Style of play and objectivity

[tower912]

If it didn't say 'Kentucky' on the jersey and it wasn't Calipari coaching them, what would you think of the style that the Wildcats play?    After all, they play good team defense, they share the ball on offense, they run, they are deep... other than 'Kentucky' and 'Calipari', what is there to dislike?

The same can be asked about Wisconsin.    If it didn't say 'Wisconsin' on the jersey, if the fanbase wasn't so bad, if it wasn't just down I-94, if it wasn't Bo, if they didn't get every call, what would you say about the way they play the game?
They move the ball, they shoot well, they are balanced, they play decent defense.   What is there to dislike about their play on the court?   (harder for me to write this one.   My disgust with their fanbase is so deep and abiding that it borders on impossible for me to look at the Badger basketball team objectively)

If you could take the names off of the front of the jerseys and remove yourself from your deep seeded dislikes, whose style appeals to you more?    And which one could Wojo learn more from?  (since he has already learned so much from K)

To my eye, it would be Kentucky, simply because I like to see a team run more.   

[WarriorFan]

It DOES say Kentucky, it DOES say Wisconsin, it IS Calipari, and it IS Bo.
Therefore I do not like.
It's an emotional game, therefore an emotional response.

In fact when I watch Kentucky, I wonder why these lazy buggers don't beat everyone by about 40 - before I remember that most are Freshmen who really have a lot to learn.
When I watch Wisconsin I do admire the fundamentals.  In fact, I had my kids counting pump fakes immediately after the catch the last time we watched a bucky game together. 

What we will learn is if Raw talent and no coaching can beat talent + skill + good coaching. 

[KenoshaWarrior]

It DOES say Kentucky, it DOES say Wisconsin, it IS Calipari, and it IS Bo.
Therefore I do not like.
It's an emotional game, therefore an emotional response.

In fact when I watch Kentucky, I wonder why these lazy buggers don't beat everyone by about 40 - before I remember that most are Freshmen who really have a lot to learn.
When I watch Wisconsin I do admire the fundamentals.  In fact, I had my kids counting pump fakes immediately after the catch the last time we watched a bucky game together. 

What we will learn is if Raw talent and no coaching can beat talent + skill + good coaching. 

What makes you think that Kentucky has no coaching?

[T-Bone]

In fact when I watch Kentucky, I wonder why these lazy buggers don't beat everyone by about 40 - before I remember that most are Freshmen who really have a lot to learn.

I have had the same thought.  It's an all-star team of talent, but also herding cats (no-pun).  

However, in that regard I think Calipari and staff is doing a really good job getting these guys that haven't had years to gel as a team to play as a team.  

[mattyv1908]

It DOES say Kentucky, it DOES say Wisconsin, it IS Calipari, and it IS Bo.
Therefore I do not like.
It's an emotional game, therefore an emotional response.

In fact when I watch Kentucky, I wonder why these lazy buggers don't beat everyone by about 40 - before I remember that most are Freshmen who really have a lot to learn.
When I watch Wisconsin I do admire the fundamentals.  In fact, I had my kids counting pump fakes immediately after the catch the last time we watched a bucky game together. 

What we will learn is if Raw talent and no coaching can beat talent + skill + good coaching. 

I think the last sentence is pretty off the mark.  Cal has to take top level freshmen who have always been the dominant player and get them to play in a system and a role.  Kentucky plays good defense, and he's taken 18-19 year old lottery picks and gotten them to play as a unit.  If that equals no coaching to you then I question if you've even watched Kentucky play.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Kentucky has a major flaw.  Not enough 3 point shooting.  In 1979 this team would be fine but not in the current 3 point era.  Also a little short on ball handling.  Kentucky starts 3 post players and 5 of their 9 man rotation are post players.  Before Poythress got hurt it was 6 of 10.  I'm sure UK expected 1 or 2 to go pro after last year but with WCS, Johnson and Poythress all returning the Wildcats have a glut of bigs.  Since they were all highly rated Calipari has to play them all, leading to roster imbalance.

Cal needed to recruit a SF or another guard.  The Harrison twins are pretty inconsistent and Booker is their best perimeter shooter and scorer but he doesn't play as much as I think he should.  Not sure why they don't play more three guard lineups.  The Harrison twins have size to play the 3 with Ulis and the twins would also pair well with Booker.  If one Harrison is off you can still play the other 3 guards together.

