MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 5DollarPitcher on January 29, 2021, 03:23:08 PM
-
Sometimes I ask myself this question, and I think it resonates how the program has completely lost its identity. We’ve sold our soul or, more aptly, Wojo has sold our soul.
-
Bigger question is if MU would admit them. And that pre-dated Wojo's arrival.
-
Butler, maybe. He had a path to graduation and 3 years. Crowder, no. He had no path to graduation. Wade... Not sure. Partial qualifying really doesn't exist. Maybe a year at prep school?
None of that is Wojo's fault. Even though it is only a decade or two, it is a different world.
No. They all used up their eligibility years ago.
-
Sometimes I ask myself this question, and I think it resonates how the program has completely lost its identity. We’ve sold our soul or, more aptly, Wojo has sold our soul.
Yeah, Wojo has nothing to do with this question.
But to answer it, my understanding is Maybe (partial qualifier isn't a thing anymore), Yes, No. And that's okay as long as they occasionally bring in equally talented basketball players instead. Well, maybe expecting equal talent as Wade is unreasonable, but the other two. That hasn't happened since Jae graduated.
-
Would MU cover up players attacking the public, gang raping students, recruiting (albeit minor violations)? See it goes both ways you can't lament that we aren't recruiting Buzz guys but not take the bad that was happening as well
-
Would MU cover up players attacking the public, gang raping students, recruiting (albeit minor violations)? See it goes both ways you can't lament that we aren't recruiting Buzz guys but not take the bad that was happening as well
Jucos = rape? Nice broad brush there.
To answer the OP...
Probably not but they will post the heck out of them on social media. Gotta get that clout.
-
Would MU cover up players attacking the public, gang raping students, recruiting (albeit minor violations)? See it goes both ways you can't lament that we aren't recruiting Buzz guys but not take the bad that was happening as well
Jesus...this is insane. Attacking the public? What exactly does that mean? Gang raping students? What!?!?
-
Jucos = rape? Nice broad brush there.
To answer the OP...
Probably not but they will post the heck out of them on social media. Gotta get that clout.
No he's lamenting over two buzz guys. You can't complain about not getting those guys without some thought as to why we stopped in the first place. This poster has stated he was not at MU yet during that time so perhaps he was unaware of the history that started making MU say "were done with those guys"
Jesus...this is insane. Attacking the public? What exactly does that mean? Gang raping students? What!?!?
I'm sorry are you using selective memory or have you forgotten Vander punching a guy at Qdoba, the entire teams publicized brawl at Apartment 720, the two gang rapes that happened in the 2010/11 school year, the Scott monarch violation and Juan Anderson violation.
-
Would MU cover up players attacking the public, gang raping students, recruiting (albeit minor violations)? See it goes both ways you can't lament that we aren't recruiting Buzz guys but not take the bad that was happening as well
Which of the three players I listed participated in any of the absurdity you just mentioned?
-
Butler, maybe. He had a path to graduation and 3 years. Crowder, no. He had no path to graduation. Wade... Not sure. Partial qualifying really doesn't exist. Maybe a year at prep school?
None of that is Wojo's fault. Even though it is only a decade or two, it is a different world.
No. They all used up their eligibility years ago.
Jimmy was a qualifier out of HS, he just didn’t have offers so he went JUCO. So yes.
Wade would be a qualifier now. He was admitted because Crean, Cords, and Wild found him to be a high character kid who could do well given the resources and opportunities. So yes.
Crowder? No.
-
No he's lamenting over two buzz guys. You can't complain about not getting those guys without some thought as to why we stopped in the first place. This poster has stated he was not at MU yet during that time so perhaps he was unaware of the history that started making MU say "were done with those guys"
I'm sorry are you using selective memory or have you forgotten Vander punching a guy at Qdoba, the entire teams publicized brawl at Apartment 720, the two gang rapes that happened in the 2010/11 school year, the Scott monarch violation and Juan Anderson violation.
In regards to the qdoba incident.
The player was being harassed by a highly intoxicated student. He shouldn’t have punched him, but I don’t fault him for doing it either.
-
In regards to the qdoba incident.
The player was being harassed by a highly intoxicated student. He shouldn’t have punched him, but I don’t fault him for doing it either.
