MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: nyg on November 07, 2017, 03:40:25 PM
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http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21331147/ucla-players-liangelo-ball-cody-riley-jalen-hill-arrested-china-shoplifting
Wonder what a jail cell in China is like and how is Daddy gonna spin this.
Very bad publicity for UCLA.
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https://www.youtube.com/v/_asNhzXq72w
Look on the bright side, LaVar... at least your kid won't be repatriated in a coma. At least, not likely. Hopefully the mfg of your shoe line has some pull with the gov't.
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It would have been pretty funny if Ball was stealing Nikes.
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This isn't going to work out too well for those kids.
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So was he stealing to be cool or did Lavar decide he wouldn’t give his non 5star recruit son any money from the millions in shoe sales
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So was he stealing to be cool or did Lavar decide he wouldn’t give his non 5star recruit son any money from the millions in shoe sales
Liangelo ain't a five star recruit, he may not even be a four star. But, point remains the same not a good look for Lavar, and that makes me warm and fuzzy inside.
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Liangelo ain't a five star recruit, he may not even be a four star. But, point remains the same not a good look for Lavar, and that makes me warm and fuzzy inside.
I think that's why he said "non 5 star recruit" ;)
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Liangelo ain't a five star recruit, he may not even be a four star. But, point remains the same not a good look for Lavar, and that makes me warm and fuzzy inside.
It’s a good thing you’re the journalist and not the editor ;)
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I think that's why he said "non 5 star recruit" ;)
Reading is hard.
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UCLA already leading the nation in steals.
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UCLA already leading the nation in steals.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SlushySimplisticAracari-max-1mb.gif)
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UCLA already leading the nation in steals.
Mom wins the internet today!
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UCLA already leading the nation in steals.
You Are Worthy.
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UCLA already leading the nation in steals.
;D
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Superbar.
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UCLA already leading the nation in steals.
Well played, mom.
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If only these kids were paid they could get life's basic needs like Louis Vuitton swag.
Not a joke, a handful of enlightened saying this already this afternoon. Merica.
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Still very preliminary obviously, but they could be facing 3-10 years in prison.
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As a foreigner living in China for the past 5 years, this really pisses me off.
Now I'm unsure of what the minimum to maximum sentence is on shoplifting, but if we're talking Louis Vuitton, we're talking thousands of dollars worth of goods. In a country of 1.3 billion people, the government doesn't joke around to keep the order. I've never personally heard of any foreigner shoplifting before and for good reason!
If these kids are lucky, they will get the minimum sentence (3 years?). However, I have a feeling that some people who think they're more important than they are will meddle which could easily result in maximum sentences (10 years?). If this is deemed a high profile case, the Chinese government will absolutely NOT go soft on these idiots. Millions in bribes aren't worth the blowback by going soft and the government knows this all too well. In other words, that Ball kid is certainly screwed.
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As a foreigner living in China for the past 5 years, this really pisses me off.
Now I'm unsure of what the minimum to maximum sentence is on shoplifting, but if we're talking Louis Vuitton, we're talking thousands of dollars worth of goods. In a country of 1.3 billion people, the government doesn't joke around to keep the order. I've never personally heard of any foreigner shoplifting before and for good reason!
If these kids are lucky, they will get the minimum sentence (3 years?). However, I have a feeling that some people who think they're more important than they are will meddle which could easily result in maximum sentences (10 years?). If this is deemed a high profile case, the Chinese government will absolutely NOT go soft on these idiots. Millions in bribes aren't worth the blowback by going soft and the government knows this all too well. In other words, that Ball kid is certainly screwed.
Thanks for the insight, this would be fantastic news.
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As a foreigner living in China for the past 5 years, this really pisses me off.
Now I'm unsure of what the minimum to maximum sentence is on shoplifting, but if we're talking Louis Vuitton, we're talking thousands of dollars worth of goods. In a country of 1.3 billion people, the government doesn't joke around to keep the order. I've never personally heard of any foreigner shoplifting before and for good reason!
If these kids are lucky, they will get the minimum sentence (3 years?). However, I have a feeling that some people who think they're more important than they are will meddle which could easily result in maximum sentences (10 years?). If this is deemed a high profile case, the Chinese government will absolutely NOT go soft on these idiots. Millions in bribes aren't worth the blowback by going soft and the government knows this all too well. In other words, that Ball kid is certainly screwed.
Maybe you're right, but I believe that the high profile nature of this matter wil lead to something far less then the minimum sentence being enforced. It could lead to UCLA and Georgia Tech leaving without playing the game - not in protest, but in the interest of protecting the schools from liability should another player run afoul of the law. These kids serving a regular sentence would certainly kill any future NCAA games in China, and maybe pro games, too. There would be some international blowback over the harshness of the sentence hurting tourism, and potentially accusations of bigotry on the part of the Chinese Government.
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Thanks for the insight, this would be fantastic news.
Fantastic news? Do you want three, admittedly very dumb, college freshmen to be locked up for a minimum of three years each in a prison in a third world foreign country where they don't speak the language? That's harsh.
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Tough situation for these young men. They need to get Trump on their side to make the deal to get out. Otherwise they are in for a world of hurt.
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Maybe you're right, but I believe that the high profile nature of this matter wil lead to something far less then the minimum sentence being enforced. It could lead to UCLA and Georgia Tech leaving without playing the game - not in protest, but in the interest of protecting the schools from liability should another player run afoul of the law. These kids serving a regular sentence would certainly kill any future NCAA games in China, and maybe pro games, too. There would be some international blowback over the harshness of the sentence hurting tourism, and potentially accusations of bigotry on the part of the Chinese Government.
Really? Now if they did the crime and the legal proceeding isn't a farce shouldn't they face an appropriate penalty as determined by local custom and law? It's not like this is some Title IX case here that TAMU can decide. They're not political prisoners. They're alleged criminals. While I can conceive that 'something' might be worked out, these clowns are in for a world of hurt.
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Fantastic news? Do you want three, admittedly very dumb, college freshmen to be locked up for a minimum of three years each in a prison in a third world foreign country where they don't speak the language? That's harsh.
China is not a third world country. But what is your point here? College kids shouldn’t be held accountable? That not speaking the language makes it too harsh of a punishment?
If this were an 18/19yr old drop out nobody would bat an eye
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Easy, deport them!
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2 kind of opposing thoughts. But not really.
These guys are men not boys. We’re missing something of respect for people and property in our culture for young men growing up and there’s an extra helping of it for some athletes ( although I do like when coaches try to get their players involved in good societal stuff like hunger task force and visiting sick...). This will be a hard lesson.
My brother lived in China for a couple years as an independent citizen. China has a lot of severe injustice built into their system. Harsh, uneven sentencing. Reform by fear ( although fear is legit sometimes). When politics or religion concerned, lack of justice pronounced. These guy will either get off after a few weeks (politics) with some quid-pro-quo from the US govt (or visit from obama) OR they will be there for a year or more. Chinese authorities also have some built in bias against African folk.
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Tough situation for these young men. They need to get Trump on their side to make the deal to get out. Otherwise they are in for a world of hurt.
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
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Fantastic news? Do you want three, admittedly very dumb, college freshmen to be locked up for a minimum of three years each in a prison in a third world foreign country where they don't speak the language? That's harsh.
Yes, they deserved to be treated as any other human that shoplifted in China.
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Unrelated:
These kids might get 3-10 years.
Yet Chinese and Asian tourists come to America and 1) poop in public and into the gysers/pools of Yellowstone and get nothing.
2) knock over millions of year old stalagmites in caves and get nothing.
america needs to step up their foreign tourist prosecution game a bit.
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Yet Chinese and Asian tourists come to America and 1) poop in public and into the gysers/pools of Yellowstone and get nothing.
2) knock over millions of year old stalagmites in caves and get nothing.
What happens to Americans who do that?
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Chinese authorities also have some built in bias against African folk.
UCLA has a recruiting pipeline to Africa? I thought these were US kids
Unrelated:
These kids might get 3-10 years.
Yet Chinese and Asian tourists come to America and 1) poop in public and into the gysers/pools of Yellowstone and get nothing.
2) knock over millions of year old stalagmites in caves and get nothing.
america needs to step up their foreign tourist prosecution game a bit.
teal?
also - in before the lock
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Really? Now if they did the crime and the legal proceeding isn't a farce shouldn't they face an appropriate penalty as determined by local custom and law? It's not like this is some Title IX case here that TAMU can decide. They're not political prisoners. They're alleged criminals. While I can conceive that 'something' might be worked out, these clowns are in for a world of hurt.
"While I can conceive that 'something' might be worked out"
Based on you saying the above, you mostly agree with my post you quoted. Our main difference is that I'm happy with these kids getting a scare put into them and learning a lesson while you seem to need for these young men to suffer mightily.
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The 3 were released and ordered not to leave their hotel for the time being.
Probably lucky for them Trump is already there.
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What happens to Americans who do that?
I'm not making this a race thing at all, just wish the US would step up their game with regards to outside tourists. Like turkey's governmental employees come to NYC and D.C. And beat Americans up and are not prosectured. That's crap.
As for Americans as you asked:
They are charged with 3rd degree felonies.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/31/us/utah-boulder-boy-scouts/index.html
http://heavy.com/news/2017/08/asian-thai-tourists-fairy-falls-trailhead-firehole-river-geothermal-feature-destroys-walk-on-youtube-video/
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I'm not making this a race thing at all, just wish the US would step up their game with regards to outside tourists. Like turkey's governmental employees come to NYC and D.C. And beat Americans up and are not prosectured. That's crap.
As for Americans as you asked:
They are charged with 3rd degree felonies.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/31/us/utah-boulder-boy-scouts/index.html
http://heavy.com/news/2017/08/asian-thai-tourists-fairy-falls-trailhead-firehole-river-geothermal-feature-destroys-walk-on-youtube-video/
I wasn't implying you were making it a race thing. I really wanted to know.
And my guess the Turkish thing has to do with diplomatic immunity. I agree that a lot of that is a load of crap.
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The 3 were released and ordered not to leave their hotel for the time being.
Probably lucky for them Trump is already there.
I know you tealed this comment, but actually it might work out very well for them that Trump is there right now.
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Fantastic news? Do you want three, admittedly very dumb, college freshmen to be locked up for a minimum of three years each in a prison in a third world foreign country where they don't speak the language? That's harsh.
China is a 3rd world country? Under what definition?
If these guys did this in Singapore how many cane lashings would they get? If this was in some Middle Eastern countries, they potentially could lose a digit or hand.
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China is not a third world country. But what is your point here? College kids shouldn’t be held accountable? That not speaking the language makes it too harsh of a punishment?
If this were an 18/19yr old drop out nobody would bat an eye
You are correct that China is not a third world country, but I'll just put the following out there and let everyone decide for themselves if their prisions are comparable. Maybe reading this you will get my point. God, I hope you can.
In the middle of the night the PSB took me to White Cloud District Detention Center in the city of Guangzhou, where I would spend the next 280 days. I was in shock and denial as I was processed and then taken down a long dank corridor to my cell. Opening the corridor door to cell B218 revealed an empty, moldy room the size of a racquetball court. As I was pushed inside I was full of terror. The corridor door closed and a side door to the “inner cell” opened, with native Chinese prisoners motioning me inward to the sleeping and working quarters.
The inner cell was the same size but held 30 prisoners, all sleeping on the concrete floor. There were no blankets or pillows and the room was so crowded that most prisoners slept on their sides with arms draped over each other like embracing couples. Near the back was an older prisoner indicating he was making room for me to lie down. Dazed and confused, I crossed the cell like a cat, careful not to step on the heads, arms or bodies of other prisoners. My concussion and the long day of coercive interrogation had left me exhausted and I lay down to sleep.
In Chinese jails, prisoners begin working on their first day of detention regardless of the circumstances. The right of having a phone call upon arrest is unheard of, and most have no contact with the outside world throughout the entire time they are incarcerated. Many are jailed for months without ever being formally charged, then released without going to trial.
Each day at 6:30 a.m. the cell leader woke everyone by clapping his hands to begin another routine day. Thirty men lined up to brush their teeth while simultaneously using a single hole in the ground as our only toilet. After washing and using the toilet, prisoners arranged themselves in rows sitting cross-legged to chant communist slogans and recite detention regulations. Once the chanting was complete, prisoners would stand for an hour of military-style marching in place. Any who didn’t enthusiastically chant or march briskly received beatings or various other types of punishment.