As for style of play I don't really have a preference.  I'd love Kentucky's style with a true SF that can handle the ball and shoot.  They can press and have more depth.  But the Badgers defend, rebound, pass and shoot well.  Fundamentally sound and a matchup nightmare with 5 all players on the court capable of knocking down 3's.

[WarriorFan]

What makes you think that Kentucky has no coaching?

He's a great recruiter with great players, but they just play pickup ball.  Fortunately, he rarely ends up in a close came that requires decision-making.  When it happens, Mike Dean could out-coach him.  

[mattyv1908]

He's a great recruiter with great players, but they just play pickup ball.  Fortunately, he rarely ends up in a close came that requires decision-making.  When it happens, Mike Dean could out-coach him.  

He's had three different programs reach final fours.  Only Kentucky is a historical powerhouse from a power conference.  UMass and Memphis certainly are not blue bloods.

[BCHoopster]

Best recruiter in college by far, offensively they stand around a great deal.  Cauley-Stein has no O, nor the other bigs except Towns, without Towns they have nothing down low except tip
ins off of misses.  I think that is how they score most of there baskets.  There 4 guards are average, only Booker scares me.  They are very beatable and I think the Badgers have as good as change as anybody has they do have some height inside as well.  Bigs will have a hard time guarding the Wisky bigs, slow and lumbering.  Stein is a great defender so they will put him on Frank,
Decker should see a lot of good looks.  Towns can not guard him.

[WarriorFan]

UMass I never understood, perhaps he was a good coach.
At Memphis he got the best players money could buy.
At Kentucky, he gets the best players on the promise of one season of fame followed by an NBA contract.
Its just a different philosophy, and not one I really buy into.  I would still rather see the 4 year athlete, or 3 years and absolutely no reason to stay behind, like Wade or (probably) Dekker, having gone through the development process of both growing up and learning the game.  

[GGGG]

I think the last sentence is pretty off the mark.  Cal has to take top level freshmen who have always been the dominant player and get them to play in a system and a role.  Kentucky plays good defense, and he's taken 18-19 year old lottery picks and gotten them to play as a unit.  If that equals no coaching to you then I question if you've even watched Kentucky play.

And I have no idea how any one can call them "lazy."

[GGGG]

He's a great recruiter with great players, but they just play pickup ball. 

No they don't.  They play a dribble drive motion offense. 

[BM1090]

No they don't.  They play a dribble drive motion offense. 

I was on the Cal can't coach train while he was at Memphis. Then, I started to actually watch his teams. They play good team defense and run a good system on offense. Does it help to have great players? Of course. But Cal is a great coach as well.

[brewcity77]

I was on the Cal can't coach train while he was at Memphis. Then, I started to actually watch his teams. They play good team defense and run a good system on offense. Does it help to have great players? Of course. But Cal is a great coach as well.

Exactly right. Cal is underrated as a coach because he has such amazing talent. The team defense he has those kids playing is incredible. His recruiting is his biggest strength, but not his only one.

[JWags85]

Best recruiter in college by far, offensively they stand around a great deal.  Cauley-Stein has no O, nor the other bigs except Towns, without Towns they have nothing down low except tip
ins off of misses.  I think that is how they score most of there baskets.  There 4 guards are average, only Booker scares me.  They are very beatable and I think the Badgers have as good as change as anybody has they do have some height inside as well.  Bigs will have a hard time guarding the Wisky bigs, slow and lumbering.  Stein is a great defender so they will put him on Frank,
Decker should see a lot of good looks.  Towns can not guard him.

Slow and lumbering?  I guess you missed when Kentucky's entire team chased Grant down the court on the last possession and stayed with him.  Kentucky has some of the most athletic 6'11-7 footers Ive ever seen.  WCS will guard Kaminsky, but there is no way Towns would be on Dekker.  Why would you have your center cover a 3/4?  Also, I don't see any way Towns doesn't go for 20+.  Who is going to stop him?  Kaminsky got eaten for lunch trying to guard Okafor earlier this year, Towns is even stronger.  Kaminsky is tall, but he doesn't play big, his length is only useful on help defense.  Hilarious to call an undefeated team who won their Sweet 16 game by 40 points "very beatable".

