coaching & recruiting

[bilsu]

Four years ago Crean lost his big recruiting target to Illinois. Illinois was the hottest program in the country, mostly because of Bill Self. Yesturday Pruitt missed game winning free throws at the end of regulation and first overtime and Illinois lossed. Illinois is now 10-14. Marquette is 16-5 and I believe MU is playing in the tougher conference. While we like to win every game, the fact is Crean is doing a very good job. I have to believe it is much easier to recruit for Illinois than it is MU. With one more win Crean will have guaranteed 9 straight winning seasons. There are only about 40 schools that fit that catagory. Now in the same time UW has gone to the NCAA tournament every year, so we have room for improvement. I am not blind to that. But we are not as bad as the people on this board make us out to be.

[Ahoya06]

Well said. I think while Crean has his shortcomings, so does every coach, and I for one am glad to have him at the helm of this team.

[The Lens]

All good points bilsu.  I'm not blind to all the good things MU has with TC.  I think my concern and the concern of others is aside from 2003 we have always peaked before Feb 1.  I know everyone's games get tougher in Feb & March so I'm not so much talking wins and losses as opposed to how well we play.  There have been some Nov & Dec where we are fantastic (peak). 

A lot of MU fan see opportunity (that TC has given us): Ranked, upper echelon of Big East, decent seed etc etc and just want it to play out in a positive sense, but worry that we may be headed to another one & done or worse. 

Believe me, I hope to god that PRN, myself, and all the other "haters" can eat crow...we want to more than anything.  Nothing would taste so sweet. 

[Marquette84]

All good points bilsu.  I'm not blind to all the good things MU has with TC.  I think my concern and the concern of others is aside from 2003 we have always peaked before Feb 1. 

Always?

2004 we were sitting 4-3 on February 1st.  We won four of our last 5 to finish 8-8.  I'd say we peaked at the end of the season.

2005 we were 3-4 on February 1st.  We finished 7-9.  Hard to say that there was any peak at all.

2006 we were sitting 6-3 in the Big East on February 1.  We won 4 of our last 5 to earn a bye in the Big East tournament.  I'd say we peaked in late February/early March.

2007 you might have a case, then again, the schedule got a lot tougher.  Your "peak" included wins over the 13th, 14th and 15th place teams.  I would argue that we peaked with the win over Pittsburgh on the final day of the season.

[NavinRJohnson]

Yeah, MU fading at the end of the year is as much of a myth as man causing global warming or the existence of attractive lesbians. If you want to say MU has not done well in post-season play, you'll get very little argument from me, but to say MU struggles to the finish line, ignores the facts.

[mu_hilltopper]

All good points bilsu.  I'm not blind to all the good things MU has with TC.  I think my concern and the concern of others is aside from 2003 we have always peaked before Feb 1.

Always?

2004 we were sitting 4-3 on February 1st.  We won four of our last 5 to finish 8-8.  I'd say we peaked at the end of the season.

2005 we were 3-4 on February 1st.  We finished 7-9.  Hard to say that there was any peak at all.

2006 we were sitting 6-3 in the Big East on February 1.  We won 4 of our last 5 to earn a bye in the Big East tournament.  I'd say we peaked in late February/early March.

2007 you might have a case, then again, the schedule got a lot tougher.  Your "peak" included wins over the 13th, 14th and 15th place teams.  I would argue that we peaked with the win over Pittsburgh on the final day of the season.

You could spin those numbers a different way, of course.  Add in the post-conference-season games, and it doesn't look very good.

2004 we were sitting 4-3 on February 1st.  We won four of our last 5 to finish 8-8.   Then lost 2 of our the last 4 post-season games. (Loss in CUSA, win 2 NIT, then lost.)   Won 4 of last 6. 


2005 we were 3-4 on February 1st.  We finished 7-9.  Then lost the next two post-season games.  .. to end losing 5 of the last 7.


