Rants and Raves

[muball]

mu ice I forgot his name but is a 6 7 rebounding forward who played Div 1 and is graduating. Is going to grad school and if MU has programs he wants that his existing school doesnt he would have 1 year of eligibility. He was friends with Junior and is from Canada. Supposed to be a strong post player, not sure but think he played in the south.

[MU_Iceman]

mu ice I forgot his name but is a 6 7 rebounding forward who played Div 1 and is graduating. Is going to grad school and if MU has programs he wants that his existing school doesnt he would have 1 year of eligibility. He was friends with Junior and is from Canada. Supposed to be a strong post player, not sure but think he played in the south.

Done...take a potential "energy guy" that can rebound and contribute / add some depth for one year then make a splash in 2012 with another pg and a big...

BAM!  The classes are evened out in terms of numbers and skill sets (if only it was that easy...haha)

Thanks for the info!

[Lennys Tap]

And who would Wade have been playing against in the fall before his ineligible freshman year?  Deane's holdovers, plus newcomers Blankson, Sanders and and Merritt?

I would expect Wade to be unstoppable in that environment--as would be most top 100 guards.  

When playing against comparable competition, he was 7th in Mr. Basketball voting in Illinois, and not among the top 100 players nationally per the RSCI.

Brian Wardle was a senior on his way to becoming the third leading scorer (at that time) in MU history when Wade arrived as a freshman at Marquette. Wade dominated Wardle from the day he arrived on campus. He also wowed the Bucks players he went up against in pick up games. He was easily the best player on campus the moment he arrived.

[NersEllenson]

It's a shame to watch MU alums continue to crap on Dwyane Wade for him feeling that TC was a wonderful coach and someone he still leans on to this day.  I find it rather sad watching MU alums do this like you just did.  Backhand attacks at Wade like that are really not necessary.  Essentially saying that Wade is a moron for not seeing things about TC the way YOU see them.  Pretty sad.

Sorry - Lenny never crapped on D-Wade in any of his posts...he crapped on Crean.  Could you find posts that "crap on D-Wade?"  You've taken me to task for my theory that D-Wade is THE Reason we made the Final Four in 2003.  You've crapped on D-Wade's performance in the Holy Cross game, and Missouri game.  You have tried to downplay Wade's value to the Final Four team in countless arguments with me.  When I pointed out the 2004 and 2005 teams with the exact same rosters except Wade and Robert Jackson couldn't even get out of the 2nd round of the NIT...you still were trying to argue the RJax had a lot to do with that MU team making the Final Four (and Diener and Novak - yet they couldn't even get MU to an NCAA tourney) in 2004 and 2005..

Just sayin'

[Lennys Tap]

It's a shame to watch MU alums continue to crap on Dwyane Wade for him feeling that TC was a wonderful coach and someone he still leans on to this day.  I find it rather sad watching MU alums do this like you just did.  Backhand attacks at Wade like that are really not necessary.  Essentially saying that Wade is a moron for not seeing things about TC the way YOU see them.  Pretty sad.

The only thing that's "pretty sad" is what a total misrepresentation this is of anything I said. I never "crapped on Wade" or "essentially called him a moron" for not seeing through TC. Crean's not a dumb guy - he knew early in the game that DWade would be his meal ticket and he has a pretty solid record of ingratiating himself to those who can help him - just as he has a well earned reputation for abusing those who can't. So it's not on Wade no matter how hard you want to twist it. It's on TC and always was.

[Marquette84]

Brian Wardle was a senior on his way to becoming the third leading scorer (at that time) in MU history when Wade arrived as a freshman at Marquette. Wade dominated Wardle from the day he arrived on campus. He also wowed the Bucks players he went up against in pick up games. He was easily the best player on campus the moment he arrived.

Yep--you're absolutely right. And at the time Wade was considered the 7th best player in Illinois, and not one of the top 100 nationally.

Keep in mind that Deane was fired largely because of his insufficient recruiting.  It doesn't surprise me in the least that one of Crean's first recruits would dominate Deane's holdovers and be easily the best player on campus.

Sorry - Lenny never crapped on D-Wade in any of his posts...he crapped on Crean.  Could you find posts that "crap on D-Wade?"  

Just sayin'

Wade gives Crean credit for making him a better player.  

For all intents and purposes, Lenny says Wade is a liar for saying Crean helped him improve.
Either that, or he thinks Wade is stupid for believing that Crean helped him.

