Real MLB Thread

[MU82]

From August 8, the Cubs would have had to gone 29-18 to win the Division, which only the Dodgers, Yankees, Twins and Astros were able to do for the entire season.  On September 5th, they would have had to have gone 14-9 to finish ahead of the Brewers, which only the Dodgers, Yankees and Astros were able to do for the entire season. Basically, the Cubs would have had to play like a 100 win team (which they were not) over those two periods to make the playoffs.  If they had played their Pythagorean season rate for those two time periods, 26-21 to go 89-73 (tie the Brewers!) from August 8 and 13-10 to go 89-73 from September 5 (tie the Brewers!).  Either way, you tip your cap to the Brewers and Cards for playing well in August/ September.

The choking thing is probably the laziest narrative in all of sports.  In September, the Cubs featured 6 regular starters who played in the most intense Game 7 of the World Series in recent history (not Castellanos or Horner).  They also started 4 pitchers with World Series experience, including their worst starter who was the World Series MVP.  Their best starter during this time period was a guy who was known for "choking" during the 2017 World Series.  Their "worst" loss in that stretch, the Saturday Cardinals game, they came back from a deficit 3 different times to take the lead.  And their closer was just in the World Series last year.  It didn't happen this year, but the take that the guys "peed down their leg" is just untrue.  In a game where your offense is limited to the amount of opportunities it gets to score, stuff like this happens.

The Cubs had opportunities to both improve their own win total and to knock down their rivals' win totals by just doing better in their games against the Brewers and the Cardinals. For example, if the $45 million reliever didn't serve up meatballs in back-to-back games, maybe it would have changed some of the narrative ... or maybe not. We'll never know.

Otherwise, MUDPT, you make many excellent points. I also do not like lazy narratives, and perhaps in this case I'm guilty as charged.

Other teams, especially the Brewers, were able to overcome some adversity to prevail, while this time the Cubs were not. You are right: That's sports, and that happens. The Cubbies certainly had a nice multi-year run before that, and if I were a fan of the team I'd be pretty damn grateful for it.

[#UnleashSean]

LOL.  I don’t think you understand the meaning of the big word you tried to use.  There is also some psychology out there that people are frustrated or angry at others who mirror themselves.  Enjoy that one.

Incidentally, people have killed in the name of peace, as well.  It is a complicated world, always has been and always will be.

Still waiting for the new, improved hoopaloop who begged for Scoop forgiveness and vowed to change.

Kindly remove yourselves from scoop and find some people who actually want to hear this nonsense from the two of you. Maybe start up a youtube channel? IDK, IDC just leave.

[Sheriff]

All right. You win. Cubbies didn't choke at all. They never have. Not in '69 or '84 or '03 or '04 or any of the other times. Just victims of a lot of bad luck.

The futility of the Cubs in late 2019 does indeed resemble what happened in the other years you have cited.  The decimation of their starting lineup this year however was comparably unprecedented.

[Sheriff]

The Cubs had opportunities to both improve their own win total and to knock down their rivals' win totals by just doing better in their games against the Brewers and the Cardinals. For example, if the $45 million reliever didn't serve up meatballs in back-to-back games, maybe it would have changed some of the narrative ... or maybe not. We'll never know.

Otherwise, MUDPT, you make many excellent points. I also do not like lazy narratives, and perhaps in this case I'm guilty as charged.

Other teams, especially the Brewers, were able to overcome some adversity to prevail, while this time the Cubs were not. You are right: That's sports, and that happens. The Cubbies certainly had a nice multi-year run before that, and if I were a fan of the team I'd be pretty damn grateful for it.

That's Ok.  You already conceded to me that it wasn't a choke.  "Just a lot of bad luck."

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Cheeks and Nads really clowning themselves in this thread.   

[HouWarrior]

From August 8, the Cubs would have had to gone 29-18 to win the Division, which only the Dodgers, Yankees, Twins and Astros were able to do for the entire season.  On September 5th, they would have had to have gone 14-9 to finish ahead of the Brewers, which only the Dodgers, Yankees and Astros were able to do for the entire season. Basically, the Cubs would have had to play like a 100 win team (which they were not) over those two periods to make the playoffs.  If they had played their Pythagorean season rate for those two time periods, 26-21 to go 89-73 (tie the Brewers!) from August 8 and 13-10 to go 89-73 from September 5 (tie the Brewers!).  Either way, you tip your cap to the Brewers and Cards for playing well in August/ September.

The choking thing is probably the laziest narrative in all of sports.  In September, the Cubs featured 6 regular starters who played in the most intense Game 7 of the World Series in recent history (not Castellanos or Horner).  They also started 4 pitchers with World Series experience, including their worst starter who was the World Series MVP.  Their best starter during this time period was a guy who was known for "choking" during the 2017 World Series.  Their "worst" loss in that stretch, the Saturday Cardinals game, they came back from a deficit 3 different times to take the lead.  And their closer was just in the World Series last year.  It didn't happen this year, but the take that the guys "peed down their leg" is just untrue.  In a game where your offense is limited to the amount of opportunities it gets to score, stuff like this happens.