Each cell was run by a gang who pushed work production through a series of rewards and punishments. While there was one leader, he surrounded himself with what we called “the lieutenants” – forming what we called “the regime.” After work quotas were issued, prisoners would line the wall to assemble Christmas lights all day with two ten-minute breaks for lunch at 11:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m. for dinner. No uniforms were issued, so most prisoners sat in their underwear. Later, in the shower, I noticed many prisoners had bedsores from long hours sitting on the concrete floor.
Due to my mental state, shock and the dim lighting, I was unable to do even the simplest work tasks. As a foreigner and due to the language barrier, the leader gave me a little slack, but for native prisoners anything short of the 6,000-light quota per day would promptly be met with punishment.
On my second day, our cell guard came to check on me. When any prison official visited, prisoners would squat on their heels and lock their hands behind their heads in a non-threatening position we called “the squat-n-lock.” Noting my poor condition, the guard stated he would take me to the infirmary, but it was three days before he returned to our cell. Sometimes we wouldn’t see a guard for 4-5 days, leaving us under the total control of the leader and his “regime.”
During the workday the regime would stroll around shouting “Kuai-dian” (“faster”). Anything from slow work production to a “wrong look” would bring a slap to the head or kick to the ribs. If slow production persisted or a prisoner back-talked, the regime would bring them to the front of the cell for a series of kicks, blows and punches.
The most common punishment was withholding the daily ration of two hand-rolled cigarettes. If that didn’t increase work production, prisoners would have their food rations cut in half. Each meal we were fed rice, turnips and a little pork fat, which tasted horrible but was enough to sustain life. A cut in food rations was devastating and I saw a few prisoners start to look skeletal.
Much harsher punishment awaited prisoners who caused further problems or continued to fail to adjust. Along the floor of the cell were three bull rings. Prisoners who fought or rebelled were shackled and chained to the floor 24/7, from 3 days up to two weeks. When chained to the floor another prisoner would need to bring a bucket to use as a toilet. Also while chained, food and water rations were reduced, leaving some prisoners to wither near death.
The worst punishment was reserved for the rare occasion when a prisoner disrespected a guard. Such prisoners were taken to an empty cell, chained to the floor, flogged with Christmas light cords and left for 2 to 3 days in solitary confinement without food. Usually the threat of no tobacco was enough to bring prisoners in line, and I was aware of only three floggings during the eight months I was incarcerated.
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Count me as one who does not think Ball (or the others) actually stole anything.
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"While I can conceive that 'something' might be worked out"
Based on you saying the above, you mostly agree with my post you quoted. Our main difference is that I'm happy with these kids getting a scare put into them and learning a lesson while you seem to need for these young men to suffer mightily.
What I support is treatment comparable to any other person who commits a similar crime in that situation without regard to celebrity or foreigner status. Moreover, we here in the U.S. don't get to decide what that punishment is. As an example, if one commits a drug crime in Mexico one faces a pretty unpleasant prison situation. My response is 'don't be stupid'. Now to the extent that something represents a material human rights issue, that's a different problem.
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Fantastic news? Do you want three, admittedly very dumb, college freshmen to be locked up for a minimum of three years each in a prison in a third world foreign country where they don't speak the language? That's harsh.
Last time I was in Shanghai it sure as $hit didn't seem third world. Here the lesson people need to know - not everywhere shares the same ideals that the US does. You play by their rules - not your own. If you can't pay the time, don't do the crime. And this wasn't some petty thing like chewing gum in Singapore but retail theft from LV. They're adults and should know better. Hope they like breaking rocks.
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China is a 3rd world country? Under what definition?
If these guys did this in Singapore how many cane lashings would they get? If this was in some Middle Eastern countries, they potentially could lose a digit or hand.
I love your defense of harsh penalties in the Middle East under Shira Law. I can't wait for your justification of 9/11 and other terrorist attacks on US soil as something the US has earned for our violation of their cultural norms.
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What I support is treatment comparable to any other person who commits a similar crime in that situation without regard to celebrity or foreigner status. Moreover, we here in the U.S. don't get to decide what that punishment is. As an example, if one commits a drug crime in Mexico one faces a pretty unpleasant prison situation. My response is 'don't be stupid'. Now to the extent that something represents a material human rights issue, that's a different problem.
Let's be honest, celebrities (and foreigners) aren't punished the same way as "any other person who commits a similar crime" in the United States, either.
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Maybe you're right, but I believe that the high profile nature of this matter wil lead to something far less then the minimum sentence being enforced. It could lead to UCLA and Georgia Tech leaving without playing the game - not in protest, but in the interest of protecting the schools from liability should another player run afoul of the law. These kids serving a regular sentence would certainly kill any future NCAA games in China, and maybe pro games, too. There would be some international blowback over the harshness of the sentence hurting tourism, and potentially accusations of bigotry on the part of the Chinese Government.
I seriously doubt it would kill tourism or future college/NBA games...with the likely exception of UCLA. If these kids really did violated the law, they should live with the consequences. Future games will simply follow the money.
You have to be smart when traveling abroad. I went to Singapore once...and no, I did NOT spit on the sidewalk.
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What I support is treatment comparable to any other person who commits a similar crime in that situation without regard to celebrity or foreigner status.
So you want them to sit around for nine months before something is plead down to a misdemeanor?
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I love your defense of harsh penalties in the Middle East under Shira Law. I can't wait for your justification of 9/11 and other terrorist attacks on US soil as something the US has earned for our violation of their cultural norms.
It was a defense? How do you figure? It was only stating what happens in other countries, show me the defense I made of those punishments.
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I may be dating myself here, but in the '80's the POSC definition (Thanks to Dr. Farmer, RIP) of a 3rd world country was any country not in NATO or the Warsaw Pact. China was in neither, so therefore a 3rd World Country. I believe the Warsaw Pact was disolved in the early '90's.
I believe the term is outdated as China has evolved, and the term may no longer relfect the current state of world affairs.
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Let's be honest, celebrities (and foreigners) aren't punished the same way as "any other person who commits a similar crime" in the United States, either.
Very true. Perhaps they should be.
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I seriously doubt it would kill tourism or future college/NBA games...with the likely exception of UCLA. If these kids really did violated the law, they should live with the consequences. Future games will simply follow the money.
You have to be smart when traveling abroad. I went to Singapore once...and no, I did NOT spit on the sidewalk.
I love the fact that we are all about 18-20 year olds "living with the consequences" in a foreign country while we sit in a country that has the 8th Amendment firmly in place.
The U.S. should be working to free any citizen that is facing conditions that 4everCrean detailed for a crime as minor as shoplifting.
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I may be dating myself here, but in the '80's the POSC definition (Thanks to Dr. Farmer, RIP) of a 3rd world country was any country not in NATO or the Warsaw Pact. China was in neither, so therefore a 3rd World Country. I believe the Warsaw Pact was disolved in the early '90's.
I believe the term is outdated as China has evolved, and the term may no longer relfect the current state of world affairs.
Actually under its original definition, China was part of the "second world." That definition was not simply Warsaw Pact, but "Communist bloc" and included countries like Cuba and Vietnam as well.
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What I support is treatment comparable to any other person who commits a similar crime in that situation without regard to celebrity or foreigner status. Moreover, we here in the U.S. don't get to decide what that punishment is. As an example, if one commits a drug crime in Mexico one faces a pretty unpleasant prison situation. My response is 'don't be stupid'. Now to the extent that something represents a material human rights issue, that's a different problem.
Whenever I post in a thread like this, I'm aware that its the verbal equivalent of handling nitro, so Im very careful how I say things. In my post that you replied to I said that due to their celebrity status, they were likely to get treated differently, but not that they "should" be treated differently.
I don't think that it would be bad for that to be the outcome in this case, though. To answer Bagpiper, its truly unfortunate that those without advantages would have to bear the full weight of these consequences. I am of the belief that the US judical system has a more enlightened (and by enlightened, I also mean ultimately effective and fair) approach to handling this type of offense.
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I may be dating myself here, but in the '80's the POSC definition (Thanks to Dr. Farmer, RIP) of a 3rd world country was any country not in NATO or the Warsaw Pact. China was in neither, so therefore a 3rd World Country. I believe the Warsaw Pact was disolved in the early '90's.
I believe the term is outdated as China has evolved, and the term may no longer relfect the current state of world affairs.
Dr. Farmer was great. RIP. My recollection is he taught Sauvvy's three models. China was 2nd world along with the USSR.
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.htm
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Whenever I post in a thread like this, I'm aware that its the verbal equivalent of handling nitro, so Im very careful how I say things. In my post that you replied to I said that due to their celebrity status, they were likely to get treated differently, but not that they "should" be treated differently.
I don't think that it would be bad for that to be the outcome in this case, though. To answer Bagpiper, its truly unfortunate that those without advantages would have to bear the full weight of these consequences. I am of the belief that the US judical system has a more enlightened (and by enlightened, I also mean ultimately effective and fair) approach to handling this type of offense.
We're cool 4. :)
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Easy, deport them!
Agreed. And not necessarily on a cushy plane flight.
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I love the fact that we are all about 18-20 year olds "living with the consequences" in a foreign country while we sit in a country that has the 8th Amendment firmly in place.
The U.S. should be working to free any citizen that is facing conditions that 4everCrean detailed for a crime as minor as shoplifting.
Many of us have lived in foreign countries in the past or travel to them routinely now. We are told what the rules are, what to avoid. Visit Singapore and the complete run down one receives about chewing gum, including confiscation of it.
Something like stealing is fairly universal. Then again, sometimes people of power, celeb, notoriety are able to do things without consequences or just plain stupidity. Did it make it any different that J. Winston wasn't in a foreign country but thought not paying for crab legs was cool?
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Referencing Dr Phil "Bad Behavior should not be rewarded consequent needed."
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It was a defense? How do you figure? It was only stating what happens in other countries, show me the defense I made of those punishments.
Your defense of harsh penalties for stealing under Shira Law was implicit when you chosse to use them as an example to justify the penalties for first time shoplifting in China.
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Many of us have lived in foreign countries in the past or travel to them routinely now. We are told what the rules are, what to avoid. Visit Singapore and the complete run down one receives about chewing gum, including confiscation of it.
Something like stealing is fairly universal. Then again, sometimes people of power, celeb, notoriety are able to do things without consequences or just plain stupidity. Did it make it any different that J. Winston wasn't in a foreign country but thought not paying for crab legs was cool?
I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing here.
What I am saying is that since the Bill of Rights is something we Americans believe in, that we should advocate for our citizens who are being punished for crimes in a manner that violates the 8th Amendment. We shouldn't simply say "rules are rules."
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They will walk and might be visiting China again anytime soon. Too high profile and highly, highly expect them to be a plane sooner than later. That said, I would lock them up!!!
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You are correct that China is not a third world country, but I'll just put the following out there and let everyone decide for themselves if their prisions are comparable. Maybe reading this you will get my point. God, I hope you can.
In the middle of the night the PSB took me to White Cloud District Detention Center in the city of Guangzhou, where I would spend the next 280 days. I was in shock and denial as I was processed and then taken down a long dank corridor to my cell. Opening the corridor door to cell B218 revealed an empty, moldy room the size of a racquetball court. As I was pushed inside I was full of terror. The corridor door closed and a side door to the “inner cell” opened, with native Chinese prisoners motioning me inward to the sleeping and working quarters.
The inner cell was the same size but held 30 prisoners, all sleeping on the concrete floor. There were no blankets or pillows and the room was so crowded that most prisoners slept on their sides with arms draped over each other like embracing couples. Near the back was an older prisoner indicating he was making room for me to lie down. Dazed and confused, I crossed the cell like a cat, careful not to step on the heads, arms or bodies of other prisoners. My concussion and the long day of coercive interrogation had left me exhausted and I lay down to sleep.
In Chinese jails, prisoners begin working on their first day of detention regardless of the circumstances. The right of having a phone call upon arrest is unheard of, and most have no contact with the outside world throughout the entire time they are incarcerated. Many are jailed for months without ever being formally charged, then released without going to trial.
Each day at 6:30 a.m. the cell leader woke everyone by clapping his hands to begin another routine day. Thirty men lined up to brush their teeth while simultaneously using a single hole in the ground as our only toilet. After washing and using the toilet, prisoners arranged themselves in rows sitting cross-legged to chant communist slogans and recite detention regulations. Once the chanting was complete, prisoners would stand for an hour of military-style marching in place. Any who didn’t enthusiastically chant or march briskly received beatings or various other types of punishment.
