MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Dr. Blackheart on January 09, 2023, 08:33:29 AM
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https://www.facebook.com/100042580727207/posts/pfbid0iFSKdorYsY7J4ptTiAggfmNrV3JVCX8AdhyuSnzRj59SrBnRcAigPSuzEQAaAyHyl/?app=fbl
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Thanks for sharing.
Great read.
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Dr. B
That is a game that many will never forget. I always enjoy reading this piece every year on FB. Thanks for sharing.
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I remember that game like it was yesterday. My recollection was that the South Carolina game was a Sunday afternoon, national game. We were living in Nashville and my Mom held up Sunday dinner (which was a big deal in our house) for it.
Our guys were penalized for playing basketball while African American in the Southeast. It was the same foul that got them eliminated in the 1971 NCAA Mideast Regional tournament against Ohio State. After 1971, we weren't taking it anymore!!!!
Kick ass and take no prisoners. The Marquette Way!
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dgies
Your memory is spot on. Best part, a nationally televised game back then was a really big deal.
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Yup late Sunday afternoon start. Wasn't a guy named Tom Riker one of the South Carolina villians?
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Yup late Sunday afternoon start. Wasn't a guy named Tom Riker one of the South Carolina villians?
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/stexpanded/images/2/20/Triker.jpg)
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Yup late Sunday afternoon start. Wasn't a guy named Tom Riker one of the South Carolina villians?
Yes, Danny Traylor another big and they had Brian Winters and maybe Kevin Joyce, how good would MU had been of Winters came to MU and Allie went to NC!
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This game, the brawl, the players and Coach McGuire lack of a immediate response and remarks were really the impetus of me falling in love with Marquette Basketball….
--Lloyd Walton
With Al's response, I'd say he was playing for something bigger off the court.
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--Lloyd Walton
With Al's response, I'd say he was playing for something bigger off the court.
Brother Doc:
Can't speak directly to Dr. Walton, but I believe Al was sending a message to the world: We aint putting up with this crap. Ever again.
Several months before, we were bounced out of the NCAA Mideast Regional tournament in Athens, GA. We were playing Ohio State in a game where every possible foul was called on us. It was more disparate than the Providence game was this year. It was the only game in Dean Meminger's career where he fouled out. We'd go for a shot and out came the whistle. Many of us who saw that game, knowing the fact that the SEC and ACC had only very recently been desegregated, believed that Marquette was whistled for "Engaging in a Basketball Game While African American."
The referees who would have called that game, likely ACC or SEC officials, probably had never seen a team that played Marquette's style of ball or a team that, frankly, looked like Marquette.
Fast forward to January 1972. Marquette was back in the deep south playing a damn near lily white team. The fouls came and so did one too many elbows. The rest, shall we say, was history.
The closest Al ever came to acknowledging this was in the 1977 Midwest Regional, after the Kansas State game. Al went on a tirade and made what I think were cryptic references to these games, to Adolph Rupp (a bigot's bigot) and to the way Marquette was treated in the late 1960s and early 1970s. His bashing of the NCAA that day was quite thorough.
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Yes, Danny Traylor another big and they had Brian Winters and maybe Kevin Joyce, how good would MU had been of Winters came to MU and Allie went to NC!
About the same. We were damn good in those days and while Winters might have been a slight improvement, Allie was no slouch.
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Brother Doc:
Can't speak directly to Dr. Walton, but I believe Al was sending a message to the world: We aint putting up with this crap. Ever again.
Several months before, we were bounced out of the NCAA Mideast Regional tournament in Athens, GA. We were playing Ohio State in a game where every possible foul was called on us. It was more disparate than the Providence game was this year. It was the only game in Dean Meminger's career where he fouled out. We'd go for a shot and out came the whistle. Many of us who saw that game, knowing the fact that the SEC and ACC had only very recently been desegregated, believed that Marquette was whistled for "Engaging in a Basketball Game While African American."
The referees who would have called that game, likely ACC or SEC officials, probably had never seen a team that played Marquette's style of ball or a team that, frankly, looked like Marquette.
Fast forward to January 1972. Marquette was back in the deep south playing a damn near lily white team. The fouls came and so did one too many elbows. The rest, shall we say, was history.
The closest Al ever came to acknowledging this was in the 1977 Midwest Regional, after the Kansas State game. Al went on a tirade and made what I think were cryptic references to these games, to Adolph Rupp (a bigot's bigot) and to the way Marquette was treated in the late 1960s and early 1970s. His bashing of the NCAA that day was quite thorough.