Either way, he's crapping on Wade.  Just sayin'

[Lennys Tap]

Wade gives Crean credit for making him a better player.  

For all intents and purposes, Lenny says Wade is a liar for saying Crean helped him improve.
Either that, or he thinks Wade is stupid for believing that Crean helped him.

Either way, he's crapping on Wade.  Just sayin'

Number one, I never said Wade didn't improve while at MU, only that he was a stud (far better than the 7th best high school senior in Illinois) when he got here and was NBA bound no matter who was the coach. Crean was the coach, so I'm okay with him getting some credit. So I never called Wade a liar or stupid or crapped on him in any way.

I will, however, assess those qualities to anyone who intentionally misrepresents what I did say. If the shoe fits... Just sayin'.

[NersEllenson]

Yep--you're absolutely right. And at the time Wade was considered the 7th best player in Illinois, and not one of the top 100 nationally.

Keep in mind that Deane was fired largely because of his insufficient recruiting.  It doesn't surprise me in the least that one of Crean's first recruits would dominate Deane's holdovers and be easily the best player on campus.

Wade gives Crean credit for making him a better player.  

For all intents and purposes, Lenny says Wade is a liar for saying Crean helped him improve.
Either that, or he thinks Wade is stupid for believing that Crean helped him.

Either way, he's crapping on Wade.  Just sayin'

84 - I don't have any kind of hatred for  Crean..really don't...I do appreciate what he got done at MU.  The reality is, however, that in 11 years now as a Division 1 head coach - Tom Crean has won 1 NCAA tourney game, without having an all-world player the caliber of D-Wade.  Crean helped Wade become a better player...but D-Wade has helped Crean a heck of a lot more.  Crean rides Wade's jock...he's no idiot...d-Wade is a great recruiting/publicity tool.  Wade likes TC - and that shouldn't surprise anyone...as TC was, after all, D-Wade's college basketball coach.  Rarely does a head coach have a bad relationship with a star, unselfish, team oriented player..

[Marquette84]

Number one, I never said Wade didn't improve while at MU,

I didn't say you did.  

I said you don't give Crean as much credit for Wade's improvement that Wade himself does.

only that he was a stud (far better than the 7th best high school senior in Illinois)

Based on what?  Seeing Wade against a bunch of Deane-era recruits?

Find me those 1999-2000 newspaper articles that say that Wade was better than Darius Miles.  Better than TJ Cummings.  Better than Imari Sawyer.  Better than Cedric Banks.

Sorry, but but compared to other Illinois HS players that year he was not among the elites in the state.

when he got here and was NBA bound no matter who was the coach. Crean was the coach, so I'm okay with him getting some credit.

But that's not what Wade says, is it?.  

Wade specifically credits Crean for helping him develop.

So I never called Wade a liar or stupid or crapped on him in any way.

And yet you don't agree with Wade with respect to Crean's development of Wade.

You've made it abundantly clear you think you're right and Wade is wrong.

In your opinion, do you think Wade knows--despite his statements to the contrary--that Crean didn't do all that much to help him develop?  

Or do you think that he doesn't really realize that Crean didn't do anything special--that any other coach would have done just as much to develop Wade?

[El Duderino]

I didn't say you did.  

I said you don't give Crean as much credit for Wade's improvement that Wade himself does.

Based on what?  Seeing Wade against a bunch of Deane-era recruits?

Find me those 1999-2000 newspaper articles that say that Wade was better than Darius Miles.  Better than TJ Cummings.  Better than Imari Sawyer.  Better than Cedric Banks.

Sorry, but but compared to other Illinois HS players that year he was not among the elites in the state.

The people doing those rankings of Illinois players were obviously very very wrong about Wade, just as they often are about countless other players.

I'm sure Crean helped make Wade become a better player than the high school kid who arrived on campus. Pretty much every college coach makes a kid who arrives on campus a better player. They'd have to be an absolutely brutal coach to not be able to make a high school kid become better and Tom Crean obviously wasn't a brutal basketball coach.

That said, you're continuing to bring up that Wade was only ranked as the 7th best player in Illinois as some argument for how much Crean developed Wade into the stud he is strikes me as a quite shallow argument. If those rankings about Wade weren't so badly wrong and instead it was the role of Crean's coaching which was so vital in developing Wade into a star, why hasn't Crean been able to do the same thing with other recruits of his, including guys who were ranked higher as recruits? Crean had magic developing skills with Wade that he just couldn't muster up with on other similarly rated recruits or even higher rated ones?