Each cell was run by a gang who pushed work production through a series of rewards and punishments. While there was one leader, he surrounded himself with what we called “the lieutenants” – forming what we called “the regime.” After work quotas were issued, prisoners would line the wall to assemble Christmas lights all day with two ten-minute breaks for lunch at 11:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m. for dinner. No uniforms were issued, so most prisoners sat in their underwear. Later, in the shower, I noticed many prisoners had bedsores from long hours sitting on the concrete floor.
Due to my mental state, shock and the dim lighting, I was unable to do even the simplest work tasks. As a foreigner and due to the language barrier, the leader gave me a little slack, but for native prisoners anything short of the 6,000-light quota per day would promptly be met with punishment.
On my second day, our cell guard came to check on me. When any prison official visited, prisoners would squat on their heels and lock their hands behind their heads in a non-threatening position we called “the squat-n-lock.” Noting my poor condition, the guard stated he would take me to the infirmary, but it was three days before he returned to our cell. Sometimes we wouldn’t see a guard for 4-5 days, leaving us under the total control of the leader and his “regime.”
During the workday the regime would stroll around shouting “Kuai-dian” (“faster”). Anything from slow work production to a “wrong look” would bring a slap to the head or kick to the ribs. If slow production persisted or a prisoner back-talked, the regime would bring them to the front of the cell for a series of kicks, blows and punches.
The most common punishment was withholding the daily ration of two hand-rolled cigarettes. If that didn’t increase work production, prisoners would have their food rations cut in half. Each meal we were fed rice, turnips and a little pork fat, which tasted horrible but was enough to sustain life. A cut in food rations was devastating and I saw a few prisoners start to look skeletal.
Much harsher punishment awaited prisoners who caused further problems or continued to fail to adjust. Along the floor of the cell were three bull rings. Prisoners who fought or rebelled were shackled and chained to the floor 24/7, from 3 days up to two weeks. When chained to the floor another prisoner would need to bring a bucket to use as a toilet. Also while chained, food and water rations were reduced, leaving some prisoners to wither near death.
The worst punishment was reserved for the rare occasion when a prisoner disrespected a guard. Such prisoners were taken to an empty cell, chained to the floor, flogged with Christmas light cords and left for 2 to 3 days in solitary confinement without food. Usually the threat of no tobacco was enough to bring prisoners in line, and I was aware of only three floggings during the eight months I was incarcerated.
I’m not gonna argue whether Their system is humane or just because I️ don’t believe it is. what I’m arguing is that people only care because their standing in our society. Nobody cares if an 18yr old drop out got a ticket to China and did the same thing. Second I’m arguing that if you go to another country you obey their rules or risk they penetenciary system. If they wanted to steal so bad then they should’ve done it in the states. An Irish man once lost a hand in Dubai for kissing a british girl in a cab, that was harsh and unjust but he’d should’ve known better also, same thing I’m arguing here.
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Your defense of harsh penalties for stealing under Shira Law was implicit when you chosse to use them as an example to justify the penalties for first time shoplifting in China.
No. A factual statement of what can happen elsewhere, no justification or condemnation of China's policies. None whatsoever. Sorry, you are wrong on this one.
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Fantastic news? Do you want three, admittedly very dumb, college freshmen to be locked up for a minimum of three years each in a prison in a third world foreign country where they don't speak the language? That's harsh.
Not as harsh as it used to be. They used to cut the thief's hand off. I would assume that every school taking a foreign trip warns their players about doing stupid things in another country. If UCLA did not do this, then the administration has some blame. However, what we are dealing with here is a sense of entitlement the young men had. I suspect they will receive a sentence and, it will get negotiated down by our government. UCLA should kick them off the team
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Count me as one who does not think Ball (or the others) actually stole anything.
According to Jeff Goodman, the UCLA players admitted to stealing. The Georgia Tech players were let go. Will see what additional info comes out.
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No. A factual statement of what can happen elsewhere, no justification or condemnation of China's policies. None whatsoever. Sorry, you are wrong on this one.
I apologize, if I mistook your meaning.
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In Wisconsin, this would be a Class A misdemeanor. Assuming they are first time offenders, it would be plead down to probation.
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In Wisconsin, this would be a Class A misdemeanor. Assuming they are first time offenders, it would be plead down to probation.
I am assuming that since they are under house arrest that they will have some kind of trial. Probably more to do with sentencing given that they already admitted they did it.
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According to Jeff Goodman, the UCLA players admitted to stealing. The Georgia Tech players were let go. Will see what additional info comes out.
Where did you see that reported?
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In Wisconsin, this would be a Class A misdemeanor. Assuming they are first time offenders, it would be plead down to probation.
Well... they weren't in Wisconsin now, were they?
Unless you have diplomatic immunity, you are subject to the laws of the locale you're in... doesn't matter if you're in a different city, county, state, province, prefecture, district or country. Whatever the laws are back home is irrelevant.
China is a sovereign nation. You may not agree with the laws they have, but they're entitled to enforce and penalize any way they see fit just as we are entitled to the same in the U.S.
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Yet another black eye for college basketball, and an even worse look for UCLA. You feel bad for the kids, not for being kids, but rather the severe differential in criminal proceedings in China vs. the United States. Bottom line, stealing here vs. stealing there is still stealing; it is wrong and there does need to be consequences for that.
If China wants to give them anywhere from 3-10 years, I don't think there's much we can do to change that.
I do wonder if this will resist future programs from doing overseas trips now. Probably not, but at least second guess it at a minimum.
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Well... they weren't in Wisconsin now, were they?
Unless you have diplomatic immunity, you are subject to the laws of the locale you're in... doesn't matter if you're in a different city, county, state, province, prefecture, district or country. Whatever the laws are back home is irrelevant.
China is a sovereign nation. You may not agree with the laws they have, but they're entitled to enforce and penalize any way they see fit just as we are entitled to the same in the U.S.
Please follow the conversation. Of course China has the right do enforce its laws and its penalties.
What I am saying is that the potential penalties are overly harsh, and therefore the United State should advocate for leniency.
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One thing's for sure... LiAngelo just closed the door on his best basketball-playing opportunity post-UCLA.
Lost in all of this is the obvious question: Why the hell are GT and UCLA playing a game in China?
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We can all speculate or argue about what the punishment might be, or should be, in China, but what should/will the punishment be from UCLA? Long-term suspension? Kicked off the team? Expulsion?
One of the things that convinces me that this is a very serious situation is that LaVar Ball scheduled a press conference and then canceled it, citing legal advice to not comment on the situation. When has LaVar Ball ever taken anyone’s advice on anything? Especially when his TV show is filming.
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We can all speculate or argue about what the punishment might be, or should be, in China, but what should/will the punishment be from UCLA? Long-term suspension? Kicked off the team? Expulsion?
One of the things that convinces me that this is a very serious situation is that LaVar Ball scheduled a press conference and then canceled it, citing legal advice to not comment on the situation. When has LaVar Ball ever taken anyone’s advice on anything? Especially when his TV show is filming.
Mr. Bell would be wise to keep his mouth shut until such time that his kid is out of Chinese airspace. That lawyer is earning every nickel right now.
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Please follow the conversation. Of course China has the right do enforce its laws and its penalties.
What I am saying is that the potential penalties are overly harsh, and therefore the United State should advocate for leniency.
The U.S. should do nothing for those 3 idiots.
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The U.S. should do nothing for those 3 idiots.
WTF is wrong with you? It is a stated task of the State Department to provide such services on behalf of US citizens.
https://do.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/arrest-of-a-u-s-citizen/general-information-assistance-u-s-citizens-arrested-abroad/
"One of the most essential tasks of the Department of State and of U.S. embassies and consulates abroad is to provide assistance to U.S. citizens incarcerated abroad. The State Department is committed to ensuring fair and humane treatment for U.S. citizens imprisoned overseas. We stand ready to assist incarcerated citizens and their families within the limits of our authority, in accordance with international law. We can and do monitor conditions in foreign prisons and immediately protest allegations of abuse against U.S. citizen prisoners. We work with prison officials to ensure treatment consistent with internationally recognized standards of human rights and to ensure that U.S. citizens are afforded due process under local laws."
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What is wrong with me Sultan? I expect people to abide by the laws in this country and especially if they are going overseas. These numbnuts stole stuff in a foreign country. Screw them.
This country is letting this crap go on without penalty and these basketball players are always looking for handouts. They get paid a stipend to go to school and received free travel to China and they do this?
Nope, not going to defend them.
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What is wrong with me Sultan? I expect people to abide by the laws in this country and especially if they are going overseas. These numbnuts stole stuff in a foreign country. Screw them.
This country is letting this crap go on without penalty and these basketball players are always looking for handouts. They get paid a stipend to go to school and received free travel to China and they do this?
Nope, not going to defend them.
I'm not defending them. I am saying that the US State Department should provide assistance and advocate for them if the situations arises. That is something they earn as citizens of this country. It is something that countries have been doing on behalf of its citizens pretty much since countries existed.
So yeah, wtf is wrong with you?
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Another face of the "Ugly American"
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.
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What is wrong with me Sultan? I expect people to abide by the laws in this country and especially if they are going overseas. These numbnuts stole stuff in a foreign country. Screw them.
This country is letting this crap go on without penalty and these basketball players are always looking for handouts. They get paid a stipend to go to school and received free travel to China and they do this?
Nope, not going to defend them.
Just curious, do you know for a fact they stole? I have no idea what the story is for sure, but just in case it's BS isn't it a good idea to have State help?
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Big Ballers only steal.
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Liangelo should get used to staying in china, he'll be playing there after college
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Have you seen LiAngelo's new signature shoe?
(https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/3kUAAOSwvTBZuH-O/s-l225.jpg)
/Shamelessly stolen from another message board.
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I'm not defending them. I am saying that the US State Department should provide assistance and advocate for them if the situations arises. That is something they earn as citizens of this country. It is something that countries have been doing on behalf of its citizens pretty much since countries existed.
So yeah, wtf is wrong with you?
The section you quoted only spoke about monitoring prison conditions to ensure that they are treated humanely. It said nothing about getting them off the hook for their offenses.
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The section you quoted only spoke about monitoring prison conditions to ensure that they are treated humanely. It said nothing about getting them off the hook for their offenses.
Where did I say they should be let off the hook?
I was specifically responding to Ted: "The U.S. should do nothing for those 3 idiots."
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What is wrong with me Sultan? I expect people to abide by the laws in this country and especially if they are going overseas. These numbnuts stole stuff in a foreign country. Screw them.
This country is letting this crap go on without penalty and these basketball players are always looking for handouts. They get paid a stipend to go to school and received free travel to China and they do this?
Nope, not going to defend them.
Nobody's defending them. And the State Department isn't going to end diplomatic relations with China or ask the Prez to get involved over a minor disagreement in sentencing. Fair trial? Sure. Don't draw and quarter the young men? Sure. Difference between a year of Chinese jail time vs. going home with a wrist slap? Nope, not going to say a peep. And shouldn't.
Now you can bet that the Ball family attorney will be screaming for it. But that's his job. So don't get sucked in. Which is not to say that the Chinese might simply decide to kick them all out of the country immediately. But that's a political decision on their part that they are more than capable of making.
And if you look at the language Sultan posted, that pretty much captures it. So let's go all have a beer!
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Where did I say they should be let off the hook?
I was specifically responding to Ted: "The U.S. should do nothing for those 3 idiots."
Earlier you said:
"The U.S. should be working to free any citizen that is facing conditions that 4everCrean detailed for a crime as minor as shoplifting."
That sure sounds like letting them off the hook....
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One thing's for sure... LiAngelo just closed the door on his best basketball-playing opportunity post-UCLA.
Lost in all of this is the obvious question: Why the hell are GT and UCLA playing a game in China?
I have read that apparently PAC-12 schools have been busy cultivating a following in China in recent years.
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Earlier you said:
"The U.S. should be working to free any citizen that is facing conditions that 4everCrean detailed for a crime as minor as shoplifting."
That sure sounds like letting them off the hook....
OK. I meant "free" from those specific conditions. Not free them from all repercussions of their activity. Sorry for not expressing that as well as I should have.
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I'm surprised Lavar hasn't called for diplomatic immunity
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I'm surprised Lavar hasn't called for diplomatic immunity
Lavar has been ball-gagged and thrown into his lawyers basement like the gimp.
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Please follow the conversation. Of course China has the right do enforce its laws and its penalties.
What I am saying is that the potential penalties are overly harsh, and therefore the United State should advocate for leniency.
I bet with over 3 times as many people, China has less crime than the U.S. does.
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I bet with over 3 times as many people, China has less crime than the U.S. does.
My eldest son, who has lived and worked there for eight years, confirms your bet.