[BCHoopster]

Slow and lumbering?  I guess you missed when Kentucky's entire team chased Grant down the court on the last possession and stayed with him.  Kentucky has some of the most athletic 6'11-7 footers Ive ever seen.  WCS will guard Kaminsky, but there is no way Towns would be on Dekker.  Why would you have your center cover a 3/4?  Also, I don't see any way Towns doesn't go for 20+.  Who is going to stop him?  Kaminsky got eaten for lunch trying to guard Okafor earlier this year, Towns is even stronger.  Kaminsky is tall, but he doesn't play big, his length is only useful on help defense.  Hilarious to call an undefeated team who won their Sweet 16 game by 40 points "very beatable".

Notre Dame showed us that they are beatable, will it happen, I do not know.  Wisky lost by one last year, almost beat them.  Wisky is better this year, so is Kentucky but before the ND game I was thinking there was no chance.  After watching how ND attacked them, opened the court there is a chance, very might have been to strong.  Wisky plays like they did against AZ, they can
beat them by hitting threes.

[mu03eng]

I was on the Cal can't coach train while he was at Memphis. Then, I started to actually watch his teams. They play good team defense and run a good system on offense. Does it help to have great players? Of course. But Cal is a great coach as well.

Cal is a great coach and he's a solid recruiter that had some "help" over the years.  He clearly cheated at UMass and Memphis, but I don't think he is at Kentucky....he doesn't have to.  The only way he could be cheating is if it's keeping players eligible.

I agree, that he has always had great team defense and the offense is solid but not great.  I will say, he tends to like athleticism over talent but he really can turn athleticism into a great roster.

[GGGG]

Notre Dame showed us that they are beatable, will it happen, I do not know.  Wisky lost by one last year, almost beat them.  Wisky is better this year, so is Kentucky but before the ND game I was thinking there was no chance.  After watching how ND attacked them, opened the court there is a chance, very might have been to strong.  Wisky plays like they did against AZ, they can
beat them by hitting threes.

Anybody can beat anybody in college basketball by spreading the floor and hitting threes.  It just isn't that reliable a way to win consistently.

So *can* UW win?  Most definitely.  If they hit 66.7% (30 percentage points over their season average BTW) from 3 like they did against Zona, I would argue that there is a damn good chance it happens.  

[brewcity77]

Wisconsin faces a huge disadvantage Notre Dame didn't have, and that's a week of preparation. The Wildcats struggled in both of their second games this tournament (Cincy and ND). I also think the close call with the Irish will have Kentucky completely focused on this game.

Wisconsin will try to slow it down, but Kentucky is fine with the slow down. This is the slowest-paced team Cal has coached since Pomeroy started doing rankings. Wisconsin had a size advantage over UNC and Arizona, this week they'll be at a disadvantage. And I think Wisconsin relies too much on the three to beat UK.

If anyone beats Kentucky, it will be Duke if they are hot from three.

[mu03eng]

Notre Dame showed us that they are beatable, will it happen, I do not know.  Wisky lost by one last year, almost beat them.  Wisky is better this year, so is Kentucky but before the ND game I was thinking there was no chance.  After watching how ND attacked them, opened the court there is a chance, very might have been to strong.  Wisky plays like they did against AZ, they can
beat them by hitting threes.

ND played the game of their lives, Kentucky went 9-9 in the last 12 minutes and kept ND scoreless the last 3 minutes of the game.  I think that was the scare game for Kentucky.

Plus ND is 18th (regular season) in the country as a team in 3pt% at 0.392 while Wisconsin is tied for 109th at 0.357.  They shoot nearly 5 % points lower.  They aren't a scrum 3 team but they aren't going to space like ND did and NDs primary shooters have height, Wisconsin does not.

It will be a good game I'm sure, but Kentucky's interior defense will likely stifle Kaminsky and Hayes forcing Wisconsin to win from the arc.  Plus with Kentucky's post depth they can take some fouls in the interior, Wisconsin can't as they have no depth there.  Can they win, sure, but I don't think it likely.

[oldwarrior81]

fwiw, the top three UK players in minutes played are Cauley-Stein, a junior, and the Harrison twins, whom are sophomores.  Then followed by the freshman.

As a comparison, 3 of the 4 leaders in minutes played for Duke are freshman, Okafor, Jones, Winslow, along with the senior Cook.

[hairy worthen]

Wisconsin faces a huge disadvantage Notre Dame didn't have, and that's a week of preparation. The Wildcats struggled in both of their second games this tournament (Cincy and ND). I also think the close call with the Irish will have Kentucky completely focused on this game.