The real answer is obvious. Recruit ranking is far from an exact science and those doing it sometimes aren't just wrong about certain kids, they are very wrong. That's why not every kid in the NBA was a top 25 recruit. Those ranking Wade obviously whiffed badly.

As i said earlier, i'm quite sure Crean helped Wade get better, he didn't turn a mediocre talent into a star though. Far from it. Most coaches in college ball would have to have been incompetent to screw up the talent of Wade so that he wouldn't have been special. Talent like Wade possesses is rare. Extremely rare. The type of talent that no coach who has ever lived can coach into a player. If Crean could, he'd repeat it, but he can't because it can't be done.

The point of where Wade was ranked by high school recruiting analysts is irrelevant.

[Marquette84]

The people doing those rankings of Illinois players were obviously very very wrong about Wade, just as they often are about countless other players.

On what basis do you claim that the rankings were wrong?

Yes, i know it conveniently closes the hole in your argument--that Wade was ALREADY better--but can you honestly say that you saw both Wade and players like Darius Miles or Cedric Banks or Imari Sawyer and can honestly claim that you know for a fact that Wade was already a better player with more potential than all of them?

For example, Cedric Banks was picked ahead of Wade as the Chicago Sun Times player of the year.  Taylor Bell knows a thing or two about HS basketball.  Are you questioning his ability to compare two players?

Everyone in the world thought Imari Sawyer was better than Wade at the time.  The difference is that Sawyer didn't get the same quality coaching that Sawyer did.

Darius Miles was the #3 pick in the NBA draft out of HS.  If Wade were just as good, why risk injury over the course of 3 seasons, and give up three years of an NBA paycheck? 

I'm sure Crean helped make Wade become a better player than the high school kid who arrived on campus. Pretty much every college coach makes a kid who arrives on campus a better player. They'd have to be an absolutely brutal coach to not be able to make a high school kid become better and Tom Crean obviously wasn't a brutal basketball coach.

So I'll pose you the same question I asked lenny.

Wade thinks Crean did do something special to develop him.  You obviously disagree.

So do you think Wade is lying about how much Crean helped him develop? 

Or do you think that Wade is just not smart enough to realize that Crean didn't do anything that Jimmy Collins or Pat Kennedy would have done had he picked UIC or DePaul?

That said, you're continuing to bring up that Wade was only ranked as the 7th best player in Illinois as some argument for how much Crean developed Wade into the stud he is strikes me as a quite shallow argument. If those rankings about Wade weren't so badly wrong and instead it was the role of Crean's coaching which was so vital in developing Wade into a star, why hasn't Crean been able to do the same thing with other recruits of his, including guys who were ranked higher as recruits? Crean had magic developing skills with Wade that he just couldn't muster up with on other similarly rated recruits or even higher rated ones?

Probably for the same reason that Buzz didn't do for Roseboro what he did for Butler.

If your standard is that a coach must develop every player equally in order to get credit for developing any of them, then no MU coach has ever developed a player above where they would have wound up. 

The real answer is obvious. Recruit ranking is far from an exact science and those doing it sometimes aren't just wrong about certain kids, they are very wrong. That's why not every kid in the NBA was a top 25 recruit. Those ranking Wade obviously whiffed badly.

Is it your view that those same rankings whiffed badly on Butler? 

Are you prepared to strip Buzz of most of the credit for developing Butler? 

Are you ready to substitute the same faint praise that, sure, while Buzz coached him, Buzz wasn't absolutely brutal, therefore Butler developed into the exact same player he would have regardless of who his coach was?

[Lennys Tap]

84, you are the absolute, undisputed world champion of twisting, misrepresenting and intentionally misinterpreting people's statements into one BIG LIE. I say that I give Tom Crean SOME credit for Wade's development. You claim that Wade gives him more credit than that. You offer no evidence that this is true, but for the sake of argument let's assume you're right. Then you draw the conclusion that if I don't give Tom Crean the same amount of credit for Wade's development that Dwyane does I'm calling DWade a liar, a moron, or both. Honestly, how do you come up with this sh*t? Time for me to join the growing list of people intent on maintaining their sanity by placing you on ignore.

[ATL MU Warrior]

84, you are the absolute, undisputed world champion of twisting, misrepresenting and intentionally misinterpreting people's statements into one BIG LIE. I say that I give Tom Crean SOME credit for Wade's development. You claim that Wade gives him more credit than that. You offer no evidence that this is true, but for the sake of argument let's assume you're right. Then you draw the conclusion that if I don't give Tom Crean the same amount of credit for Wade's development that Dwyane does I'm calling DWade a liar, a moron, or both. Honestly, how do you come up with this sh*t? Time for me to join the growing list of people intent on maintaining their sanity by placing you on ignore.