I assume you refer to Darvish against Astros in 2017 series.

Astros smiled and would not admit to announcers in the postgame, but it was said Carlos Beltran alerted his fellow astros to the way Darvish was tipping his pitches....this was never proven or admitted, but Astros hit him around quite well... tipping ones pitches is not really choking....just a poor pitching habit

[JWags85]

I assume you refer to Darvish against Astros in 2017 series.

Astros smiled and would not admit to announcers in the postgame, but it was said Carlos Beltran alerted his fellow astros to the way Darvish was tipping his pitches....this was never proven or admitted, but Astros hit him around quite well... tipping ones pitches is not really choking....just a poor pitching habit

Darvish was a 4x All Star at that point, was in Cy Young discussions a few years prior, after a very accomplished career in Japan.   Tipping pitches is inexperienced/sloppy stuff for a pitcher.  For someone of Darvish's pedigree to that point, it was absolutely a result of nerves, the magnitude of the stage he was on...and symptomatic of a choke.  It would be like a guy like Yelich or Bregman, guys with great eyes and the plate and tremendous discipline, wildly waving at chase pitches and having repeated terrible at bats at key points in the game.  Mental errors due to stress and situation than bad habits.

[HouWarrior]

Darvish was a 4x All Star at that point, was in Cy Young discussions a few years prior, after a very accomplished career in Japan.   Tipping pitches is inexperienced/sloppy stuff for a pitcher.  For someone of Darvish's pedigree to that point, it was absolutely a result of nerves, the magnitude of the stage he was on...and symptomatic of a choke.  It would be like a guy like Yelich or Bregman, guys with great eyes and the plate and tremendous discipline, wildly waving at chase pitches and having repeated terrible at bats at key points in the game.  Mental errors due to stress and situation than bad habits.

Wow ...this is an odd way of claiming something could not have happened...but it did...

They waited until the series was over, but then admitted (widely published here in Houston)2017 Astro Carlos Beltran was with Darvish while at Rangers and he alerted his Astro teammates to watch for Darvish's regrip which is absent on his fastball, and which subtly tipped his breaking stuff...against which 'stros hit .556

See:
https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/12/11/dodgers-yu-darvish-tipped-pitches-world-series-astros

or:

https://www.businessinsider.com/yu-darvish-tipping-pitches-world-series-loss-2017-11

[dgies9156]

Did the Cubs choke or did the Cardinals and Brewers play to their potential? That's the beauty of baseball and a 162 game schedule. Over time, your weaknesses are exposed.

St. Louis has an excellent pitching staff and found ways to win. In the second half of the season, the team gelled around young pitching -- notably Flaherty, Hudson and Mikolas. The Cubs, by contrast, relied on a comparatively aged pitching staff that, by September, had worked an awful lot of innings. It would be akin to St. Louis relying on Wainwright or bringing Chris Carpenter back from the retired list.

The Cardinals played a lot like the Dodgers of the mid-1960s. A couple of runs and some good pitching!

The Cubs were a good ball club with notable pitching weaknesses. Those weaknesses sooner or later are going to cost you, as they did in the Cardinal series. There just wasn't a stopper in the bullpen. Period. It's not choking if you don't have what you need.

Milwaukee just played gutsy baseball down the stretch. You have to tip your hat to them because they squeezed everything out of what they had. When Yelich went down, I thought they were done. Put a fork in 'em. But Counsell deserves Manager of the Year for what he did with this team.

All in all an entertaining year.

[JWags85]

Wow ...this is an odd way of claiming something could not have happened...but it did...

They waited until the series was over, but then admitted (widely published here in Houston)2017 Astro Carlos Beltran was with Darvish while at Rangers and he alerted his Astro teammates to watch for Darvish's regrip which is absent on his fastball, and which subtly tipped his breaking stuff...against which 'stros hit .556

See:
https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/12/11/dodgers-yu-darvish-tipped-pitches-world-series-astros

or:

https://www.businessinsider.com/yu-darvish-tipping-pitches-world-series-loss-2017-11

You misunderstood me. I never said he didn’t tip pitches. Stop throwing articles at me. You claim he didn’t choke, rather choose to think the Astros were just so smart and clever they saw something nobody ever else did in 12 years of professional pitching, 6 in MLB.  Im saying if he had “poor pitching habits” which lead to him tipping pitches, it wouldn’t have taken till game 7 of a World Series to figure it out, especially not for someone that accomplished and successful. One of his calling cards coming into the league was how his motion was nearly identical for 5-6 pitches.

So clearly something broke down, which lead to him fiddling his glove, or his pre pitch motions, etc... like the moment being too big for him and him not performing...aka choking.

[jsglow]

Did the Cubs choke or did the Cardinals and Brewers play to their potential? That's the beauty of baseball and a 162 game schedule. Over time, your weaknesses are exposed.

