Buzz is a great recruiter... period

[ErickJD08]

I am very sad to see Liam's career over because I was really excited to see him play (and I wish him all the luck).  But I am really happy to see how committed Buzz is to develop a balanced team by bringing in a center with one center leaving.  I am not saying the tallest team wins but a balanced attack gives the best odds of winning. 

I think in one year, Buzz has addressed just about every issue with this team.  Who knows how good the team will be but we have players for every position.  We have the projects.  We have the talent.  We have the sleepers.  If we luck out on the sleepers/projects, we might have something special in the works.  For a guy who is not a BIG TIME coach at a BIG TIME school, I give Buzz an A+ for recruiting.  (Who knows, he might pull in Painter.) 

[MUCam]

I am estatic about Buzz's recruiting. He clearly can sell it when it is there to be sold. That said, wait a couple years before you call him a "great recruiter."

Marquette has become a nationally recognized program once again. You can see that in press coverage both locally and nationally. You can see it in comments made by coaches, recruits and players around the country. Has Marquette "made it," or "arrived?" Maybe not to the top/elite level, but the program is certainly closing in. There is no doubt it is a top 20 program in the country. What does this all have to do with Buzz's recruiting? Well, Buzz has been able to sell top-flight playing time at a top-flight program. You simply cannot disregard how important availability of playing time has been to the 2009 recruiting class successes.

Before the coronation ceremony that names Buzz a great recruiter, let's see what he brings in next year and the year after that. If Buzz can continue his excellent recruiting for the 2010 and 2011 classes, despite having reduced ability to pitch playing time, then I'll call him a "great" recruiter.

[Daniel]

Let's just agree that given the time on the job, Buzz has done an excellent job, and he is off to a great start.  This is goodness. 

[Ready2Fly]

I agree 100% with ErickJD... the Liam situation was one where, if Crean were at the helm he would have thrown the scholly at a Blackledge/Lott-level JUCO this late in the signing period.  Instead Buzz was able to reel in a 7 footer with tons of upside and the ability to make at least a marginal immediate impact.

I also hate the argument, "He can sell when there's PT, but let's see what he can do down the line."  In case anyone missed it, there are four starting spots open next year.  Buzz is bringing in five players with four-star level talent next year.  One of them will have to sit.  Then Aaron Bowen - another four-strar recruit - is being brought in behind them.  That's what great recruiters do.  They are able to sell top 100 talent when there isn't an open spot.

Bowen's freshman year, there will be six four star talents, a three star center, and a player with huge upside in Jimmy Butler.  There are only 5 starting spots for those eight players.  Three will have to sit to start the game, and they know that coming in.  Face it - Buzz is a GREAT recruiter.

[bilsu]

It is easy to recruit for an open spot. What Buzz has done is assembled in my opinion the deepest team ever at MU. McGuire had his great starting line ups, but did not have a lot of talent after that. Practices will be competitive and hopefully that translates into rapid improvement. The question I have is whether Buzz will utilize all the players or quickly widdle the playing time down to 7 players. You can expect transfers if some of these new players do not get off the pine. McMorrow will never play a game for MU, but I bet he was a tremondous asset in recruiting. One of the things Buzz needed to sell recurits was that MU was still going to be a good team. I can see Buzz telling potential recruits that he had this 7' footer red shirting that was going to be really good. I may be wrong, but I think McMorrow had a positive effect on this recruiting class.

[MR.HAYWARD]

I am estatic about Buzz's recruiting. He clearly can sell it when it is there to be sold. That said, wait a couple years before you call him a "great recruiter."

Marquette has become a nationally recognized program once again. You can see that in press coverage both locally and nationally. You can see it in comments made by coaches, recruits and players around the country. Has Marquette "made it," or "arrived?" Maybe not to the top/elite level, but the program is certainly closing in. There is no doubt it is a top 20 program in the country. What does this all have to do with Buzz's recruiting? Well, Buzz has been able to sell top-flight playing time at a top-flight program. You simply cannot disregard how important availability of playing time has been to the 2009 recruiting class successes.

Before the coronation ceremony that names Buzz a great recruiter, let's see what he brings in next year and the year after that. If Buzz can continue his excellent recruiting for the 2010 and 2011 classes, despite having reduced ability to pitch playing time, then I'll call him a "great" recruiter.

Mucam you are lost.....buzz is a great recruiter evaluating them 2-3 years down the raod has nothing to do with beng a great recruiter..these 7 kids had all the best programs in the country going after them and he got them.  there are always going to be guys that dont pan out Duke, UnC , Kansas etc. have and have had tons of players like that that does not take away from the fact that when they were juniors and seniors in HS or Juco they were recruiited by the whos who and that particular coach got them.  regardless of how these kids turn out they had tons of offers, Buzz getting a guy like Junior when memphis and Louisville offered him ids exeptional,  same with the rest.  

Also the playing time argument is truly retarded.  we have solid players coming back and we have 7 recruits fro 5 spots.... sure there is playing time but only so much..

lastly you reference how will the 2010 class look....well i guess you have not been paying attention but we already have 2 4 star prospects in the fold.   and by the looks of it we aint adding no stumblbum with the last scholly.  

give it a rest. buzz is recruiting as well as any school in the country!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MUCam]

Thanks for your intelligent input, Mr. Hayward. Per the usual, it is highlighted with "my way or the highway" rhetoric.

I have been officially put in place by your persuasive words. I hereby relinquish my prior opinion and stand ready to state, "Buzz is a great recruiter."

Thanks for the guidance. I will indeed give it a rest, for as where once I was lost, now I can see. Thank you again.

[ChicosBailBonds]

That's been Buzz's rep from day one when Crean hired him....great great recruiter.  It's why Gillespie wanted him at Kentucky.  Its why Crean wanted him at MU and then at IU.  If he can keep the guys happy (as Bilsu suggests), he'll really have something going.  Hopefully a 10 man rotation, that would be awesome to see.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thanks for your intelligent input, Mr. Hayward. Per the usual, it is highlighted with "my way or the highway" rhetoric.

I have been officially put in place by your persuasive words. I hereby relinquish my prior opinion and stand ready to state, "Buzz is a great recruiter."