Yes. And there are versions of the story that portray the highly intoxicated student in a bad light.
-
Yes. And there are versions of the story that portray the highly intoxicated student in a bad light.
I've heard it ranging from being called Vander orange to the student calling him the N word. If you can't shrug off Vander orange at 18 then you take yourself too serious and if it was the later then the student should have been reported but got what he deserved.
-
No he's lamenting over two buzz guys. You can't complain about not getting those guys without some thought as to why we stopped in the first place. This poster has stated he was not at MU yet during that time so perhaps he was unaware of the history that started making MU say "were done with those guys"
I'm sorry are you using selective memory or have you forgotten Vander punching a guy at Qdoba, the entire teams publicized brawl at Apartment 720, the two gang rapes that happened in the 2010/11 school year, the Scott monarch violation and Juan Anderson violation.
That's a tall horse you're up on. Be careful getting down.
1) Vander acted like 18 year old. Once.
2) A bunch of players acted like Sig Eps. Once.
3) Scott Monarch lied about a ride to Chicago and some tee shirts.
4) Juan Anderson went to a Brewers game.
1-4 is like a dull weekend during Al's tenure.
And everything I have heard about the rape incidents indicated that it was a walk on who came from a well respected academic institution and his parents were loaded.
If you know different, then talk. You dance around this stuff all the time and you do it in a way that reflects poorly on Jimmy, Jae, DJO, etc. It's BS and it's really low rent. Those guys don't deserve to be dragged on this.
-
Wojo has sold our soul.
??? What in the world does this mean.
Your hatred for Wojo is clouding your judgment.
-
That's a tall horse you're up on. Be careful getting down.
1) Vander acted like 18 year old. Once.
2) A bunch of players acted like Sig Eps. Once.
3) Scott Monarch lied about a ride to Chicago and some tee shirts.
4) Juan Anderson went to a Brewers game.
1-4 is like a dull weekend during Al's tenure.
And everything I have heard about the rape incidents indicated that it was a walk on who came from a well respected academic institution and his parents were loaded.
If you know different, then talk. You dance around this stuff all the time and you do it in a way that reflects poorly on Jimmy, Jae, DJO, etc. It's BS and it's really low rent. Those guys don't deserve to be dragged on this.
He has talked about it in more detail a few times.
Monarch, Juan and Vander were not big problems. Shouldn't be lumped in with the other stuff.
-
Basketball players don’t behave any differently than much of the student population. I’m by no means “woke,” but this thread is certainly something else.
-
I wonder why the program hasn’t distanced itself from Crowder? Seems hypocritical.
-
One of the players named above was involved.
The gang rape resulted in at least one “starter” being dismissed from the program after the season. And the handling of it was brutally terrible.
Montrerale Clark was scheduled to play for Marquette until he was put (still is?) in jail for raping a girl.
The “final straw” in “messing with happy” was when MU would not allow a recruit who attempted to light a girl’s hair on fire with a Bunsen burner in science lab into MU (fire department had to be called). Admin bent over backwards and stretched the rules time and again, but MU finally stood its ground and Buzz was out the door. Kid was quickly kicked out of the program that did take him for behavioral issues.
And no, I will not name names. The only one I will is the one who was convicted in the court of law.
-
Jimmy was a qualifier out of HS, he just didn’t have offers so he went JUCO. So yes.
Wade would be a qualifier now. He was admitted because Crean, Cords, and Wild found him to be a high character kid who could do well given the resources and opportunities. So yes.
Crowder? No.
I’ve heard this pro Crean/No Buzz opinions from another scooper named Chico’s.
-
I wonder why the program hasn’t distanced itself from Crowder? Seems hypocritical.
Personally, I don't see it that way. Crowder left before obtaining a degree in order to make millions in his chosen profession. That's something to be celebrated. I feel the same way about Vander and Henry. I understand why others see it differently.
-
I don't care about Monarch or Juan.
I don't really care about the brawl either. I witnessed Dom and Jerel beat on my roommate for a few seconds (while Wes and another watched). So that isn't isolated to JUCOs or whatever group.
The alleged sexual assault is a big deal.
