MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Tha Hound on July 28, 2023, 10:42:40 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMyFLJH9MZA
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Fantastic stuff there, enjoyable watch
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Interesting…
And, this will prob put me in the minority, but … this year’s roster makes for a top 10 team, and possibly a FF, it’s
Not a NC roster.
Hope I’m wrong. Will be at the practice to check them out.
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If we stay healthy and see similar returning player development to last year, it certainly could be an NC roster. Especially because I think this is the kind of team that's built to get a 1/2 seed, and as we saw last year, all you have to do is get there. No one would've called last year an NC roster but if TK doesn't get hurt, I think we beat MSU and the only team along our path that might've beaten us was UConn (who we'd already beat 2/3).
The biggest loss is certainly O-Max's ability on the defensive end. That said, while O-Max came into last year with great pressing ability and developed into an excellent defensive stopper against guys like Hawkins, that was never a given. O-Max improved, but the entire team improved on defense. Kam, Stevie, and Oso were all better defenders in Year 2 and Ross, Gold, and Joplin could all take defensive steps forward that would continue that team D improvement.
Last year the staff bet on improvement and it paid off with the highest kenpom rank finish in program history and two Big East titles. Next year should be even better, and if that isn't an NC contender, I don't know what is.
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Agreed, health and development will determine whether this is a NC caliber roster.
Very few were predicting a Big East Championship, Big East Tourney Championship, and 29 wins a year ago.
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Agreed, health and development will determine whether this is a NC caliber roster.
Very few were predicting a Big East Championship, Big East Tourney Championship, and 29 wins a year ago.
Ahem.
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I've been a bit surprised but some of the more cautious or pessimistic views on the team for the upcoming season.
While the record won't be better than last year, I fully expect the team to be better, even with a big loss in OMax.
Can't remember the last time I've been this excited for a season.
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I've been a bit surprised but some of the more cautious or pessimistic views on the team for the upcoming season.
While the record won't be better than last year, I fully expect the team to be better, even with a big loss in OMax.
Can't remember the last time I've been this excited for a season.
I can think of three times since I graduated that I was this excited in summer. The Amigos senior season, which lasted until the first few minutes of the UConn game. The 2013-14 summer before Vander Blue declared for the draft and Jameel McKay announced he was leaving before ever playing for us. Finally, the 2019-20 season for those brief few days between the end of the season and the Hauser transfer announcement.
Hopefully this excitement lasts longer than any of those last three.
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I can think of three times since I graduated that I was this excited in summer. The Amigos senior season, which lasted until the first few minutes of the UConn game. The 2013-14 summer before Vander Blue declared for the draft and Jameel McKay announced he was leaving before ever playing for us. Finally, the 2019-20 season for those brief few days between the end of the season and the Hauser transfer announcement.
Hopefully this excitement lasts longer than any of those last three.
Yeah, the reason I didn't mention the Vander Blue and the Hauser letter writing fiasco was because that excitement was very short-lived. Not the case this time.
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I've been a bit surprised but some of the more cautious or pessimistic views on the team for the upcoming season.
While the record won't be better than last year, I fully expect the team to be better, even with a big loss in OMax.
Can't remember the last time I've been this excited for a season.
I’m pretty excited as well. It should be a fun year. 2003 was the only final four year that I can remember well. I was too young in in 77. I was much more confident of a final four appearance with that group before the season started than I am with this one. But I am optimistic for at least a second weekend appearance in the NCAA tournament. Would love to see another final four.
I also agree with the optimism of the three amigos final year. DJs injury was a heart breaker.
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I’m pretty excited as well. It should be a fun year. 2003 was the only final four year that I can remember well. I was too young in in 77. I was much more confident of a final four appearance with that group before the season started than I am with this one. But I am optimistic for at least a second weekend appearance in the NCAA tournament. Would love to see another final four.
I also agree with the optimism of the three amigos final year. DJs injury was a heart breaker.
The air went out of the BC when DJ hurt his foot.
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Haven't been this enthused about the coming season since the McGuire era.
We shall see but it's encouraging.
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Interesting…
And, this will prob put me in the minority, but … this year’s roster makes for a top 10 team, and possibly a FF, it’s
Not a NC roster.
Hope I’m wrong. Will be at the practice to check them out.
If a team is in the top 10 and a legit FF contender, it also is a legit contender for the national title IMHO.
And if the 2024 NCAAT is anything like the 2023 NCAAT, there will be way more than 10 contenders.
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I think coaches will play more of the gap defense that Izzo laid out against us in the tournament….will need to adjust to that.
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Fair. If they can teach it. I also think that having TKo healthy will help. Plus, now that Shaka has seen it, he can prepare a counter. I agree with your larger point. Izzo got us.
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We had a long stretch in that game - from the last 6 or so minutes of the first half through the first 3 mins of the second half - where we killed that defense, outscoring MSU 22-9 to take a lead. Then we just couldn't make any shots or get anything from TK. I'm not overly concerned that a certain kind of defense is going to consistently beat us.