2006 we were sitting 6-3 in the Big East on February 1.  We won 4 of our last 5 to earn a bye in the Big East tournament.  Then lost the next two post-season games, or otherwise stated, we lost our last 3 of 4 games.  Ok, stated more generously, we won 4 of our last 9.  Won 5 of our last 11.

2007 - Lost 6 of last 9 games.

--

I fully understand that the level of competition increases dramatically as the season ends.   Hooray.   Good thing there's a column for "quality losses" in the record books.

[bilsu]

There is no way around the fact that we have done bad in conference tournament play. Especiality, since we usually have been the higher seed in games we lost. That is also the case in the NCAA's. I believe it has to do with MU's offensive style. In November when team's defenses are weak, MU's one on one style is extremely hard to stop. By March most teams are much better defensively and know how to stop guard penatration. If you look at MU's final four run they had several players that were hitting three point shots. Now that could happen for this team, if Culliban and Fitz break out of their slumps. Otherwise the teams will just stop our guards with strong team defense.

[Big Papi]

I always hate hearing that we fade at the end of season because I don't think it is true.  We have not been successful in the post season and we all wish we could do better but the only recent post season game that really bothers me is the Michigan St. game last year.  The Alabama game was very entertaining against a team just as talented as us where we could have advanced if Novak hits a wide open 3.  The conference tourny game that year we lost as four seed to a better 5 seeded team in Georgetown.  Last year we lose McNeal but won a conference tourny game against the home team before losing to a good Pitt team.  Hopefully this year things even out a bit and we win 2 games in both season ending tournys so we can put this arguement to bed once and for all.

[lovebaroney]

Four years ago Crean lost his big recruiting target to Illinois. Illinois was the hottest program in the country, mostly because of Bill Self. Yesturday Pruitt missed game winning free throws at the end of regulation and first overtime and Illinois lossed. Illinois is now 10-14. Marquette is 16-5 and I believe MU is playing in the tougher conference. While we like to win every game, the fact is Crean is doing a very good job. I have to believe it is much easier to recruit for Illinois than it is MU. With one more win Crean will have guaranteed 9 straight winning seasons. There are only about 40 schools that fit that catagory. Now in the same time UW has gone to the NCAA tournament every year, so we have room for improvement. I am not blind to that. But we are not as bad as the people on this board make us out to be.

I agree he's doing a good job, but I don't think it would be easier to recruit to Springfield, IL.  Marquette is much more urban, is primarily a basketball school, has great facilities and play in a better basketball conference.   

[NCMUFan]

I am making no excuses for tournaments but if you win one game in the tournament you are already doing better than half the teams in the tournament.  Also unless you are the champion, you are guaranteed to take a loss in a tournament.  Also the field is typically stronger in a tournament.  But anyways, I would love to see us do well in the Big East and NCAA tournament.  Who doesn't?

[muhoops1]

The problem is that MU hasn't really progressed to any significant degree.  Crean is paid like a top coach.  MU hasn't necessarily played like a top program.  I get a little frustrated when people immediately run to Crean's defense with comments like "it's not his fault".  He has everything to do with this program...from the introductions to the play on the court.   It is his program and their play is a reflection of him and his staff.

I'm not saying he is a bad person, or he doesn't want to win.  However, he is paid a premium to do his job.  People pay a premium to watch his product.  The end result is frustration.  The purveying opinion amongst MU fans is that this team should play better, and the end result (= wins) should be better.  Something is rotten in Denmark people.

[mviale]

the problem hoops - is you are still thinking of Marquette as an Independent or in the Great Midwest. We are in the BE now and we have progressed in talent and coaching, but you dont see it as we have never played this level of competition in the past 25 years.

[CWSKeith]

The problem is that MU hasn't really progressed to any significant degree.   Crean is paid like a top coach.  MU hasn't necessarily played like a top program.  I get a little frustrated when people immediately run to Crean's defense with comments like "it's not his fault".  He has everything to do with this program...from the introductions to the play on the court.   It is his program and their play is a reflection of him and his staff.

