Top 100 Recruits at MU - Erik WIlliams

[Norm]

I realize that there have been several posts on here regarding playing time for Erik Williams, so I thought I'd see how his playing time as a freshman has compared to the other Top 100 recruits who enrolled at Marquette in the last decade.

There seems to be a huge disparity in playing time for Williams compared to every other top 100 recruit save for Mbakwe.

Starting with Scott Merritt in 2000 through Maymon, Cadougan and Williams in 2009, here's how they stack up:

Scott Merritt, 29 out of 33 games played, 0 starts, 526 minutes, 18.1 avg. min., 173 points, 6.0 ppg, 3.6 rpg.

Travis Diener, 33 out of 33 games played, 3 starts, 781 minutes, 23.7 avg. min., 262 points, 7.9 ppg, 2.5 rpg.

Steve Novak, 33 out of 33 games played, 0 starts, 512 minutes, 15.5 avg. min., 220 points, 6.7 ppg, 2.2 rpg.

Dameon Mason, 31 out of 31 games played, 17 starts, 675 minutes, 21.8 avg. min., 279 points, 9.0 ppg, 4.5 rpg.

Dominic James, 31 out of 31 games played, 31 starts, 1006 minutes, 32.5 avg. min., 473 points, 15.3 ppg, 4.5 rpg.

Jerel McNeal, 31 out of 31 games played, 31 starts, 853 minutes, 27.5 avg. min., 343 points, 11.1 ppg, 4.5 rpg.

Wes Matthews, 23 out of 31 games played, 13 starts, 573 minutes, 24.9 avg. min., 207 points, 9.0 ppg, 4.0 rpg.

Trevor Mbakwe, 11 out of 35 games played, 0 starts, 101 minutes, 9.2 avg. min., 17 points, 1.5 ppg, 2.1 rpg.

Jeronne Maymon, 9 out of 9 games played, 0 starts, 147 minutes, 16.3 avg. min., 36 points, 4.0 ppg, 4.2 rpg.

Erik Williams, 6 out of 13 games played, 0 starts, 59 minutes, 9.8 avg. min., 21 points, 3.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg.

Junior Cadougan - Medical Red Shirt.

Mbakwe's numbers are skewed because of his injury that kept him out most of the year, and Matthew's hurt his left foot that cost him the games that he missed.

But, except for injuries, all of the previous top 100 recruits played in every game of their freshman year, with Novak averaging the least amount fo time at 15.5 mpg.

Williams has played less than half the team's games thus far, with DNP's coming against Maryland-Eastern Shore, Xavier, Michigan, Florida State, NC State, Wisconsin, West Virginia and Villanova. For comparison, Frozena has gotten into as many games as Williams, 6 each.

Can any of you who have seen Williams play help explain these numbers? Is he just horrible when he is on the court? He has not played in a single game I have watched this year (Xavier, Mich, FSU, NC State, UW, WVU and Villanova) so I have nothing to base any opinion on.

Is he just a bust thus far (granted he is half way through his freshman year and has lots of time to play to potential)? Is he in the doghouse? What explains his lack of playing time, especially with Buzz only playing 7 players in most games?

[Hards Alumni]

He is a kid who has loads of potential, but needs to learn the game.

Recall that we have a head coach who is different from the coaches of previous top 100 recruits (except for the Maymon case).

Erik has played alright.  The stats you list are somewhat... incomplete.  They don't account for defense or fouls... both of which he has had problems with.

Additionally, I think early in the season Erik had a bit of a work ethic problem... though, I could be mistaken.

[Norm]

Hards_Alumni, thanks for the feed back. Here's some info on fouls:

Scott Merritt - 62 fouls, 0.118 fouls per minute, 2.138 fouls per game.
Travis Diener - 63 fouls, 0.081 fpm, 1.909 fpg.
Steve Novak - 54 fouls, 0.105 fpm, 1.636 fpg.
Dameon Mason - 58 fouls, 0.086 fpm, 1.871 fpg.
Dominic James - 74 fouls, 0.074 fpm, 2.387 fpg.
Jerel McNeal - 77 fouls, 0.090 fpm, 2.484 fpg.
Wes Matthews - 51 fouls, 0.089 fpm, 2.217 fpg.
Trevor Mbawke - 18 fouls, 0.178 fpm, 1.636 fpg.
Jeronne Maymon - 24 fouls, 0.163 fpm, 2.667 fpg.
Erik Williams - 12 fouls, 0.203 fpm, 2.000 fpg.