Yep. That is "something bigger off the floor".
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About the same. We were damn good in those days and while Winters might have been a slight improvement, Allie was no slouch.
Allie was solid but was not a great shooter! Winters was a great shooter as we saw as a Buck!
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About the same. We were damn good in those days and while Winters might have been a slight improvement, Allie was no slouch.
right on dog! allie played McG-ball. winters however was really good, i don't think he would have grasped McG-ball. plus he had grass in his front yard :D
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I am very happy that Allie played at MU, like him a lot as a person and as a player. That said, I'll take Brian Winters every day of the week.
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Several months before, we were bounced out of the NCAA Mideast Regional tournament in Athens, GA. We were playing Ohio State in a game where every possible foul was called on us. It was more disparate than the Providence game was this year. It was the only game in Dean Meminger's career where he fouled out. We'd go for a shot and out came the whistle. Many of us who saw that game, knowing the fact that the SEC and ACC had only very recently been desegregated, believed that Marquette was whistled for "Engaging in a Basketball Game While African American."
I've heard this story repeatedly but never watched a replay of the game or looked at the box score. I was curious so I tracked down the box score. https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/1971-03-18-marquette.html. The foul disparity was 2. The Warriors had 19 fouls, Ohio State had 17 fouls. Ohio State shot 1 more FT than MU. Now that doesn't mean that reffing was unbiased...but I have a hard time with "it was more disparate than the Providence game" when the foul disparity in that game was 13 and the FTA disparity was 30.
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Frank McGuire was the SC coach. He had the pipeline for the NYC/Long Island players at the time, having been from NY and the prior coach at St. John's. All of below went to USC.
Mike Dunleavy, NYC
John Roche, Brooklyn
Tom Riker, St Dominics, LI
Brian Winters, Archbishop Malloy, Queens
Kevin Joyce, Archbishop Malloy, Queens
Back in the day, they were extremely talented basketball players, especially Roche, one of the best ever in the ACC.
Right after those in early 1970s, there was:
Mitch Kupchack, Brentwood, LI to UNC
Frank Alagia, St. Agnes, LI to St. Johns
Gus Williams, Mt. Vernon to USoCal
Ray Williams, Mt. Vernon to Minnesota
And of course, William's teammate, Earl Tatum.
The NYC leagues and the Long Island CHSSA had some of the best players in the country almost every year.
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I've heard this story repeatedly but never watched a replay of the game or looked at the box score. I was curious so I tracked down the box score. https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/1971-03-18-marquette.html. The foul disparity was 2. The Warriors had 19 fouls, Ohio State had 17 fouls. Ohio State shot 1 more FT than MU. Now that doesn't mean that reffing was unbiased...but I have a hard time with "it was more disparate than the Providence game" when the foul disparity in that game was 13 and the FTA disparity was 30.
I had a pretty good idea this was the case but was too lazy to look it up. Time has turned two charges (the hardest call to make in basketball) into the greatest screw job in the history of sports. Keep on Scooping.
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I've heard this story repeatedly but never watched a replay of the game or looked at the box score. I was curious so I tracked down the box score. https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/1971-03-18-marquette.html. The foul disparity was 2. The Warriors had 19 fouls, Ohio State had 17 fouls. Ohio State shot 1 more FT than MU. Now that doesn't mean that reffing was unbiased...but I have a hard time with "it was more disparate than the Providence game" when the foul disparity in that game was 13 and the FTA disparity was 30.
Guys, with all due respect, I overstated the issue by comparing it to the Providence game. That's what happens when a game was 51 years ago. But, the strong feeling among our guys at the time was that we were abused by the referees. Outside of government, statistics doesn't tell the whole story and they didn't that day.
At the annual basketball banquet afterward, Marquette named the referees in the Ohio State game to its all-opponent team.
We all know from our years of watching our beloved Warriors that a strategic call at just the right moment could be a game-changing decision. On that day, we got screwed (and unlike Al, I rarely say that, then or now!). Al went off in 1977 over technicals he received and noted that he thought the NCAA refs were "brainwashed" about him.
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Guys, with all due respect, I overstated the issue by comparing it to the Providence game. That's what happens when a game was 51 years ago. But, the strong feeling among our guys at the time was that we were abused by the referees. Outside of government, statistics doesn't tell the whole story and they didn't that day.