Thanks for the guidance. I will indeed give it a rest, for as where once I was lost, now I can see. Thank you again.

I have Hayward on ignore so I can't read his crap, but all you have to know is his philosophy.  He has a win at all costs mindset.  Some of us believe in other things like graduation rates, good citizenship, etc.  But he doesn't.

This post from the JS pretty much sums his attitude up





MrHayward» Report abuse Friday May 08, 2009 11:49 AM
So we run a few off that didn't cut it. Big deal. Don't be a baby.

Crean did it. Buzz does it. That's how we roll. Look at stupid UW-Madison stuck with bad players on the bench. We don't have that problem which is why we will be a better program som day. It's not all about the kids, some times it's about winning.

[Hards Alumni]

I have Hayward on ignore so I can't read his crap, but all you have to know is his philosophy.  He has a win at all costs mindset.  Some of us believe in other things like graduation rates, good citizenship, etc.  But he doesn't.

This post from the JS pretty much sums his attitude up





MrHayward» Report abuse Friday May 08, 2009 11:49 AM
So we run a few off that didn't cut it. Big deal. Don't be a baby.

Crean did it. Buzz does it. That's how we roll. Look at stupid UW-Madison stuck with bad players on the bench. We don't have that problem which is why we will be a better program som day. It's not all about the kids, some times it's about winning.

why ignore people?  can't handle their views?

(apparently I have offended 4 people now)

[Skatastrophy]

why ignore people?  can't handle their views?

(apparently I have offended 4 people now)

With Hayward it's his inability to grasp the basics of spelling and grammar.  I literally can't read his posts, so ignoring him removes some of the clutter from the forums.

[HoopDreams]

Lets see how Buzz's recruits do before we consider him the second coming. Time will tell
everything.

[ChicosBailBonds]

why ignore people?  can't handle their views?

(apparently I have offended 4 people now)

I can handle their views just fine.  He's the only one I ignore as my brain explodes trying to interpret what he is attempting to say grammatically with a thirty sentence paragraph.  Throw in his spelling, logic and factual fallacies and the choice is easy.....ignore.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Lets see how Buzz's recruits do before we consider him the second coming. Time will tell
everything.

Don't let Lenny see your post, you will be accused of not supporting Buzz.  Or worse, giving him a back handed complement. 

[Pakuni]

Lets see how Buzz's recruits do before we consider him the second coming. Time will tell
everything.

Yes.
And no.

Obviously the quality of Buzz's first recruiting class ultimately will be determined by how well they perform.

However, in terms of filling needs and landing highly sought-after talent (sometimes on very short notice of an opening), Buzz has done an outstanding job.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Yes.
And no.

Obviously the quality of Buzz's first recruiting class ultimately will be determined by how well they perform.

However, in terms of filling needs and landing highly sought-after talent (sometimes on very short notice of an opening), Buzz has done an outstanding job.

I'll agree with this.

I really like the type and amount of talent that appears to be coming in (Buzz has done well), but players are ultimately judged when they leave school, not when they arrive (still TBD).

I'm optimistic.

[THEGYMBAR]

So far, so good. Let's see how this class does on the court and in the classroom. Recruiting a good player that is a good student is tough. The classroom means less to me but realize many on here it means a great deal. At this point my gut tells me I will be happy and others might be unhappy with the classroom. Just my gut feeling.

[pillardean]

I too am an optimist, but I don't follow the captain when the ship sinks.  That is why I agree with whoever said players are remembered when the leave the court, not when they enter. 

That being said Buzz has done a fantastic job in his first recruiting class.  I do not believe he was recruiting playing time, I believe he was recruiting playing time with HARD WORK and PATIENCE. 

He has this unique story about how he started from low and worked his way up, and I think that is carrying through to the players, especially in recruiting.  True, 4 starting spots are open, but he is bringing in more than 4 potential starters freshman year.  I think he sells the work hard and be rewarded montra much more readily than just P.T.

But, we must wait and see-although this class has surpassed anything I could have imagined or hoped for.

[ErickJD08]

I am not buying into this whole PT stuff.  Maybe with Junior and Maymon since many would consider those to be the gems of the class and their natural position are where we have the biggest problems on our roster (I would put money that both of them start next season).  But all the other players are not locks to start by any stretch of the imagination.  DJ, Buycks, and Butler are going to battle for the starting spot.  Mboa and Otule are going to battle.  Hayward's a no brainer.  And lets not forget that E Will will want a spot too.  OH YEAH, if the interview is accurate at all (Buzz hasn't waffled yet) Fulce might come around be "as advertised"(pre injury) better than Jimmy Butler. 

The situation is that there are four open starting spots.  We have three talented freshmen that COULD start and two highly regarded JUCO's who can come in and play right away.  You can't recruit around PT the whole time.  Now when you think about the 2010 picks, there is no way Buzz can sell PT.  I am really excited to hear reports on our kids.  AND I hope Buzz pulls in one more talent like Painter or something.

[MR.HAYWARD]

the JS online post was not mine nor do i feel that way i dont post on their

[Lennys Tap]

Don't let Lenny see your post, you will be accused of not supporting Buzz.  Or worse, giving him a back handed complement. 

This is tiresome but let me try to explain one more time.

We agree that TC is the most successful MU coach in the post McGuire era. Recruiting and coaching were the most important factors in determining this success. Buzz has proven to my satisfaction he is TC's superior in both of these. In addition, he is, in my view, a vastly superior human being. That's the trifecta. It has taken me 13 months to make these determinations. To you that makes me "easy". But that's longer than it took me to fall in love with my wife, forge any of my many close friendships or spot valued and loyal business associates. You're so concerned that you might make a mistake you're "hedging" your life away. Don't wait til your 50th anniversary to tell your wife you're "sure" of her. Don't wait til the retirement party to tell your best employee how good he or she is. Trust your instincts. Take a risk. The worst that might happen is that sometimes you'll be wrong. People will still like you. In fact, they'll like you more.

[Marquette84]

This is tiresome but let me try to explain one more time.