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I bet with over 3 times as many people, China has less crime than the U.S. does.
And?
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I bet with over 3 times as many people, China has less crime than the U.S. does.
Also, less economic, political and social freedom.
And guns, obviously.
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WTF is wrong with you? It is a stated task of the State Department to provide such services on behalf of US citizens.
https://do.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/arrest-of-a-u-s-citizen/general-information-assistance-u-s-citizens-arrested-abroad/
"One of the most essential tasks of the Department of State and of U.S. embassies and consulates abroad is to provide assistance to U.S. citizens incarcerated abroad. The State Department is committed to ensuring fair and humane treatment for U.S. citizens imprisoned overseas. We stand ready to assist incarcerated citizens and their families within the limits of our authority, in accordance with international law. We can and do monitor conditions in foreign prisons and immediately protest allegations of abuse against U.S. citizen prisoners. We work with prison officials to ensure treatment consistent with internationally recognized standards of human rights and to ensure that U.S. citizens are afforded due process under local laws."
I am glad the Department of State is there to provide these services to US Citizens. These young men deserve due process especially in light of their celebrity status.
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I am glad the Department of State is there to provide these services to US Citizens. These young men deserve due process especially in light of their celebrity status.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/K9mJICus1k3PG/giphy.gif)
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Tough situation for these young men. They need to get Trump on their side to make the deal to get out. Otherwise they are in for a world of hurt.
I am sure our dear leader will quickly intercede on their behalf.
It's not as if they did something truly heinous ... like take a knee during the national anthem.
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I am sure our dear leader will quickly intercede on their behalf.
It's not as if they did something truly heinous ... like take a knee during the national anthem.
I can only imagine what would happen in China if someone took a knee during their national anthem. Probably wind up with the same fate as this dude.
(https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/66/91866-004-0B707093.jpg)
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I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing here.
Was responding to the part about us sitting in the US while this was going on overseas. Some of us have lived in those countries and/or visited. What is allowed in America doesn't mean it is everywhere else.
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Where did you see that reported?
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21331147/ucla-players-liangelo-ball-cody-riley-jalen-hill-arrested-china-shoplifting
If you watch the video at the top of the link. He says after hours of interrogation, the UCLA players eventually did tell authorities the truth and they were arrested.
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Was responding to the part about us sitting in the US while this was going on overseas. Some of us have lived in those countries and/or visited. What is allowed in America doesn't mean it is everywhere else.
No sh*t. I never claimed otherwise.
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Asked if he was worried about LiAngelo, LaVar said, "He'll be fine. He'll be fine. Everybody making it a big deal; it ain't that big of a deal."
This shows that attitude of his father and many others.
Son gets caught shop lifting in a foreign country embarrassing UCLA and he does not think it is a big deal.
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Asked if he was worried about LiAngelo, LaVar said, "He'll be fine. He'll be fine. Everybody making it a big deal; it ain't that big of a deal."
This shows that attitude of his father and many others.
Son gets caught shop lifting in a foreign country embarrassing UCLA and he does not think it is a big deal.
It'll be a pretty big deal if he breaks rocks for 3 years.
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It'll be a pretty big deal if he breaks rocks for 3 years.
Oh please let it happen.
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These young men deserve due process especially in light of their celebrity status.
Obvious troll is obvious.
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For the sake of the father, I want it to happen.
For the sake of the son, who was unquestionably stupid but likely didn't realize the repercussions of such stupidity, I don't want it to happen.
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For the sake of the father, I want it to happen.
For the sake of the son, who was unquestionably stupid but likely didn't realize the repercussions of such stupidity, I don't want it to happen.
Nah, by the time you're 18 years old, you know stealing is bad.
Hopefully, it was a talk that the coaches had with the players before they left.
"This isn't America. Don't get out of line at all because Chinese prison camps are a thing, and we may not be able to get you out of it."
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For the sake of the father, I want it to happen.
For the sake of the son, who was unquestionably stupid but likely didn't realize the repercussions of such stupidity, I don't want it to happen.
This.
The arsewipe dad has put his sons in some no-win situations. There are basketball fans who otherwise would have no opinion on Lonzo who instead "hate" him only because of his dad. It's silly, and fans can be stupid, but it still "is."
I really, truly don't want this kid to do hard time in a Chinese prison ... but, yes, there would be a small measure of "Just STFU LaVar" satisfaction in seeing it happen.
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Nah, by the time you're 18 years old, you know stealing is bad.
Hopefully, it was a talk that the coaches had with the players before they left.
"This isn't America. Don't get out of line at all because Chinese prison camps are a thing, and we may not be able to get you out of it."
I get the sense consequences with follow-through wasn't really a big thing in the Ball household, or this never would've happened in the first place.
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I don't want to overthink it. Those kids made an unbelievably bad decision and are in real life changing jeopardy.
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I get the sense consequences with follow-through wasn't really a big thing in the Ball household, or this never would've happened in the first place.
Not when you grow up in a house where you're told you're the greatest, can do no wrong and are given an "entitled" attitude.
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Oh please let it happen.
Really? You want an 18 year old to be subject to hard labor in a foreign country?
So much for the 8th amendment.
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Really? You want an 18 year old to be subject to hard labor in a foreign country?
So much for the 8th amendment.
But his dad is a loudmouth, so it's OK.
I, for one, am glad no one on Scoop ever did anything dumb when they were 18.
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But his dad is a loudmouth, so it's OK.
I, for one, am glad no one on Scoop ever did anything dumb when they were 18.
There is a huge difference between "never did anything dumb" and "stole items worth thousands of dollars".
And if you are asking how I know the stuff they lifted was worth that much, you have never been in a Louis Vuitton store.
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There is a huge difference between "never did anything dumb" and "stole items worth thousands of dollars".
And if you are asking how I know the stuff they lifted was worth that much, you have never been in a Louis Vuitton store.
Maybe if they'd gone to the Louis Vuitton knockoff store, the penalties wouldn't be as harsh, hey?
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Well, if coaches have not already emphasized the importance of following all laws in foreign countries on tours, I am sure it will be a large part of the pre-trip curriculum in the future.
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Well, if coaches have not already emphasized the importance of following all laws in foreign countries on tours, I am sure it will be a large part of the pre-trip curriculum in the future.
Given who their coach is, I'm guessing ethics aren't part of the curriculum.
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So, should we start giving kids hard prison time and "rock-breaking" for shop-lifting in the US?
There is a track record for this kind of stuff. The minority kids would get prison time and the white kids would get 20 minutes of community service.
Yes, the dad is a self-promoting jerk who is determined to get rich off of his kids, but it is very hard to believe some of what you people are posting. Almost disgustingly so.
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We don't need to assume anything to say that this was objectively stupid, and LiMelo deserves to be punished with his basketball season put in real jeopardy - but we can hope this gets figured out for him to avoid a draconian Chinese prison sentence, too. Lonzo by all accounts seems like a decent enough kid, and I think dictates that we slow our role about assuming anything about LaVar's parenting, millennials, or whatever else we want to attribute this to. The schadenfreude here is probably about 45% LaVar, 45% ESPN, 9% whatever else we're mad at today, and 1% LiAngelo.
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There is a huge difference between "never did anything dumb" and "stole items worth thousands of dollars".
And if you are asking how I know the stuff they lifted was worth that much, you have never been in a Louis Vuitton store.
Exactly. This isn't kids being kids. They knew what they were doing, knew it was wrong, and made a conscious decision to do it anyway. I don't want them to rot for 10 years, but I think 3 months could be life altering for them and it may set an example for others to not be so cavalier with their behavior.
And Sultan, I'm not saying the kids don't deserve their day in court (they do, obviously), but remember they are on Chinese soil. The letter of the law is not the same worldwide.
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Not accusing anyone here specifically, but sorry guys, this is a racially charged issue. How many of you have ever advocated prison time for white teenage girls in America?
There is plenty of statistical evidence that blacks in America get more prison time than whites for the same crimes. Now we have people on this board who are advocating hard prison time for shoplifting.
Estimates are that somewhere between 11%=20% of the US population have shoplifted at sometime in their lives. Are you calling for them all to serve "hard time"? Should we build more prisons to house all of these teenage "criminals"?
In the last 10 years over 11,000,000 Americans have been caught shoplifting. Should they all be in prison?
So, I guess what I am asking to all of those wanting this kid to got o prison in a foreign dictatorship - do you want us to send millions and millions of american kids to prison? Are you all "Ted Baxter" hardliners? And, theoretically, would Ted Baxter advocate years of hard prison time if his 16 year old daughter stole some lipstick?
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So, should we start giving kids hard prison time and "rock-breaking" for shop-lifting in the US?
There is a track record for this kind of stuff. The minority kids would get prison time and the white kids would get 20 minutes of community service.
Yes, the dad is a self-promoting jerk who is determined to get rich off of his kids, but it is very hard to believe some of what you people are posting. Almost disgustingly so.
You're creating a strawman argument that no one here will disagree with.
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We don't need to assume anything to say that this was objectively stupid, and LiMelo deserves to be punished with his basketball season put in real jeopardy - but we can hope this gets figured out for him to avoid a draconian Chinese prison sentence, too. Lonzo by all accounts seems like a decent enough kid, and I think dictates that we slow our role about assuming anything about LaVar's parenting, millennials, or whatever else we want to attribute this to. The schadenfreude here is probably about 45% LaVar, 45% ESPN, 9% whatever else we're mad at today, and 1% LiAngelo.
Very well said. His suspension from the team would seem like adequate punishment.
It is sickening that some here want to see an 18 year old doing hard time in a communist prison camp over this. We would not see these same posts if it was some cute 17 year old gymnast.
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Not accusing anyone here specifically, but sorry guys, this is a racially charged issue. How many of you have ever advocated prison time for white teenage girls in America?
There is plenty of statistical evidence that blacks in America get more prison time than whites for the same crimes. Now we have people on this board who are advocating hard prison time for shoplifting.
Estimates are that somewhere between 11%=20% of the US population have shoplifted at sometime in their lives. Are you calling for them all to serve "hard time"? Should we build more prisons to house all of these teenage "criminals"?
In the last 10 years over 11,000,000 Americans have been caught shoplifting. Should they all be in prison?
So, I guess what I am asking to all of those wanting this kid to got o prison in a foreign dictatorship - do you want us to send millions and millions of american kids to prison? Are you all "Ted Baxter" hardliners? And, theoretically, would Ted Baxter advocate years of hard prison time if his 16 year old daughter stole some lipstick?
Strawman.
This is a crime committed in another country. You play by their rules. I don't care what race the person is. In fact, you're the only person to have even brought up race.
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Exactly. This isn't kids being kids. They knew what they were doing, knew it was wrong, and made a conscious decision to do it anyway. I don't want them to rot for 10 years, but I think 3 months could be life altering for them and it may set an example for others to not be so cavalier with their behavior.
And Sultan, I'm not saying the kids don't deserve their day in court (they do, obviously), but remember they are on Chinese soil. The letter of the law is not the same worldwide.
Why do people keep pointing this out to me? No kidding.
That doesn’t mean that an American sense of justice is being served. And that should mean something.
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You're creating a strawman argument that no one here will disagree with.
I guess my response then you want to see this kid get the hammer.
And, location shouldn't matter, right? A crime is a crime.
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Not accusing anyone here specifically, but sorry guys, this is a racially charged issue. How many of you have ever advocated prison time for white teenage girls in America?
There is plenty of statistical evidence that blacks in America get more prison time than whites for the same crimes. Now we have people on this board who are advocating hard prison time for shoplifting.
Estimates are that somewhere between 11%=20% of the US population have shoplifted at sometime in their lives. Are you calling for them all to serve "hard time"? Should we build more prisons to house all of these teenage "criminals"?
In the last 10 years over 11,000,000 Americans have been caught shoplifting. Should they all be in prison?
So, I guess what I am asking to all of those wanting this kid to got o prison in a foreign dictatorship - do you want us to send millions and millions of american kids to prison? Are you all "Ted Baxter" hardliners? And, theoretically, would Ted Baxter advocate years of hard prison time if his 16 year old daughter stole some lipstick?
First stealing from Louis voitton isn’t exactly stealing lipstick.
Second I’m not sure any are calling for prison time if it’s their first offense and it was on American soil but it wasn’t and they shouldn’t be treated differently than any other American who stole expensive things and got caught in China. If someone is advocating hard time for this instance they should have proof it’s grand theft not petty theft or shoplifting.
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Why do people keep pointing this out to me? No kidding.
That doesn’t mean that an American sense of justice is being served. And that should mean something.