At the annual basketball banquet afterward, Marquette named the referees in the Ohio State game to its all-opponent team.
We all know from our years of watching our beloved Warriors that a strategic call at just the right moment could be a game-changing decision. On that day, we got screwed (and unlike Al, I rarely say that, then or now!). Al went off in 1977 over technicals he received and noted that he thought the NCAA refs were "brainwashed" about him.
absolutely dog and i believe this carried right over and thru the 1978 season, including jerome getting thrown out of the first round game against miami of ohio.
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So I guess blaming the refs is a long Marquette tradition, descending from Al himself.
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So I guess blaming the refs is a long Marquette tradition, descending from Al himself.
Your point? ;D
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Guys, with all due respect, I overstated the issue by comparing it to the Providence game. That's what happens when a game was 51 years ago. But, the strong feeling among our guys at the time was that we were abused by the referees. Outside of government, statistics doesn't tell the whole story and they didn't that day.
At the annual basketball banquet afterward, Marquette named the referees in the Ohio State game to its all-opponent team.
We all know from our years of watching our beloved Warriors that a strategic call at just the right moment could be a game-changing decision. On that day, we got screwed (and unlike Al, I rarely say that, then or now!). Al went off in 1977 over technicals he received and noted that he thought the NCAA refs were "brainwashed" about him.
It's all good Brother Dgies. I'm sure when I'm scooping in 50 years, the distance of Markus' threes will get longer every time I tell the whippersnappers about it
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absolutely dog and i believe this carried right over and thru the 1978 season, including jerome getting thrown out of the first round game against miami of ohio.
Brother Rocket:
Not sure I agree. We were playing Miami of Frickin Ohio. There was no excuse for even allowing them into that game. Not then. Not now. NOT EVER!!!
The referees were bad, I agree. But the reason we lost was a loss of composure on our part, which reflects poor coaching. We should have looked outside the family for Al's replacement. We could have had about anyone not named Bob Knight or Dean Smith. Instead, we went with the Phil Bengston of Marquette athletics and we lost our composure when it mattered.
Sadly, we beat ourselves that day. Kirby Smart said it best yesterday after his Bulldogs took out TCU: "There's not a sense of entitlement here." By 1978, there was a sense among many of us that we were entitled -- that the success we had enjoyed for more than a decade was permanent.
We paid the price for that game and the ensuing breakdowns for decades. Hopefully, with Shaka, those horribly sad years are over.
I'll blame the refs for Ohio State in 1971. But don't blame them for our loss of composure.
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Brother Rocket:
Not sure I agree. We were playing Miami of Frickin Ohio. There was no excuse for even allowing them into that game. Not then. Not now. NOT EVER!!!
The referees were bad, I agree. But the reason we lost was a loss of composure on our part, which reflects poor coaching. We should have looked outside the family for Al's replacement. We could have had about anyone not named Bob Knight or Dean Smith. Instead, we went with the Phil Bengston of Marquette athletics and we lost our composure when it mattered.
Sadly, we beat ourselves that day. Kirby Smart said it best yesterday after his Bulldogs took out TCU: "There's not a sense of entitlement here." By 1978, there was a sense among many of us that we were entitled -- that the success we had enjoyed for more than a decade was permanent.
We paid the price for that game and the ensuing breakdowns for decades. Hopefully, with Shaka, those horribly sad years are over.
I'll blame the refs for Ohio State in 1971. But don't blame them for our loss of composure.
i believe you're right dog, thanks for talking me off the ledge. i will never forget that game, watching at fv grunts my freshman year and thought this was my time to party down wisco ave till sunrise...damn, well i made up for the party until sunrise (probably too)many times after that. i do like your version better than mine. goose and i talk about some of the players we COULD have had and i just can't believe little ole MU was on the cusp of potentially making some real noise for a while...scooter and rodney, alfredrick, et.al
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i believe you're right dg, thanks for talking me off the ledge. i will never forget that game, watching at fv grunts my freshman year and thought this was my time to party down wisco ave till sunrise...damn, well i made up for the party until sunrise (probably too)many times after that. i do like your version better than mine. goose and i talk about some of the players we COULD have had and i just can't believe little ole MU was on the cusp of potentially making some real noise for a while...scooter and rodney, alfredrick, et.al
Brother Rocket:
Everybody makes mistakes, but it takes a Quentin Quade (MU's Head of Administration to whom the program reported in 1977) to do a screw-up that lasts 40 years.
