Summer topic: Why doesn't MU

[rugbydrummer]

White soxs is a baseball team.  White socks is what you wear ... something like this ...

sox is a variant of the plural of sock.... fyi....

[Litehouse]

Angry Birds definitely needs to catch on as an informal moniker of some kind, someone needs to tell Homer.

I'd love to see a t-shirt that says "Angry Birds" with the Golden Eagle and Cardinals logos.  It would probably sell just as well in Louisville.

[buckchuckler]

Please just let it go...  Can't we get a good old fashioned Tom Crean thread...

[LAMUfan]

crean sucks 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Hyperbole kills kittens!!

Maybe...of course in 100 years none of us will be here to know if I was right.   

But quickly, do you think more people in this country know or have heard of the Seminoles because of Florida State University or from another means?  I'd bet both of our lives that if FSU dropped Seminoles that name\brand and understanding they are an Indian nation would drop considerably as a result.  The Seminole nation gets it...smart people. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

You are suffering delusions of adequacy if you think your posts exhibit common sense. 

You keep reading them and commenting on them...

[GGGG]

But quickly, do you think more people in this country know or have heard of the Seminoles because of Florida State University or from another means?  I'd bet both of our lives that if FSU dropped Seminoles that name\brand and understanding they are an Indian nation would drop considerably as a result.  The Seminole nation gets it...smart people. 

Sure, but do most people know anything about the Seminole nation other than its association with Florida State?

Look, I don't have a problem with most native nicknames, but the idea that people might not know that Native Americans even existed because of the NCAAs action is silly.  First, I am fairly certain they teach more substantive stuff about Natives in the classroom.  And second, most of the imagry used is at worst borderline offensive (Chief Illiniwek's last dance) and at best silly (Chief Osceloa riding out throwing a spear at mid-field.)

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

All universities are run by politically correct, liberal, not-in-the-real-world apologists. Why do you not hear a hue and cry about the Blackhawks, Braves, Indians or others? Because pro teams don't give a crap about what some professor says about them. They care about their fans. Hell, even the Wizards are entertaining the idea of changing back to Bullets after being forced by the losers in Washington DC to change their name.

Based on reports of Fr. Wild's complicity in some of the Catholic Church scandals, I suggest we take a page from the Nashville hockey team and call ourselves the Predators. We could wear vestments for warm-ups and black and white uniforms.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Sure, but do most people know anything about the Seminole nation other than its association with Florida State?

Look, I don't have a problem with most native nicknames, but the idea that people might not know that Native Americans even existed because of the NCAAs action is silly.  First, I am fairly certain they teach more substantive stuff about Natives in the classroom.  And second, most of the imagry used is at worst borderline offensive (Chief Illiniwek's last dance) and at best silly (Chief Osceloa riding out throwing a spear at mid-field.)

Aren't they tied together?  I know my kids have asked "What's a Seminole" when we've watched FSU play.  I told them to look it up, educate themselves....which they did.  So there is one example of kids learning about a Native American tribe because of the FSU nickname and I would gather that has happened on more than a few occasions.  People will not seek to know what exists if they don't even have a taste for that which they should pursue to begin with.

My point, hyperbole and all, is that our continued reduction of usage of some names that a SMALL handful of people find objectionable (yet these same people find other things as perfectly acceptable) will reduce the pool of people that are exposed to their very existence.  I have no doubt of that.  Sports fans throughout the USA know the Seminoles for a variety of reasons, and one of the major ones is their relationship with FSU.  I'm sure students living in Florida are educated on the Seminole nation from Kindergarten through 12th grade, but the rest of the country isn't.  As a result, they lose out.  Here in California my kids are taught about the Gabrieleno and Mojave tribes mostly.  It becomes a very localized teaching...again, the Seminoles are a smart people to continue this association with FSU that makes their tribal name known throughout the country and not just in Florida and Oklahoma.

There is no reason why a name cannot be used respectfully that preserves dignity and can also be used as a proud nickname of a sports team. 