-
I'm sorry are you using selective memory or have you forgotten Vander punching a guy at Qdoba, the entire teams publicized brawl at Apartment 720, the two gang rapes that happened in the 2010/11 school year, the Scott monarch violation and Juan Anderson violation.
I look at it as team bonding
-
That's a tall horse you're up on. Be careful getting down.
1) Vander acted like 18 year old. Once.
2) A bunch of players acted like Sig Eps. Once.
3) Scott Monarch lied about a ride to Chicago and some tee shirts.
4) Juan Anderson went to a Brewers game.
1-4 is like a dull weekend during Al's tenure.
And everything I have heard about the rape incidents indicated that it was a walk on who came from a well respected academic institution and his parents were loaded.
If you know different, then talk. You dance around this stuff all the time and you do it in a way that reflects poorly on Jimmy, Jae, DJO, etc. It's BS and it's really low rent. Those guys don't deserve to be dragged on this.
Wait, what!?!
-
I look at it as team bonding
This made me lol.
-
He has talked about it in more detail a few times.
Monarch, Juan and Vander were not big problems. Shouldn't be lumped in with the other stuff.
I know people who worked at MU then (and now) and Vander was not well thought of and was pretty commonly known to be part of the serious stuff.
-
There's a reason Vander went pro early with zero chance of being drafted. The rest of the stuff from galway is a little insane.
-
There's a reason Vander went pro early with zero chance of being drafted. The rest of the stuff from galway is a little insane.
It's not. This is the Malek Harris story all over again. I know something. I tried to allude to it. You a$$holes don't believe me and put the guy on a pedestal.
-
I know people who worked at MU then (and now) and Vander was not well thought of and was pretty commonly known to be part of the serious stuff.
I was referring specifically to the one Vander incident. Anything he was involved in beyond that, I don't know.
-
There’s fights on Wells St every single night. Vander punching someone is not a big deal at all. I actually kind of like it. We need more players like that
-
The basketball team has gotten into fights during K.O, Crean, Deane, Buzz, etc...isolating a Buzz player for this topic doesn't really hold up.
Every topic, and, every individual situation varies, and warrants its own specific exploration. But to say that fights only happened under one coach would not only be incorrect, it'd be incorrect by a lot.
-
You aren't wrong. Fights between athletes and other students and locals are a relatively common occurrence. The team was busted for being in a bar underaged and not drinking at the bar fight that took place on DJO's birthday. Sexual assaults are far, far too common. Monarch's NCAA violation was really mouse nuts in the big scheme of things. But they were all things that helped sour the relationship between Buzz and Marquette. The AD and president who hired him had left and there was friction with the new regime. And that ship sailed. Moving on.
MU isn't going to let a JUCO in that doesn't have a decent shot at graduating within the normal time frame, a la Crowder. The three year guys like Butler and DJO who are that talented and somehow missed by other programs are basically unicorns at this point. There are no partial qualifiers anymore.
So Wojo grabs high schoolers, regular transfers, and grad transfers. Welcome to 2021.
-
The whole "path to graduation thing" really rubs me the wrong way. We admitted Henry freaking Ellenson. That kid was never going to earn more than 12-15 credits at MU. Jae was on campus for 4 semesters plus summer sessions, he absolutely could have put in time to move towards a degree. I don't get why were all wrapped up in the eligibility clock. These players should have unlimited access to a MU degree even after their time on the court is done.
-
I don't disagree.
-
The whole "path to graduation thing" really rubs me the wrong way. We admitted Henry freaking Ellenson. That kid was never going to earn more than 12-15 credits at MU. Jae was on campus for 4 semesters plus summer sessions, he absolutely could have put in time to move towards a degree. I don't get why were all wrapped up in the eligibility clock. These players should have unlimited access to a MU degree even after their time on the court is done.
As long as the NCAA cares about APR, Marquette will care about the path to graduation. Anyone that cares about Marquette being NCAA eligible would also care about the path to graduation, I imagine. That focus changed once teams like UConn faced tournament ineligibility because of it.
-
As long as the NCAA cares about APR, Marquette will care about the path to graduation. Anyone that cares about Marquette being NCAA eligible would also care about the path to graduation, I imagine. That focus changed once teams like UConn faced tournament ineligibility because of it.