Good move.  What took you so long?

[tower912]

84, you are the absolute, undisputed world champion of twisting, misrepresenting and intentionally misinterpreting people's statements into one BIG LIE. I say that I give Tom Crean SOME credit for Wade's development. You claim that Wade gives him more credit than that. You offer no evidence that this is true, but for the sake of argument let's assume you're right. Then you draw the conclusion that if I don't give Tom Crean the same amount of credit for Wade's development that Dwyane does I'm calling DWade a liar, a moron, or both. Honestly, how do you come up with this sh*t? Time for me to join the growing list of people intent on maintaining their sanity by placing you on ignore.

Oh, does he still post here?   I've had him on ignore so long......

[bilsu]

I think coaches provide the opportunity and the instruction for players to develop. However, player development comes from their own attitutude to accepting instruction and the player's own hard work. A player that will not listen or work hard does not develop into the best he can be.  The coaches style (game plan) also helps or hinders a player's development. MU is a guard's program. More so under Crean than Buzz, because Crean lets the guards dominate the ball with the dribble. Buzz's offense relies more on using all players, which was much better for Matthews and Hayward to display their talents. I think a player's improvement is directly related to how hard they work. Every player has a ceiling. Wade is close to his, Blue is not. Whether Blue approaches his ceiling depends on Blue, not on Buzz.

[Marquette84]

84, you are the absolute, undisputed world champion of twisting, misrepresenting and intentionally misinterpreting people's statements into one BIG LIE.

What specifically have I misrepresented or twisted here?  What "BIG LIE" have I made?  I'm amazed at your ability to feign outrage. YOU are the one who claims that Crean did nothing special to develop Wade.  Wade says otherwise.

As I see it, there are 3 and only 3 possible ways that explain why you and Wade differ so much on Crean's role in Wade's development.  And I'm not saying which of these is what you personally think--but it has to be some version of one of these:
 
1.  You don't understand how much Crean did for Wade and are wrong to downplay Crean's role
2.  You think Wade publicly says Crean was instrumental, but in private thinks otherwise.  (i.e. its a lie)
3.  You think that Wade is not as smart as you (i.e., he too stupid) to see that any other coach could have done what Crean did, therefore Wade shouldn't give Crean such credit.

So my question to you:  which of these explains the difference?

I say that I give Tom Crean SOME credit for Wade's development.

No, you really don't.  You want to make it sound like you give him credit.  But you take it away with the statement that he "was NBA bound no matter who was the coach."
 

Then you draw the conclusion that if I don't give Tom Crean the same amount of credit for Wade's development that Dwyane does I'm calling DWade a liar, a moron, or both.

You either think Wade is wrong (i.e. too stupid to know Crean didn't do anything special) or that Wade is exaggerating Crean's role (i.e. he's lying about it). 

I realize that you don't like the strong wording I used.  But lets be honest--you're not mad at me because I'm wrong.  You're made because I won't sugarcoat the words.

[Marquette84]

Oh, does he still post here?   I've had him on ignore so long......

I'm sorry to lose you.  You always seemed like they kind of guy who can disagree but not take it personally and move on.  Was I wrong?
 
In any event, I'll channel Al . . . I'll post with you, or I'll post without you.

Either way, have a great day!

[Marquette84]

Good move.  What took you so long?

ATL MU, I invite you back as well.  

I'm willing to forgive you for getting personal ("beyond help" and "beyond pathetic") and chalk it up to you just having a bad da that day.

I'm happy to engage in debate, and more than willing to move and argue another day if we choose to disagree--nothing personal.  I'll post with you, or without you.

Either way, have a great day!
  

[Pakuni]

Nobody who saw Dwyane Wade play his senior year believed he was by then the 7th best player in Illinois.
These rankings are largely set by performance during the summer and in all-star camps, and before a kid's senior year. Wade not only was a late bloomer, but he wasn't invited to those all-star camps and he played on an absolutely loaded summer league team, limiting his opportunities.
Those who saw Wade play as a senior - like the Bullseye Brothers - did not consider him the 7th best player in Illinois.