Sure, but they didn't do this in America. Chinese players doing this in America should expect punishment under American law.
Why is this difficult?
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I guess my response then you want to see this kid get the hammer.
And, location shouldn't matter, right? A crime is a crime.
But location is the most important factor here. Chinese soil, they get to determine the punishment.
If there is a problem with this, then don't go to China anymore; or understand that actions have consequences, and they may not be the same as back home.
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Maybe if they'd gone to the Louis Vuitton knockoff store, the penalties wouldn't be as harsh, hey?
They were in China, so it probably was a knock off store.
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Sure, but they didn't do this in America. Chinese players doing this in America should expect punishment under American law.
Why is this difficult?
This is true, but there is a point when the punishment becomes so severe that it is no longer ethical. Where that point is different for different people.
It's oversimplifying it to say that you need to follow the law of the land at all times. What if the law of the land was that these kids should have a hand chopped off? Sometimes the law of the land is immoral.
These things are on a spectrum. For you, 3 to 10 years of hard labor is within ethical boundaries as a punishment for shoplifting. For others, it's not.
Honestly, I doubt it matters. I think the players end up getting sent back to the usa where they will get slap on the wrist punishments from UCLA. Which Ipersonally don't think is right.
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This is true, but there is a point when the punishment becomes so severe that it is no longer ethical. Where that point is different for different people.
It's oversimplifying it to say that you need to follow the law of the land at all times. What if the law of the land was that these kids should have a hand chopped off? Sometimes the law of the land is immoral.
These things are on a spectrum. For you, 3 to 10 years of hard labor is within ethical boundaries as a punishment for shoplifting. For others, it's not.
Honestly, I doubt it matters. I think the players end up getting sent back to the usa where they will get slap on the wrist punishments from UCLA. Which Ipersonally don't think is right.
Of course it’s not ethical but by Chinese perspective our punishment Isn’t ethical. That’s why location matters.
Just because we’re American doesn’t mean we get to dictate what is and is not ethical in every country. If you believe that getting a slap on the wrist isn’t “right” imagine how the Chinese feel about it ethically.
Location matters. It’s why when people from the Middle East come here and kiss an unmarried women they don’t lose a hand, but when it happens there they do.
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Sure, but they didn't do this in America. Chinese players doing this in America should expect punishment under American law.
Why is this difficult?
Holy sh*t. Can you not read? I have acknowledged that repeatedly.
My point is that we should be concerned that an American could be in a Chinese jail pounding rocks for 3 years where the American equivalent crime would be a few months in jail and probation at most. That should offend our sense of justice.
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The new stuff I'm seeing seems to suggest that the punishment may not be too severe.
For example (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2017/11/08/liangelo-ball-ucla-players-arrest-china-law-experts/846856001/)
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Just because we’re American doesn’t mean we get to dictate what is and is not ethical in every country.
No one said this.
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But location is the most important factor here. Chinese soil, they get to determine the punishment.
No one said otherwise.
Stop making arguments that don't exist.
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No one said this.
When you say “that should offend our sense of justice” does that not equate to our sense of justice is ethical and theirs is not?
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Holy sh*t. Can you not read? I have acknowledged that repeatedly.
My point is that we should be concerned that an American could be in a Chinese jail pounding rocks for 3 years where the American equivalent crime would be a few months in jail and probation at most. That should offend our sense of justice.
I'm not concerned with it at all. Nor should anyone but the players and their families.
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When you say “that should offend our sense of justice” does that not equate to our sense of justice is ethical and theirs is not?
It isn't. That isn't "dictating" anything.
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I'm not concerned with it at all.
Well that's sad. Injustice should make you concerned no matter the circumstance.
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Well that's sad. Injustice should make you concerned no matter the circumstance.
Its an injustice to who, though? Surely not everyone.
That's the issue you're having here. A punishment hasn't even been doled out, but you're already calling for them to be punished at home under American law, rather than the country where they committed their crimes.
Apparently, national sovereignty means nothing to you?
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Its an injustice to who, though? Surely not everyone.
That's the issue you're having here. A punishment hasn't even been doled out, but you're already calling for them to be punished at home under American law, rather than the country where they committed their crimes.
Again, you are making things up. I never said that.
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Of course it’s not ethical but by Chinese perspective our punishment Isn’t ethical. That’s why location matters.
Just because we’re American doesn’t mean we get to dictate what is and is not ethical in every country. If you believe that getting a slap on the wrist isn’t “right” imagine how the Chinese feel about it ethically.
Location matters. It’s why when people from the Middle East come here and kiss an unmarried women they don’t lose a hand, but when it happens there they do.
Location matters, but at some point a punishment would be so severe that our own sense of ethics demands that we try to save somebody from it. For some people, that threshold is going to be at "losing a hand" for others this is at that point. I'm not making an argument that someone should intervene in this particular situation, I'm just acknowledging that everyone's sense of ethics is different, and letting it boil down to "the law of the land is always correct 100% of the time" is oversimplifying it.
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Again, you are making things up. I never said that.
Then what are you saying? I'm not the only person that seems to be confused.
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Then what are you saying? I'm not the only person that seems to be confused.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=54768.msg958987#msg958987
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This is what we have the State Department for, and it should be their mission to ensure that wherever they are in the world, Americans are treated as the 8th Amendment guarantees. I fully understand they are not in America, and I fully understand China has different standards and laws. However, these are individuals that were raised in a country where they are accustomed to the 8th Amendment. Further, I suspect they were raised to believe things like this would typically be greeted with a far less severe punishment.
It's easy to say the standards change as soon as they leave the country, but what doesn't change is how they were raised and what their expectations are as American citizens. Fair or not, my suspicion is that Liangelo Ball believes he is a superstar and above the law. Mainly because his father constantly acts like his children are superstars and above the law. You can take the kid out of the country, but you can't take 18 years of education, coddling, and Americanism out of the kid.
Should they be punished? Absolutely. Are they subject to Chinese laws? Absolutely. But because they were raised as Americans and are Americans, it should be the duty of our State Department to try to extradite them so they are treated in accordance with what they have been raised to expect, which is no cruel and unusual punishments.
I suspect that both the parents involved and UCLA as an institution failed these kids. They are technically adults, and if they end up punished to the fullest extent of Chinese standards the situation is what it is, but I sincerely hope the State Department does everything they can to get these kids home and find a way to punish them in accordance with our laws.
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This is what we have the State Department for, and it should be their mission to ensure that wherever they are in the world, Americans are treated as the 8th Amendment guarantees. I fully understand they are not in America, and I fully understand China has different standards and laws. However, these are individuals that were raised in a country where they are accustomed to the 8th Amendment. Further, I suspect they were raised to believe things like this would typically be greeted with a far less severe punishment.
It's easy to say the standards change as soon as they leave the country, but what doesn't change is how they were raised and what their expectations are as American citizens. Fair or not, my suspicion is that Liangelo Ball believes he is a superstar and above the law. Mainly because his father constantly acts like his children are superstars and above the law. You can take the kid out of the country, but you can't take 18 years of education, coddling, and Americanism out of the kid.
Should they be punished? Absolutely. Are they subject to Chinese laws? Absolutely. But because they were raised as Americans and are Americans, it should be the duty of our State Department to try to extradite them so they are treated in accordance with what they have been raised to expect, which is no cruel and unusual punishments.
I suspect that both the parents involved and UCLA as an institution failed these kids. They are technically adults, and if they end up punished to the fullest extent of Chinese standards the situation is what it is, but I sincerely hope the State Department does everything they can to get these kids home and find a way to punish them in accordance with our laws.
Exactly. Well stated.
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http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=54768.msg958987#msg958987
Well it has been reported that the kids will serve 20 days house arrest.
IMO that is a joke of a sentence.
Your thoughts?
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This is not a race or gender issue. This is about the hazards that US citizens face when they go to a foreign country and commit a crime. I had a friend from high school - white, middle class, female- who was given a five year sentence for possession of heroin in a European country. People need to know that their rights are not the same when they travel abroad.
I don’t advocate for these men to be handed harsh punishment for what they did. But we have to understand that it’s a risk.
I would, however, advocate that UCLA come up with a suitable punishment for these players - who knew what they were doing was wrong - bringing bad publicity and maybe even shame to the program and school. Likely won’t happen; too many $$ in basketball.
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I guess my response then you want to see this kid get the hammer.
And, location shouldn't matter, right? A crime is a crime.
Well location most definitely matters. If I was a woman in Saudi Arabia I could be arrested for being outside alone. If I wore American jeans in the ussr I'd be sent to the gulag.
So a crime is not always a crime everywhere
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Well it has been reported that the kids will serve 20 days house arrest.
IMO that is a joke of a sentence.
Your thoughts?
Joke of a sentence for what was likely grand theft based on the store. But on the unlikely event they stole the only thing not $500 in the store then it seems appropriate.
Also are we talking house arrest in China or UCLA? Because if it’s at UCLA they’ll likely argue some route that includes the practice facility, classes, the whole dorm etc which is essentially their life anyways.
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Well it has been reported that the kids will serve 20 days house arrest.
IMO that is a joke of a sentence.
Your thoughts?
It is clearly not cruel or unusual so I'm fine with it. I think that first-time offenders for crime that doesn't cause harm to others or their property, and restitution is paid and/or the goods returned, that this type of sentence is fine.
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Would this me more than the OK State football player that punched and broke the girl's Jaw?
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Taking another's property without permission is wrong. Stealing is both illegal and unethical. That has absolutely nothing to do with race, nationality or religion.
Stealing in a foreign country universally known for widespread human rights abuses is amazingly, stupefyingly dumb. That said — as American citizens, the players involved should still get every possible protection and assistance from the State Department. Nobody deserves to be treated the way accused and convicted criminals are under the Chinese system.
If it goes to trial, the process could take more than 3 months. Conviction is a near certainty. However, I suspect Chinese authorities will want to make this go away, rather than risk the bad PR. Reuters reports that often "China will deport foreigners suspected of having committed relatively minor offenses without going through the whole process."
"Relatively minor" is Reuter's language, not mine. But compared to offenses such as assault or attempted murder, that seems appropriate.
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Taking another's property without permission is wrong. Stealing is both illegal and unethical. That has absolutely nothing to do with race, nationality or religion.
Stealing in a foreign country universally known for widespread human rights abuses is amazingly, stupefyingly dumb. That said — as American citizens, the players involved should still get every possible protection and assistance from the State Department. Nobody deserves to be treated the way accused and convicted criminals are under the Chinese system.
If it goes to trial, the process could take more than 3 months. Conviction is a near certainty. However, I suspect Chinese authorities will want to make this go away, rather than risk the bad PR. Reuters reports that often "China will deport foreigners suspected of having committed relatively minor offenses without going through the whole process."
"Relatively minor" is Reuter's language, not mine. But compared to offenses such as assault or attempted murder, that seems appropriate.
They've already admitted guilt... I'm pretty sure it was open and shut.
20 days home arrest AND (something I missed earlier) a lifetime ban from China... Which is significant because these men can't ever play a game of basketball in China, which also means no international games played in China.
After thinking about it more, I think the punishment is commensurate.
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Wow did this spin up!
Anyway, if they do get off with roughly a month of jail time they should consider themselves very fortunate. Then the next question is what UCLA should do to them. I know what my decision would be.
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Wow did this spin up!
Anyway, if they do get off with roughly a month of jail time they should consider themselves very fortunate. Then the next question is what UCLA should do to them. I know what my decision would be.
I'm curious to see as well. 5 games would satisfy me. Anything lower and I hope the PAC 12 jumps in.
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Here's what I don't know. Let's assume this was at least a couple thousand in merch. In the USA does that get plea bargained down to a misdemeanor on a first offense? I assume a dollar figure like that starts out as a felony. And if there's a prior record it might stay a felony.
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I'm curious to see as well. 5 games would satisfy me. Anything lower and I hope the PAC 12 jumps in.
It'll be interesting to see what Alford advocates for suspension, etc. once they do get back to UCLA. I'm guessing he believes they are innocent, regardless of their admissions and regardless of any proof and that once they're back, people will need to move and quit dwelling on something that's already happened.
Hopefully, if that happens, the PAC 12 jumps in.
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It'll be interesting to see what Alford advocates for suspension, etc. once they do get back to UCLA. I'm guessing he believes they are innocent, regardless of their admissions and regardless of any proof and that once they're back, people will need to move and quit dwelling on something that's already happened.
Hopefully, if that happens, the PAC 12 jumps in.
Alford believing a player of his is innocent? Get out of town.
