2020-21 NFL Season

[forgetful]

Yeah I thought the whole Romo saying "he'll have to win eight now" was absurd.  A lot of great quarterbacks have never returned to that pinnacle (Favre, Rodgers, Brees).  So the idea that Mahomes is destined to make regular appearances a la Brady is dumb.

I hate that people act like winning the Super Bowl, suddenly makes you the GOAT.

Marv Fleming has more super bowl victories than any other TE, does that make him the TE GOAT?
How bout Mike Wilson as a WR?

We seem to only do that for QBs, despite the fact that typically, the team that dominates the trenches wins. A QB is really only as good as his OL. Sure, some are genuinely more talented than others, but give an average NFL QB an elite OL, and they suddenly look MVP caliber.

[StillAWarrior]

Yeah I thought the whole Romo saying "he'll have to win eight now" was absurd.  A lot of great quarterbacks have never returned to that pinnacle (Favre, Rodgers, Brees).  So the idea that Mahomes is destined to make regular appearances a la Brady is dumb.

He also said something along the lines of, "If Mahomes and Brady match up again next year and Mahomes wins, he'll be in the conversation."  No. No, he won't. It will be an amazing accomplishment, but three Super Bowls in a row with two wins doesn't put you in the GOAT conversation. It means that you've got an historic start to what looks to be a stellar career (and perhaps the best three-year stretch ever for a QB). But it takes longevity and sustained high-level play to be in the GOAT conversation. Admittedly, SB victories help an awful lot too.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I hate that people act like winning the Super Bowl, suddenly makes you the GOAT.

Marv Fleming has more super bowl victories than any other TE, does that make him the TE GOAT?
How bout Mike Wilson as a WR?

We seem to only do that for QBs, despite the fact that typically, the team that dominates the trenches wins. A QB is really only as good as his OL. Sure, some are genuinely more talented than others, but give an average NFL QB an elite OL, and they suddenly look MVP caliber.

I don't agree with you that a "QB is only as good as his OL" and that if you give an "average QB an elite OK, and they suddenly look MVP caliber."

Sure if you give them an awful line, they will look ineffective like Mahomes did last night.  But the QB is the most important position in the game.  And its pretty obvious when one is bad and the other is good.

Look at Tampa.  They went 7-9 in 2019 with Winston at QB.  They make one change on the OL (Wirfs), not counting Cappa's playoff injury, and they win the Super Bowl.  Do you think the OL was significantly better this year?  Doubtful.  It was the quarterback.

[shoothoops]

There’s a certain type of person that seemingly can’t rest until they narrow something down to one thing, even if it can’t be done. Others perhaps just get caught up in the moment.

There’s no such thing as goat, any player, any team,
in any sport. All players/teams, cannot and do not play in all eras under the same circumstances. So it is endless apples to oranges comparison.

Training, coaching, technology, medical, nutrition, playing surface, you could go on and on all change and evolve over time.

The best anyone can say is that team or player is the best or among the best in her or his era. And that’s plenty, it’s fine.

[shoothoops]

Some of the Tampa coaching staff:

[HutchwasClutch]

It’s all about the defense. If your defense is elite, your chances of winning it all are very good.  You just need a competent quarterback who can just make enough plays and avoid game turning mistakes.  Peyton Manning’s title with Denver.  Trent Dilfer with Baltimore. The ‘85 Bears.  The Bucs and Brady.  It’s been repeated often.   

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I don't think the refs had much impact at all.  KC wasn't going to score enough regardless.

That may be true. But the game has an entirely different complexion if Brady isn't gifted those two touchdowns via the refs and it is 7-6 at halftime, and then KC comes out a takes the lead 9-7 after their first 2nd half drive. Bucs defense might still have been too good to lose, I think it is a different ball game.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

That may be true. But the game has an entirely different complexion if Brady isn't gifted those two touchdowns via the refs and it is 7-6 at halftime, and then KC comes out a takes the lead 9-7 after their first 2nd half drive. Bucs defense might still have been too good to lose, I think it is a different ball game.

I don't think they were gifted two.  But KC has as much to blame for the TD before half than anything. They were getting the ball to start the 2nd have.  Going in at 14-6 would have been just fine.  Bad calls happen, but KC put them in a place to let them happen.

[shoothoops]

It’s all about the defense. If your defense is elite, your chances of winning it all are very good.  You just need a competent quarterback who can just make enough plays and avoid game turning mistakes.  Peyton Manning’s title with Denver.  Trent Dilfer with Baltimore. The ‘85 Bears.  The Bucs and Brady.  It’s been repeated often.   

You just need good enough balance to win. Balance can be achieved in a variety of ways, equally in all phases, dominant in one area, good enough in others. There have been football teams that have won with better offenses than defenses. Just as in baseball, pitching doesn’t always win championships.

In the NFL, winning the line of scrimmage on one or even better, both, sides is very helpful to being successful. But even that doesn’t guarantee it.