I admire Hank Raymonds and his commitment to our program. But I fail to see what he had in 1977 that he didn't have in 1964, when he was passed over for Coach Al. It was a mistake of good intentions that went horribly wrong in 1978.
After the Miami of Frickin Ohio fiasco, we should have honored Hank and either moved him into an administrative position or retired him with a hefty payout. Let him be radio and television commentator. Or be an ambassador to all that is good at Marquette. Our name still meant something and we had cover in more ways than one. With the right person, we could have hit refresh and by 1981, been back in the mix for greatness.
Crap happens. But when we lay a landfill sized mound of it, don't blame the refs!!!!
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MU's biggest mistake was not hiring the 2nd winningest coach in Marquette history, it was in the decision to remain independent and not join the Big East (and subsequently ESPN) on May 31, 1979.
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MU's biggest mistake was not hiring the 2nd winningest coach in Marquette history, it was in the decision to remain independent and not join the Big East (and subsequently ESPN) on May 31, 1979.
Were they invited? If so, yeah that was a problem.
Hiring Majerus was an issue as well.
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Brother Rocket:
Everybody makes mistakes, but it takes a Quentin Quade (MU's Head of Administration to whom the program reported in 1977) to do a screw-up that lasts 40 years.
I admire Hank Raymonds and his commitment to our program. But I fail to see what he had in 1977 that he didn't have in 1964, when he was passed over for Coach Al. It was a mistake of good intentions that went horribly wrong in 1978.
After the Miami of Frickin Ohio fiasco, we should have honored Hank and either moved him into an administrative position or retired him with a hefty payout. Let him be radio and television commentator. Or be an ambassador to all that is good at Marquette. Our name still meant something and we had cover in more ways than one. With the right person, we could have hit refresh and by 1981, been back in the mix for greatness.
Crap happens. But when we lay a landfill sized mound of it, don't blame the refs!!!!
I'm on board with saying it was a big mistake especially when two years later we went to three crappy tournament seeds and missed one altogether but maybe chill on the doom and gloom of "40yrs" as if in the least 94, 03, 11, 12, & 13 never happened
let alone 93, 96, 97, 02, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 17, 19, (arguably 20), & 22
MU just since O'Neil has a body of work a crap ton of college basketball programs would be jealous of.
MU's biggest mistake was not hiring the 2nd winningest coach in Marquette history
Bill Chandler?
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Were they invited? If so, yeah that was a problem.
Hiring Majerus was an issue as well.
Marquette BB had the #1 cachet at that time of all BB independents. Purportedly, MU was asked early on and the admin shut it down as they preferred being Independent. Not having the foresight to see the importance of a conference or seeing a new media emerging were the eff ups that left the university contemplating dropping down to D2 about a decade later.
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IMO the hiring of Hank was decision that changed the trajectory of the program. While I would have liked Denny Crum, that would have been a tough call to make. QQ was the wrong guy to be in charge of the transition.
I agree with Dr. B that joining the BE was a major blunder. Once MU decided to join a conference they were chasing. Good news, pretty soon folks will be chasing MU basketball again.
As for ‘78, the program had already lost it’s luster before the Miami game. I knew it was on the decline when they were ranked #1 and lost to Loyola in February. That is how fast the MU mystique was gone.
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MU still had a functioning Athletic Board made up of a few alums and profs at that timeframe. Though the board’s authority waned as time went on, it was involved in the decision to join a conference and the Hank and Rick hires. I knew some on that board—friends of my father. All good people with not a clue about big time athletics.
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So I guess blaming the refs is a long Marquette tradition, descending from Al himself.
Actually, though Al got more than his share of technical, he NEVER blamed the refs after games. During the game, yes (hence the Ts), but never after.
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I am firm believer that the issue at MU demise was the recruitment of Rodney McCray or Mark Aquirre, Hank did not want to take Skip Dillard as it was a package deal but he thought he had MaCray. DePaul getting Aquirre got them Terry Cummings. Oh well, spillled milk.
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Actually, though Al got more than his share of technical, he NEVER blamed the refs after games. During the game, yes (hence the Ts), but never after.