So, Williams does have the highest fouls per minute rate here, so maybe that's a reason why he sits so much.

[AlumKCof93]

Maybe he just isn't ready.  Buzz will put him in when he is.  It's the first half of his freshman year.  Slow down.  Any talk of him being a bust b/c he hasn't played much so far this year is ridiculous.

[Hards Alumni]

Hards_Alumni, thanks for the feed back. Here's some info on fouls:

Scott Merritt - 62 fouls, 0.118 fouls per minute, 2.138 fouls per game.
Travis Diener - 63 fouls, 0.081 fpm, 1.909 fpg.
Steve Novak - 54 fouls, 0.105 fpm, 1.636 fpg.
Dameon Mason - 58 fouls, 0.086 fpm, 1.871 fpg.
Dominic James - 74 fouls, 0.074 fpm, 2.387 fpg.
Jerel McNeal - 77 fouls, 0.090 fpm, 2.484 fpg.
Wes Matthews - 51 fouls, 0.089 fpm, 2.217 fpg.
Trevor Mbawke - 18 fouls, 0.178 fpm, 1.636 fpg.
Jeronne Maymon - 24 fouls, 0.163 fpm, 2.667 fpg.
Erik Williams - 12 fouls, 0.203 fpm, 2.000 fpg.

So, Williams does have the highest fouls per minute rate here, so maybe that's a reason why he sits so much.

Part of the problem is, he is a step slow on defense and is forced to foul to stop the easy bucket.  Does he have the ability to grow?  Absolutely.

[MR.HAYWARD]

diener and novak who were both significantly more highly rated and were lights out shooters.  apart form those two the other players you mentioned were all recruited to NIT caliber teams.  Merritt came onto a team with virtually zero talent, MAson, a guard, which makes a huge difference came to a depleeted team and played for an NIt team.  the 3 amigos came to ateam that absolutely stunk and was coming off of 2 staright NIt years in year 5 and 6 of Creans tenure. 

gurads are typically more ready to play than forwards and none of the guys you mnetion have a probabable top 5 all time scorer in front of them or had a guy like Butler there too. 

your list of players while all good players virtually started by default. 

[mosarsour]

Part of the problem is, he is a step slow on defense and is forced to foul to stop the easy bucket.  Does he have the ability to grow?  Absolutely.

Offensively...I believe he will really be a force over the next 3 years or so. But the kid looks lost on the defensive end and that's the reason for his lack of PT.

[HoopsMalone]

Though Novak may still have been in the top 100, it is interesting that he was only a 3 star on rivals:  http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/player-Steve-Novak-436



According to rivals, Hayward was a 4-star and top 100:  http://rivals.yahoo.com/marquette/basketball/recruiting/player-Lazar-Hayward-39578



According to ESPN, Lazar's frosh stats are:
SEASON    TEAM  MIN PTS REB AST
2006-2007 MARQ 16.3 6.6  3.6  .3  

[bilsu]

Hards_Alumni, thanks for the feed back. Here's some info on fouls:

Scott Merritt - 62 fouls, 0.118 fouls per minute, 2.138 fouls per game.
Travis Diener - 63 fouls, 0.081 fpm, 1.909 fpg.
Steve Novak - 54 fouls, 0.105 fpm, 1.636 fpg.
Dameon Mason - 58 fouls, 0.086 fpm, 1.871 fpg.
Dominic James - 74 fouls, 0.074 fpm, 2.387 fpg.
Jerel McNeal - 77 fouls, 0.090 fpm, 2.484 fpg.
Wes Matthews - 51 fouls, 0.089 fpm, 2.217 fpg.
Trevor Mbawke - 18 fouls, 0.178 fpm, 1.636 fpg.
Jeronne Maymon - 24 fouls, 0.163 fpm, 2.667 fpg.
Erik Williams - 12 fouls, 0.203 fpm, 2.000 fpg.

So, Williams does have the highest fouls per minute rate here, so maybe that's a reason why he sits so much.

I think Eric's numbers are somewhat skewed becasue Buzz tends to take him out of the game when he makes a mistake like fouling.

[bilsu]

Part of the problem is, he is a step slow on defense and is forced to foul to stop the easy bucket.  Does he have the ability to grow?  Absolutely.

I do not think he is a step slow. I think he tries to play defense using his athleticism instead of his brain. He moves quickly without thinking, which results in him getting out of position.

