Is Going To College Worth It?

[forgetful]

This is certainly the case with the Ivies.  Look at the number of successful people that bailed out of Harvard early without a degree so they could get started ... Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg and Ken Griffin (Citadel).  Collectively these three are worth about $175 billion!

They were destine to be successful no matter what.  This is the case with many Ivy students.  Ivies don't have exceptional classes, they take exceptional students that are going to "make it" no matter what.

You make post after post demonstrating how little you know about this thing called the world.  These people (Mark Zuckerberg) especially would be nowhere if it wasn't for the connections and opportunities afforded them by being at an Ivy. 

They have both exceptional classes that are matched by exceptional professors and peers, these open up opportunities that are not remotely possible anywhere else. 

I have a friend at Harvard right now who is bright, but not exceptional.  They had an idea though and happened to get a chance to talk to George Church, he liked the idea and is going to set up a meeting for them with Elon Musk...that never happens if you are not at Harvard. 

Their idea goes nowhere if they are somewhere else, now even if the idea doesn't move forward they are tied to two of the most influential people on the planet who will likely jumpstart their career. 

[JWags85]

You make post after post demonstrating how little you know about this thing called the world.  These people (Mark Zuckerberg) especially would be nowhere if it wasn't for the connections and opportunities afforded them by being at an Ivy. 

Ken Griffin also graduated from Harvard, so yea....

[Tugg Speedman]

You make post after post demonstrating how little you know about this thing called the world.  These people (Mark Zuckerberg) especially would be nowhere if it wasn't for the connections and opportunities afforded them by being at an Ivy. 

Typical left-wing thinking that no one that is uber-successful has extraordinary skills or talent.  No Zuckerberg was just another smuck that got lucky meeting some people at Harvard that launched him into the mega-success that he is.

Restated, if Zuckerberg went to Amherst or another such school (MU?), he would just be an unknown programmer.

Factr is Zuckerberg would be what he is today not matter where he went to school.  Remember he left Harvard early he was so sure Facebook would be a success.  He did not need the crutch of a Harvard degree to make it.  He was going to be a mega-star no matter what.

[MU82]

Typical left-wing thinking that no one that is uber-successful has extraordinary skills or talent.  No Zuckerberg was just another smuck that got lucky meeting some people at Harvard that launched him into the mega-success that he is.

Restated, if Zuckerberg went to Amherst or another such school (MU?), he would just be an unknown programmer.

Factr is Zuckerberg would be what he is today not matter where he went to school.  Remember he left Harvard early he was so sure Facebook would be a success.  He did not need the crutch of a Harvard degree to make it.  He was going to be a mega-star no matter what.

Although the thing you present as a fact actually is only your opinion -- a fact can be proven with evidence, and there is no way to prove the thesis you present here -- I happen to agree with what you say.

All kinds of successful people have made it without benefit of a college degree. I happen to believe that where one goes to school is, in general, overrated. Again, that is my opinion and I am not presenting it as a fact.

[Tugg Speedman]

Although the thing you present as a fact actually is only your opinion -- a fact can be proven with evidence, and there is no way to prove the thesis you present here -- I happen to agree with what you say.

All kinds of successful people have made it without benefit of a college degree. I happen to believe that where one goes to school is, in general, overrated. Again, that is my opinion and I am not presenting it as a fact.

This I agree with.  As I said before, Harvard classes classes are no different that MU's classes.  What is different is Harvard gets the most talented kids in the world that are destine to be successful no matter what.  They don't train futures successes, they select future successes to attend.

[forgetful]

Typical left-wing thinking that no one that is uber-successful has extraordinary skills or talent.  No Zuckerberg was just another smuck that got lucky meeting some people at Harvard that launched him into the mega-success that he is.

Restated, if Zuckerberg went to Amherst or another such school (MU?), he would just be an unknown programmer.

Factr is Zuckerberg would be what he is today not matter where he went to school.  Remember he left Harvard early he was so sure Facebook would be a success.  He did not need the crutch of a Harvard degree to make it.  He was going to be a mega-star no matter what.