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I'm curious to see as well. 5 games would satisfy me. Anything lower and I hope the PAC 12 jumps in.
Since this happened outside of the US, the NCAA jurisdiction doesnt apply. UCLA is going to leave this to the international accreditation agency.
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Haven't read the whole thing so maybe this has been brought up.....if this crime didn't include Ball's kid is this nearly the deal it's made out to be. That's not an argument that they should be let off or anything, but since junior Ball was involved there is an automatic escalation.
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This is what we have the State Department for, and it should be their mission to ensure that wherever they are in the world, Americans are treated as the 8th Amendment guarantees. I fully understand they are not in America, and I fully understand China has different standards and laws. However, these are individuals that were raised in a country where they are accustomed to the 8th Amendment. Further, I suspect they were raised to believe things like this would typically be greeted with a far less severe punishment.
It's easy to say the standards change as soon as they leave the country, but what doesn't change is how they were raised and what their expectations are as American citizens. Fair or not, my suspicion is that Liangelo Ball believes he is a superstar and above the law. Mainly because his father constantly acts like his children are superstars and above the law. You can take the kid out of the country, but you can't take 18 years of education, coddling, and Americanism out of the kid.
Should they be punished? Absolutely. Are they subject to Chinese laws? Absolutely. But because they were raised as Americans and are Americans, it should be the duty of our State Department to try to extradite them so they are treated in accordance with what they have been raised to expect, which is no cruel and unusual punishments.
I suspect that both the parents involved and UCLA as an institution failed these kids. They are technically adults, and if they end up punished to the fullest extent of Chinese standards the situation is what it is, but I sincerely hope the State Department does everything they can to get these kids home and find a way to punish them in accordance with our laws.
Where was our State Department when that kid (who was eventually sent home to die) was being tortured in N Korea?
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Where was our State Department when that kid (who was eventually sent home to die) was being tortured in N Korea?
I'm going to go ahead and point out the obvious. We don't have the same rapport with North Korea that we do with China.
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Wandered over to Gottlieb's twitter because I was curious to see if he dared to have a take on this.
Radio silence, except for this:
Doug Gottlieb Verified account @GottliebShow Nov 7 More
Doug Gottlieb Retweeted Oklahoma State Univ.
Isn’t it ironic... don’t ya think
Oklahoma State Univ. Verified account @okstate
Catch the @GottliebShow speak about the importance of ethics tonight @ 5:30. http://okla.st/2zie0Px
25 replies 19 retweets 149 likes
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There is a huge difference between "never did anything dumb" and "stole items worth thousands of dollars".
And if you are asking how I know the stuff they lifted was worth that much, you have never been in a Louis Vuitton store.
I have been to Louis Vuitton stores in China. They are usually of the knock-off or fell-off the truck variety and there is no reason to shoplift because you can probably negotiate for about $15 a purse.
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Where was our State Department when that kid (who was eventually sent home to die) was being tortured in N Korea?
I would be surprised if we had an embassy in North Korea.
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I have been to Louis Vuitton stores in China. They are usually of the knock-off or fell-off the truck variety and there is no reason to shoplift because you can probably negotiate for about $15 a purse.
http://www.louisvuitton.cn/zhs-cn/stores
There is definitely a ton of legit LV stores in China... and there is one in Hangzhu... Just sayin'.
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https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/11/09/liangelo-ball-ucla-basketball-players-china-house-arrest-punishment
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Maybe house arrest with no TV/electronics would be more appropriate.
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Maybe house arrest with no TV/electronics would be more appropriate.
I think any teenager would find that to be cruel and unusual punishment ;D
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20 days in a luxury hotel in China. I guess that will mean they miss at least a few games back in the US
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I would be surprised if we had an embassy in North Korea.
We do not.
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So...does UCLA pay for their 20-day stay in the hotel?
As much as I dislike Lavar, that doesn’t change that I think this honestly seems a reasonable punishment.
Edited to add: the fact that it’s a hotel irks me a bit. Twenty days seems ok...but the hotel thing is a little cushy.
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So...does UCLA pay for their 20-day stay in the hotel?
As much as I dislike Lavar, that doesn’t change that I think this honestly seems a reasonable punishment.
Edited to add: the fact that it’s a hotel irks me a bit. Twenty days seems ok...but the hotel thing is a little cushy.
Yep, a luxury hotel where they can workout, swim, eat and probably more.
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If UCLA has any stones, they will suspend the players for at least a semester upon their return to the states. A normal student getting caught shoplifting at Louis Vitton (assuming this isn't a knock off store) would result in a minimum of probation for multiple semesters. It's different at every school, but most schools don't allow students on probation to represent them in anyway, including as student athletes.
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If UCLA has any stones, they will suspend the players for at least a semester upon their return to the states. A normal student getting caught shoplifting at Louis Vitton (assuming this isn't a knock off store) would result in a minimum of probation for multiple semesters. It's different at every school, but most schools don't allow students on probation to represent them in anyway, including as student athletes.
Why does it matter whether is a Louis Vitton store, a knock off store or the local Target?
Realistically, college athletes get caught doing worse and get off much lighter. I seem to remember a high-profile quarterback getting caught stealing crab legs and facing no suspension. Or a certain Marquette guard who slugged a fellow student and didn't miss any time.
From some of the reactions around here, you'd think these guys had been caught running a human trafficking ring.
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Why does it matter whether is a Louis Vitton store, a knock off store or the local Target?
Realistically, college athletes get caught doing worse and get off much lighter. I seem to remember a high-profile quarterback getting caught stealing crab legs and facing no suspension. Or a certain Marquette guard who slugged a fellow student and didn't miss any time.
From some of the reactions around here, you'd think these guys had been caught running a human trafficking ring.
Completely agree.
The kid should face a suspension from the team. The length should be based on what others have gotten for similar conduct.
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Well location most definitely matters. If I was a woman in Saudi Arabia I could be arrested for being outside alone. If I wore American jeans in the ussr I'd be sent to the gulag.
So a crime is not always a crime everywhere
Of course you are right. But I was speaking in terms of the crime that was committed, though - not a random crime.
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I'm curious to see as well. 5 games would satisfy me. Anything lower and I hope the PAC 12 jumps in.
I thought you were being overly hard-line in your earlier comments, but this seems reasonable.
As a matter of fact, I think it would be OK to give a 10 game ban.
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Wow. It's like we have reached a Kumbayah moment here.
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What would John Wooden do under these circumstances?
My guess is he would dismiss the kids from the team.
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Why does it matter whether is a Louis Vitton store, a knock off store or the local Target?
Value of stolen items is a legitimate aggrevating factor.
Agreed that athletes get away with worse... But that doesnt mean that it should continue. I hear Conduct cases, including theft cases. Shoplifting no matter the value would at minimum result in a semester of probation.... Which would mean an athlete couldn't play during that time. Suspension from the school would be apossibility depending on the facts of the case
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Yeah, I think they should be suspended for a while. A semester seems reasonable to me, but unlikely.
I also think that UCLA should make them pay for any additional expenses that result from this fiasco. Also unlikely.
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I thought you were being overly hard-line in your earlier comments, but this seems reasonable.
As a matter of fact, I think it would be OK to give a 10 game ban.
Its almost like when the punishment is actually doled out we can judge it objectively. It is okay to be a bit more malleable than some other folks around here.
FWIW the 20 day home arrest is being touted as the punishment, but IMO the ban from China for life is WAY worse in terms of future employment for these guys.
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Not accusing anyone here specifically, but sorry guys, this is a racially charged issue. How many of you have ever advocated prison time for white teenage girls in America?
There is plenty of statistical evidence that blacks in America get more prison time than whites for the same crimes. Now we have people on this board who are advocating hard prison time for shoplifting.
Estimates are that somewhere between 11%=20% of the US population have shoplifted at sometime in their lives. Are you calling for them all to serve "hard time"? Should we build more prisons to house all of these teenage "criminals"?
In the last 10 years over 11,000,000 Americans have been caught shoplifting. Should they all be in prison?
So, I guess what I am asking to all of those wanting this kid to got o prison in a foreign dictatorship - do you want us to send millions and millions of american kids to prison? Are you all "Ted Baxter" hardliners? And, theoretically, would Ted Baxter advocate years of hard prison time if his 16 year old daughter stole some lipstick?
Bullchit
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What would John Wooden do under these circumstances?
My guess is he would dismiss the kids from the team.
He'd have Gilbert pay the Chinese (under the table) and we wouldn't even know this happened.
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Bullchit
That post was just for you. I didn't want us to agree on something 2 days in a row ::)
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Give it up to these kids. Pretty hard ta rip off LV. Da chit is locked, der’s security, and yer watched like a hawk. BTW, Al wood bee proud. Always told his playas knot ta steel the hotel ashtrays. Rip off the TV’s instead. Punishment is the same regardless, ai na?
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Give it up to these kids. Pretty hard ta rip off LV. Da chit is locked, der’s security, and yer watched like a hawk. BTW, Al wood bee proud. Always told his playas knot ta steel the hotel ashtrays. Rip off the TV’s instead. Punishment is the same regardless, ai na?
If you're gonna give credit to someone who rips off LV, you might want to save it for someone who does it without getting caught.
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Since this happened outside of the US, the NCAA jurisdiction doesnt apply. UCLA is going to leave this to the international accreditation agency.
(https://i1.wp.com/gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Kanye-West-Clapping.gif?ssl=1)
(http://www.sharegif.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/tumblr_mds9eaB2y51qi9d7mo1_.gif)
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Of the Ball brothers, isn't LaMelo supposed to be the best? I could see Alford not punishing LiAngelo in order to not piss off Lavar and hurt that recruitment.
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Who is paying for the extended stay. If it was any other student, they'd be on their own dime. So if the students aren't paying for it, how is it not an impermissable benefit.
How are they going to attend class during the ordeal? If they cannot attend classes, how do they stay eligible? Again, if this was any other student on a University trip, they would not be permitted to make up lost class time, because they committed a crime.
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Who is paying for the extended stay. If it was any other student, they'd be on their own dime. So if the students aren't paying for it, how is it not an impermissable benefit.
How are they going to attend class during the ordeal? If they cannot attend classes, how do they stay eligible? Again, if this was any other student on a University trip, they would not be permitted to make up lost class time, because they committed a crime.
Unless it’s midterms or finals do you ever really need to go to class? I once literally forgot i was taking a class and aced the final to get a C, just saying 20 days that are standard classes won’t kill them.
The paying for the hotel I️ completely agree with unless lavars footing the bill for his son to stay in a two bedroom with a pullout bed?
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What would John Wooden do under these circumstances?
My guess is he would dismiss the kids from the team.
I don't know how Wooden handled criminal activity. But he handled unethical recruiting by looking the other way and winning championships.
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Since this happened outside of the US, the NCAA jurisdiction doesnt apply. UCLA is going to leave this to the international accreditation agency.
Take a bow
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Unless it’s midterms or finals do you ever really need to go to class? I once literally forgot i was taking a class and aced the final to get a C, just saying 20 days that are standard classes won’t kill them.
The paying for the hotel I️ completely agree with unless lavars footing the bill for his son to stay in a two bedroom with a pullout bed?
At this time of year, they would almost assuredly miss an exam or two. Some Profs also require they attend class. I know some insane profs who dock a letter grade for each missed class above 3.
I agree, though that often going to class is not necessary. I went an entire semester once only attending class on exam days.
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Who is paying for the extended stay. If it was any other student, they'd be on their own dime. So if the students aren't paying for it, how is it not an impermissable benefit.
How are they going to attend class during the ordeal? If they cannot attend classes, how do they stay eligible? Again, if this was any other student on a University trip, they would not be permitted to make up lost class time, because they committed a crime.
Didn't MU stay in Italy last year?
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Unless it’s midterms or finals do you ever really need to go to class? I once literally forgot i was taking a class and aced the final to get a C, just saying 20 days that are standard classes won’t kill them.
The paying for the hotel I️ completely agree with unless lavars footing the bill for his son to stay in a two bedroom with a pullout bed?
What was your major? In many MU classes attendance is mandatory and you will be dropped for excessive absences without prior notice. For a class that meets twice per week, the allowed cap is four. The majority of professors do take attendance and adhere to that standard, especially as an underclassman. So Marquette generally does require one to go to class.
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What was your major? In many MU classes attendance is mandatory and you will be dropped for excessive absences without prior notice. For a class that meets twice per week, the allowed cap is four. The majority of professors do take attendance and adhere to that standard, especially as an underclassman. So Marquette generally does require one to go to class.
Totally depends on the class. I attended exactly 3 History of Jazz classes. First day, Midterm, Final.