Doesn’t jibe with this.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=63991.msg1499875#msg1499875
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BC
You are correct and it all is related to the MU/Al mystique. Al had Aquirre locked up and his retirement changed that outcome. No one was going to force Al into a package deal and Hank did not have Al’s recruiting chops. Been discussed many times on here, but if Al would have stayed, his run would have been unreal with the guys who wanted to play at MU. A true who’s who of Ncaa and pro studs.
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Skip Dillard was never getting into MU. Academically or otherwise.
https://www.upi.com/amp/Archives/1987/09/11/Former-DePaul-basketball-star-Norman-Skip-Dillard-Thursday-was/7504558331200/
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MU still had a functioning Athletic Board made up of a few alums and profs at that timeframe. Though the board’s authority waned as time went on, it was involved in the decision to join a conference and the Hank and Rick hires. I knew some on that board—friends of my father. All good people with not a clue about big time athletics.
Not sure that is true. I was one the board and the BE did not come up in any discussion when I was on in late 70's.
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Skip Dillard was never getting into MU. Academically or otherwise.
https://www.upi.com/amp/Archives/1987/09/11/Former-DePaul-basketball-star-Norman-Skip-Dillard-Thursday-was/7504558331200/
Imagine how bad Marquette’s endowment would be had he been allowed on campus
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Or da kampus krime, aina?
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Not sure that is true. I was one the board and the BE did not come up in any discussion when I was on in late 70's.
My understanding is that there was never an invite and the discussion among the powers was there was no need to join any conference. Was the balance of my statement accurate?
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That was a fun read. Thanks for posting!
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:P
Brother Rocket:
Not sure I agree. We were playing Miami of Frickin Ohio. There was no excuse for even allowing them into that game. Not then. Not now. NOT EVER!!!
The referees were bad, I agree. But the reason we lost was a loss of composure on our part, which reflects poor coaching. We should have looked outside the family for Al's replacement. We could have had about anyone not named Bob Knight or Dean Smith. Instead, we went with the Phil Bengston of Marquette athletics and we lost our composure when it mattered.
Sadly, we beat ourselves that day. Kirby Smart said it best yesterday after his Bulldogs took out TCU: "There's not a sense of entitlement here." By 1978, there was a sense among many of us that we were entitled -- that the success we had enjoyed for more than a decade was permanent.
We paid the price for that game and the ensuing breakdowns for decades. Hopefully, with Shaka, those horribly sad years are over.
I'll blame the refs for Ohio State in 1971. But don't blame them for our loss of composure.
dgies9156:
I was at Market Square that fateful day when it became clear our legacy was squandered .
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My understanding is that there was never an invite and the discussion among the powers was there was no need to join any conference. Was the balance of my statement accurate?
My recollection is that not only was there no invite from the BE circa 1979, but that there was no real discussion àbout MU joining.
You have to go back in time to remember the mindset. Conferences were still very regional creatures. The idea of schools in Milwaukee and Chicago aligning with a rag tag group of basically New England schools was a foreign concept. And in 1979, the likes of Georgetown, Seton Hall, etc were only viewed as modestly successful basketball programs.
And, from the Marquette vantage point, we were " the Kings of the Hill" at that time. Combine some arrogance with a lack of foresight and I think even if invited, MU would have declined. Remember, the " Great Independents" ( Marquette, DePaul, Dayton and Notre Dame) was the place to be in the late 1970s. DePaul had the Super station WGN. MU had the glory of the 60s and70s. Notre Dame was Notre Dame. None of us needed no stinken' Big East and some television experiment called, of all things, Entertainment and Sports Programing Network.
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:Pdgies9156:
I was at Market Square that fateful day when it became clear our legacy was squandered .
I was at that game as well. Ugh. Long ride back to Milwaukee. Should have won big time. Ugh
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Doesn’t jibe with this.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=63991.msg1499875#msg1499875
???
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I'm on board with saying it was a big mistake especially when two years later we went to three crappy tournament seeds and missed one altogether but maybe chill on the doom and gloom of "40yrs" as if in the least 94, 03, 11, 12, & 13 never happened
let alone 93, 96, 97, 02, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 17, 19, (arguably 20), & 22
MU just since O'Neil has a body of work a crap ton of college basketball programs would be jealous of.
Brother Galway:
You have to realize just how far we have fallen. For example, we are ranked 25th this week. Hats off to the team and to Coach Shaka for the accomplishment. They've worked hard and it's my view that we're building something that will be lasting. But, during Coach McGuire's tenure, a ranking of 20 (then the lowest ranked position) would have triggered major angst both locally and nationally.