[Lennys Tap]

There is no reason why a name cannot be used respectfully that preserves dignity and can also be used as a proud nickname of a sports team. 

Proof posiyive that you can be spot on, succinct and borderline eloquent. I knew you had it in you.

[GGGG]

There is no reason why a name cannot be used respectfully that preserves dignity and can also be used as a proud nickname of a sports team. 

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

However, I just don't think it is educationally important in the grand scheme of things.  I don't know more about the Seminole nation because of Florida State...I don't know more about Ireland because of Notre Dame...I don't know more about the Netherlands because of Hofstra.  When you use hyperbole, it just weakens your argument.

[ringout]

There is no reason why a name cannot be used respectfully that preserves dignity and can also be used as a proud nickname of a sports team. 

Amen.

[JWags85]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but the whole "people know us as the Golden Eagles now" is a bit overstated.  I have one of the gold Marquette Warriors shirts with 90s logo on it and I honestly get at least 1-2 comments every time I wear it without fail.  I have other Marquette gear that usually doesn't elicit such a reaction.  I was in Vegas this past weekend and wore it out one day.  Honestly, in 4-5 hours, I got at least 10 "Warriors, hell yea" comments, high fives, and people wanting to know where it was.  People love the Warriors.

[Henry Sugar]

I would embrace Marquette Warriors with the Eagle as the mascot, just like TallTitan's former avatar.  And I never buy anything with the chicken on it, even for the kids.

It's a reasonable compromise.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Why don't they just change it back to the original name?

Warriors was created and forced upon everybody just like Golden Eagles.

Just sayin'.

[4everwarriors]

So, you're down with the Pink Pigeons?

[Bocephys]

So, you're down with the Pink Pigeons?

I'd wear that shirt.

[TallTitan34]

It's ironic that if they changed the name to Warriors with a different image, there would bee less indian imagery out there then there is now.

I would embrace Marquette Warriors with the Eagle as the mascot, just like TallTitan's former avatar.  And I never buy anything with the chicken on it, even for the kids.

It's a reasonable compromise.

[Lennys Tap]

Why don't they just change it back to the original name?

Warriors was created and forced upon everybody just like Golden Eagles.

Just sayin'.

Being "forced" to eat a medium rare 2" thick ribeye is hardly the same thing as having a sh&t sandwich jammed down your throat.

Just sayin'.

[mu03eng]

My rational(IMHO) thought process leads me to conclude that this is about money and that is one of the things that really sticks in my throat about this, the board sold out.

Here is how I draw this conclusion, admittedly assumptions but I think reasonable ones:
-If you were to associate the Warriors nickname with the chicken hawk, the eagle becomes much more viable and the warriors is no longer associated with Native Americans (see Golden State).  No one has yet presented evidence that this wouldn't happen.
-Merchandise sales would explode providing all sorts of money.  I'd love to see the statistics on the sale of golden eagle merch versus mascot neutral merch.  I'm betting its over well over 50% non-mascot otherwise there would be more stuff out with the eagle.
-Donations from the pro-warrior crowd would likely equal if not exceed lost donations from anti-warrior crowd(there is a caveat on this statement that I will get to).
-The status quo actually keeps the Native American imagery alive because it is seen, especially by college students as a form of rebellion.  Like with anything else kids do, approve of it and the enthusiasm dwindles.
-There was no real outcry at the time to change it and very limited outcry against warriors as a result of the graduation speech that kicked this all up again.
-The only stated reason for not going back is that at least one person would be offended and we would not go back as long as it is offensive to someone.

So based on those assumptions, the only conclusion I can draw is there is some either on-going donation tied to not going back or some sort of significant/huge one-time donation that occurred in the past which was negotiated such that legally binds us from going back to warriors.  In my mind, I view this as a bribe and I have a real issue with that.  This seems to be the only way to balance out all the money and alumni rejoice that would come with a change back. 