It was my understanding that all you needed was kids who finished their semester in good standing. So a Todd Mayo getting a 1.8 but finishing the semester is better than Henry E dropping out of school in March to prep for the draft.
-
It was my understanding that all you needed was kids who finished their semester in good standing. So a Todd Mayo getting a 1.8 but finishing the semester is better than Henry E dropping out of school in March to prep for the draft.
Let's not forget how the second the final buzzer went off after that 2017 NCAA tournament loss, Katin Reinhardt was ordering an Uber to the airport, a ticket to California in hand.
-
I may be wrong, but don't grad transfers count differently on the APR?
-
It was my understanding that all you needed was kids who finished their semester in good standing. So a Todd Mayo getting a 1.8 but finishing the semester is better than Henry E dropping out of school in March to prep for the draft.
Sort of. Here's the oversimplified version.
Schools get 2 points for having an athlete stay in school and stay academically eligible.
Schools get 1 point for having an athlete stay in school who's academically ineligible
Schools get 1 point for having an athlete leave school while academically eligible
Schools get 0 points for having an athlete leave school while academically ineligible
To stay academically eligible, athletes need to complete certain %s of their required coursework by certain points. They also need to maintain a minimum GPA determined by each school. Marquette's is 2.0 (C-average).
So in the example you gave, Mayo and Henry would both be worth 1 point, assuming Henry was academically eligible and Mayo stayed in school. I think in actuality, Mayo ended up being worth 0 points.
There may be more specific rules for specific situations like grad transfers and players who go pro. I just know the basics.
-
It was my understanding that all you needed was kids who finished their semester in good standing. So a Todd Mayo getting a 1.8 but finishing the semester is better than Henry E dropping out of school in March to prep for the draft.
Both are bad because 1.8 isn't high enough to retain NCAA eligibility. Finishing semesters with a 2.3 or higher GPA is the path to success. The path Marquette has chosen to take to achieve both of those is pursuing players that can be on a path to graduation.
-
Both are bad because 1.8 isn't high enough to retain NCAA eligibility. Finishing semesters with a 2.3 or higher GPA is the path to success. The path Marquette has chosen to take to achieve both of those is pursuing players that can be on a path to graduation.
Got it and we know getting that 1.8 to a 2.3 is lot easier than getting a lottery pick to finish the semester.
-
Both are bad because 1.8 isn't high enough to retain NCAA eligibility. Finishing semesters with a 2.3 or higher GPA is the path to success. The path Marquette has chosen to take to achieve both of those is pursuing players that can be on a path to graduation.
I think 2.3 is the standard for hs GPA to be recruited. My understanding is that each school determines their own college gpa requirements (it has to match their standards for other students to graduate).
-
The player with no path to graduate is MU’s “NBA Performance of the Night”
PRESENTED BY GRUBER LAW OFFICES
https://www.instagram.com/p/CKpi8A1ho1G/?igshid=123ikmp1mhy37 (https://www.instagram.com/p/CKpi8A1ho1G/?igshid=123ikmp1mhy37)
-
Sew, watt iz it dat wee all want heer? Iz it a bunch of choir bois hoo kant play know fooki' hoops or a teem, wee as alums, ar proud of and kan brag 'bout, hey?
-
I wouldn't describe our team as choir boys. Unfortunately, they also have been as good at hoops as I'd like them to be.
-
Sort of. Here's the oversimplified version.
Schools get 2 points for having an athlete stay in school and stay academically eligible.
Schools get 1 point for having an athlete stay in school who's academically ineligible
Schools get 1 point for having an athlete leave school while academically eligible
Schools get 0 points for having an athlete leave school while academically ineligible
To stay academically eligible, athletes need to complete certain %s of their required coursework by certain points. They also need to maintain a minimum GPA determined by each school. Marquette's is 2.0 (C-average).
So in the example you gave, Mayo and Henry would both be worth 1 point, assuming Henry was academically eligible and Mayo stayed in school. I think in actuality, Mayo ended up being worth 0 points.
There may be more specific rules for specific situations like grad transfers and players who go pro. I just know the basics.
