K marker.  The average debt for students graduating with their undergrad today is under $30K, and like others have already pointed out, ANY student can graduate, get a bachelor's degree, with under $40K in debt, that's if they qualified for ZERO grants, and financed the entire thing.

Now again, this is about choices.  In my example above, the cheapest path to a bachelors degree is 2 years of public community college at let's say $5K per year, then 2 years of commuting at a public in-state 4 year college.

Again, this is not and should not be the path for everyone, but if just looking @ costs, your $150K assumes the most expensive schools, with no financial aid grant money, and a family who zero willingness to pay any portion.

Debt does not mean that is the total cost.  That is the borrowed cost as you're ignoring the tens of Thousands shelled out by a family in addition to the debt.

As noted above, the average all-in cost for MU is $37k/year.  MU is actually one of the cheaper Jesuit schools, also noted above.

http://www.collegedata.com/cs/content/content_payarticle_tmpl.jhtml?articleId=10064

In its most recent survey of college pricing, the College Board reports that a "moderate" college budget for an in-state public college for the 2016–2017 academic year averaged $24,610. A moderate budget at a private college averaged $49,320. But what goes into these costs?

The average of the numbers above is $150k, which is why I use it.

Yes, options like community college cost far less.  But again, what is the point?  Get a job straight out of high school and have your parents give you the $30k to $50k to get your going.  How much better off are you because of community college?  Pocket the money, get a decent car and apartment and start working at 18.

[reinko]

Debt does not mean that is the total cost.  That is the borrowed cost as you're ignoring the tens of Thousands shelled out by a family in addition to the debt.

As noted above, the average all-in cost for MU is $37k/year.  MU is actually one of the cheaper Jesuit schools, also noted above.

http://www.collegedata.com/cs/content/content_payarticle_tmpl.jhtml?articleId=10064

In its most recent survey of college pricing, the College Board reports that a "moderate" college budget for an in-state public college for the 2016–2017 academic year averaged $24,610. A moderate budget at a private college averaged $49,320. But what goes into these costs?

The average of the numbers above is $150k, which is why I use it.

Yes, options like community college cost far less.  But again, what is the point?  Get a job straight out of high school and have your parents give you the $30k to $50k to get your going.  How much better off are you because of community college?  Pocket the money, get a decent car and apartment and start working at 18.

We are talking about two different groups of folks.   I am primarily talking low income,  first generation young people,  who if they can get a college degree,  it's proven they can break the line of poverty in their family.

You are talking rich kids,  whose parents can just gift them $30K a year for 4 years.

I ain't worried about the ones you are talking about.

[Tugg Speedman]

We are talking about two different groups of folks.   I am primarily talking low income,  first generation young people,  who if they can get a college degree,  it's proven they can break the line of poverty in their family.

You are talking rich kids,  whose parents can just gift them $30K a year for 4 years.

I ain't worried about the ones you are talking about.

A poor kid that goes to a community college for two years $10k ($5k/year assume lives at home).  Then two-years at a state school, $15/k year for $30k.  Add community college and all-in cost is $40k.

They graduate after spending $40k.  Let's assume that they are not top of their class but instead are average. 

How much better off are they instead of starting working at 18 and getting $40k for their bank account.

Thiel and Altucher argue they are not and should go straight into the workforce.

Let's be blunt, the kid I described above is probably not getting a STEM degree so what is their increase in earnings potential to justify the four year later start in starting work and spending $40k for that education?

[reinko]

A poor kid that goes to a community college for two years $10k ($5k/year assume lives at home).  Then two-years at a state school, $15/k year for $40k

They graduate after spending $40k.  Let's assume that they are not top of their class rather than average. 

How much better off are they instead of starting working at 18 and getting $40k for their bank account.

Thiel and Altucher argue they are not and should go straight into the workforce.

Let's be blunt, the kid I described above is probably not getting a STEM degree so what is their increase in earnings potential to justify the four year later start in starting work and spending $40k for that education?