Whats more, since I think this to be true, I also find it very concerning that the board/Father Wild don't reveal this as the true reason.  So basically, if I'm correct, they were bribed to change the name and are now lying to us about the real reason.  If they feel morally sound on their decision they should reveal it, if not I feel like it de-legitimizes Marquette's ability to educate students about right and wrong.

Not saying I'm right, but I haven't seen anything that would change my opinion.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but the whole "people know us as the Golden Eagles now" is a bit overstated.  I have one of the gold Marquette Warriors shirts with 90s logo on it and I honestly get at least 1-2 comments every time I wear it without fail.  I have other Marquette gear that usually doesn't elicit such a reaction.  I was in Vegas this past weekend and wore it out one day.  Honestly, in 4-5 hours, I got at least 10 "Warriors, hell yea" comments, high fives, and people wanting to know where it was.  People love the Warriors.

When I lived in Madison for a summer, I wore my Warriors t-shirt often and probably had a similar response at least every other time I wore it. From the heart of buckyville.

[GGGG]

So based on those assumptions, the only conclusion I can draw is there is some either on-going donation tied to not going back or some sort of significant/huge one-time donation that occurred in the past which was negotiated such that legally binds us from going back to warriors.  In my mind, I view this as a bribe and I have a real issue with that. 

A bribe implies something dishonest or illegal.  There was nothing of the sort going on with this.

MU could have simply turned down the donation but obviously felt that the long-term implications of accepting the gift were better than the long-term implications of ditching the Warrior name.  I mean, when the University accepted naming its College of Arts & Sciences after Helen Way Klingler, was that a bribe too?

And the Board / Fr. Wild has no reason to release to anyone - not even an ethical one.  They have a higher ethical obligation to keep confidential obligations confidential rather than release them to another party.

[mu03eng]

A bribe implies something dishonest or illegal.  There was nothing of the sort going on with this.

MU could have simply turned down the donation but obviously felt that the long-term implications of accepting the gift were better than the long-term implications of ditching the Warrior name.  I mean, when the University accepted naming its College of Arts & Sciences after Helen Way Klingler, was that a bribe too?

And the Board / Fr. Wild has no reason to release to anyone - not even an ethical one.  They have a higher ethical obligation to keep confidential obligations confidential rather than release them to another party.

While ordinarily I would agree with you, however then why trot out these clearly untrue reasons for the name change?  If they can't reveal the reason for the change don't make one up.  To lie about it is what takes it to the bribe level for me, if you can't be honest about your reasons, by definition you are dishonest.  Its kind of like the Weiner thing....its not so much the action but the lying.

And you speak as if you know, which galls me further.  So it is absolutely a money thing, and that bothers me, they pretend its a principal thing and it seems to not be at all.  In my book no matter how good the cause the ends don't justify the means.

[rugbydrummer]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but the whole "people know us as the Golden Eagles now" is a bit overstated.  I have one of the gold Marquette Warriors shirts with 90s logo on it and I honestly get at least 1-2 comments every time I wear it without fail.  I have other Marquette gear that usually doesn't elicit such a reaction.  I was in Vegas this past weekend and wore it out one day.  Honestly, in 4-5 hours, I got at least 10 "Warriors, hell yea" comments, high fives, and people wanting to know where it was.  People love the Warriors.

Hey I was there last weekend too but I ignored you specifically because you were wearing a warriors shirt . . .

What were you there for?? I think we brought the hot weather home because it's colder there now!

[GGGG]

While ordinarily I would agree with you, however then why trot out these clearly untrue reasons for the name change?  If they can't reveal the reason for the change don't make one up.  To lie about it is what takes it to the bribe level for me, if you can't be honest about your reasons, by definition you are dishonest.  Its kind of like the Weiner thing....its not so much the action but the lying.

Have they lied?  It is possible that they truly believe that the Warrior nickname runs counter to what the Jesuits believe on this issue WHILE ALSO running counter to an agreement they have with a donor.

And you speak as if you know, which galls me further. 

I know what has been implied...that the nickname issue is tied to the Valley Fields project and the Potowanomi Tribe.