What's funny here is nobody is claiming Tom Crean didn't aide in the development of Dwyane Wade, so this is essentially an argument over nothing.
The only debateable point is whether Crean did something unique to develop Wade that would not have occurred elsewhere. Given Crean's record of player development over 12 years as a head coach, the answer seems obvious. As Duderino ably pointed out, if Crean did something special with Wade, why hasn't he been able to repeat it with any player over his coaching career?

[El Duderino]

On what basis do you claim that the rankings were wrong?

Is it really that hard for you to not grasp?

Wade is one of the best basketball players on the planet. A true NBA superstar. An incredible athlete mixed with elite basketball instincts. Skills that can't be coached into a player. If all it took was trying hard and good coaching for a player to become a superstar like Wade is and has been for awhile, the world would be full of Dwayne Wade's. That obviously isn't the case.

There can be a myriad of reasons as to why recruiting analysts are often so badly wrong about how good of a college prospect that high school kids are. They obviously whiffed badly on how talented Wade was as evidenced by just how great he was from the minute he became eligible. His special gifts were evident to anyone watching from the get go, the same way other special talents show their greatness right away.

For example, Cedric Banks was picked ahead of Wade as the Chicago Sun Times player of the year.  Taylor Bell knows a thing or two about HS basketball.  Are you questioning his ability to compare two players?

I'm not questioning that he is competent at doing his job, but evaluating talent is far from an exact science. Guys are badly wrong all the time as he was about Wade. Hell, Ted Thompson is arguably the best GM in the NFL. He spends countless hours doing nothing except evaluating college football talent, yet he's whiffed badly on numerous draft picks. John Hammond watched countless hours of Joe Alexander play and thought he'd be a great pro. Used a lottery pick on Alexander and he was a massive bust. This happens all the time and i'm quite sure Bell would admit that he was badly wrong about just how talented Wade was at the time.

Everyone in the world thought Imari Sawyer was better than Wade at the time.  The difference is that Sawyer didn't get the same quality coaching that Sawyer did.

And every last one of them were wrong. If you are naive enough to believe that all Sawyer needed to do was play under Tom Crean and bam, he'd have become a superstar like Wade or that Wade wouldn't have become special under a ton of other college coaches, you don't understand basketball well.

So do you think Wade is lying about how much Crean helped him develop?

Or do you think that Wade is just not smart enough to realize that Crean didn't do anything that Jimmy Collins or Pat Kennedy would have done had he picked UIC or DePaul?

Of course Wade thinks Crean helped him develop given that Crean did help Dwayne get better. Crean has helped plenty of other recruits of his become  better players than what they were when arriving on campus. As has Buzz and countless other college coaches. The reason though that only Wade became a truly special player under Crean is so painfully obvious, only Wade was an extremely rare talent or else Crean would have done the same with other players under him. Hello. And yes, i think Wade would have been a star if say Pat Kennedy coached him. All Wade mainly needed was the motivation and desire to push himself so as to let out his bounty of natural gifts. I do credit Crean though for pushing Wade hard.

Is it your view that those same rankings whiffed badly on Butler?

Are you prepared to strip Buzz of most of the credit for developing Butler?

Are you ready to substitute the same faint praise that, sure, while Buzz coached him, Buzz wasn't absolutely brutal, therefore Butler developed into the exact same player he would have regardless of who his coach was?

Yes the recruiting ranks whiffed on Butler, not nearly as badly as with Wade though.

Yes Buzz deserves some credit for Butler becoming the player he has, but Jimmy deserves most of the credit. He's a pretty gifted athlete with above average basketball instincts. What Buzz deserves most credit for is how hard he pushed Jimmy to get the most out of his abilities, as i'm sure Crean did with Wade. The big difference though being very obvious, Dwayne Wade is vastly vastly more talented as a basketball player than Butler could ever dream of being, regardless of what some recruiting analysts said about Wade when he was 17 .

FWIW, i don't hate Crean as other here do. I never discredit what he did for the MU program. He got us to a Final Four and his success is a sizable reason IMO that the Big East accepted in Marquette. I do hate how he left, but that doesn't make me ignore the many positive things he did for the program. When it comes to Wade though, i just think the main thing Crean accomplished was simply signing Dwayne to play at Marquette and that's no minor accomplishment. And push Wade hard to use his massive set of gifts. I don't buy though that Crean was essential in developing Wade, he showed quickly on the court just how gifted he is. The majority of coaches could have coached Wade and he'd have been as special except maybe for a weak type of coach who deferred to much to a talent like Wade vs pushing him hard.