A poor kid (parents make under $30K a year)  will receive a max Pell grant ($5900 a year),  thus bringing down that $40K, to $16K worth of debt,  again,  assuming no other aid.

That's about $175 a month repaymemt,  for ten years. 

Now, another kid who gets a job that pays slightly more than minimum wage,  say $10 a hour,  40 hours week. This kid is grossing $21K, and will take home maybe $17K a year x 4 years,  and say,  they earn an extra grand a year,  bringing the 4 year take home pay,  to about 75K.  Now,  of course,  they will not save every penny,  but best case scenario,  they save $50K.

Who is better off,  the kid with $50K in the bank, and a high school diploma,  or the kid with your average bachelor's degree,  from X State College,  with 16K in debt.

I think it's a no brainer,  the kid with the college degree who has double the earning potential versus the HS grad,  who still living rent free at their parents house and making $11 bucks an hour.

[Tugg Speedman]

A poor kid (parents make under $30K a year)  will receive a max Pell grant ($5900 a year),  thus bringing down that $40K, to $16K worth of debt,  again,  assuming no other aid.

That's about $175 a month repaymemt,  for ten years. 

Now, another kid who gets a job that pays slightly more than minimum wage,  say $10 a hour,  40 hours week. This kid is grossing $21K, and will take home maybe $17K a year x 4 years,  and say,  they earn an extra grand a year,  bringing the 4 year take home pay,  to about 75K.  Now,  of course,  they will not save every penny,  but best case scenario,  they save $50K.

Who is better off,  the kid with $50K in the bank, and a high school diploma,  or the kid with your average bachelor's degree,  from X State College,  with 16K in debt.

I think it's a no brainer,  the kid with the college degree who has double the earning potential versus the HS grad,  who still living rent free at their parents house and making $11 bucks an hour.

If you are using an apples-to-apples comparison ... the kid that starts at minimum wage at 18, and could have graduated from a state school, is a shift supervisor 4 years later and has already doubled his salary.  Now he is even with the kid that graduates from college in the example above.

Given this, I think it is a wash or even favors the kid that starts at 18 and has the extra bucks in his bank account.

[reinko]

If you are using an apples-to-apples comparison ... the kid that starts at minimum wage at 18, and could have graduated from a state school, is a shift supervisor 4 years later and has already doubled his salary.  Now he is even with the kid that graduates from college in the example above.

Given this, I think it is a wash or even favors the kid that starts at 18 and has the extra bucks in his bank account.

A shift supervisor @ run of the mill fast food,  car wash,  oil change,  retail store make around $11 an hour.   Now,  a GM of one of these places is in the mid to upper 40s, but oops,  most places that are  GMs are asking for a college degree.

[Tugg Speedman]

A shift supervisor @ run of the mill fast food,  car wash,  oil change,  retail store make around $11 an hour.   Now,  a GM of one of these places is in the mid to upper 40s, but oops,  most places that are  GMs are asking for a college degree.

Seems like experience is valued over a degree, so get a four year jump with money in your pocket.

http://www.snagajob.com/job-descriptions/store-manager/

HOW MUCH DO STORE MANAGERS MAKE?
This depends a lot on what kind of field you are in and what sort of company you are hired to manage. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, for example, restaurant and food service managers make a median income of $48,130, or $23.14 per hour. Pay will vary depending on occupation and years of service, among other factors.

WHAT ARE THE EDUCATION REQUIREMENTS?
Again, this varies greatly depending on the field of work, but on-the-job experience in the line of work is a must. There are many general management courses that you can take, and even specialized secondary education majors, that might shorten the time it takes to reach management level in your field. But most managers have spent years as general employees in their respective fields before reaching a leadership level.

[Tugg Speedman]

Here is my thought ...

STEM degrees are always worth it.  Get one of those no matter the price and place.