Since Henry went pro MU did not lose any points as long as he left eligible under NCAA standards: 1.8 going into sophomore year, 1.9 going into junior year, 2.0 after that.
Additionally, everyone needs to earn 6 credits per semester, 18 credits during the academic year. Also, freshmen need 24 credits going into tbe next year (summers count). Then, 40% to a degree at the start of junior year, 60% senior year, 80% fifth year of undergrad.
Under Buzz, nearly the entire team needed summer school just to get eligible for the next season.
-
Sort of. Here's the oversimplified version.
Schools get 2 points for having an athlete stay in school and stay academically eligible.
Schools get 1 point for having an athlete stay in school who's academically ineligible
Schools get 1 point for having an athlete leave school while academically eligible
Schools get 0 points for having an athlete leave school while academically ineligible
To stay academically eligible, athletes need to complete certain %s of their required coursework by certain points. They also need to maintain a minimum GPA determined by each school. Marquette's is 2.0 (C-average).
So in the example you gave, Mayo and Henry would both be worth 1 point, assuming Henry was academically eligible and Mayo stayed in school. I think in actuality, Mayo ended up being worth 0 points.
There may be more specific rules for specific situations like grad transfers and players who go pro. I just know the basics.
Thanks for the info, TAMU. But how do those points result in a school rating? Sum, average?
-
Thanks for the info, TAMU. But how do those points result in a school rating? Sum, average?
Add up the total points, divide by the total number of possible points, times by 1000 and you have your APR score.
-
TY
-
The problem with Marquette under Wojo certainly isn't the quality of player. Jucos aren't the answer to this problem.
-
Since Henry went pro MU did not lose any points as long as he left eligible under NCAA standards: 1.8 going into sophomore year, 1.9 going into junior year, 2.0 after that.
Additionally, everyone needs to earn 6 credits per semester, 18 credits during the academic year. Also, freshmen need 24 credits going into tbe next year (summers count). Then, 40% to a degree at the start of junior year, 60% senior year, 80% fifth year of undergrad.
Under Buzz, nearly the entire team needed summer school just to get eligible for the next season.
Wasn’t Buzz’s average APR was higher than Crean’s and about the same as Wojo’s? Please publish the numbers.
-
Wasn’t Buzz’s average APR was higher than Crean’s and about the same as Wojo’s? Please publish the numbers.
You can look them up here: https://web3.ncaa.org/aprsearch/aprsearch
The score is a four year average
04-05 (4 TC years) 918
05-06 (4 TC years) 927
06-07 (4 TC years) 954
07-08 (4 TC years) 970
08-09 (3 TC, 1 BW year): 975
09-10 (2 TC, 2 BW years): 980
10-11 (1 TC, 3 BW years: 970
11-12 (4 BW years): 960
12-13 (4 BW years): 959
13-14 (4 BW years): 949
14-15 (3 BW, 1 SW year): 962
15-16 (2 BW, 2 SW years): 966
16-17 (1 BW, 3 SW years): 950
17-18 (4 SW years): 955
18-19 (4 SW years): 968
I think my () info is correct. I'm not certain if APR is calculated at the beginning of the season or end of the season.
Low water mark is the start of TCs tenure but it steadily rises. High water mark is 09-10 which I believe is evenly split between Buzz and TC. From there the numbers go steadily down under Buzz and then trend back up under Wojo.
-
Wasn’t Buzz’s average APR was higher than Crean’s and about the same as Wojo’s? Please publish the numbers.
There have been adjustments to increase numbers. Starting in 2005 you could get a point back for going pro. 2003’s numbers reflected a lost point for Wade. In 2008 you could now get a point back for an immediate transfer to a four year school, as long as you left with a 2.6 or higher. Also, in the past few years you could now get a point back for a transfer to a JUCO if they left with a 3.3.
Crean got penalized for the transfers.