[Pakuni]

Everyone in the world thought Imari Sawyer was better than Wade at the time.  The difference is that Sawyer didn't get the same quality coaching that Sawyer did.

Everyone in the world thought DeShawn Stevenson was better than Wade at the time. The difference is that Stevenson went to the NBA, where he played under some bum named Jerry Sloan and didn't get the same quality coaching that Wade did.

Everyone in the world thought Chris Duhon was better than Wade at the time. The difference is that Duhon went to Duke, where he didn't get the same quality coaching that Wade did.

Everyone in the world thought Marcus Taylor was better than Wade at the time. The difference is that Taylor went to Michigan State, where he didn't get the same quality coaching that Wade did.

This is fun.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Brian Wardle was a senior on his way to becoming the third leading scorer (at that time) in MU history when Wade arrived as a freshman at Marquette. Wade dominated Wardle from the day he arrived on campus. He also wowed the Bucks players he went up against in pick up games. He was easily the best player on campus the moment he arrived.

Wardle was known for his defensive ability?  I thought him to be a tough kid, decent defender and nice shooter, but I don't think Wardle would have stopped DJO, Wes Matthews or McNeal either.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Sorry - Lenny never crapped on D-Wade in any of his posts...he crapped on Crean.  Could you find posts that "crap on D-Wade?"  You've taken me to task for my theory that D-Wade is THE Reason we made the Final Four in 2003.  You've crapped on D-Wade's performance in the Holy Cross game, and Missouri game.  You have tried to downplay Wade's value to the Final Four team in countless arguments with me.  When I pointed out the 2004 and 2005 teams with the exact same rosters except Wade and Robert Jackson couldn't even get out of the 2nd round of the NIT...you still were trying to argue the RJax had a lot to do with that MU team making the Final Four (and Diener and Novak - yet they couldn't even get MU to an NCAA tourney) in 2004 and 2005..

Just sayin'

Sure he did if you view it the same way some of you guys view things...when you guys like to play doctor \ psychologist (note a psychologist is not a doctor for those of you new to this game) this is a slam dunk. 

We get it, Lenny thinks very very little of Crean as a head coach and has said so many many times.  He's Wagneresque was just the latest. 

Wade, one of the greatest players on the planet, doesn't think that way.  Wade actually was COACHED by this particular man, where Lenny was never coached by him, yet Lenny's opinion on this is correct.  Does make you chuckle, doesn't?

Nevertheless, I can only conclude that Lenny must think Wade a moron for thinking the way he does about Crean.  Lenny has had little trouble in the past here declaring how stupid or completely out to lunch someone is for having their opinion (happy to provide examples) that don't agree with his.  So if other people here are morons when their conclusions don't measure up with Lenny's, seems only obvious that Wade must also be a moron since he has a different opinion of TC than Lenny does (despite Lenny playing zero seconds in his life for TC while Wade played\practiced 3 years for him and to this stay is still involved with him).

Or maybe Lenny got dissed at Turners or his grandson didn't get camper of the week.  Who knows.  I just find it somewhat hard to square the opinions of one of the best players ever has one opinion about a coach and actually PLAYED FOR HIM vs someone who played not a second in his life for this coach.  But hey, if TC is fired at IU then maybe Wade can recommend Lenny.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The only debateable point is whether Crean did something unique to develop Wade that would not have occurred elsewhere. Given Crean's record of player development over 12 years as a head coach, the answer seems obvious. As Duderino ably pointed out, if Crean did something special with Wade, why hasn't he been able to repeat it with any player over his coaching career?

For clarity, are you or Duderino saying no other player under Crean developed or no one developed to the level of Wade? 

If it's the former, that is beyond silly.  Diener was not a NBA player when he arrived on campus.  Neither was Wesley Matthews, neither was Steve Novak.  Plenty of other players improved as well.

If it's the latter, well that is a bit silly but not beyond silly. 

What seems to be the argument here from some people is this:

Crean can't coach, can't make players better, anyone that got better was done by their own God given skills...or something to that effect.  I'm sure Lenny will say, "I said he helped them some'...ok, so Crean can barely do these things.

Buzz, meanwhile, can coach, can make players better and is the primary reason they get better, not their own motivation, skills, maturity, practice, etc.

If I have it wrong, by all means tell me, but I'll be happy to provide examples that layout very well what I've just summed up.  People here have two standards for two different coaches.

[GGGG]

So this is what it has come to...arguing over what %age of Wade's current success is due to his natural ability versus Crean's coaching.

I mean...really???