Any degree from a top University is worth it, defined as top 100 (out of 4500) universities in the country (MU is top 100).  Get one of those.  Bottom 50 on this list might be a bit expensive but still worth it.

Above is, what, 20 to 30% of all college degrees.  The other 70% TO 80% is iffy ... unless the price is drastically cut.

Restated, in WI only Madison and MU are top 100.  If you go to another WI university are are not getting a STEM degree, have to be getting a MAJOR break on tuition or it is questionable if it is helping your employment prospects versus what you are paying (and delaying your career start by 4 years).

Have at this idea.

[reinko]

Here is my thought ...

STEM degrees are always worth it.  Get one of those no matter the price and place.

Any degree from a top University is worth it, defined as top 100 (out of 4500) universities in the country (MU is top 100).  Get one of those.  Bottom 50 on this list might be a bit expensive but still worth it.

Above is, what, 20 to 30% of all college degrees.  The other 70% TO 80% is iffy ... unless the price is drastically cut.

Restated, in WI only Madison and MU are top 100.  If you go to another WI university are are not getting a STEM degree, have to be getting a MAJOR break on tuition or it is questionable if it is helping your employment prospects versus what you are paying (and delaying your career start by 4 years).

Have at this idea.

Good back and forth,  appreciate the thoughts.

I stated earlier the thread,  that college is NOT right for everyone,  and that huge debt (and again been in college financing for 12 years),  I define as over $40K at graduation,  is a huge tipping point if whether or not a student should go.

I agree,  exceptions for top schools,  and STEM careers.   If a middle income kid graduated from MU,  with A&S major,  and over $40 or $50K with a debt,  I think that is most likely not a great choice.

Now,  I we have been only talking "worth", as $,  which I know you will argue,  it's all that matters.

But college graduates are healthier,  dramatically less likely to be on government benefits or incarcerated,  more likely to vote,  more likely to be married and have kids...

So while salary and opportunity cost are two factors,  I would argue the ones listed above are also based in economics.

[GGGG]

Here is my thought ...

STEM degrees are always worth it.  Get one of those no matter the price and place.

Any degree from a top University is worth it, defined as top 100 (out of 4500) universities in the country (MU is top 100).  Get one of those.  Bottom 50 on this list might be a bit expensive but still worth it.

Above is, what, 20 to 30% of all college degrees.  The other 70% TO 80% is iffy ... unless the price is drastically cut.

Restated, in WI only Madison and MU are top 100.  If you go to another WI university are are not getting a STEM degree, have to be getting a MAJOR break on tuition or it is questionable if it is helping your employment prospects versus what you are paying (and delaying your career start by 4 years).

Have at this idea.

That's false.  Graduates from public comprehensive universities, even in non-business degrees, earn more than they would without the degree.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

In my past experience 'some college' was a weed out by HR to get an interview for a factory job...most who actually got hired had an associates degree or a bachelors.  The degree spoke not to what was learned from a discipline perspective but to a level of capability.

I'm not saying everyone needs college or the specific classes along the way to get a degree, but the journey still stands for something.

[Tugg Speedman]

In my past experience 'some college' was a weed out by HR to get an interview for a factory job...most who actually got hired had an associates degree or a bachelors.  The degree spoke not to what was learned from a discipline perspective but to a level of capability.

I'm not saying everyone needs college or the specific classes along the way to get a degree, but the journey still stands for something.

The journey is worth something ... that something is the price of tuition.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

The journey is worth something ... that something is the price of tuition.

plus a 30-40 year career in a mfg facility with benefits which none of those ladies or gentleman are eligible for without what I said previously.  The price of being in the middle class has risen - right or wrong.

[Tugg Speedman]

Again it is not about the absoutel idea of going to college from 18 to 22.  It is about the relative question of the cost.