We agree that TC is the most successful MU coach in the post McGuire era. Recruiting and coaching were the most important factors in determining this success. Buzz has proven to my satisfaction he is TC's superior in both of these. In addition, he is, in my view, a vastly superior human being. That's the trifecta. It has taken me 13 months to make these determinations. To you that makes me "easy". But that's longer than it took me to fall in love with my wife, forge any of my many close friendships or spot valued and loyal business associates. You're so concerned that you might make a mistake you're "hedging" your life away. Don't wait til your 50th anniversary to tell your wife you're "sure" of her. Don't wait til the retirement party to tell your best employee how good he or she is. Trust your instincts. Take a risk. The worst that might happen is that sometimes you'll be wrong. People will still like you. In fact, they'll like you more.

How has Buzz proven he's a superior recruiter?  The only recruits of his anyone has seen play are Butler, Fulce & Otule.   Yes, he landed many promising recruits for next year--but nobody knows how they're going to pan, whether they become head cases, are injury prone, etc. 

If these recruits are superior, we won't have to wait four years--we'll know if they're on track within a year.  Here's the link to the freshman/soph/junior season records:
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/marq/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/0809-m-baskbl-mg-13.pdf

After one season we'll know how this year's recruits map against historical averages.  This year's recruits all have a golden opportunity to crack the records given the number of minutes available to them.  If they don't do it, it's hard to say they are superior.

[Brewtown Andy]

How has Buzz proven he's a superior recruiter?  The only recruits of his anyone has seen play are Butler, Fulce & Otule.   

Buzz came in with a rep as a great recruiter, so do we want to count the guys he brought in that put Texas A&M on their recent prosperity?

[MR.HAYWARD]

Buzz came in with a rep as a great recruiter, so do we want to count the guys he brought in that put Texas A&M on their recent prosperity?

agreed  and i have said that before Texas A & M is enjoying it's greatest three years stretch in school history with as much talent as they have ever had due to the efforts of Buzz.  not bad for the absolute end of the earth Big 12  basketball program historically.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

How has Buzz proven he's a superior recruiter?  The only recruits of his anyone has seen play are Butler, Fulce & Otule.   Yes, he landed many promising recruits for next year--but nobody knows how they're going to pan, whether they become head cases, are injury prone, etc. 

Buzz hasn't had the anchor of a Final Four appearance weighing him down on the recruiting trail.

[4everwarriors]

Or an NBA megastar to trumpet.

[bilsu]

He is a superior recruiter. The only questions that remains is whether he can develope talent. If a player like McMorrow gets hurt you cannot blame that on bad recruiting. Injuries to James, Fulce, Otule and McMorrow are bad luck and hopefully that evens out over time. Look at Crean's class that just graduated. Matthews missed several games as a freshman with a stress fracture. McNeal missed the end of his sophomore season with a hand injury. James missed the end of his senior year with a broken foot.  Only Burke survived without any serious injury and he basically did not play his first two year By time this freshmen class are juniors MU will be a preseason final four contender. By that I mean they will get a lot of mention as a potential final four team.

[Ready2Fly]

Buzz hasn't had the anchor of a Final Four appearance weighing him down on the recruiting trail.

Ha!  That was absolutely one of the worst arguments I've ever read.

[MR.HAYWARD]

have not heard much of Mu84 lately, he either got back on his meds or his mom took the computer away.  poor Riley he seems to be a troubled kid.  Maybe all the awards his dad gave him at the Mu camps messed him up somehow.

[Skatastrophy]

Ha!  That was absolutely one of the worst arguments I've ever read.

Your sarcasm detector needs a tune-up.

[Marquette84]

have not heard much of Mu84 lately, he either got back on his meds or his mom took the computer away.  poor Riley he seems to be a troubled kid.  Maybe all the awards his dad gave him at the Mu camps messed him up somehow.

I'm going to call you on this one.  It is clearly in violation of the rules of the board:

  Some (very brief) forum rules:
* Respect other posters.  Insults, and flames will not be tolerated

I think your post definitely crosses the line. 

If you want to engage on basketball matters, then do so.  Your contribution in this thread amounts to nothing more than insults and flames.

[Ready2Fly]

Your sarcasm detector needs a tune-up.

No, I totally got it.  He was taking a shot a Marquette84 for one of the worst arguments I've ever read (making a final four hurts recruiting)...  unless I'm missing something?

[Mayor McCheese]

I'm going to call you on this one.  It is clearly in violation of the rules of the board:

  Some (very brief) forum rules:
* Respect other posters.  Insults, and flames will not be tolerated

I think your post definitely crosses the line. 

If you want to engage on basketball matters, then do so.  Your contribution in this thread amounts to nothing more than insults and flames.

But if we get rid of Mr. Hayward, who will give me my laughs throughout the day.  I can't rely on the students for everything.


But onto the subject:

Buzz has done a fine job in his first year, still waiting to see these guys pan out, I have questions on all of the players minus Cadougan, Williams and Maymon

[Hards Alumni]

I'm going to call you on this one.  It is clearly in violation of the rules of the board:

  Some (very brief) forum rules:
* Respect other posters.  Insults, and flames will not be tolerated

I think your post definitely crosses the line. 

If you want to engage on basketball matters, then do so.  Your contribution in this thread amounts to nothing more than insults and flames.

translation: boo hoo, someone made fun o fmy on the internets.

[ChicosBailBonds]

No, I totally got it.  He was taking a shot a Marquette84 for one of the worst arguments I've ever read (making a final four hurts recruiting)...  unless I'm missing something?

I'd say yes, you guys are "missing something".

I think you guys again didn't bother to read what he actually said in his COMPLETE argument.   Making a final four isn't going to hurt that coach necessarily depending on the situation.  What he was saying was that making the final four at a place like Marquette in the initial years of his tenure "may" have hurt him in recruiting because the assumption was that he was going to leave.

You guys keep forgetting that important aspect of his argument....at least that's how I read it.  So in essence, it wasn't really the final four part that hurts, it's the baggage that goes along with it WHEN paired at a place like MU that had gone to ONE SWEET 16 in the previous 20 years.   

That doesn't mean I necessarily agree with his argument, but you guys are stripping out many important aspects in your effort to pillory him. 