Congrats on making the discussion political.  Left/Right has nothing to do with this discussion.  Also, never said he didn't have skills or talent.  You interject these meaningless concepts in an attempt to attack the individual, since you have no rational base for your statements, and made false statements (one of your people did graduate from Harvard).

What you fail to realize and refuse to acknowledge, is that there are thousands/millions who are extraordinarily skilled and talented.  They are not a Zuckerberg because of a lack of opportunity and a lack of connections.  Being uber successful requires both skill and opportunity/connections, where the latter is far more likely to lead to long term success.

You have zero evidence to support your assertion that Zuckerberg would be where he is today without Harvard or equivalent.  In fact the entire marketing strategy that helped grow Facebook counters that idea.  There is a reason the initial expansion that made Facebook huge was to expand to all they Ivy's and Stanford.  It was to create the idea of elite and to make everyone want to be part of the "elite network".

A Harvard initiated, elite network of students.

Are you aware that Zuckerberg is not actually a very programer/coder?  His success is not due to his brilliant coding/programming, rather a good idea at the right TIME and right PLACE (opportunity), and then the hard work to make sure it got done.

[forgetful]

Although the thing you present as a fact actually is only your opinion -- a fact can be proven with evidence, and there is no way to prove the thesis you present here -- I happen to agree with what you say.

All kinds of successful people have made it without benefit of a college degree. I happen to believe that where one goes to school is, in general, overrated. Again, that is my opinion and I am not presenting it as a fact.

Curious as to this point.  If your point is "where you go to undergrad," is over-rated, I agree in the instance that you intend on going to graduate/professional school. 

If it is a general statement, I strongly disagree.  People making hiring decisions spend about 10-15 seconds looking at a resume.  If they see "Marquette" they may stop and look at the rest.  If they see "UW-Lacrosse," they likely keep on going through the list. 

If you want to go work for places like McKinsey/Bain/BCG, they won't even look at your resume unless you are a graduate from a handful of schools.  Same for most major companies, in regards to their high profile, high paying positions.  Can you be tremendously successful without the degree from those schools, yes, but you put yourself behind the 8-ball and make the road much more challenging. 

My advice to any student.  Go to a school that is good, but cheap.  Get lots of scholarships.  Dominate all your peers and then go to an elite graduate/professional school.  Profit!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

LIU Post has a  nice campus in a good neighborhood. She probably had fun.

She had tons of fun. Loved her experienced. But she also recognizes that she probably would have had tons of fun at a SUNY and loved her experience there as well, for a fraction of the cost. Of course without Post, she wouldn't have been mentored by a professor who graduated from A&M. Without that mentorship she probably wouldn't have come to A&M and met a handsome young cheesehead in his first job out of grad school. So clearly it was worth every penny!

[brandx]

Typical left-wing thinking that no one that is uber-successful has extraordinary skills or talent. 

Who said that?

Could you give me one example?

#alternatefacts

[Tugg Speedman]

Congrats on making the discussion political.  Left/Right has nothing to do with this discussion.  Also, never said he didn't have skills or talent.  You interject these meaningless concepts in an attempt to attack the individual, since you have no rational base for your statements, and made false statements (one of your people did graduate from Harvard).

What you fail to realize and refuse to acknowledge, is that there are thousands/millions who are extraordinarily skilled and talented.  They are not a Zuckerberg because of a lack of opportunity and a lack of connections.  Being uber successful requires both skill and opportunity/connections, where the latter is far more likely to lead to long term success.

You have zero evidence to support your assertion that Zuckerberg would be where he is today without Harvard or equivalent.  In fact the entire marketing strategy that helped grow Facebook counters that idea.  There is a reason the initial expansion that made Facebook huge was to expand to all they Ivy's and Stanford.  It was to create the idea of elite and to make everyone want to be part of the "elite network".

A Harvard initiated, elite network of students.

Are you aware that Zuckerberg is not actually a very programer/coder?  His success is not due to his brilliant coding/programming, rather a good idea at the right TIME and right PLACE (opportunity), and then the hard work to make sure it got done.