[bma725]

While not a bad comparison, part of the problem with looking at playing time is you have to understand who/what was around the previous players when they came in compared to what E-Will has around him.

Williams best is really only capable of playing the 3 and 4, he's too skinny and doesn't understand defense enough to play the 5.  That means he's got to compete with Butler and Hayward, or if MU decides to go small, with DJO/Buycks.  Right now he's not better than any of those guys, which means he's going to sit.

When you look at the past Top 100 guys, they had ample playing time available right away.  The Amigos came to a team with only one other guard on the roster, Joe Chapman.  Merritt came to a team with centers that weren't even mid-major quality.  Mason was coming to a team that had an open perimeter spot.  Really only Diener came to a team with better players ahead of him at both his positions, and Crean changed the offense to be able to get him PT.

Can any of you who have seen Williams play help explain these numbers? Is he just horrible when he is on the court? He has not played in a single game I have watched this year (Xavier, Mich, FSU, NC State, UW, WVU and Villanova) so I have nothing to base any opinion on.

Is he just a bust thus far (granted he is half way through his freshman year and has lots of time to play to potential)? Is he in the doghouse? What explains his lack of playing time, especially with Buzz only playing 7 players in most games?

He's not ready.  Erik is a very talented kid, but came from a system that was designed to win games in HS, not get kids ready for college ball.  Even his HS coach said that he wasn't going to be ready for major playing time right away because he hadn't learned those things yet.  He played in a defense that had him as the shot blocking rover, meaning he never really got a chance to learn fundamental post defense or fundamental wing defense...hence he's way behind.

Offensively, he's ready to play.  He's got nice touch and has shown a nice handle, as well as an ability to crash the offensive boards.  But defensively, he's just lost.  For a team that already struggles defensively, that's a problem.  He gets into bad positions on the court, gets into bad physical positions, and doesn't seem to understand where to go or what to do...even when given specific instructions by the other players on the court.

I think it's way early to call him a bust.  Like Buzz said about Otule, Williams will be the kid that makes the greatest leap from freshman to sophomore year.  Remember, he essentially missed a year of playing/practice time with his foot injury and even after that didn't do as much playing as most kids his age.  He's trying to learn a completely new way of playing defense, which is never easy to do, especially as a team devotes practice time to game planning when the season starts.

[77ncaachamps]

This team needs consistent core of players who will make the game a competitive one.

Defensively, E-Will can block shots and grab rebounds. But even in the minutes he played, he looked lost on where to be.

Those mental lapses help to negate the small margin of error.

So, I hope he plays only when we most need him and when Buzz deems him ready.

[Marquette84]

diener and novak who were both significantly more highly rated and were lights out shooters.  apart form those two the other players you mentioned were all recruited to NIT caliber teams.  Merritt came onto a team with virtually zero talent, MAson, a guard, which makes a huge difference came to a depleeted team and played for an NIt team.  the 3 amigos came to ateam that absolutely stunk and was coming off of 2 staright NIt years in year 5 and 6 of Creans tenure. 

gurads are typically more ready to play than forwards and none of the guys you mnetion have a probabable top 5 all time scorer in front of them or had a guy like Butler there too. 
. 

Interesting.  You claim previous top 100 players only got significant minutes because they joined "NIT caliber" teams.

And you claim poor Erik Williams simply had the misfortune to join the team at a time when we're so deep in talent that he is the least-utilized top-100 player recruited to MU in over decade--probably since Lloyd Moore. 

Kind of kills the argument that "the cupboard is bare," don't you think? 

[NersEllenson]

Interesting.  You claim previous top 100 players only got significant minutes because they joined "NIT caliber" teams.

And you claim poor Erik Williams simply had the misfortune to join the team at a time when we're so deep in talent that he is the least-utilized top-100 player recruited to MU in over decade--probably since Lloyd Moore. 

Kind of kills the argument that "the cupboard is bare," don't you think? 

  I think the cupboard was pretty bare for this season.  But, as BMA wrote above..if you look at E_Wills natural or best position, he's got Jimmy Butler and Lazar ahead of him.  That being said, we are deep in talent at his position, largely due to Buzz being able to recruit Jimmy Butler, DJO, and Buycks.

[Norm]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

It sounds like Williams is very behind defensively. With that problem keeping him on the bench against all the decent teams that MU has played so far this year, combined with overcoming a past foot injury, should Marquette have red-shirted Williams this year?