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Totally depends on the class. I attended exactly 3 History of Jazz classes. First day, Midterm, Final.
There are examples, of course. Do you ever look back and ask if you cheated yourself out of anything? Not any particular class mind you, but rather the once in a lifetime opportunity?
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What was your major? In many MU classes attendance is mandatory and you will be dropped for excessive absences without prior notice. For a class that meets twice per week, the allowed cap is four. The majority of professors do take attendance and adhere to that standard, especially as an underclassman. So Marquette generally does require one to go to class.
Engineering major, I had a Discrete Math (or some other type of post-calculus math) class where your final would account for 100% of your grade if it was half a letter grade higher than the normal grading rubric of homework, quizzes, midterm, and final. I didn't go to a class all semester between syllabus day and the final.
Like you say, Marquette obviously requires people to go to class, but it's dependent on the professor to enforce.
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Interesting discussion about different approaches and trying not to be judgmental. Apart from actual illness, I missed exactly one class in my 4 years and I told my professor about it beforehand.
I remember what he said. 'Glow, you're going to learn a lot more today doing what you're doing'.
Load in for that night's Romantics concert started at 7 am.
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Interesting discussion about different approaches and trying not to be judgmental. Apart from actual illness, I missed exactly one class in my 4 years and I told my professor about it beforehand.
I remember what he said. 'Glow, you're going to learn a lot more today doing what you're doing'.
Load in for that night's Romantics concert started at 7 am.
Yep, many paths to a degree. My wife was more aligned with you, I think she still resents me a little for not adopting her approach.
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Yep, many paths to a degree. My wife was more aligned with you, I think she still resents me a little for not adopting her approach.
Reason this is top of mind for me is there was just a discussion on a FB page where a kid got tossed for excessive absences. I regularly saw both my kids' syllabus' and they almost always had very strict attendance requirements. Both cut class rarely (like to get in line for Renee Row) but it was never a habit. I know in Nursing it's a huge no-no, probably for good reason.
And may I ask what year you graduated? MU is a different (and far more rigorous) place then when I was there in the early '80s. Dare I say that many guy's study habits in that era wouldn't cut it today.
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There are examples, of course. Do you ever look back and ask if you cheated yourself out of anything? Not any particular class mind you, but rather the once in a lifetime opportunity?
I rarely missed class except this one. I don't think I missed much since the lectures were totally mailed in. I got the music and worksheets for the class and did it on my own. I was a biomedical science major so it wasn't like I could afford to miss much else.
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I rarely missed class except this one. I don't think I missed much since the lectures were totally mailed in. I got the music and worksheets for the class and did it on my own. I was a biomedical science major so it wasn't like I could afford to miss much else.
Yeah, that's pure BS and my kids would complain about that sometimes. At $50k a year I expect professors to take educating their students seriously.
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Reason this is top of mind for me is there was just a discussion on a FB page where a kid got tossed for excessive absences. I regularly saw both my kids' syllabus' and they almost always had very strict attendance requirements. Both cut class rarely (like to get in line for Renee Row) but it was never a habit. I know in Nursing it's a huge no-no, probably for good reason.
And may I ask what year you graduated? MU is a different (and far more rigorous) place then when I was there in the early '80s. Dare I say that many guy's study habits in that era wouldn't cut it today.
Gotta pick your spots. The letter of the law can be enforced at any time and you can't really complain about the outcome.
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Gotta pick your spots. The letter of the law can be enforced at any time and you can't really complain about the outcome.
As is often the case, the kid 'misinformed' her mom about the circumstances so some comments (not the mom's) about 'how unfair and unjust' this particular professor was turned out to be misplaced when the true situation was understood.
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Yep, many paths to a degree. My wife was more aligned with you, I think she still resents me a little for not adopting her approach.
For me, depended on the class. We had a Metallurgy professor who just went over the chapters assigned in the last class so I only went when I had questions about the chapter or there was a quiz or test, and of course to the labs.
I probably went to a little more than 90% of my classes over my four years, and generally only skipped the ones I didn't think I would get anything out of.
Different in the late 70s early 80s than now. No internet and other study aids. You basically had your text books and class. I imagine class is much less mandatory these days.
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For me, depended on the class. We had a Metallurgy professor who just went over the chapters assigned in the last class so I only went when I had questions about the chapter or there was a quiz or test, and of course to the labs.
I probably went to a little more than 90% of my classes over my four years, and generally only skipped the ones I didn't think I would get anything out of.
Different in the late 70s early 80s than now. No internet and other study aids. You basically had your text books and class. I imagine class is much less mandatory these days.
I think the reality is exactly the opposite. If you haven't touched campus in the last couple decades I can assure you it's a completely different place. The stories of guys opening Lenny's, etc.? They wouldn't make it through Frosh year now. The vast majority of these kids work damn hard today.
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There are examples, of course. Do you ever look back and ask if you cheated yourself out of anything? Not any particular class mind you, but rather the once in a lifetime opportunity?
I got a B in a Lit class that I attended once a week and never read any of the books. The prof spoke so in detail about the readings that all I had to do was parrot for the mid-term and final.
It is one of the proudest moments of my college career.
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This is not a race or gender issue. This is about the hazards that US citizens face when they go to a foreign country and commit a crime. I had a friend from high school - white, middle class, female- who was given a five year sentence for possession of heroin in a European country. People need to know that their rights are not the same when they travel abroad.
I don’t advocate for these men to be handed harsh punishment for what they did. But we have to understand that it’s a risk.
I would, however, advocate that UCLA come up with a suitable punishment for these players - who knew what they were doing was wrong - bringing bad publicity and maybe even shame to the program and school. Likely won’t happen; too many $$ in basketball.
I find it interesting that you leave Steve Alford off the list of those to be punished by UCLA. It's his program, he's responsible for making sure that the players he recruits are of good character and that they are properly warned of the dangers of visiting a foreign county. So, why leave him off? Does that seem too severe to you?
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What was your major? In many MU classes attendance is mandatory and you will be dropped for excessive absences without prior notice. For a class that meets twice per week, the allowed cap is four. The majority of professors do take attendance and adhere to that standard, especially as an underclassman. So Marquette generally does require one to go to class.
Physical Therapy
Jk it was marketing. I attended the classes I felt were truly valuable and would help but I don’t feel cheated for choosing to celebrate a buddies bday instead of learning the anthro 1001
The only two I wish I had focused on were Econ and computer science but that’s because I want to do analytics in grad school.
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Yeah, that's pure BS and my kids would complain about that sometimes. At $50k a year I expect professors to take educating their students seriously.
I took the class knowing it would be the easiest class I would ever take for credit. With my major, the amount of electives was very low... The prof was right near the end of his career, but he was an absolute expert in his field... that said, he had been teaching this class for decades and had probably gotten quite lazy... even rumors of old tests flying around being used repeatedly year after year.
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I was doing college wrong apparently. I cut the occasional class but went to probably 95% of them. And I was a comm major!
And while it may not be as much as it used to be, MU is still a party school. I didn't think so while I was there, but then I went to other colleges. A Marquette Tuesday makes a TAMU Friday look like a Bible study meeting
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I was doing college wrong apparently. I cut the occasional class but went to probably 95% of them. And I was a comm major!
And while it may not be as much as it used to be, MU is still a party school. I didn't think so while I was there, but then I went to other colleges. A Marquette Tuesday makes a TAMU Friday look like a Bible study meeting
They're good at multi-tasking. ;D
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Physical Therapy
Jk it was marketing. I attended the classes I felt were truly valuable and would help but I don’t feel cheated for choosing to celebrate a buddies bday instead of learning the anthro 1001
The only two I wish I had focused on were Econ and computer science but that’s because I want to do analytics in grad school.
Of course not. I would say that's still true now. I guess I was focused on those 'I showed up exactly once' type situations. :)
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Bullchit
Yup. If I had to peg 5 people that would claim this was racist, he was the co-leader. The kids admitted to doing this, yet it's racial? Apparently it wasn't racial for the Georgia Tech kids since they didn't do it and are cleared, but let's not talk about that reality. :o
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Unless it’s midterms or finals do you ever really need to go to class? I once literally forgot i was taking a class and aced the final to get a C, just saying 20 days that are standard classes won’t kill them.
The paying for the hotel I️ completely agree with unless lavars footing the bill for his son to stay in a two bedroom with a pullout bed?
Had to attend, mandatory attendance taken. My offspring at MU, also the case. Miss too many classes, you fail.
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Strategically save absent days for March. Sleeping in class still counts as attendance, right? :)
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Had to attend, mandatory attendance taken. My offspring at MU, also the case. Miss too many classes, you fail.
It’s at the professors discretion many said class was mandatory but didn’t actually take attendance
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Totally depends on the class. I attended exactly 3 History of Jazz classes. First day, Midterm, Final.
Back in the day (early 80's), I took what was commonly known as "basketball physics", at the Varsity. Like Hards, I attended three times. Midterm and final were such that the prof allowed a half sheet of paper to be brought in, with as much as one could possibly write on both sides, to be used to aid in taking the exams.
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Yup. If I had to peg 5 people that would claim this was racist, he was the co-leader. The kids admitted to doing this, yet it's racial? Apparently it wasn't racial for the Georgia Tech kids since they didn't do it and are cleared, but let's not talk about that reality. :o
I don't think it was about whether or not they did it, I think his comment was about how some on here were advocating for or even openly cheering for them to get multiple years in a Chinese labor camp.
Personally I think it has more to do with their perceived status as entitled athletes (and who the father of one of them is). But I do think there is a gender component. I could be wrong but I don't think there would have been as many people advocating for a trio of female athletes to get multiple years in a labor camp as there were for this trio of male athletes.
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Any class over 20 people, attendance was never taken.
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Any class over 20 people, attendance was never taken.
Not sure your era PTM but that's an inaccurate statement in this decade. Many large lectures have assigned seating and a TA actually checks. Other techniques as well.
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Any class over 20 people, attendance was never taken.
History of Western Civ in the Varsity Theater with 500 other kids, the TAs took attendance for every class. (2000)
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20 days in a luxury hotel in China. I guess that will mean they miss at least a few games back in the US
A Luxury Hotel in China is probably under $50 a night.
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Lol
Im guessing u have never been to china?
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The Hyatt Regency Hangzhou daily rates are between $257 - $426.
But the $426 includes a bottle of red wine and a box of chocolates
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A Luxury Hotel in China is probably under $50 a night.
The cheapest room at the hotel they are at is listed at about $255/night.
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Well If indeed they have a Life Time Ban from China, it seem it would be prudent to take a tour of a China's Prison if available.
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Not sure your era PTM but that's an inaccurate statement in this decade. Many large lectures have assigned seating and a TA actually checks. Other techniques as well.
2004-2008.
I didn't go to the large classes very often, can confirm, TallTitan will sign off. The only class that was large and took attendace was Physics 5. Large FUPA'ed Jesuit had clickers, we had to answer a question at the of class. The back stairwell would be packed with kids showing up and clicking in just before class let out. Or we would rotate who had to click the rest of the group in. Those classes sucked as you had 5-6 clickers to check in with.
Western Civ, Criminology, Calculus, Diff Eq, Chemistry, Physics 4 all instantly come to mind for large classes that didn't take attendance.
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Interesting discussion about different approaches and trying not to be judgmental. Apart from actual illness, I missed exactly one class in my 4 years and I told my professor about it beforehand.
I remember what he said. 'Glow, you're going to learn a lot more today doing what you're doing'.
Load in for that night's Romantics concert started at 7 am.
Non of my teachers took attendance while I was there’79-‘83 eng.
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I am sure our dear leader will quickly intercede on their behalf.
It's not as if they did something truly heinous ... like take a knee during the national anthem.
well, if 44 wouldn't have traded all of our decent jihadists from gitmo, this would be over except for the rose garden speech EYn'a?
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Can confirm I got docked a half letter grade for a 4th absence in my last semester. 2016 grad.
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Most of the classes for my major didn't take attendance (graduated in '14). If you could skip class and still pass the tests, that was your call. It was only the core classes that everyone was required to take that really seemed to take attendance.
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That smallish arena is about 40% full.