During the 1970s, we were consistently a Top 10 and usually a Top 5 team. We were THAT good. We regularly had among the top recruiting classes in the nation. Had we not lost three of our very best players to the NBA at mostly odd times of the year -- Jim Chones, Maurice Lucas and Larry McNeill -- we probably would have multiple final four banners and at least one more NCAA Championship banner hanging in the FiServ. Had the NCAA been seeded then, we probably would have been a 1 seed every year from 1971 to 1978. At worst, we would have been a 2.
I get times have changed. Heck, North Carolina isn't in the Top 25 and Duke barely made it (one ahead of us). Talent has been more broadly distributed and more schools are good at college basketball. But we really had something special and the 40 years of crap comment was a function of comparing then to now. I'd argue the only years that were even close were 2003 and a few of the better Buzz years.
What I see as the difference between then and now is the fact that we've had a few very good teams, several good teams but nothing (with the exception of a few years under Buzz) that has been sustainable. We get really good and then fade quickly. With stability of coaching and Coach Shaka with us hopefully for the long haul, the sustainability that has eluded us may finally be gone!
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Brother Galway:
You have to realize just how far we have fallen. For example, we are ranked 25th this week. Hats off to the team and to Coach Shaka for the accomplishment. They've worked hard and it's my view that we're building something that will be lasting. But, during Coach McGuire's tenure, a ranking of 20 (then the lowest ranked position) would have triggered major angst both locally and nationally.
During the 1970s, we were consistently a Top 10 and usually a Top 5 team. We were THAT good. We regularly had among the top recruiting classes in the nation. Had we not lost three of our very best players to the NBA at mostly odd times of the year -- Jim Chones, Maurice Lucas and Larry McNeill -- we probably would have multiple final four banners and at least one more NCAA Championship banner hanging in the FiServ. Had the NCAA been seeded then, we probably would have been a 1 seed every year from 1971 to 1978. At worst, we would have been a 2.
I get times have changed. Heck, North Carolina isn't in the Top 25 and Duke barely made it (one ahead of us). Talent has been more broadly distributed and more schools are good at college basketball. But we really had something special and the 40 years of crap comment was a function of comparing then to now. I'd argue the only years that were even close were 2003 and a few of the better Buzz years.
What I see as the difference between then and now is the fact that we've had a few very good teams, several good teams but nothing (with the exception of a few years under Buzz) that has been sustainable. We get really good and then fade quickly. With stability of coaching and Coach Shaka with us hopefully for the long haul, the sustainability that has eluded us may finally be gone!
We were (at least allegedly) the last team in the field in 1977.
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We were (at least allegedly) the last team in the field in 1977.
And in 1977, the NCAA didn't even have a Selection Show for the Tournament. Marquette was playing its last regular season game against UM in Ann Arbor on a Sunday afternoon, and they got the telephone call at halftime.
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We were (at least allegedly) the last team in the field in 1977.
I'd probably agree with you in 1977. Not too many teams with as many losses as we had ever made the tournament.
That doesn't diminish the point of exactly how good we were back then. And, whether we were first or last in 1977, we were a very, very good program. Compare even that team to recent history and the latter pales in comparison. At least until Coach Shaka brings us back!
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wades
Yes, they were the last team invited in 1977. They also were preseason #1 in the country and were #1 the following season and the best program in the country at that point.
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How many teams were in the tournament in the 70s? 16? 32?
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shooter
32
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That’s what i thought so as the last at large team back then you were still absolutely one of the best teams in the country.
Obviously the championship proved that theory.
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Shooter
The '76 and '77 teams were loaded. I favor '76 over '77 but that is my opinion. '76 we entered the NCAA ranked #2, with one loss, but were put in the same region as undefeated Indiana and lost in the regional finals. '77 was a messed-up year, but IMO they were one of the top 2-3 teams, even with the losses. They were stacked with talent.
For a point of reference six players from the '76 played in the NBA.
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Brother Galway:
You have to realize just how far we have fallen. For example, we are ranked 25th this week. Hats off to the team and to Coach Shaka for the accomplishment. They've worked hard and it's my view that we're building something that will be lasting. But, during Coach McGuire's tenure, a ranking of 20 (then the lowest ranked position) would have triggered major angst both locally and nationally.