I'm glad you mentioned this, because I've been thinking about this the past week or so.  Who on this team has gotten better from last season?  I can think of one guy who has CLEARLY gotten better -- Hayward is quite obviously way ahead of where he was at at this time last year.  Anybody else?  I'm sure there are small things where guys have improved -- James' jump shot looks a little better (does that show in his shooting statistics?  I'm honestly not sure...); Cubillan seems to have improved a bit going when going to the basket.  There's (obviously) some things I'm missing, but shouldn't there be more clear cut things that even your average fan could point to and say, "X has improved mightily at Y."  

I just have so many questions about this team...  why are we so freaking inconsistent?  Personally speaking, I've been waiting for this season for...  well, basically since I made my decision to come here (so in reality not that long ago -- a bit more than a year-and-a-half).  This was the year where 'the big three' would finally be upperclassmen...  We didn't lose anyone (of importance) from last year...  Hayward had a year under his belt, we looked (relatively) deep with Cubillan and Acker coming off the bench.  You figured one of Fitzgerald or Barro would take a step forward and at least be an average-ish player who you could count on to come off the bench.  It can't be all 'luck' that basically no one has significantly progressed (besides Hayward) -- that's on Crean's shoulders.

As for the people saying that it's my fault for having expectations that are too high...  I don't buy that at all.  I didn't come into the season with National title aspirations, and I doubt many others did.  Last year we made the tournament and were returning everyone of importance.  My expectations were for a top five Big East finish (still obtainable, although it's probably going to require a 5-2 finish down the stretch) and a win in the tournament (maybe two).  That's not to say this cannot happen, but as of right now that's tough to imagine happening.

It certainly makes this game against Seton Hall very interesting (not in a good way).  I'm not one to say things like this, but at Seton Hall is as much of a 'must-win' as I can think of.  Our guys BEST not be overlooking that game -- they're nowhere near good enough to get away with it and still pull out a victory.

[mviale]

good rationale post!

[bilsu]

Last year the Big East league was a very young league. Because of that the whole league has improved. That is why you do not see MU's improvement. The one thing that has amazed me is that against the better Big East teams (with the exception of Notre Dame) MU does not have much, if any, of a quickness advantage. Because of that MU does not get many fast break baskets they need to win. I certainly think it is fair to criticise Crean for not recruiting enough big men. But I do not see how any other coach would win more games than he does with the players he has. The worst team he has lost to was a road game at West Virginia. Now if Rutgers comes in here and beats us like they beat Pitt, that would upset me. I expect Georgetown to beat us, because they are better than us. I am not sure about Pitt. Blair is going to cause of significant problems, but I am not sure Pitt has enough otherwise to beat us here. 

[willie warrior]

Let's face it Sports fans, Crean's capabilities are:
x's and o's coaching: below average
motivating players: below average
recruiting: average at best. No big men and look at all the tweeners transferring.
Not bad for making about 2 million a year, and recognized by most posters as a god on par with Brett Favre almost, as far as idol worship.

How does his resume stack up to Bo Ryan--who MU could have had twice in the past?

[Big Papi]

what?  So Craen is the luckiest coach on the face of he planet?  He coaches us to the final four.  In our first two years of the Big East we finish 4th and either 5 or 6 last year.  This season is not over yet and we are in the top half this year.  We are making the NCAA tourny and are more often than not ranked in the top 25.  And Crean is below average coaching and motivation and average at best recruiting?  Yea okay.   

Oh and the whole he gets paid like a top coach so I expect Championships is a joke as well.  Salary has nothing to do with any discussion related to if TC is or is not a good coach.  Get over it.  It does not matter if we are or are not in a position to overpay for a qualified coach.  The university is the only one who is in a position to make that determination and they will make whatever changes they feel need to be made but for us fans, salary does not matter.  Frankly TC's salary should not be brought up.

[Marquette84]

You could spin those numbers a different way, of course.  Add in the post-conference-season games, and it doesn't look very good.

Yes, but that wasn't the argument.  The argument was that the team peaked on February 1st.