The assumption was that Crean was GONE after the Final Four and when every coach is recruiting out there saying that..... IT HURTS RECRUITING.  So his argument was that the Final Four at THAT TIME in a young coach's career at a school that hadn't tasted success in decades hurt recruiting because so much success had come to MU and Crean, the conventional wisdom was that he was gone.  That hurts recruiting and was expedited by the Final Four appearance.  Far different then what you guys are stating his argument was.  FAR DIFFERENT.

[Nukem2]

I agree with Chicos.  84's argument is not out in left field.  As it was, rumor's of TC's imminent departure were rampant every spring.  Other than the recruitment of the 3 Amigos (with the promise of the BE) and LH, I would say that those rumors did impact MU's recruting.  Had TC stayed and kept Ty Taylor and Mbakwe, TC may have been able to turn that corner.  Obviously we'll never know now.   

[Hards Alumni]

LH was a 3 star, 95% sure on that.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Total BS. What you're actually saying is that Crean's repeated and very public dalliances with other schools hurt his recruiting. Of course, the reality is it was his personality that hurt him.

How did Georgia Tech land Shumpert? Their coach made a recent Final Four and he has been rumored to be on his way out the door (fired) for a couple years. But he beat us out. How does that work?

It wasn't the Final Four appearance.

If he hadn't openly suggested Crean start adopting recruits to avoid burning scholarship, the entire idea would be the most illogical thing SJS1 has ever said on either board.

[MUViking]

LH was a 3 star, 95% sure on that.

If you're referring to Lazar, he was generally perceived to be a 4-star recruit.

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=1748266

http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/viewprospect.asp?Sport=2&pr_key=39578

[muarmy81]

Total BS. What you're actually saying is that Crean's repeated and very public dalliances with other schools hurt his recruiting. Of course, the reality is it was his personality that hurt him.

How did Georgia Tech land Shumpert? Their coach made a recent Final Four and he has been rumored to be on his way out the door (fired) for a couple years. But he beat us out. How does that work?

It wasn't the Final Four appearance.

If he hadn't openly suggested Crean start adopting recruits to avoid burning scholarship, the entire idea would be the most illogical thing SJS1 has ever said on either board.

Wow, excellent example

[Nukem2]

Total BS. What you're actually saying is that Crean's repeated and very public dalliances with other schools hurt his recruiting. Of course, the reality is it was his personality that hurt him.

How did Georgia Tech land Shumpert? Their coach made a recent Final Four and he has been rumored to be on his way out the door (fired) for a couple years. But he beat us out. How does that work?

It wasn't the Final Four appearance.

If he hadn't openly suggested Crean start adopting recruits to avoid burning scholarship, the entire idea would be the most illogical thing SJS1 has ever said on either board.

Paul Hewitt was never on one of those "hot seats" per the media gurus until this spring.  The signing of Derrick Favors deterred that.  Shumpert simply wanted to be in a large warm weather city in the ACC.  BTW, TC followed that up by signing Tyshawn Taylor who is as good as Shumpert in my estimation and may be better down the road.

[Hards Alumni]

If you're referring to Lazar, he was generally perceived to be a 4-star recruit.

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=1748266

http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/viewprospect.asp?Sport=2&pr_key=39578

well egg in my face.

funny that they list him as a SG

[Marquette84]

Wow, excellent example

Yes, a perfect example..

Georgia Tech made the final four in 2004.

In 2004 Hewitt was rumored to be leaving for St. Johns:
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/2004/03/19/2004-03-19_storm_rumors_for_calipari__h.html

And another from 2005 it was the Knicks in the NBA:
http://community.msgnetwork.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/55310655/m/14010927

In 2006 it was Oklahoma;
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/sioncampus/04/04/college/index.html

Need I point out that Georgia Tech recruiting suffered in 2004-2006 as compared to 2002.  

It took Hewitt years to downplay the rumors, just as it took Crean years to downplay rumors and land players like James, McNeal, Matthews, Hayward, Mbakwe, Taylor, Williams, etc.

[MR.HAYWARD]

please do not get Riley started on possibly the most retarded logic ever defending the horific recruiting over the last 4 years of tom Cream.  there is simply no logic to it first he cant recruit becuase of it and per his last post now apparently he could.  Unfortunately he only named 7 players and failed to mention the other 6 players on the roster that were largely non D1 talent.  so he could recruit or he could not was the final 4 and Be holding him down or was it not.  Please Riley when you enter junior high please take a logic class.  sorry if i hurt your feelings maybe Joanie will give you cookies and milk.  oh and by the way the "rumors" may not have hampered your father if your logic is true if he was not sniffing around evey job in the country when not renegotiating his contract.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Total BS. What you're actually saying is that Crean's repeated and very public dalliances with other schools hurt his recruiting. Of course, the reality is it was his personality that hurt him.

How did Georgia Tech land Shumpert? Their coach made a recent Final Four and he has been rumored to be on his way out the door (fired) for a couple years. But he beat us out. How does that work?

It wasn't the Final Four appearance.

If he hadn't openly suggested Crean start adopting recruits to avoid burning scholarship, the entire idea would be the most illogical thing SJS1 has ever said on either board.

Rumored to be fired and rumored to leave on their own are two completely different things.  There are a lot of coaches on the "hot seat" that never actually are.  Hewitt got Shumpert for many reasons....good for him.   

All one has to do was look at MU's previous 20 years with ZERO coaches lasting more than 5 years to know the conventional wisdom stating he was going to leave was probably accurate.  If anything, him staying for 9 years was as big a shock as anything at MU in many a decade.

Majerus = 3 years
Dukiet = 3 years
O'Neill = 5 years
Deane = 5 years
Crean = Final Four in year 4.....safe to say that people thought he was going to leave based on what had happened to the previous 4 coaches


I don't want to put words into MU84's mouth, but I'm guessing his argument would be that if Crean had gone to a Final Four in say year 7 or 8, it would effect recruiting differently then happening so fast.  Again, I'm just guessing that would be his argument.  Nevertheless, until MU can get a coach to STAY at MU for the longhaul, those rumors of a guy jumping will be prevelent....add a lot of success and the rumors just get exaggerated that much more.