Last night, Tampa was better with both D line and O line, both sides pf t he ball. And they were better on special teams too.

It also didn’t help KC that while getting pressure often with front four, at times a recently injured Mahomes wasn’t able to go lore North South and or get outside laterally as well as he he has done before. Tampa had protection on offense, and played high percentage ball.

There are a variety of ways to win and be successful. The key is to not be very deficient in one or
more areas.

[forgetful]

I don't agree with you that a "QB is only as good as his OL" and that if you give an "average QB an elite OK, and they suddenly look MVP caliber."

Sure if you give them an awful line, they will look ineffective like Mahomes did last night.  But the QB is the most important position in the game.  And its pretty obvious when one is bad and the other is good.

Look at Tampa.  They went 7-9 in 2019 with Winston at QB.  They make one change on the OL (Wirfs), not counting Cappa's playoff injury, and they win the Super Bowl.  Do you think the OL was significantly better this year?  Doubtful.  It was the quarterback.

Tampa also went from the 29th best defense (2019-20), to arguably the best defense in the league.

The OL can improve without major changes. Growth in players is important.

Winston was heavily pressured all season last year, had 49 sacks.

Brady had all day, only 21 sacks. The OL was much improved.

And even then, Winston is by no means an "average QB," he went from TB to a backup. Even then, with TB's receivers, and behind an average-poor OL, he led the league in Passing yards last year. He had a ton of interceptions, often because the had to gamble to get back in games.

But...

There’s a certain type of person that seemingly can’t rest until they narrow something down to one thing, even if it can’t be done. Others perhaps just get caught up in the moment.

There’s no such thing as goat, any player, any team,
in any sport. All players/teams, cannot and do not play in all eras under the same circumstances. So it is endless apples to oranges comparison.

Training, coaching, technology, medical, nutrition, playing surface, you could go on and on all change and evolve over time.

The best anyone can say is that team or player is the best or among the best in her or his era. And that’s plenty, it’s fine.

This is the answer. I hate the fact that people insist on naming someone a GOAT, especially when they base it strictly off winning team championships.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

This is the answer. I hate the fact that people insist on naming someone a GOAT, especially when they base it strictly off winning team championships.

Oh I agree with you and shoot here.  This is all manufactured sports debate nonsense. 

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I can't recall a SB where the refs had a more outsized effect on the results. They absolutely gifted Brady 14 point in the 1st half. Bucs might still have won because of their defense and KC's makeshift line, but they might as well have handed Brady the trophy.

First broad ref in history.  Lots of biased calls in favor of Brady.  Coincidence?  I think not.

(Sarcasm, for the humorless.)

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I was just looking at how insane Charles Woodson's stats were.  In his seven seasons with the Packers, he had TEN defensive returns for TDs.  (And remember in his last year he only played in seven games due to injury.)  In the last seven seasons, they Packers as a team have only had 11.

The second most important FA signing behind Reggie.

[cheebs09]

As a Packer fan, I couldn’t help but think if we capitalized on the interceptions against Brady, we’d have a Super Bowl. But at the same time, I don’t know that the Packers defense could have put that much pressure on Mahomes. That was the game changer.

[StillAWarrior]

As a Packer fan, I couldn’t help but think if we capitalized on the interceptions against Brady, we’d have a Super Bowl. But at the same time, I don’t know that the Packers defense could have put that much pressure on Mahomes. That was the game changer.

As a Brown's fan, I can't help but think that if the refs would have called what I think was an obvious targeting penalty, KC wouldn't have even been in the Super Bowl this year (it would have probably been the Bills).

[StillAWarrior]

A few more thoughts on Mahomes:

• I love how he handled himself after the game last night. He's a class act and a good leader. I commented late in the game that I was interested to see how he would respond. He didn't disappoint. Made no excuses, admitted he didn't play as well has he'd like and gave TB all the credit. I really do think he's going to have an exceptional career and I'm looking forward to watching hit happen.
• I really wish he would have connected for the TD on that play in the 4th when he was falling down when he threw it. Wow. I don't know anyone else who could have made that throw. It would have been a great TD to have on his highlight real.
• I wonder if he's going to ask his Mom to stop tweeting.

[MUBurrow]

After watching that game, I can't help but think that the Britt Reid situation may have had a quietly large impact on the outcome of the game. With Fischer out, I still thought the Chiefs were going to win big, and it was mostly because I thought the Chiefs had the personnel and coaching staff to adjust.  I thought Hill would have mvp numbers running 5 yard drag routes with a ton of yac, the screen game would be strong, Kelce would have a big hitter up the seam once the safeties had to drop down.  If the Chiefs got out in front, I thought that second half Brady from the GB game would show up, toss a couple to the wrong team, and KC would run away with it.