-
You can look them up here: https://web3.ncaa.org/aprsearch/aprsearch
The score is a four year average
04-05 (4 TC years) 918
05-06 (4 TC years) 927
06-07 (4 TC years) 954
07-08 (4 TC years) 970
08-09 (3 TC, 1 BW year): 975
09-10 (2 TC, 2 BW years): 980
10-11 (1 TC, 3 BW years: 970
11-12 (4 BW years): 960
12-13 (4 BW years): 959
13-14 (4 BW years): 949
14-15 (3 BW, 1 SW year): 962
15-16 (2 BW, 2 SW years): 966
16-17 (1 BW, 3 SW years): 950
17-18 (4 SW years): 955
18-19 (4 SW years): 968
I think my () info is correct. I'm not certain if APR is calculated at the beginning of the season or end of the season.
Low water mark is the start of TCs tenure but it steadily rises. High water mark is 09-10 which I believe is evenly split between Buzz and TC. From there the numbers go steadily down under Buzz and then trend back up under Wojo.
Thanks, TAMU. Nice to be able to put to rest the fictions pushed by some. Crean/Buzz/Wojo numbers pretty much the same.
-
Thanks, TAMU. Nice to be able to put to rest the fictions pushed by some. Crean/Buzz/Wojo numbers pretty much the same.
Only if you don’t understand how the numbers work.
-
Only if you don’t understand how the numbers work.
Right. A Wojo 955 > a Buzz 960. Because...LOL
-
Thanks, TAMU. Nice to be able to put to rest the fictions pushed by some. Crean/Buzz/Wojo numbers pretty much the same.
Sure, but I do think the trend is relevant. Buzz was trending down while TC and Wojo trended up. We also don't know how close to the line of eligibility each coach's players were. APR is like RPI, doesn't matter how much you got the W by, it just matters that you got the W. For example, Coach A could have his entire team get a 2.0 and stay in school. Coach B could have his entire team get 4.0s but one player leaves early to go pro and doesn't finish the semester. APR would say Coach A has better academics but common sense would say coach B does.
-
Sure, but I do think the trend is relevant. Buzz was trending down while TC and Wojo trended up. We also don't know how close to the line of eligibility each coach's players were. APR is like RPI, doesn't matter how much you got the W by, it just matters that you got the W. For example, Coach A could have his entire team get a 2.0 and stay in school. Coach B could have his entire team get 4.0s but one player leaves early to go pro and doesn't finish the semester. APR would say Coach A has better academics but common sense would say coach B does.
Understood. But, bottom line, our APR was ever really a problem under Buzz no matter the fiction Billy, Bias and others might try to sell us.
-
Understood. But, bottom line, our APR was ever really a problem under Buzz no matter the fiction Billy, Bias and others might try to sell us.
Actually, the 949 is concerning as 930 results in scholarship reductions and post season bans. The annual APR for 13-14 was 920. a small roster one two two more lost points is significant.
-
Important to remember: during this time, Bucky graduated zero Black players.
-
Based on the fact that Wojo rarely uses all available scholarships, it looks to me like he doesn't understand how this works either. Why not park an Einstein on the end of your bench to help the numbers and have an extra practice player? Instead he leaves the slot open and misses yet another opportunity to improve the program.
So I'll add to my "no-jo"-ism that in addition to not knowing much about coaching an actual game of basketball and not knowing much about metrics, he also doesn't know much about APR.
Buzz's average was 5.3 higher than Wojo's by the way... just in case no-one else did the math. (Wojo also lower than tanned Tommy if you count his partial years as well!)
-
Buzz's average was 5.3 higher than Wojo's by the way... just in case no-one else did the math. (Wojo also lower than tanned Tommy if you count his partial years as well!)
These numbers are 4-year rolling averages, not the numbers for the specific year. Without knowing the individual scores for each year, the only averages we can accurately compare are the averages for years where one coach was responsible for the entire APR score. So in this case:
TC (04-05 to 07-08): 942.5
BW (11-12 to 13-14): 956
SW (17-18 & 18-19): 961.5
Also, as pointed out before, both TC and SW trended up. BW trended down.
Billy said that there were changes to how APR was calculated too. I honestly don't know what those changes were.
-
If I remember right, there was a bit of concern when the 949 was released. I also think there was a lot of talk that some of Larry’s restrictive policies were getting in front of NCAA changes. I don’t know if the changes were implemented at the NCAA level.
I believe UCONN and UWM both had tournament bans in that timeframe for APR.