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We had a long stretch in that game - from the last 6 or so minutes of the first half through the first 3 mins of the second half - where we killed that defense, outscoring MSU 22-9 to take a lead. Then we just couldn't make any shots or get anything from TK. I'm not overly concerned that a certain kind of defense is going to consistently beat us.
Everyone goes right to the TK injury and I understand why, but to me the turning point was the Joplin and Ross turnovers with about 8 minutes left (going off memory). They each had 2, 4 total, unforced turnovers in row. Pretty sure they both dribbled off their feet and straight up didn’t catch passes that were right in their hands. Again, going off memory. And during that stretch MSU didn’t score either. I think we were up and never stretched the leads due to the turnovers
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It's certain that MU is not going to surprise anyone this season. From game one, every opponent will be as well prepared as they can be. The big question this year is how the guys will adjust to having high expectations put on them and being the hunted instead of the hunter. That's a big adjustment to make.
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Do you think MU "surprised" anybody the second time around the league last season? Did we "surprise" opponents in the BET?
I don't think we'll surprise anybody in 2023-24, either. And that's OK. We don't need to win by stealth.
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We had a long stretch in that game - from the last 6 or so minutes of the first half through the first 3 mins of the second half - where we killed that defense, outscoring MSU 22-9 to take a lead. Then we just couldn't make any shots or get anything from TK. I'm not overly concerned that a certain kind of defense is going to consistently beat us.
Agree
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Do you think MU "surprised" anybody the second time around the league last season? Did we "surprise" opponents in the BET?
I don't think we'll surprise anybody in 2023-24, either. And that's OK. We don't need to win by stealth.
Agree
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Fair. If they can teach it. I also think that having TKo healthy will help. Plus, now that Shaka has seen it, he can prepare a counter. I agree with your larger point. Izzo got us.
Teams that played gap containment defenses against MU: Purdue, Mississippi St., Wisconsin, and MSU. The 0fer versus B1G teams is telling.
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Teams that played gap containment defenses against MU: Purdue, Mississippi St., Wisconsin, and MSU. The 0fer versus B1G teams is telling.
Shaka can’t beat Big 10 teams
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Teams that played gap containment defenses against MU: Purdue, Mississippi St., Wisconsin, and MSU. The 0fer versus B1G teams is telling.
Scored1.12 ppp against UW and 1.06 vs Purdue……..offense wasn’t the problem in those games.
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We had a long stretch in that game - from the last 6 or so minutes of the first half through the first 3 mins of the second half - where we killed that defense, outscoring MSU 22-9 to take a lead. Then we just couldn't make any shots or get anything from TK. I'm not overly concerned that a certain kind of defense is going to consistently beat us.
This. Izzo didn’t beat us - we beat ourselves.
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Scored1.12 ppp against UW and 1.06 vs Purdue……..offense wasn’t the problem in those games.
Both well below our game median. All lower possession games. The four or five out offense has weaknesses. MU needs a counter in these match ups like UCONN's roster provided.
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Crappy Badgers offense scored 1.16 ppp in our loss…….I guess it depends how you look at it……I blame the defense for that loss……along with unconscious shooting from Hepburn.
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This. Izzo didn’t beat us - we beat ourselves.
Each can be true to a degree ... but although I respect Izzo (and tower), I side more with the latter.
Teams that played gap containment defenses against MU: Purdue, Mississippi St., Wisconsin, and MSU. The 0fer versus B1G teams is telling.
The only possible conclusion is that every single coach in the Big East last season was a moron, including Hurley, McDermott, Cooley and Miller.
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The only possible conclusion is that every single coach in the Big East last season was a moron, including Hurley, McDermott, Cooley and Miller.
Says the guy who ripped Shaka for his Texas entirety for the same thing.
At some point you need to rebound and hit mid range shots. Shaka ain't perfect and you called it before.
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Says the guy who ripped Shaka for his Texas entirety for the same thing.
I absolutely remember ripping Shaka because he lost to Abilene Christian, the last stop in him going 0-for-the-NCAAT at Texas. I don't remember ripping him because he kept losing to the same Big 12 teams the same way, but maybe I did if that's what happened.
If he did keep losing to the same Big 12 teams the same way, I'd call that a shortcoming for him. Wouldn't you?
Back to the topic ... if all a team needed to do last season to contain Marquette was play gap containment defenses, if it was that obvious, why didn't at least some Big East coaches do so to try to slow down the conference's dominant offensive team?
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I absolutely remember ripping Shaka because he lost to Abilene Christian, the last stop in him going 0-for-the-NCAAT at Texas. I don't remember ripping him because he kept losing to the same Big 12 teams the same way, but maybe I did if that's what happened.
If he did keep losing to the same Big 12 teams the same way, I'd call that a shortcoming for him. Wouldn't you?
Back to the topic ... if all a team needed to do last season to contain Marquette was play gap containment defenses, if it was that obvious, why didn't at least some Big East coaches do so to try to slow down the conference's dominant offensive team?
Perhaps you should check your posting history where you have a Shaka recap after every loss. Try some ginkgo.