During the 1970s, we were consistently a Top 10 and usually a Top 5 team. We were THAT good. We regularly had among the top recruiting classes in the nation. Had we not lost three of our very best players to the NBA at mostly odd times of the year -- Jim Chones, Maurice Lucas and Larry McNeill -- we probably would have multiple final four banners and at least one more NCAA Championship banner hanging in the FiServ. Had the NCAA been seeded then, we probably would have been a 1 seed every year from 1971 to 1978. At worst, we would have been a 2.
I get times have changed. Heck, North Carolina isn't in the Top 25 and Duke barely made it (one ahead of us). Talent has been more broadly distributed and more schools are good at college basketball. But we really had something special and the 40 years of crap comment was a function of comparing then to now. I'd argue the only years that were even close were 2003 and a few of the better Buzz years.
What I see as the difference between then and now is the fact that we've had a few very good teams, several good teams but nothing (with the exception of a few years under Buzz) that has been sustainable. We get really good and then fade quickly. With stability of coaching and Coach Shaka with us hopefully for the long haul, the sustainability that has eluded us may finally be gone!
It sounds like we agree more than we disagree, I absolutely realize and respect how great we were back then. I'm just sick of seeing that same tired line that pretty much makes it seem like we lost to Miami (OH) then in 40yr there was 1yr of Wade and nothing else since the present, that better describes Loyola Chicago's history than ours and that's cause for the frustration.
The bottom line is we had 6yrs being truly a notch above everything we've seen since but that doesn't mean there haven't been great teams since and it's also fair to point out Al didn't win a tournament game every year (75) so we logically can't discount modern great years where we had a great seed and were ranked all year but didn't make a sweet 16 (96, 02, 07-09, 19).
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Galway
I fully understand your point and also understand it is hard for you to understand what that era of MU basketball looked like. Like I see in another thread, I 100% hope that any pre Al fans gets to see 75% of what that era looked like. If it happens, you will understand and write about when you are as old as dirt.
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Galway
I fully understand your point and also understand it is hard for you to understand what that era of MU basketball looked like. Like I see in another thread, I 100% hope that any pre Al fans gets to see 75% of what that era looked like. If it happens, you will understand and write about when you are as old as dirt.
68-70 were pretty much matched based on avg rankings and tournament success during my time at MU, so that's 33% I've seen! not exactly the 33% of Al years I'd have personally picked but beggars can't be choosers
Here's to hoping we both get to live through a level that overshadows Al the way Jay overshadowed Rollie!
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Shooter
The '76 and '77 teams were loaded. I favor '76 over '77 but that is my opinion. '76 we entered the NCAA ranked #2, with one loss, but were put in the same region as undefeated Indiana and lost in the regional finals. '77 was a messed-up year, but IMO they were one of the top 2-3 teams, even with the losses. They were stacked with talent.
For a point of reference six players from the '76 played in the NBA.
I was born in 83 and I know a decent amount of history, but admittedly not enough on those teams from that era beyond what I see here.
If the 77 squad was so good, why the regular season losses and the near miss of the dance?
Follow up- I’m sure everyone is glad things ended up the way they did, but is that season then considered a major letdown with a loss early in the dance?
What happens to Al’s legacy in that case?
Am I right in remembering that he had announced he would step away from coaching prior to the postseason run or I’m making that up?
Thanks to all you young bucks for the info in advance
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I was born in 83 and I know a decent amount of history, but admittedly not enough on those teams from that era beyond what I see here.
If the 77 squad was so good, why the regular season losses and the near miss of the dance?
Follow up- I’m sure everyone is glad things ended up the way they did, but is that season then considered a major letdown with a loss early in the dance?
What happens to Al’s legacy in that case?
Am I right in remembering that he had announced he would step away from coaching prior to the postseason run or I’m making that up?
Thanks to all you young bucks for the info in advance
Al announced in December 1976 that he would finish the 1976-77 season and then walk away. That season was wild including I believe a 3 game home losing streak in February. There was plentiful booing on Senior Night. Everyone realized that the party that lasted nearly 10 years, was over. Imagine the range of emotion. On March 1, 1977 none of us thought they were even going to get a Tournament bid. On March 28, 1977 everyone was running down Wisconsin Avenue as National Champions..
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Do even UCLA fans talk about the 70's this much?
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My understanding is that there was never an invite and the discussion among the powers was there was no need to join any conference. Was the balance of my statement accurate?