PS  Deane entertained offers of leaving in year 3 and 4.  So did Crean.  So did KO.  Rick up and left.   You're kidding yourself if you don't think they all don't do it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

translation: boo hoo, someone made fun o fmy on the internets.

Hayward should be given another "vacation" from the board like he has in times past.

[ErickJD08]

Is anyone else thinking that Crean wouldn't have to downplay leaving if they were not true.  If Crean puts his feelers out every year or doing something that is hurting the team, he is not a good recruiter.  Plus, I love the list of players recruited by Crean have about half from one year and half in another school.  

I don't care what anyone says, Tom Crean was not a good recruiter.  Indiana or not, we had a MASSIVE hole at the 5 spot that he did not address in 2006.  TM was not the answer.  I know there are people on this board that think that he is the second coming of God knows what, but he wasn't.  TT or Nick Williams were not the answer for our future need of a solid PG.  Acker is a backup.  We all know that.  After the trio, recruiting one player of significant talent over 2 years is VERY poor.  I pop on this board and people talk about some of the great coaches in this league but its no mystery.  You need players to win.  Those coaches get about 2 or 3 players EVERY YEAR that have great talent or huge upside.  Crean got three winners one year, one the next, and THAT'S IT.  I will credit Crean with being able to assess talent but he had ZERO CLUE about addressing team needs.

[Lennys Tap]

Rumored to be fired and rumored to leave on their own are two completely different things.  There are a lot of coaches on the "hot seat" that never actually are.  Hewitt got Shumpert for many reasons....good for him.   

All one has to do was look at MU's previous 20 years with ZERO coaches lasting more than 5 years to know the conventional wisdom stating he was going to leave was probably accurate.  If anything, him staying for 9 years was as big a shock as anything at MU in many a decade.

Majerus = 3 years
Dukiet = 3 years
O'Neill = 5 years
Deane = 5 years
Crean = Final Four in year 4.....safe to say that people thought he was going to leave based on what had happened to the previous 4 coaches


I don't want to put words into MU84's mouth, but I'm guessing his argument would be that if Crean had gone to a Final Four in say year 7 or 8, it would effect recruiting differently then happening so fast.  Again, I'm just guessing that would be his argument.  Nevertheless, until MU can get a coach to STAY at MU for the longhaul, those rumors of a guy jumping will be prevelent....add a lot of success and the rumors just get exaggerated that much more.


PS  Deane entertained offers of leaving in year 3 and 4.  So did Crean.  So did KO.  Rick up and left.   You're kidding yourself if you don't think they all don't do it

It's "safe to say that people thought he was going to leave based on what happened to the previous 4 coaches"? Rick left because he couldn't cut it as a head coach, Dukiet and Deane were canned and KO made the first of several dubious decisions on the road to becoming a career assistant. How does any of this morph logically into an arguement that successful coaches  jumping ship had become the norm at MU?

[Mayor McCheese]

please do not get Riley started on possibly the most retarded logic ever defending the horific recruiting over the last 4 years of tom Cream.  there is simply no logic to it first he cant recruit becuase of it and per his last post now apparently he could.  Unfortunately he only named 7 players and failed to mention the other 6 players on the roster that were largely non D1 talent.  so he could recruit or he could not was the final 4 and Be holding him down or was it not.  Please Riley when you enter junior high please take a logic class.  sorry if i hurt your feelings maybe Joanie will give you cookies and milk.  oh and by the way the "rumors" may not have hampered your father if your logic is true if he was not sniffing around evey job in the country when not renegotiating his contract.   

Holy Crap, can someone translate this for me?

Why does Mr. Hayward's rants sound like an old-school WWF interview with the pathetic taunts and attacks?  I just find it odd that he attacks someone on this board's education, when he is BY FAR the hardest to read, and not due to intellect.  Mr. Hayward, are you a student of MU...wait, I don't want to know that answer for the alum's sake.

Honestly, we are comparing one class from Buzz (who hasn't played a game in a MU jersey) to Tom Crean's classes, which brought us a FF and success in the BE, something that 10-15 years ago we didn't dream of.

October can't come soon enough.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Lenny, Deane tried to jump ship BEFORE he was fired.  KO did jump ship.  Rick DID jump ship.  Crean Did jump ship.

4 of the 5 I mentioned tried or did jump ship before year 5.  Only Dukiet didn't.

[muarmy81]

Yes, a perfect example..

Georgia Tech made the final four in 2004.

In 2004 Hewitt was rumored to be leaving for St. Johns:
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/2004/03/19/2004-03-19_storm_rumors_for_calipari__h.html

And another from 2005 it was the Knicks in the NBA:
http://community.msgnetwork.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/55310655/m/14010927

In 2006 it was Oklahoma;
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/sioncampus/04/04/college/index.html

Need I point out that Georgia Tech recruiting suffered in 2004-2006 as compared to 2002.  

It took Hewitt years to downplay the rumors, just as it took Crean years to downplay rumors and land players like James, McNeal, Matthews, Hayward, Mbakwe, Taylor, Williams, etc.

2007...the rumors start coming out that Hewitt is on the hot seat
2008...rumors continue that Hewitt is gone, many argue that the only reason he's still at Tech is because of the Favors commitment and how has recruiting been bad between 2004-2006?  He landed Gani Lawal...too bad he's leaving school early for the NBA.

So is it easier to downplay rumors that you're going to a better gig? (would mean that you must be doing something right)

Or is it easier to downplay rumors that you're about to get canned? (Probably means that you're not doing something right)

[Marquette65]

I live in Atlanta. Believe it when it is said that the only reason Hewitt is still at Ga. Tech is Favors. Tech won 2 games in the ACC this year.  There were LOTS of empty seats at their home games. Money was raised and available to buy out his contract.

The Ga. Tech AD fired the football coach for a lack of progress in the program and was/is very concerned about the lack of progress and the loss of revenue w/ the empty seats w/the basketball program. 

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny, Deane tried to jump ship BEFORE he was fired.  KO did jump ship.  Rick DID jump ship.  Crean Did jump ship.