Cooley and Hurley beat Shaka last year. And vice versa. Shaka is a great system coach. As a match up coach, TBD as he said after Izzo schooled him.
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Perhaps you should check your posting history where you have a Shaka recap after every loss. Try some ginkgo.
Cooley and Hurley beat Shaka last year. And vice versa. Shaka is a great system coach. As a match up coach, TBD as he said after Izzo schooled him.
Izzo schooled him? We largely beat ourselves in the MSU game. Chase had 4 turnovers in 11 minutes of action. Joplin had 2. These all came in a critical stretch in the second half right after we'd gotten the lead in the game.
I don't disagree with you necessarily that some mid-range offense may add some benefit to our team, but hard to argue with the overriding philosophy of 3's and layups after we finished 7th in the country in Offensive Efficiency
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Dreaded gap containment defense notwithstanding, if MU plays Purdue and Miss. State in February instead of November they win both of those games.
There were so many bad turnovers in that Michigan State game that were more or less unforced. If anything in that game the defense down the stretch needs to be scrutinized. Got cooked over and over again off the bounce.
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There were so many bad turnovers in that Michigan State game that were more or less unforced. If anything in that game the defense down the stretch needs to be scrutinized. Got cooked over and over again off the bounce.
This. 2P defense was our downfall that game.
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This. 2P defense was our downfall that game.
Disagree strongly. What we saw was a masterpiece by Tom Izzo. Izzo did a brilliant job lulling Marquette to sleep by underachieving all year and “coaching” poorly throughout the season and saving himself for March.
The loss in the Big Ten Tournament opener to Ohio State was one of those coaching moments that makes him the legend he is. Losing that game and saving his brilliant schemes for the big dance was some of the savviest coaching you’ll ever see.
What Shaka learned that fateful day was, Izzo is March, and you can’t outfox a coach playing the long game.
Some might point out Izzo got outcoached in the next game when they lost to K-State, but I disagree. Izzo is March didn’t get out coached, he lost because of social media, the only thing that can stop his brilliant tactics
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Perhaps you should check your posting history where you have a Shaka recap after every loss.
If you can show that I had a Shaka recap after every loss, I'll donate $1,000 to your favorite charity. If you can't, you donate $1,000 to Big Brothers Big Sisters for me, OK?
You actually don't have to lose that bet unless you want to; BBBS would appreciate it. I know you were just going for mega-hyperbole, as that's what we do sometimes on Scoop. I did occasionally poke fun at the notion of Mrs. Smart not wanting to move to Milwaukee in 2014. I'm glad she apparently changed her mind 7 years later, and I'm thrilled that Shaka is our coach.
Cooley and Hurley beat Shaka last year. And vice versa. Shaka is a great system coach. As a match up coach, TBD as he said after Izzo schooled him.
I seriously missed Shaka saying Izzo schooled him, Doc, but maybe he did. I know a few Scoopers have said it.
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Relationships.
Growth.
Victory.
and
Mind the Gap.
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First, I think Izzo may have outcoached Shaka last year and I think the team panicked a bit when they had a chance to take control of the game. Some very poor unforced turnovers cost them when they had a chance to get a decent lead.
Secondly, I more optimistic about the season the closer it gets. Like all schools, health is going to be a big part of any success next season. They will have a very deep team and think we will see an even faster version of last year's team. If healthy, S16 should be the lowest bar for success.
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IDK if he "outcoached" Shaka, but Izzo is a good an experienced coach who figured out how to rattle a Marquette team that was on a roll. Not the first to have to deal with that from him. It was a frustrating game.
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Sultan,
I agree. I said may have outcoached him, but the guys getting rattled hurt more, IMO.
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I see the two as intertwined. Izzo showed MU something that challenged them. TKo wasn't 100%. Some others made uncharacteristic errors. IMO slightly more MSU defense than the moment.
Both/and. Not either/or.
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I see the two as intertwined. Izzo showed MU something that challenged them. TKo wasn't 100%. Some others made uncharacteristic errors. IMO slightly more MSU defense than the moment.
Both/and. Not either/or.
Michigan State plays physical/dirtbag ball, so I guess that challenged them
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Yes, and?
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Yes, and?
I guess that’s great coaching
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Disagree strongly. What we saw was a masterpiece by Tom Izzo. Izzo did a brilliant job lulling Marquette to sleep by underachieving all year and “coaching” poorly throughout the season and saving himself for March.
The loss in the Big Ten Tournament opener to Ohio State was one of those coaching moments that makes him the legend he is. Losing that game and saving his brilliant schemes for the big dance was some of the savviest coaching you’ll ever see.
What Shaka learned that fateful day was, Izzo is March, and you can’t outfox a coach playing the long game.
Some might point out Izzo got outcoached in the next game when they lost to K-State, but I disagree. Izzo is March didn’t get out coached, he lost because of social media, the only thing that can stop his brilliant tactics
Perfect summation of the situation Rico;)
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Izzo had zero to do with that tournament loss….nothing! ::)
It certainly can’t be both we played poorly and Izzo had a plan for us.