Griffin started his investment fund in 1987 and was already a successful money manager by the time he earned his degree in 1989.  So yes, he is one of many people that could not wait until graduation before starting his uber-successful career, like Gates and Zuckerberg.  The difference is he finished, but did not need to as he was already make big bucks in Chicago managing money.

FYI here is an entire wiki page with dozens of people that dropped out of Harvard and became uber-successful.  The school takes talented kids, not makes talented kids.  They are so talented that they were destined to be successful and did not wait around to get a degree.  (Griffin is in a smaller category that became successful in business before they actually graduated.  But, again, did it without a degree.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Harvard_University_non-graduate_alumni

(the non-sports MU equivalent is Tom Synder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Snyder)

Are you aware that Zuckerberg is not actually a very programer/coder?  His success is not due to his brilliant coding/programming, rather a good idea at the right TIME and right PLACE (opportunity), and then the hard work to make sure it got done.

This is the story of every successful person.  They had the vision and skill to exploit the opportunity presented to them.  I have had opportunities that could have made me a billionaire, so have you, and 82 and Brandx.  We all were not skilled enough to exploit them like they did.

They have a skill the rest of us do not possess.  It was not luck.

[forgetful]

Griffin started his investment fund in 1987 and was already a successful money manager by the time he earned his degree in 1989.  So yes, he is one of many people that could not wait until graduation before starting his uber-successful career, like Gates and Zuckerberg.  The difference is he finished, but did not need to as he was already make big bucks in Chicago managing money.

FYI here is an entire wiki page with dozens of people that dropped out of Harvard and became uber-successful.  The school takes talented kids, not makes talented kids.  They are so talented that they were destined to be successful and did not wait around to get a degree.  (Griffin is in a smaller category that became successful in business before they actually graduated.  But, again, did it without a degree.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Harvard_University_non-graduate_alumni

(the non-sports MU equivalent is Tom Synder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Snyder)

Are you aware that Zuckerberg is not actually a very programer/coder?  His success is not due to his brilliant coding/programming, rather a good idea at the right TIME and right PLACE (opportunity), and then the hard work to make sure it got done.

This is the story of every successful person.  They had the vision and skill to exploit the opportunity presented to them.  I have had opportunities that could have made me a billionaire, so have you, and 82 and Brandx.  We all were not skilled enough to exploit them like they did.

They have a skill the rest of us do not possess.  It was not luck.

You love to move goal posts and deny actual facts don't you?  Griffin's fund he started in 1987 was with money from friends and family (opportunity others do not have).  It stayed family and friend until after he graduated from Harvard.  He also benefited from Harvard letting him install a satellite dish on the roof, no other University would ever allow that.  There is a ton of luck to what happened in 1987 for him, but that is irrelevant...we're focusing on where/when his success began...bottom line, he traded his mom and Grandma's money when at Harvard...that does not a successful career make.

After Graduating from Harvard, he got his real opportunities and real job/investment fund, because of his degree and connections made at Harvard.  His success came after Harvard and because of his Harvard connections.

The wiki page you linked, half the people on there did actually graduate from Harvard, many of the others either took a summer class there (not remotely relevant), or transferred to another Ivy school (like Ginsburg)...that doesn't remotely support your assertions.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that I have never had an opportunity that would have made me a billionaire, but I am most certainly skilled enough to exploit it if one arises.  But this is again moving the goalposts, you said they don't need "opportunities" provided by being at Harvard etc.

Opportunity is the number 1 thing driving success.  Number 2, is having available resources/connections to exploit that opportunity.  Number 3 is having the skills and devotion to make sure it succeeds.  All three are enhanced by being at top tier Universities.  Zuckerberg is one of the best examples of this.

But this is all opinion.  So, it is pointless, nothing you have posted supports your assertions regarding the importance of college, by using objective facts, rather conjecture and opinion.  All objective facts indicate that going to college is the best way to generate success.

[Tugg Speedman]

You love to move goal posts and deny actual facts don't you?  Griffin's fund he started in 1987 was with money from friends and family (opportunity others do not have).  It stayed family and friend until after he graduated from Harvard.  He also benefited from Harvard letting him install a satellite dish on the roof, no other University would ever allow that.  There is a ton of luck to what happened in 1987 for him, but that is irrelevant...we're focusing on where/when his success began...bottom line, he traded his mom and Grandma's money when at Harvard...that does not a successful career make.