4 of the 5 I mentioned tried or did jump ship before year 5.  Only Dukiet didn't.

Your point was that TC was following a pattern set by his predecessors at MU. Therefore HIS "jumping ship" is irrelevant to your postulation. Two of the four were canned, and whether or not Deane explored the possibility of jumping before (or while) being pushed is moot. Rick technically left on his own, but he'd be the first to tell you he took a step back to learn his profession. Only KO fits your description (successful coach seeking "better" opportunity) and his decisions about what was better were curious at best - MU to Tennesee to Northwestern to the NBA (as an assistant) to Arizona (as an assistant). That's what I call a PLAN!

So by my count you get 2 of 4 and one of those is a technicality. The only one whose path TC really followed was KO's. And for KO the path led from young head coach at MU to aging assistant at Arizona. Maybe if Tom Izzo is still at MSU in 2020 he'll welcome TC back home.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Is anyone else thinking that Crean wouldn't have to downplay leaving if they were not true.  If Crean puts his feelers out every year or doing something that is hurting the team, he is not a good recruiter.  Plus, I love the list of players recruited by Crean have about half from one year and half in another school.  

I don't care what anyone says, Tom Crean was not a good recruiter.  Indiana or not, we had a MASSIVE hole at the 5 spot that he did not address in 2006.  TM was not the answer.  I know there are people on this board that think that he is the second coming of God knows what, but he wasn't.  TT or Nick Williams were not the answer for our future need of a solid PG.  Acker is a backup.  We all know that.  After the trio, recruiting one player of significant talent over 2 years is VERY poor.  I pop on this board and people talk about some of the great coaches in this league but its no mystery.  You need players to win.  Those coaches get about 2 or 3 players EVERY YEAR that have great talent or huge upside.  Crean got three winners one year, one the next, and THAT'S IT.  I will credit Crean with being able to assess talent but he had ZERO CLUE about addressing team needs.

Except that your statement is factually incorrect. First, NO ONE thinks he is the second coming of God.  Everyone agrees he had trouble landing a 5.

But your comment: "After the trio, recruiting one player of significant talent over 2 years is VERY poor."  That is just factually incorrect on every level.  He recruited MULTIPLE players after the trio, not just one.  He landed Mbakwe....top 100 player (RSCI).  He landed Lazar Hayward, will go down as likely top 5 scorer all time for MU and top 10 rebounder (top 100 for those ratings that included a Prep player).  He landed Tyshawn Taylor, top 100 player (RSCI) and starter as a freshman for Kansas.  He landed Nick Williams, top 100 player (in some services).  As head coach, he landed Erik Williams (yes, Buzz was the recruiter....just as Dale Layer was the recruiter for Bowen....head coach gets the credit....consensus top 100 player RSCI).  So your comments are just totally devoid of facts.  I count at least 5 top 100 players right there (not 1) as you suggested.


Finally, it's one thing to say he couldn't assess the team needs (or as you stated, he was clueless) and quite another in filling those needs.  I'd argue he absolutely had a clue with what the team needs were but he just couldn't fill them.  If he didn't have a clue, he wouldn't have bothered trying to land all the bigs he went after...would he?  Of course not.  So your comments, again, seem much more based on opinion then facts.   He wouldn't have wasted his time going after Butch, Stiemsma, McFarland, Anderson, Nankivil, Sutton, etc, etc, etc if he didn't want some bigs to come to MU.  Unfortunately for us, he often got to the top final 5 (or final 2) in those recriting battles but couldn't win the kids.  That by no means suggests he didn't understand the need, filling is a completely different story (that requires the kid to say yes).

[ChicosBailBonds]

2007...the rumors start coming out that Hewitt is on the hot seat
2008...rumors continue that Hewitt is gone, many argue that the only reason he's still at Tech is because of the Favors commitment and how has recruiting been bad between 2004-2006?  He landed Gani Lawal...too bad he's leaving school early for the NBA.

So is it easier to downplay rumors that you're going to a better gig? (would mean that you must be doing something right)

Or is it easier to downplay rumors that you're about to get canned? (Probably means that you're not doing something right)

For a guy on the hot seat for so long, how does he still have a job?      I think he is on the Hot Seat now, but two years ago the rumors were a bit much in my opinion.  He was coming off a NCAA bid (2006-07) so that never made sense to me as anything with legitimacy.

After this last year he had, he's definitely on the hot seat (miracle he has a job).  It does beg the question why after his Final Four hasn't he been able to keep it going?  Why was Tubby not able to?  How about Gary Williams?  Bruce Weber to some extent?  The LSU coach (Brady).  Etc, etc, etc. 

A Final Four is ZERO guarantee of success in the future.  That's for sure.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Your point was that TC was following a pattern set by his predecessors at MU. Therefore HIS "jumping ship" is irrelevant to your postulation. Two of the four were canned, and whether or not Deane explored the possibility of jumping before (or while) being pushed is moot. Rick technically left on his own, but he'd be the first to tell you he took a step back to learn his profession. Only KO fits your description (successful coach seeking "better" opportunity) and his decisions about what was better were curious at best - MU to Tennesee to Northwestern to the NBA (as an assistant) to Arizona (as an assistant). That's what I call a PLAN!

So by my count you get 2 of 4 and one of those is a technicality. The only one whose path TC really followed was KO's. And for KO the path led from young head coach at MU to aging assistant at Arizona. Maybe if Tom Izzo is still at MSU in 2020 he'll welcome TC back home.

Well we will agree to disagree.  4 of the 5 tried to leave or did leave.  MU was a stepping stone school.  Crean had just landed at the Final Four, conventional wisdom said he would leave (MU was still in CUSA, practiced at the complete joke that is the Old Gym, etc, etc).  People want to continue to deny what a stepping stone state we were in, but that was the absolute reality.

Crean decided to stay and make a go of it (along with heavy inducement to stay =  $$$$ and better facilities).  But rest assured other coaches were using that conventional wisdom thought process every step of the way.  That hurt recruiting.  Crean's name came up with every search (whether he put it there or not, it came up for one reason....MU was seen as a stepping stone school and better jobs were out there).  Until we got in the Big East were we able to finally say MU could play again with the big boys and not have to worry as much about losing a coach, until then it wasn't the case.