Arguably, the team peaks at the end of the regular season. 

[The Lens]

sjs...i don't sleep w/ my media guide so I'm not as well prepared for this arguement as you but let me put it this way:  there's a reason TC raises great alaskan banners, we ALWAYS PEAK EARLY (except 2003, the only year you & John Dodds had season tix)

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Although I thought we played fairly well yesterday, no rational person could think we are playing as well now as we were at the beginning of the season. We played a great game in the last game a season ago, but we were coming off losses in 3 of our previous 4 -- including to DePaul -- and we played an atrocious game against Michigan State, a team Crean should have been intimately familiar with.

We can still rebound and finish strong THIS YEAR, but by suggesting we have a history of strong finishes, SJS is once again proving he's a shill and likely has some very strong ties to MU.

[willie warrior]

what?  So Craen is the luckiest coach on the face of he planet?  He coaches us to the final four.  In our first two years of the Big East we finish 4th and either 5 or 6 last year.  This season is not over yet and we are in the top half this year.  We are making the NCAA tourny and are more often than not ranked in the top 25.  And Crean is below average coaching and motivation and average at best recruiting?  Yea okay.   

Oh and the whole he gets paid like a top coach so I expect Championships is a joke as well.  Salary has nothing to do with any discussion related to if TC is or is not a good coach.  Get over it.  It does not matter if we are or are not in a position to overpay for a qualified coach.  The university is the only one who is in a position to make that determination and they will make whatever changes they feel need to be made but for us fans, salary does not matter.  Frankly TC's salary should not be brought up.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Let's face it Sports fans, Crean's capabilities are:
x's and o's coaching: below average
motivating players: below average
recruiting: average at best. No big men and look at all the tweeners transferring.
Not bad for making about 2 million a year, and recognized by most posters as a god on par with Brett Favre almost, as far as idol worship.

How does his resume stack up to Bo Ryan--who MU could have had twice in the past?

And if Tom Crean was seeded 2nd and lost in the second round, you would bitch a fit.

And if Tom Crean was playing NCAA tournament games  90 miles from campus with 18000 of our own fans and couldn't win them you would be bitching a fit.

Give me a break, MU NEVER could have had Bo Ryan.  He has paid into the state system for 30 years and a pension that is out of this world, he was NEVER going to take any other job outside of the UW system.

Sell you absurdity elsewhere.

[Marquette84]

Although I thought we played fairly well yesterday, no rational person could think we are playing as well now as we were at the beginning of the season. We played a great game in the last game a season ago, but we were coming off losses in 3 of our previous 4 -- including to DePaul -- and we played an atrocious game against Michigan State, a team Crean should have been intimately familiar with.

I stand behind my comment that we peaked in the College game day against Pitt last year.  I thought that was the team's best performance--especially given the injury to McNeal and the importance of the game.

In your typical fashion, you can crap on me, but you can't come up with a cogent argument of your own.   Which game do YOU think we peaked on?  I responded to someone who felt that our two point win at South Florida was the peak of the season.  I disagree with that point.  But if you think that game represented the best that Marquette had to offer, say so.

As for bringing up Michgian State, I don't know how that has any relevance to the story at all.  I didn't say that we played our best game against them--I said it was against Pitt two games earlier. 

And I'll stand behind my statement that our best stretch of 2005-06 was winning four of the last five to take the 4th place bye.  Again, you complain about me without offering any ideas of your own.  So tell me, when do YOU think the peak of the season was in 2006-07?  What stretch do you think was MU's best performance in that first Big East season?

And how about 2003-04--MU is sitting with a 3-7 record in CUSA, and we win four of the last five to finish 8-8.   I'm not sure it's "shilling" for MU to suggest that our best stretch was the 4 out of 5 to end the regular season.  But again, YOU didn't share YOUR thoughts on what our best stretch was. 


As for my ties to MU, at least I have some ties as a fan and alum.  Based on your comments I think you are probably an shill for Mike Deane still bitter than Tom Crean has easily outperformed him.  It's time to get over it.