St. Louis has an excellent pitching staff and found ways to win. In the second half of the season, the team gelled around young pitching -- notably Flaherty, Hudson and Mikolas. The Cubs, by contrast, relied on a comparatively aged pitching staff that, by September, had worked an awful lot of innings. It would be akin to St. Louis relying on Wainwright or bringing Chris Carpenter back from the retired list.

The Cardinals played a lot like the Dodgers of the mid-1960s. A couple of runs and some good pitching!

The Cubs were a good ball club with notable pitching weaknesses. Those weaknesses sooner or later are going to cost you, as they did in the Cardinal series. There just wasn't a stopper in the bullpen. Period. It's not choking if you don't have what you need.

Milwaukee just played gutsy baseball down the stretch. You have to tip your hat to them because they squeezed everything out of what they had. When Yelich went down, I thought they were done. Put a fork in 'em. But Counsell deserves Manager of the Year for what he did with this team.

All in all an entertaining year.

IDK what's gonna happen tonight but all of Brewer nation ought to be proud of this team and anxious for next year when October inevitably ends.  Couns is absolutely fantastic, they have great veteran leadership on the field and some very promising youngsters, and Stearns is a magician who bats .750+ on his wheelings and dealings.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

Tonight's WC game could be a good one.  The Nats only have 9 pitchers on their Wild Card Game Roster, and 4 of them are starters.  Scherzer is obviously starting, but I would guess the bring in Strasburg and Corbin as #2 and #3.

The Crew may not have a pitcher bat, (maybe Woodruff).  But if you get Woodruff for 3 innings, Suter for 2-3, Lyles for 2-3, Pomeranz for 1 and Hader for 1, Milwaukee's looking good.

[HouWarrior]

You misunderstood me. I never said he didn’t tip pitches. Stop throwing articles at me. You claim he didn’t choke, rather choose to think the Astros were just so smart and clever they saw something nobody ever else did in 12 years of professional pitching, 6 in MLB.  Im saying if he had “poor pitching habits” which lead to him tipping pitches, it wouldn’t have taken till game 7 of a World Series to figure it out, especially not for someone that accomplished and successful. One of his calling cards coming into the league was how his motion was nearly identical for 5-6 pitches.

So clearly something broke down, which lead to him fiddling his glove, or his pre pitch motions, etc... like the moment being too big for him and him not performing...aka choking.

Sorry I did misunderstand, and I did think you doubted the tipping occurred. I apologize.Totally my fault and misread

Also...I Wasnt trying to push anything with the articles and Astros surely didnt claim clever or even close . Beltran simply knew of Darvish tipping while  both were at Rangers.

I am also fine with you sourcing his tipping to  a WS choke ... clearly pressure can surface a recurring bad habit.

The WS was not isolated, ....As one article noted he got nailed by also tipping during a regular season game, too , to wit: ..."Though Darvish is one of the better pitchers in baseball, Wednesday night wasn't his first time giving away too much with his body language. He made a similar mistake over the summer when he was still with the Texas Rangers, pausing slightly before his fastballs during a 22-10 loss to the Miami Marlins. The 31-year-old said he was able to correct the problem after being made aware of it, but as in the World Series, it was too little, too late...."

[DegenerateDish]

An interesting Cubs offseason off to a rough start with the family losing $500 million today. They leveraged like crazy to buy the team and the other assets around Wrigley, be interesting to see if Ameritrade’s plunge hits the baseball organization. I said it before, I expect the Cubs to be on the selling block in the next 5 years, if not sooner.

[SaveOD238]

Tonight's WC game could be a good one.  The Nats only have 9 pitchers on their Wild Card Game Roster, and 4 of them are starters.  Scherzer is obviously starting, but I would guess the bring in Strasburg and Corbin as #2 and #3.

The Crew may not have a pitcher bat, (maybe Woodruff).  But if you get Woodruff for 3 innings, Suter for 2-3, Lyles for 2-3, Pomeranz for 1 and Hader for 1, Milwaukee's looking good.

Because the Brewers are on the road, it's entirely possible Woody's spot will come up in the 2nd before he pitches.  If it does, he'll hit.  If not till the 3rd, he might not.

[wadesworld]

Because the Brewers are on the road, it's entirely possible Woody's spot will come up in the 2nd before he pitches.  If it does, he'll hit.  If not till the 3rd, he might not.

Would be pretty surprised if he went more than 2. That’s what he’s been doing since returning. I don’t think they have any interest in Woody getting an AB.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I think they’ll stretch him tonight. They used those first couple as rehab type starts in preparation for a day like today.

[wadesworld]

Yup I was wrong. I did think there was a slight chance he goes up there and just takes pitches if nobody is on. Obviously he came up in a bunt situation so that worked out.

[buckchuckler]

This is a fun game.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Hader for 2 innings terrifies me

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Hader for 2 innings terrifies me

Oof

[CreightonWarrior]

Unbelievable.

[buckchuckler]

That was a brutal error.

[CreightonWarrior]

The HBP was absolute BS. Why have reviews?

[Bad_Reporter]

Rookies have been awful today.  Experience matters