[Marquette84]

Your point was that TC was following a pattern set by his predecessors at MU. Therefore HIS "jumping ship" is irrelevant to your postulation. Two of the four were canned, and whether or not Deane explored the possibility of jumping before (or while) being pushed is moot. Rick technically left on his own, but he'd be the first to tell you he took a step back to learn his profession. Only KO fits your description (successful coach seeking "better" opportunity) and his decisions about what was better were curious at best - MU to Tennesee to Northwestern to the NBA (as an assistant) to Arizona (as an assistant). That's what I call a PLAN!

So by my count you get 2 of 4 and one of those is a technicality. The only one whose path TC really followed was KO's. And for KO the path led from young head coach at MU to aging assistant at Arizona. Maybe if Tom Izzo is still at MSU in 2020 he'll welcome TC back home.

Look, here's the general trend I cited:

1. Unproven, young coach brought in to revive a once-proud program that has fallen on hard times (or taking over for a recently departed coach).

2. New coach has outstanding recruiting class in his first couple of years.

3. New coach rides that outstanding recruiting to NCAA success.

4.  Rumors of departure for greener pastures surface and there is a corresponding decline in recruiting for several seasons.

5.  Coach either leaves for greener pastures, or recruiting recovers when player stop thinking of the coach as an risk to depart.


I don't want to play rope a dope with whether Hewitt was perceived to be a bigger threat to leave after the final four or when he was on the "hotseat."  

The bottom line is he fits the general trend to a T--big recruiting haul when he first arrived, significant success, final four appearance, relative decline in recruiting, recovery in the quality of his recruiting after a couple of down years.  

Same pattern with Crean. Same pattern with Wright.  Same pattern again and again with coach after coach.

Those who claim that I'm wrong who say that Crean was just a lousy recruiter cannot offer any explanation as to why he recruited good players early at MU, and good players later on, but only suffered in the middle for two years after the final four.  

At some point, you would concede that there is a pattern here that seems to happens frequently.

We'll see what happens with Buzz.  He may well buck the trend.  He may wind up seeing the 2012 season end with a final four run, with DJO, Otule and Clark graduating, and Cadougan and Maymon entering the draft early, leaving Buzz with with five scholsarhips to hand out.  He may well equal the #1 recruiting class he had this year.  I would say that we should expect a blockbuster class with 5 scholies to hand out.  Anything less, and one has to wonder what went wrong.

Frankly, I could just as easily see the 2012 recruits taking a wait-and-see attitude to see if Buzz leaves for the high profile Big 12 or ACC or SEC vacancy that he WILL be rumored to be the #1 target.  If Buzz winds up filling the scholarships with five players who don't quite measure up to the quality of the five that are leaving, then he becomes another example of a coach who fits the above pattern.  

[ErickJD08]

Except that your statement is factually incorrect. First, NO ONE thinks he is the second coming of God.  Everyone agrees he had trouble landing a 5.

But your comment: "After the trio, recruiting one player of significant talent over 2 years is VERY poor."  That is just factually incorrect on every level.  He recruited MULTIPLE players after the trio, not just one.  He landed Mbakwe....top 100 player (RSCI).  He landed Lazar Hayward, will go down as likely top 5 scorer all time for MU and top 10 rebounder (top 100 for those ratings that included a Prep player).  He landed Tyshawn Taylor, top 100 player (RSCI) and starter as a freshman for Kansas.  He landed Nick Williams, top 100 player (in some services).  As head coach, he landed Erik Williams (yes, Buzz was the recruiter....just as Dale Layer was the recruiter for Bowen....head coach gets the credit....consensus top 100 player RSCI).  So your comments are just totally devoid of facts.  I count at least 5 top 100 players right there (not 1) as you suggested.


Finally, it's one thing to say he couldn't assess the team needs (or as you stated, he was clueless) and quite another in filling those needs.  I'd argue he absolutely had a clue with what the team needs were but he just couldn't fill them.  If he didn't have a clue, he wouldn't have bothered trying to land all the bigs he went after...would he?  Of course not.  So your comments, again, seem much more based on opinion then facts.   He wouldn't have wasted his time going after Butch, Stiemsma, McFarland, Anderson, Nankivil, Sutton, etc, etc, etc if he didn't want some bigs to come to MU.  Unfortunately for us, he often got to the top final 5 (or final 2) in those recriting battles but couldn't win the kids.  That by no means suggests he didn't understand the need, filling is a completely different story (that requires the kid to say yes).

If Crean can't land a big man, HE IS NOT A GOOD RECRUITER.  

OK... SORRY.  TC recruited 2 good players in two players in TWO YEARS.  And talking about facts, TT and Nick Williams was in the third year after the trio (and he needed a PG that year and they are not PGs).  Why is this two year period important?  Its how to build a high caliber team.   We have a great class next year.  But the recruiting in the next two years will be the difference between a good team and great team.  I will always remember Wade and the Final Four run and I will give credit to Crean.  If he gets credit for success, he has to take the credit for a failure.  Crean recruited a trio of players (MU greats) that were UNBELIEVABLE building blocks for a championship team and I will curse his for dropping the ball.  If TM is a center, he basically recruited a solid starting 5 in three years, but having the best starting 5 RARELY wins championships.  And the drop in talent and ability was gross between the starting 5 and the 6, 7, and 8.  

We needed a true Center desperately in 2006 and Crean couldn't pull through.  We needed a PG to take the torch for this season, he didn't get one in 2008.  NOW, as things stand, I am EXTREMELY happy with Buzz's job of recruiting and filling in the HUGE holes Crean left behind.  Solid PG and some big men (I started this thread to express my appreciation of Buzz's understanding that we needed another big man with McMorrow's career ending injury... and he pulled through in the clutch where Crean couldn't in two years) .  

[ChicosBailBonds]

If Crean can't land a big man, HE IS NOT A GOOD RECRUITER.  