Wisconsin will try to slow it down, but Kentucky is fine with the slow down. This is the slowest-paced team Cal has coached since Pomeroy started doing rankings. Wisconsin had a size advantage over UNC and Arizona, this week they'll be at a disadvantage. And I think Wisconsin relies too much on the three to beat UK.

If anyone beats Kentucky, it will be Duke if they are hot from three.

Please be right, please be right, please be right

I can't handle WI even being in the championship game much less win it. Have to go to my happy place now just thinking about it.

[BCHoopster]

Cal is a great coach and he's a solid recruiter that had some "help" over the years.  He clearly cheated at UMass and Memphis, but I don't think he is at Kentucky....he doesn't have to.  The only way he could be cheating is if it's keeping players eligible.

I agree, that he has always had great team defense and the offense is solid but not great.  I will say, he tends to like athleticism over talent but he really can turn athleticism into a great roster.

He does cheat, a coach told me, they have a bagman, no different than Sam Gilbert at UCLA, Herb Kohl for Al and others.  The Diamond Stone situation is all about Bob Stone  getting
paid as a consultant or paid differently for futures on his son.  We all know all of Bob Stones teams are decked out in Under Armour, going to Maryland, Kevin Planks alma mater, questionable
to say the least.  Sam Bowie visited 2 schools, MU and Kentucky, Kentucky paid him better.

[jrb55]

ND played the game of their lives, Kentucky went 9-9 in the last 12 minutes and kept ND scoreless the last 3 minutes of the game.  I think that was the scare game for Kentucky.

Plus ND is 18th (regular season) in the country as a team in 3pt% at 0.392 while Wisconsin is tied for 109th at 0.357.  They shoot nearly 5 % points lower.  They aren't a scrum 3 team but they aren't going to space like ND did and NDs primary shooters have height, Wisconsin does not.

It will be a good game I'm sure, but Kentucky's interior defense will likely stifle Kaminsky and Hayes forcing Wisconsin to win from the arc.  Plus with Kentucky's post depth they can take some fouls in the interior, Wisconsin can't as they have no depth there.  Can they win, sure, but I don't think it likely.

Uhh... what????

[MUfan12]

Uhh... what????

Yeah, that's not accurate. The only short one of the bunch is Koenig.

[brewcity77]

He does cheat, a coach told me, they have a bagman, no different than Sam Gilbert at UCLA, Herb Kohl for Al and others.  The Diamond Stone situation is all about Bob Stone  getting
paid as a consultant or paid differently for futures on his son.  We all know all of Bob Stones teams are decked out in Under Armour, going to Maryland, Kevin Planks alma mater, questionable
to say the least.  Sam Bowie visited 2 schools, MU and Kentucky, Kentucky paid him better.

Is Young Legends all decked out in Under Armour? Yeah. But that doesn't make it illegal. Yes, the shoe companies will outfit teams to different degrees (as Freeport recently mentioned) but just because the playing field isn't level for all AAU teams doesn't mean it isn't above board, strictly speaking.

I also don't think Maryland broke any rules to get Stone to College Park. Are there handshake deals, money in waiting, other things going on behind the scenes? Maybe, possibly, even likely. But these companies have become very good at getting around the NCAA rules and enticing players legally. Pretty sure the other big schools, Kentucky and UNC with Nike, UCLA and Kansas with adidas, SMU with Under Armour, all handle things in similar fashion.

[BCHoopster]

Is Young Legends all decked out in Under Armour? Yeah. But that doesn't make it illegal. Yes, the shoe companies will outfit teams to different degrees (as Freeport recently mentioned) but just because the playing field isn't level for all AAU teams doesn't mean it isn't above board, strictly speaking.

I also don't think Maryland broke any rules to get Stone to College Park. Are there handshake deals, money in waiting, other things going on behind the scenes? Maybe, possibly, even likely. But these companies have become very good at getting around the NCAA rules and enticing players legally. Pretty sure the other big schools, Kentucky and UNC with Nike, UCLA and Kansas with adidas, SMU with Under Armour, all handle things in similar fashion.

Average consulting fee is $25K

[CTWarrior]

Wisconsin faces a huge disadvantage Notre Dame didn't have, and that's a week of preparation. The Wildcats struggled in both of their second games this tournament (Cincy and ND). I also think the close call with the Irish will have Kentucky completely focused on this game.