If he is not good enough this year to relieve Butler and/or Hayward for at least 5 minutes against BE teams, couldn't we have red-shirted him to teach him the fundamentals that he lacks, giving him a greater chance to compete on the court for 4 years?

[MarquetteDano]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

It sounds like Williams is very behind defensively. With that problem keeping him on the bench against all the decent teams that MU has played so far this year, combined with overcoming a past foot injury, should Marquette have red-shirted Williams this year?

If he is not good enough this year to relieve Butler and/or Hayward for at least 5 minutes against BE teams, couldn't we have red-shirted him to teach him the fundamentals that he lacks, giving him a greater chance to compete on the court for 4 years?

Actually, it now looks like a really good move that we did NOT red-shirt him.  We are an injury away from him getting 20 mpg.

[TJ]

Actually, it now looks like a really good move that we did NOT red-shirt him.  We are an injury away from him getting 20 mpg.

You can pull a redshirt at any time.  He's not any extra prepared to step in for an injury because he's learned how to put on his uniform and warm up on the Al McGuire Court.

[TJ]

  I think the cupboard was pretty bare for this season.  But, as BMA wrote above..if you look at E_Wills natural or best position, he's got Jimmy Butler and Lazar ahead of him.  That being said, we are deep in talent at his position, largely due to Buzz being able to recruit Jimmy Butler, DJO, and Buycks.

The argument isn't whether Williams should be starting, it's whether he should be playing at all.  When you have a 7 man rotation (including Fulce!), there's no such thing as "deep in talent at his position."  As I haven't even seen him play more than 2 minutes this year, I have no idea whether he should play or not, but don't pretend there's just no minutes to spare.  The point isn't that Fulce or Williams should play ahead of Lazar or Jimmy, it's that they should play a little more so that Lazar and Jimmy don't have to play 38 or 39 minutes a game the rest of the way.

Honestly I think Fulce should be out there more to accomplish the goal of getting Lazar and Jimmy some rest during games.  He hustles, he gets rebounds, he defends alright, albeit making mistakes from time to time (but which of our defenders doesn't?).

[77ncaachamps]

My suspicion is if this season appears to be tanking, Buzz will give him the opportunity to play.

But since the conference season has just started, he'll keep to the more veteran crew.

[Lennys Tap]

Interesting.  You claim previous top 100 players only got significant minutes because they joined "NIT caliber" teams.

And you claim poor Erik Williams simply had the misfortune to join the team at a time when we're so deep in talent that he is the least-utilized top-100 player recruited to MU in over decade--probably since Lloyd Moore. 

Kind of kills the argument that "the cupboard is bare," don't you think? 

This year's team has 2 NCAA tourney caliber players - Hayward and Butler. Unfortunately they play the same position as Erik W.

[TJ]

Hayward and Butler. Unfortunately they play the same position as Erik W.

So Hayward and Butler split time at the 3, then there's 4 guards fighting for minutes at the 1 and 2, and then we have 2 empty spots on the floor?

"My team's on the floor."

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The argument isn't whether Williams should be starting, it's whether he should be playing at all.  When you have a 7 man rotation (including Fulce!), there's no such thing as "deep in talent at his position."  As I haven't even seen him play more than 2 minutes this year, I have no idea whether he should play or not, but don't pretend there's just no minutes to spare.  The point isn't that Fulce or Williams should play ahead of Lazar or Jimmy, it's that they should play a little more so that Lazar and Jimmy don't have to play 38 or 39 minutes a game the rest of the way.

Honestly I think Fulce should be out there more to accomplish the goal of getting Lazar and Jimmy some rest during games.  He hustles, he gets rebounds, he defends alright, albeit making mistakes from time to time (but which of our defenders doesn't?).

this.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

As I recall, there were games early in Novak's freshman year where he wasn't getting much playing time. In fact, I think it was the game at DePaul where he really broke out with something like 16 points. Prior to that, he wasn't doing much of anything...just going by memory, though.

Give Williams time, for chrissakes!!! Buzz has said several times how much he likes him. He'll come around!

[ATWizJr]

this.

Forgive my naivete but what does "this." mean as a post?

Thanks.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Just another lame way to say "+1" or "I agree" or "co-sign".

Look, Williams still might end up to be a good/great player. But, I am surprised that he hasn't been able to crack the 7 man rotation.

I mean really, who is the back-up PF right now? I know Fulce is splitting time at the 5 and 4, but even he's not getting that many minutes.

Lazar - Fulce
Butler - DJO?
Buycks - DJO
Cubby - ?
Acker  - ?