OK... SORRY.  TC recruited 2 good players in two players in TWO YEARS.  And talking about facts, TT and Nick Williams was in the third year after the trio (and he needed a PG that year and they are not PGs).  Why is this two year period important?  Its how to build a high caliber team.   We have a great class next year.  But the recruiting in the next two years will be the difference between a good team and great team.  I will always remember Wade and the Final Four run and I will give credit to Crean.  If he gets credit for success, he has to take the credit for a failure.  Crean recruited a trio of players (MU greats) that were UNBELIEVABLE building blocks for a championship team and I will curse his for dropping the ball.  If TM is a center, he basically recruited a solid starting 5 in three years, but having the best starting 5 RARELY wins championships.  And the drop in talent and ability was gross between the starting 5 and the 6, 7, and 8.  

We needed a true Center desperately in 2006 and Crean couldn't pull through.  We needed a PG to take the torch for this season, he didn't get one in 2008.  NOW, as things stand, I am EXTREMELY happy with Buzz's job of recruiting and filling in the HUGE holes Crean left behind.  Solid PG and some big men (I started this thread to express my appreciation of Buzz's understanding that we needed another big man with McMorrow's career ending injury... and he pulled through in the clutch where Crean couldn't in two years) .  

It's hard to tell you are EXTREMELY satisfied with Buzz.   

Maybe I misread your statement, but I thought you said he recruited only ONE player that was any good after the trio.  I named 5 just off the top of my head.  If I misinterpreted your comments, forgive me but that's how I took them.

I don't know if Crean was a good recruiter, piss poor recruiter, great recruiter, or what have you.  I tend to think that opinions that say HE IS NOT A GOOD RECRUITER (your statements) are way too broad and have too many other danglers of emotion attached to them (just my opinion).

So if he was not a good recruiter, he must have been a good coach because it would be nearly impossible to have the 3rd best record in the Big East in 4 years if he wasn't a good recruiter....right?   


Personally, I think he was an above average recruiter overall, a great recruiter for guards, a poor recruiter at the 5 spot.  I think comments saying he didn't understand the needs of the team are baseless, he certainly did but couldn't land the kids.  It's like saying a GM doesn't understand the needs that his team needs a top QB but because of his draft position isn't able to take a top QB (he gets it, doesn't mean he has the ability to draft them).

I thank Crean for his 9 years, the wonderful players he brought in, etc.  I'm frustrated as much as anyone about the lack of quality bigs, it certainly hurt.  He went after them, he didn't get them.  Such is life.  Somehow, despite having a coach "WHO IS NOT A GOOD RECRUITER" we ended up with some very successful years at MU.  I hope it continues, I'm sure it will.

[Lennys Tap]

Look, here's the general trend I cited:

1. Unproven, young coach brought in to revive a once-proud program that has fallen on hard times (or taking over for a recently departed coach).

2. New coach has outstanding recruiting class in his first couple of years.

3. New coach rides that outstanding recruiting to NCAA success.

4.  Rumors of departure for greener pastures surface and there is a corresponding decline in recruiting for several seasons.

5.  Coach either leaves for greener pastures, or recruiting recovers when player stop thinking of the coach as an risk to depart.


I don't want to play rope a dope with whether Hewitt was perceived to be a bigger threat to leave after the final four or when he was on the "hotseat."  

The bottom line is he fits the general trend to a T--big recruiting haul when he first arrived, significant success, final four appearance, relative decline in recruiting, recovery in the quality of his recruiting after a couple of down years.  

Same pattern with Crean. Same pattern with Wright.  Same pattern again and again with coach after coach.

Those who claim that I'm wrong who say that Crean was just a lousy recruiter cannot offer any explanation as to why he recruited good players early at MU, and good players later on, but only suffered in the middle for two years after the final four.  

At some point, you would concede that there is a pattern here that seems to happens frequently.

We'll see what happens with Buzz.  He may well buck the trend.  He may wind up seeing the 2012 season end with a final four run, with DJO, Otule and Clark graduating, and Cadougan and Maymon entering the draft early, leaving Buzz with with five scholsarhips to hand out.  He may well equal the #1 recruiting class he had this year.  I would say that we should expect a blockbuster class with 5 scholies to hand out.  Anything less, and one has to wonder what went wrong.

Frankly, I could just as easily see the 2012 recruits taking a wait-and-see attitude to see if Buzz leaves for the high profile Big 12 or ACC or SEC vacancy that he WILL be rumored to be the #1 target.  If Buzz winds up filling the scholarships with five players who don't quite measure up to the quality of the five that are leaving, then he becomes another example of a coach who fits the above pattern.  

I happen to agree with the general thrust of your post but I think you were intending to reply to a different post than mine.

[Lennys Tap]

It's hard to tell you are EXTREMELY satisfied with Buzz.   

Maybe I misread your statement, but I thought you said he recruited only ONE player that was any good after the trio.  I named 5 just off the top of my head.  If I misinterpreted your comments, forgive me but that's how I took them.

I don't know if Crean was a good recruiter, piss poor recruiter, great recruiter, or what have you.  I tend to think that opinions that say HE IS NOT A GOOD RECRUITER (your statements) are way too broad and have too many other danglers of emotion attached to them (just my opinion).

So if he was not a good recruiter, he must have been a good coach because it would be nearly impossible to have the 3rd best record in the Big East in 4 years if he wasn't a good recruiter....right?   


Personally, I think he was an above average recruiter overall, a great recruiter for guards, a poor recruiter at the 5 spot.  I think comments saying he didn't understand the needs of the team are baseless, he certainly did but couldn't land the kids.  It's like saying a GM doesn't understand the needs that his team needs a top QB but because of his draft position isn't able to take a top QB (he gets it, doesn't mean he has the ability to draft them).

I thank Crean for his 9 years, the wonderful players he brought in, etc.  I'm frustrated as much as anyone about the lack of quality bigs, it certainly hurt.  He went after them, he didn't get them.  Such is life.  Somehow, despite having a coach "WHO IS NOT A GOOD RECRUITER" we ended up with some very successful years at MU.  I hope it continues, I'm sure it will.

"I hope it continues, I'm SURE it will." I love that you've joined us out on the limb. Welcome.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Don't you know Lenny I had my fingers crossed when I said that.