Instead all KC had was meaningless pre-snap motion and bad rolling pockets that got blown up when the roll side tackle whiffed.  We all knew going in that it would be TB's pass rush vs KC's depleted line, and I thought that with two weeks to prepare and the most athletic skill position players in the league, Reid and Bienememy would draw up something a lot better than that.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I don't think they were gifted two.  But KC has as much to blame for the TD before half than anything. They were getting the ball to start the 2nd have.  Going in at 14-6 would have been just fine.  Bad calls happen, but KC put them in a place to let them happen.

Agree, it was monumentally stupid for Reid to call those timeouts are dare TB to score. The flag on the deep ball was ridiculous, though, the receiver did his best soccer flop.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't think the refs had much impact at all.  KC wasn't going to score enough regardless.

Agree. Tampa Bay whipped ‘em at the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. 31-9 could have been 38-9 but for a goal line stand. Add the fact that KC was trying to score the entire game and TB did little but run up the middle to eat clock for a quarter. It was a rout that could have been worse.

[Billy Hoyle]

Agree. Tampa Bay whipped ‘em at the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. 31-9 could have been 38-9 but for a goal line stand. Add the fact that KC was trying to score the entire game and TB did little but run up the middle to eat clock for a quarter. It was a rout that could have been worse.

Bienemy got exposed. He didn't make any adjustments to try and get Hill open, the only thing they had was Kelce. The bloom is off.

[Jockey]

I hate that people act like winning the Super Bowl, suddenly makes you the GOAT.

Marv Fleming has more super bowl victories than any other TE, does that make him the TE GOAT?
How bout Mike Wilson as a WR?

We seem to only do that for QBs, despite the fact that typically, the team that dominates the trenches wins. A QB is really only as good as his OL. Sure, some are genuinely more talented than others, but give an average NFL QB an elite OL, and they suddenly look MVP caliber.

Robert Horry was a greater player than MJ.

[Jockey]

First broad ref in history.  Lots of biased calls in favor of Brady.  Coincidence?  I think not.

(Sarcasm, for the humorless.)

You should be destroyed for this. A good portion of my posts are sarcasm and I get crap all the time. Some broad needs to slap you down (unless of course, that's your thing).

[hairy worthen]

Bienemy got exposed. He didn't make any adjustments to try and get Hill open, the only thing they had was Kelce. The bloom is off.

Bucs were playing two deep safeties yet Chiefs refused to run the ball much in the first half. The pass rush was obviously getting to Mahomes, why not slow the pass rush down with the run and get the ball out quick on short routes.  No, they played right into to Bucs hands.

[tower912]

First broad ref in history.  Lots of biased calls in favor of Brady.  Coincidence?  I think not.

(Sarcasm, for the humorless.)

All of the other refs have been narrow?

[MU82]

Super Bowl victories DO matter, especially for QBs. They are the leaders of their teams and the pace-setters of their offenses. Even back in Bob Griese's day -- when he threw 11 and 7 passes as the Dolphins went back-to-back in SB7 and SB8 -- he called the team's plays and made the offense "work." (Though it's notable that he wasn't in the MVP conversation either year, nor should he have been.)

So I think the fact that Brady has won 7 and Montana has won 4 are extremely meaningful in determining in where they rank among QBs all-time.

But SB wins would be less meaningful if they didn't also have great regular-season stats and great playoff performances that helped their teams get to Super Bowls. Bradshaw also won 4, and you rarely him mentioned even in the top 10 all-time. He's an obvious HoFer, but he didn't have the numbers to put him in the same conversation as the likes of Rodgers or Marino.

That Brady went to an entirely different system AT AGE 43, not to mention to a franchise that had mostly been a laughingstock and, in Year 1, led them to the championship ... that's pretty incredible. Talk about the defense and other factors all you want, but Brady absolutely set the tone and the expectations for the Bucs. Heck with winning a title ... TB couldn't have even imagined one without Brady. He made it all possible -- period.

Montana actually played very well KC after he was all but run out of San Fran to make room for Steve Young, just as Favre played superbly for the Vikings. But neither could get their new team to the promised land. Obviously wasn't all their fault (though lots was Favre's fault IMHO), but results are results.

Favre, Rodgers, Marino, Elway, Brees, Fouts, Kelly, Unitas and so many other stars were great great great QBs, obviously. But frankly, I don't see anybody particularly close to Brady. Accomplishments matter. Results matter. Sure, he benefited from those around him ... but lots of fine QBs had lots of fine talent around them and didn't win 2 SBs, let alone effen SEVEN.

As for Mahomes, he is a blast to watch and he's supremely talented. As others have noted, his postgame was class personified. He very well could win more titles -- or could win zero more. I mean, at the time Favre and Rodgers were winning the Super Bowl, is there anybody here who thought neither would ever win another?

It's HARD to win, no matter how good you are or the team around you is -- another reason Brady is by far the GOAT.

I agree with those who thought Romo said a lot of dopey things ... and I really think Romo is a good analyst. He had a lot of time to fill last night!