After Graduating from Harvard, he got his real opportunities and real job/investment fund, because of his degree and connections made at Harvard.  His success came after Harvard and because of his Harvard connections.

What are saying here because this is what I hear ...

Griffin is just a lucky guy and possess no real skill.  He started with a $1 million of family money and is now worth $7.5 billion.  Anyone can so that if they just go to Harvard and have some insiders grease the skids for them.  In fact you probably think those connections are quasi-criminals or people that rig the system for their favor.

[MU82]

Congrats on making the discussion political.  Left/Right has nothing to do with this discussion.  Also, never said he didn't have skills or talent.  You interject these meaningless concepts in an attempt to attack the individual, since you have no rational base for your statements, and made false statements (one of your people did graduate from Harvard).

What you fail to realize and refuse to acknowledge, is that there are thousands/millions who are extraordinarily skilled and talented.  They are not a Zuckerberg because of a lack of opportunity and a lack of connections.  Being uber successful requires both skill and opportunity/connections, where the latter is far more likely to lead to long term success.

You have zero evidence to support your assertion that Zuckerberg would be where he is today without Harvard or equivalent.  In fact the entire marketing strategy that helped grow Facebook counters that idea.  There is a reason the initial expansion that made Facebook huge was to expand to all they Ivy's and Stanford.  It was to create the idea of elite and to make everyone want to be part of the "elite network".

A Harvard initiated, elite network of students.

Are you aware that Zuckerberg is not actually a very programer/coder?  His success is not due to his brilliant coding/programming, rather a good idea at the right TIME and right PLACE (opportunity), and then the hard work to make sure it got done.

nm

[MU82]

Curious as to this point.  If your point is "where you go to undergrad," is over-rated, I agree in the instance that you intend on going to graduate/professional school. 

If it is a general statement, I strongly disagree.  People making hiring decisions spend about 10-15 seconds looking at a resume.  If they see "Marquette" they may stop and look at the rest.  If they see "UW-Lacrosse," they likely keep on going through the list. 

If you want to go work for places like McKinsey/Bain/BCG, they won't even look at your resume unless you are a graduate from a handful of schools.  Same for most major companies, in regards to their high profile, high paying positions.  Can you be tremendously successful without the degree from those schools, yes, but you put yourself behind the 8-ball and make the road much more challenging. 

My advice to any student.  Go to a school that is good, but cheap.  Get lots of scholarships.  Dominate all your peers and then go to an elite graduate/professional school.  Profit!

I defer to your expertise on the subject.

[warriorchick]

Factr is Zuckerberg would be what he is today not matter where he went to school.  Remember he left Harvard early he was so sure Facebook would be a success.  He did not need the crutch of a Harvard degree to make it.  He was going to be a mega-star no matter what.

Try telling that to the Winkelvoss twins and see what they have to say about it.

[Tugg Speedman]

Try telling that to the Winkelvoss twins and see what they have to say about it.

Winklevii told their story to a court, they got $65 million and Zuckerberg is with more than $40 billion.

They got their answer.

[warriorchick]

Winklevii told their story to a court, they got $65 million and Zuckerberg is with more than $40 billion.

They got their answer.

But he would have never launched Facebook if it weren't for them.

[forgetful]

I defer to your expertise on the subject.

I think we are likely very close in what we are thinking/saying...a message board is just not the easiest/best way to convey and discuss complex ideas and problems though.

[Tugg Speedman]

But he would have never launched Facebook if it weren't for them.

Don't know that.  But given that he did, and is now running a company that is worth more than $300 billion and he is worth more than $56 billion (fifth richest on the planet) suggests he is an unparalleled talent.

He would have done something that would have made him worth billions, he is that good.

Restated, lots of people have ideas (the Winklevii) it takes real talent to make it an extraordinary success.