I think there is something to this.  I think the ease with which Kentucky dispatched WV may have taken away some of their edge.  I have no hard data to back this up, but it seems to me that teams that trounce their opponents so badly that the Thu/Fri game is not in doubt by halftime have a natural letdown for the Sat/Sun game.  (e.g. when everybody thought Kansas would win the title after thrashing us in the semi in 2003)

[mu03eng]

Yeah, that's not accurate. The only short one of the bunch is Koenig.

Let me rephrase, because you guys are correct in total.  Hayes and Kaminsky are Wisconsin's 2nd and 3rd best 3pt shooters and are obviously tall.  However, when they are on the perimeter, they aren't spacing the floor for a big man because the big man is often the one shooting.  ND was able to space both wings with "traditional" wings who are tall, Pat Connington and Steve Vasturia (both 6-5).  This allowed their big man to play the post and force Kentucky to play in space.  Wisconsin won't have that same luxury.

Just as a point of reference, top 4 shooters for each school and heights.
ND:
Pat Connington      0.436   6-5
VJ Beachum           0.424   6-8
Steve Vasturia       0.409   6-5
Demetrius Jackson  0.409   6-1

Wisconsin:
Koenig    0.415   6-3
Hayes     0.403   6-7
Kaminsky 0.395   7-0
Gasser    0.377   6-3

[GGGG]

To be fair, you are going to have to include Dekker in that list for Wisconsin.  He is as much a threat to score from the outside as anyone.  And he's 6'9".

[BM1090]

Maybe I'm biased. In fact, I probably am biased, but I think to beat Kentucky you need to have great guards surrounded by shooters. ND has better shooters than UW and Jackson/Grant >>>>>>> Koenig and Gasser. Wisconsin obviously has a much better frontcourt but that's Kentucky's strength as well. We'll see.

[MUfan12]

To be fair, you are going to have to include Dekker in that list for Wisconsin.  He is as much a threat to score from the outside as anyone.  And he's 6'9".

And Dukan off the bench.

[mu03eng]

To be fair, you are going to have to include Dekker in that list for Wisconsin.  He is as much a threat to score from the outside as anyone.  And he's 6'9".

I'm not disagreeing with you but I just grabbed the top 4 guys for both teams and in the regular season Dekker didn't attempt enough 3s to show up on the ESPN stat sheet for 3pt%.  Dukan was 0.325.  Not sure what the rest of the depth on ND is like statistically and height-wise.

It would also need to be broken down by minutes played.

Given all that, I'll concede the point that Madison has height on their shooters that could impact the Kentucky game.

[JWags85]

I'm not disagreeing with you but I just grabbed the top 4 guys for both teams and in the regular season Dekker didn't attempt enough 3s to show up on the ESPN stat sheet for 3pt%.  Dukan was 0.325.  Not sure what the rest of the depth on ND is like statistically and height-wise.

And the 3s he did take, he was 30%.  Thats what was infuriating as someone pulling for Zona in that game.  Its one thing if Kaminsky torched you outside, you had a 30% shooter from deep go 5 for 6 in the second half.  The one of the knocks on Dekker's game has always been that he's not a great shooter.

Wisconsin was trailing Zona at half and went 10-12 from 3 in the second half.  I can't see another half of shooting like that from a team that isn't as good as ND from deep.  Kaminsky got into foul trouble against Zona and should have fouled out.  He'll have his hands even more full on Saturday.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

ND played the game of their lives, Kentucky went 9-9 in the last 12 minutes and kept ND scoreless the last 3 minutes of the game.  I think that was the scare game for Kentucky.

Plus ND is 18th (regular season) in the country as a team in 3pt% at 0.392 while Wisconsin is tied for 109th at 0.357.  They shoot nearly 5 % points lower.  They aren't a scrum 3 team but they aren't going to space like ND did and NDs primary shooters have height, Wisconsin does not.

It will be a good game I'm sure, but Kentucky's interior defense will likely stifle Kaminsky and Hayes forcing Wisconsin to win from the arc.  Plus with Kentucky's post depth they can take some fouls in the interior, Wisconsin can't as they have no depth there.  Can they win, sure, but I don't think it likely.

They were discussing this on WFAN this afternoon.  Notre Dame was the best offensive team Kentucky has faced all season and Wisconsin has a different offense than Notre Dame that shouldn't be a problem for Kentucky.