Correct. There was never an invite. Joining a conference was never really discussed during my time. Program was elite at that time and unfortunately that clouded the vision of the future for many. Handing the baton to Hank without any serious search was the beginning of a most difficult swoon.
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Do even UCLA fans talk about the 70's this much?
Bill Walton does.
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Do even UCLA fans talk about the 70's this much?
To be fair, they don't need to. Winning National Championships was as common place for UCLA as peeing in the shower or farting in the bathtub is for the rest of us, hey?
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The bottom line is we had 6 yrs being truly a notch above everything we've seen since but that doesn't mean there haven't been great teams since and it's also fair to point out Al didn't win a tournament game every year (75) so we logically can't discount modern great years where we had a great seed and were ranked all year but didn't make a sweet 16 (96, 02, 07-09, 19).
Brother Galway:
Point of clarification. In 1975, we did not win a game in the NCAA, that's fact. But that was a very painful year that involved problems we haven't had since. As that year started, we were national runner-ups in the NCAA. After we finished second in 1974, with what we had returning plus what Al recruited, we were expected to be a favorite for national champions. Best line-up since Jim Chones left.
Then came the Maurice Lucas problem. It's been largely forgotten but it was the reason 1975 was disappointing.
Maurice Lucas was teetering between coming back and going pro. As September came, Mr. Lucas was drafted. Marquette was prepared to sue the NCAA and force them to allow Mr. Lucas to play when the Spirits of St. Louis, an ABA team, paid Mr. Lucas a buttload of money and late in September, Mr. Lucas turned pro.
We lost in the first round because we had no inside bruisers.
Our starting line-up with Mr. Lucas probably would have been Butch Lee and Lloyd Walton at Guards, Bo Ellis and Earl Tatum at forwards and Mr. Lucas at center. We'd have been unbeatable. When we brought in Jerome Whitehead with otherwise the same line-up in 1976, we almost were!
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dgies
We went from Lucas to Jerry Homan as a starting center in short order for the '75 season.
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Al was 22-30 in his first two years. He won 21 games or more each season for the rest of his career. 68-20 in years 3-5, and 179-27 (including 7 losses in his last season) for the rest of his term at MU. DOMINANCE. Second winningest program in the 70's to the all-time greatest college team ever - John Wooden's 70's UCLA Bruins.
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Genuinely sucks that it changed that quick. And I see things like that thrown out as defenses for why Al wasn't running a dynasty of final fours/championships and I buy into much of it.
But similarly I don't see many defenses from people from your era of 08/09 when Dom broke his foot or 04/05 when Travis went down & we were 13-1. I don't see people saying what we would've been in 13/14 if Vander hadn't left early or if McKay had stayed.
Point is people leaving early, getting injured, transferring, etc happens. It sucks, but why is it only defended for Al and every other era is just lumped into the years and years of mediocrity when there's genuinely some pretty huge "what ifs" in there.
Again I'm not saying we've been Al good but it'd be nice to see some old timers 1) Hold the same reverence for great teams regardless of era 2) defend season changing issues consistently.
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Genuinely sucks that it changed that quick. And I see things like that thrown out as defenses for why Al wasn't running a dynasty of final fours/championships and I buy into much of it.
But similarly I don't see many defenses from people from your era of 08/09 when Dom broke his foot or 04/05 when Travis went down & we were 13-1. I don't see people saying what we would've been in 13/14 if Vander hadn't left early or if McKay had stayed.
Point is people leaving early, getting injured, transferring, etc happens. It sucks, but why is it only defended for Al and every other era is just lumped into the years and years of mediocrity when there's genuinely some pretty huge "what ifs" in there.
Again I'm not saying we've been Al good but it'd be nice to see some old timers 1) Hold the same reverence for great teams regardless of era 2) defend season changing issues consistently.
Bwahahahaha
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Galway
There has plenty of very good basketball over the years and we saw the greatest player to wear a MU uniform in DWade. I loved the KO era, the Crean and Buzz era’s. The problem was sustainability and excitement. Every up period was followed by a downward period that seemed longer than the good times.
I will never dismiss the post Al era teams and they are part of the history. I have no problem if someone says any era was the best because it based that person’s experiences.
I cannot speak for anyone, but to me, the Shaka style of play, kids on the team and direction of the program puts the program in its place for long term success. Winning and winning big is awesome and hoping it happens under Shaka.