[forgetful]

Don't know that.  But given that he did, and is now running a company that is worth more than $300 billion and he is worth more than $56 billion (fifth richest on the planet) suggests he is an unparalleled talent.

He would have done something that would have made him worth billions, he is that good.

Restated, lots of people have ideas (the Winklevii) it takes real talent to make it an extraordinary success.

You do realize that Mark Zuckerberg stated that the Winklevoss twins idea/site had tremendous backing and support and a great marketing plan and would sink "his site," if both moved forward. 

He then literally said he would sabotage them and quote.  "F&*% them in the ear". 

He also only was successful, because of Eduardo Saverin, who bankrolled him.  A man he would never have met if he wasn't at Harvard.  A man who Mark also said:

"is rich only because insider trading is apparently not illegal in Brazil".

All this is only possible at Harvard.

[MU82]

I think we are likely very close in what we are thinking/saying...a message board is just not the easiest/best way to convey and discuss complex ideas and problems though.

We're cool.

Unlike some Scoopers, I don't need to "win" every discussion!

[Tugg Speedman]

You do realize that Mark Zuckerberg stated that the Winklevoss twins idea/site had tremendous backing and support and a great marketing plan and would sink "his site," if both moved forward. 

He then literally said he would sabotage them and quote.  "F&*% them in the ear". 

He also only was successful, because of Eduardo Saverin, who bankrolled him.  A man he would never have met if he wasn't at Harvard.  A man who Mark also said:

"is rich only because insider trading is apparently not illegal in Brazil".

All this is only possible at Harvard.

Recapping the Social Network does mean you have it correct

[forgetful]

Recapping the Social Network does mean you have it correct

I've never seen the Social Network.  I'm quoting the legal documents and hard data from Mark's hard drive.

But honestly, I'm done.  Believe what you want.  I've been wrapped up in your BS too much.

[Tugg Speedman]

I've never seen the Social Network.  I'm quoting the legal documents and hard data from Mark's hard drive.

But honestly, I'm done.  Believe what you want.  I've been wrapped up in your BS too much.

I believe Zuckerberg is an extraordinary talent that converted an idea in a dorm room into a $300 billion company in 15 years.  That makes him one of the greatest business people to have ever lived and he is only in his mid-30s.  Restated, I believe he could have dropped out of high school and have been as successful as Harvard takes kids that are extraordinary, not makes them extraordinary.

Apparently you seem to be arguing that anyone could have done this and he was merely the lucky one that was in the right place at the right time.  You're also insinuating that since he is rich, not only is he lucky (again rich is always luck, never talent) but he is either a thief or of questionable morals.  And further your language suggests that the Harvard connections he used must have been shady be they are rich too and since they are rich, they too were merely lucky or stole their wealth.

I'm done with this BS too.

[dgies9156]

Wow, this is bizarre. A debate on the value of college degenerates into a political argument about Mark Zuckerberg.

Couple of constants in life that I hope will help bring closure to this debate:

1) Life aint fair. Never has been. Never will be. Some people who are brilliant struggle mightily in life while some folks who are dumb as ditchwater do extraordinarily well. There's a whole range of factors from brilliance, to drive, to marrying well, to opportunity to blind luck that enter into the equation and sadly, not everyone who works hard gets ahead.

2) No amount of government is going to change Item 1. It can help at the margins by making sure that opportunity exists for everyone, but you can't legislate total fairness. Fairness is an abstract quality and one would hope that it exists in our hearts and our heads.

3) College helps. A person has to take advantage of every single opportunity before him or her. College is one of those opportunities. It teaches. It is a bridge between the world of your family and the real world you are about to enter. Sure, there have been a lot of successful and happy people who never set foot on a college campus. But as I tell my children, don't sit and wait around for a Mark Zuckerberg opportunity to hit you (well, not quite that way but you know what I mean). Zuckerberg is one is about 125 million and if you believe the stars are with you, buy lottery tickets and keep working!

Look, notwithstanding the political aspects of what's been said, it is interesting to listen to different perspectives on college. I do hope that Dr. Lovell and the MU team is listening to some of the very legitimate concerns about the cost of Marquette and the access that many of our children and grandchildren will have to the university.