Is college worth the cost? Many recent graduates don’t think so.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/09/30/is-college-worth-the-cost-many-recent-graduates-dont-think-so/?utm_term=.d664742c0cd0

If the results of a national survey released on Tuesday are any indication, many of them will question their investment. Just 38 percent of students who have graduated college in the past decade strongly agree that their higher education was worth the cost, according to results of 30,000 alumni polled by Gallup-Purdue Index.

http://www.gallup.com/reports/197144/gallup-purdue-index-report-2015.aspx

[Jay Bee]

Again it is not about the absoutel idea of going to college from 18 to 22.  It is about the relative question of the cost.


Is college worth the cost? Many recent graduates don’t think so.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/09/30/is-college-worth-the-cost-many-recent-graduates-dont-think-so/?utm_term=.d664742c0cd0

If the results of a national survey released on Tuesday are any indication, many of them will question their investment. Just 38 percent of students who have graduated college in the past decade strongly agree that their higher education was worth the cost, according to results of 30,000 alumni polled by Gallup-Purdue Index.

http://www.gallup.com/reports/197144/gallup-purdue-index-report-2015.aspx

Dumb people with dumb majors are different than intelligent people who are looking for a career that requires a college education... those are the biggest factors for me.. what are you trying to do? What are you planning to study?

[mu03eng]

Now,  I we have been only talking "worth", as $,  which I know you will argue,  it's all that matters.

But college graduates are healthier,  dramatically less likely to be on government benefits or incarcerated,  more likely to vote,  more likely to be married and have kids...

So while salary and opportunity cost are two factors,  I would argue the ones listed above are also based in economics.

Not saying you are but this feels like a chicken or egg thing. Do those people succeed in that way because they went to college or do the type of people that go to college and have the ability to succeed because they are successful people?

[reinko]

Not saying you are but this feels like a chicken or egg thing. Do those people succeed in that way because they went to college or do the type of people that go to college and have the ability to succeed because they are successful people?

Totally valid question,  like most things,  I think it's a bit gray,  and somewhere in the middle.

[Tugg Speedman]

Totally valid question,  like most things,  I think it's a bit gray,  and somewhere in the middle.

This is certainly the case with the Ivies.  Look at the number of successful people that bailed out of Harvard early without a degree so they could get started ... Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg and Ken Griffin (Citadel).  Collectively these three are worth about $175 billion!

They were destine to be successful no matter what.  This is the case with many Ivy students.  Ivies don't have exceptional classes, they take exceptional students that are going to "make it" no matter what.

[Tugg Speedman]

Not saying you are but this feels like a chicken or egg thing. Do those people succeed in that way because they went to college or do the type of people that go to college and have the ability to succeed because they are successful people?

Which is why I said above that STEM degrees anywhere and any degree from a top 100 university (which includes MU) is worth it.  Problem is this is a small fraction of the kids currently in college.

If you're not one of the two above, you need a substantial discount in tuition to justify the four years.

[Herman Cain]

Honestly, I think the most realistic remedy is better education on loans and college finances in high school. My fiance went to LIU Post for her undergrad. Tuition costs roughly the same if not more than a Marquette despite not having nearly the prestige or profile and being near bankruptcy. She went there because her mom went there and as a 17 year old she didn't understand how much debt she was talking on and that there were cheaper options where she would have gotten a better education. She has said that if she knew what she knows now, she would have gone to a SUNY and ended up with maybe 10% of the derby she has now.

College counselors in high school are woefully underprepared and underfunded. I bet we'd see a lot less debt issues if we did the education up front.

LIU Post has a  nice campus in a good neighborhood. She probably had fun.

[GGGG]

Which is why I said above that STEM degrees anywhere and any degree from a top 100 university (which includes MU) is worth it.  Problem is this is a small fraction of the kids currently in college.

If you're not one of the two above, you need a substantial discount in tuition to justify the four years.

What would substantial mean?  Because as I said before, most non STEM degrees are beneficial even at regional comprehensive universities when compared to no degree.