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ESPN has a decent story (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21370055/three-ucla-players-arrested-shoplifting-charges-fly-home-team) with a couple things I hadn't seen:
"A source with firsthand knowledge of the investigation said the players could be in Hangzhou for "a week or two." The source also noted that there is surveillance footage of the players shoplifting from three stores inside of a high-end shopping center next to the team's hotel in Hangzhou, which houses Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Yves Saint Laurent and Salvatore Ferragamo stores."
and
"During the investigation, the school and conference have been receiving assistance from Chinese e-commerce goliath Alibaba, the presenting sponsor of the Pac-12 China Game. On Monday, UCLA and Georgia Tech received a tour of Alibaba in Hangzhou and met Joe Tsai, the executive vice chairman and co-founder of Alibaba. Tsai, who recently reached an agreement in principle to purchase a 49 percent minority stake in the Brooklyn Nets that includes the option to acquire controlling interest of the NBA franchise in 2021, splits his time between Hangzhou and La Jolla, California, where his wife and children reside."
I'm sure it didn't hurt having some help with clout.
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While the whole subject of China and theft is being discussed, I wonder how many Chinese have been locked up for using patented tech without paying royalties. Maybe its time the US has hard time penalties for that.
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I once literally forgot i was taking a class
I have had that dream, or should I say nightmare. That and the one where I forget my class schedule at home the first day of school in high school. The sheer panic I experienced in the dream was as bad as any dream being chased by someone.
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I have had that dream, or should I say nightmare. That and the one where I forget my class schedule at home the first day of school in high school. The sheer panic I experienced in the dream was as bad as any dream being chased by someone.
Quite common.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/radical-teaching/200909/recurring-final-exam-dream
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I have had that dream, or should I say nightmare. That and the one where I forget my class schedule at home the first day of school in high school. The sheer panic I experienced in the dream was as bad as any dream being chased by someone.
On the night before a big test (including the CPA exam) I would have nightmares where I had overslept and missed it. Because the dreams always started with me waking up, it was especially realistic.
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In my four years, I would guesstimate that 10% of my classes took attendance. One large class did - History 1, which was required for freshman Jour students (and many others). Hundreds of kids in the Varsity, with TAs checking us off lists. A look around the Varsity would find dozens (maybe hundreds) of students snoozing every session.
Except for the large Jour 1 class, most of my Jour classes were small, so the instructor didn't have to take attendance. He/she knew who was there and who wasn't.
My general policy: If they don't take attendance and they don't test us on what is being discussed in class and/or they don't make it interesting, I do not need to go. If all they are going to do is read the book out loud and test us on what's in the book, I ain't going.
I skipped a LOT of classes, especially those not in my major.
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I don't think it was about whether or not they did it, I think his comment was about how some on here were advocating for or even openly cheering for them to get multiple years in a Chinese labor camp.
Personally I think it has more to do with their perceived status as entitled athletes (and who the father of one of them is). But I do think there is a gender component. I could be wrong but I don't think there would have been as many people advocating for a trio of female athletes to get multiple years in a labor camp as there were for this trio of male athletes.
You are correct, sir.
I did not say the Chinese reacted in a racist way. I was referring to some of the comments here on Scoop - Demanding hard prison time for shoplifting.
And as you said, gender may be involved as well. I really doubt we would see the hardline comments if this was a cute, white young gymnast who had committed this act.
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You are correct, sir.
I did not say the Chinese reacted in a racist way. I was referring to some of the comments here on Scoop - Demanding hard prison time for shoplifting.
And as you said, gender may be involved as well. I really doubt we would see the hardline comments if this was a cute, white young gymnast who had committed this act.
Not racial but because of the store you can assume that the items constitute more than shoplifting (as shoplifting equates to petty theft) if my above assumption is true that it would constitute grand theft then I would believe hard time is just no matter gender race or location. If my above assumption was not true then be all means house arrest and a fine seems like Justice to me.
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The 3 were released and ordered not to leave their hotel for the time being.
Probably lucky for them Trump is already there.
Yep it's official.....in the world we live in teal no longer denotes sarcasm
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/president-trump-lobbied-liangelo-ball-ucla-teammates-according-white-house-175801439.html (https://www.yahoo.com/sports/president-trump-lobbied-liangelo-ball-ucla-teammates-according-white-house-175801439.html)
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You are correct, sir.
I did not say the Chinese reacted in a racist way. I was referring to some of the comments here on Scoop - Demanding hard prison time for shoplifting.
And as you said, gender may be involved as well. I really doubt we would see the hardline comments if this was a cute, white young gymnast who had committed this act.
I don't know about that.... that McKayla Maroney is really starting to annoy me lately.
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Olympic gymnasts are rarely punished in China since Chinese law is actually quite lenient towards children under 10.
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I thought this was pretty dumb when i first heard it like you are in a whole different country all these kids are 6'6 and black so everyone will be looking at them when they walk into the place
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And as you said, gender may be involved as well. I really doubt we would see the hardline comments if this was a cute, white young gymnast who had committed this act.
Because U.S. gymnasts have had it so easy? There are quite a number of them who wish a shoplifting accusation was the worst thing that has happened to them in their sports career.
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Because U.S. gymnasts have had it so easy? There are quite a number of them who wish a shoplifting accusation was the worst thing that has happened to them in their sports career.
Interesting how they are believed - but women in Alabama who were assaulted at the same age are not.
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Interesting how they are believed - but women in Alabama who were assaulted at the same age are not.
WTF, Dude?
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Interesting how they are believed - but women in Alabama who were assaulted at the same age are not.
30 to 40 years later .....1 month before an election both sides of the "swamp" do not want this guy in the Senate because he is not one of their "crooked lemmings".....
Don't be naive.....
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30 to 40 years later .....1 month before an election both sides of the "swamp" do not want this guy in the Senate because he is not one of their "crooked lemmings".....
Don't be naive.....
Lifelong Republicans. These women didn't lie. They weren't set up. Moore is a turd and these allegations have been around forever.
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BTW. Four women who have never met one another. A bunch of corroborating witnesses.
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BTW. Four women who have never met one another. A bunch of corroborating witnesses.
Anyone who has even remedial knowledge of how to read a newspaper article can see that the Post story is legit. There's no way you find that many unconnected parties (4 victims and 30+ witnesses) to a story. That is one of the most well-sourced articles you will ever see. The Post took a lot of care in how they wrote that. Absolutely, 100%, no doubt it happened. Anyone saying otherwise is illiterate or just taking Moore's word while intentionally ignoring the article.
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Anyone who has even remedial knowledge of how to read a newspaper article can see that the Post story is legit. There's no way you find that many unconnected parties (4 victims and 30+ witnesses) to a story. That is one of the most well-sourced articles you will ever see. The Post took a lot of care in how they wrote that. Absolutely, 100%, no doubt it happened. Anyone saying otherwise is illiterate or just taking Moore's word while intentionally ignoring the article.
Not that i disagree, however, this is americ and everyone should be assumed innocent until they have their day in court. With that being said Moore should step aside for the sake of the election, and if or when he clears his name he can run again and would assuredly win.
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Lifelong Republicans. These women didn't lie. They weren't set up. Moore is a turd and these allegations have been around forever.
let's see here, anita j.(put a little ice on that honey) paula j.(settled a lawsuit) kathleen w.(nbc chitcans the interview) these women didn't lie. they weren't set up. bubba is a turd. these allegations have been around forever...then hrc, the champion of womans rights, came to the rescue :o
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let's see here, anita j.(put a little ice on that honey) paula j.(settled a lawsuit) kathleen w.(nbc chitcans the interview) these women didn't lie. they weren't set up. bubba is a turd. these allegations have been around forever...then hrc, the champion of womans rights, came to the rescue :o
This needs to be locked.
It also is NOT a political thing....is IS a male thing. The issue is how MEN treat others and use sex/physicality to intimidate and abuse people. Making it political is both belittling the victims and ignoring the problem. All the abusers are vile and need to be held accountable. No: "but this other thing happened....", "here's one example where a woman did it so both sides are to blame....", "we need more information...."
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tell that to your buddy sully before he throws the red meat out there
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Interesting how they are believed - but women in Alabama who were assaulted at the same age are not.
Well in one thread you've played the race card, then the gender card, and the political card. Good job.
If Hope Solo had done what they players had done in China, I would beg for her to get the full book thrown at her no differently than these three guys. Race and gender have nothing to do with it, but some people just can't wait to go there. Yet others here are accused of playing victim card? LOL
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Lifelong Republicans. These women didn't lie. They weren't set up. Moore is a turd and these allegations have been around forever.
False. One worked on Hillary and Biden campaigns and already caught deleting Facebook posts (screen captures are out there) as she most certainly wasn't a Republican.
Now, I don't know if this guy did it or not. I do find the double standards amazing, absolutely amazing. Women that accused former POTUS of raping them are not to be believed. These women are. The double standards on both sides are a disgrace.
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Throw the punks and LaVar in the Chineese jail. Kids knew exactly what
they were doing.
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let's see here, anita j.(put a little ice on that honey) paula j.(settled a lawsuit) kathleen w.(nbc chitcans the interview) these women didn't lie. they weren't set up. bubba is a turd. these allegations have been around forever...then hrc, the champion of womans rights, came to the rescue :o
At least 4never is purposefully writing in an incomprehensible manner.
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False. One worked on Hillary and Biden campaigns and already caught deleting Facebook posts (screen captures are out there) as she most certainly wasn't a Republican.
Now, I don't know if this guy did it or not. I do find the double standards amazing, absolutely amazing. Women that accused former POTUS of raping them are not to be believed. These women are. The double standards on both sides are a disgrace.
Oh good, what Scoop needed was Chicos to return from his 27th banning to try to give equivalence to a PEDOPHILE. Fantastic.
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let's see here, anita j.(put a little ice on that honey) paula j.(settled a lawsuit) kathleen w.(nbc chitcans the interview) these women didn't lie. they weren't set up. bubba is a turd. these allegations have been around forever...then hrc, the champion of womans rights, came to the rescue :o
I don't know why Bill is relevant, but yes, he was at best a womanizer guilty of sexual harassment of Lewinsky (even if she came on to him, that's an abuse of power) and at worst a rapist (and I don't doubt it).
The difference is that he would never make it on the Democratic ticket today while the other side gleefully denies pedophiles and elects admitted serial sexual abusers.
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Well in one thread you've played the race card, then the gender card, and the political card. Good job.
If Hope Solo had done what they players had done in China, I would beg for her to get the full book thrown at her no differently than these three guys. Race and gender have nothing to do with it, but some people just can't wait to go there. Yet others here are accused of playing victim card? LOL
It also is NOT a political thing....is IS a male thing. The issue is how MEN treat others and use sex/physicality to intimidate and abuse people. Making it political is both belittling the victims and ignoring the problem. All the abusers are vile and need to be held accountable. No: "but this other thing happened....", "here's one example where a woman did it so both sides are to blame....", "we need more information...."
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False. One worked on Hillary and Biden campaigns and already caught deleting Facebook posts (screen captures are out there) as she most certainly wasn't a Republican.
Now, I don't know if this guy did it or not. I do find the double standards amazing, absolutely amazing. Women that accused former POTUS of raping them are not to be believed. These women are. The double standards on both sides are a disgrace.
It also is NOT a political thing....is IS a male thing. The issue is how MEN treat others and use sex/physicality to intimidate and abuse people. Making it political is both belittling the victims and ignoring the problem. All the abusers are vile and need to be held accountable. No: "but this other thing happened....", "here's one example where a woman did it so both sides are to blame....", "we need more information...."
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tell that to your buddy sully before he throws the red meat out there
It also is NOT a political thing....is IS a male thing. The issue is how MEN treat others and use sex/physicality to intimidate and abuse people. Making it political is both belittling the victims and ignoring the problem. All the abusers are vile and need to be held accountable. No: "but this other thing happened....", "here's one example where a woman did it so both sides are to blame....", "we need more information...."
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It also is NOT a political thing....is IS a male thing. The issue is how MEN treat others and use sex/physicality to intimidate and abuse people. Making it political is both belittling the victims and ignoring the problem. All the abusers are vile and need to be held accountable. No: "but this other thing happened....", "here's one example where a woman did it so both sides are to blame....", "we need more information...."
i can agree with that wholeheartedly. right sully?
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It also is NOT a political thing....is IS a male thing. The issue is how MEN treat others and use sex/physicality to intimidate and abuse people. Making it political is both belittling the victims and ignoring the problem. All the abusers are vile and need to be held accountable. No: "but this other thing happened....", "here's one example where a woman did it so both sides are to blame....", "we need more information...."
38% of sexual assault victims are male. The vast majority of people sexually assaulting men are women.
These are current statistics, every year the numbers of males who were assaulted increases as the stigma associated with it declines. It is a people problem. A lot of humans are terrible creatures.
Saying this is a male thing, perpetuates stigmas stopping men who have been assaulted from seeking help.
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WTF is wrong with you people?