MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: GoldenDieners32 on May 29, 2017, 09:28:45 PM
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Tell me your guys' top 5 hoops players from MU. Don't base it on what they have done professionally strictly in college
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Wade
Lee
Ellis
Lucas
Chones
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Jim Chones
Butch Lee
Dwayne Wade
Bo Ellis
Lazar Hayward
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1. Terry Reason.
2-5. Enter name here.
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Bane
Boylan
Frozena
Grimm
Jimmy Mac
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1. George Thompson
2. Wade
3. Ellis
4. Kojis
5. Tie: Meminger, Bu. Lee, Chones, L. McNeil, Tatum
This is very difficult considering the many great players.
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How anyone can leave George Thompson off that list is beyond me.
Edit: not you Willie as you clicked just before me.
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I thought Rand was supposedly the best of our two 1950s stars. I know kojis was great at rebounding but rand did both
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I've only been a fan since the mid 2000s, so this list comes with a recency caveat. That said:
Wade
Butler
Matthews
Hayward
Novak
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I've only been a fan since the mid 2000s, so this list comes with a recency caveat. That said:
Wade
Butler
Matthews
Hayward
Novak
Diener should probably be above everyone else on this list except for Wade. And I'd say DJO and Jae were better college players than Butler. Maybe even better than Matthews, thanks to Coach Tom Crean holding that dude back.
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Diener should probably be above everyone else on this list except for Wade. And I'd say DJO and Jae were better college players than Butler. Maybe even better than Matthews, thanks to Coach Tom Crean holding that dude back.
Butler was an incredibly clutch offensive player and MU's and a lockdown defender (he and DJ were our two best in the last 35 years. Wesley (thanks to Crean) and DJO were well behind him as college players. Travis and Jae were right there with him.
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Wasn't no really payihg attention to MU until 2000 as well when I started looking at colleges:
Wade
Diener
Novak
Butler
Howard (dude is straight cash homie)
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Butler
Crowder
Wade
Hayward
DJO
Anything prior to 2008 I don't care too much about. But Wade in there because, well, he probably deserves to be in there.
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Started watching 08-09 so
McNeal
Hayward
Crowder
DJO
Butler
I think it's interesting that despite being pretty successful in the 90s almost nobody has put any of those guys on their list.
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Wade
Thompson
Lucas
Meminger
Lee and Bo
Very difficult because I'm older and have seen many great MU players, tough to leave Kojis out.
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Strictly on peak performance, for those I have seen play:
Wade '03
Crowder '12
Novak '06
McNeal '09
Matthews '09
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Wade
Lee
Ellis
Kojis
Thompson
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Started watching 08-09 so
McNeal
Hayward
Crowder
DJO
Butler
I think it's interesting that despite being pretty successful in the 90s almost nobody has put any of those guys on their list.
Interesting observation, BPB. A few very goods (Mac, TMiller, Key, Hutch, Wardle, Anglivar), but no all-timey guys. Not by a long shot.
Wojo era: too soon
Buzz and Crean era: Wade (top 3); Diener, Novack, 3 Amigos and the JC group as arguable top 20 players.
90's: 0
80's: Doc (but not top 10 imo)
50's to 70's see above
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McNeal based on Stats at MU has to be on the list.
Those that pick Butler, Matthews, Doc, DJO, etc. are doing so because of what did they after MU, not at MU.
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McNeal based on Stats at MU has to be on the list.
Those that pick Butler, Matthews, Doc, DJO, etc. are doing so because of what did they after MU, not at MU.
You know why other people are picking the players they list...how?
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Strictly on peak performance, for those I have seen play:
Wade '03
Crowder '12
Novak '06
McNeal '09
Matthews '09
Balgona dropped on 1/4/06. Fun read...
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/recap?gameId=260030269 (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/recap?gameId=260030269)
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How anyone can leave George Thompson off that list is beyond me.
I like George a lot, but compared to Lucas and Ellis, George is not quite in the same league. Bo and Mo led us to NCAA title games with the Butch and Bo show winning the 1977 NCAA Championship. Chones and Wade were the two best Warriors ever and Butch led us to an NCAA Championship was MVP of the 1977 NCAA Championship, plus a first team all-American.
Another point to keep in mind is the impact of these guys going pro. It was huge on our team each time.
Lucas -- 1974 to 1975, NCAA Championship in 1974, first round loss in 1975.
Chones -- 1972 undefeated season. Turned pro and a second round loss in the NCAAs.
Ellis -- 1977 National Champions. 1978, first round knock-out.
Lee -- 1978 Nationally Ranked in the Top 5, 1979, a big step down.
Wade -- 2002 Final Four; trying to get back ever since.
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Have to agree with:
Lucas
Chones
Ellis
Lee
Wade
But if you said combined college and NBA careers take out Ellis and Lee and add Butler and Novak.
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Why no Vander Blue love? It is because he has not broken through to the NBA?
(Wades ... it seems that most of these choices listed so far are more a result of "recency bias" and "bandwagon effect" than one's actual performance at MU.)
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Have to agree with:
Lucas
Chones
Ellis
Lee
Wade
But if you said combined college and NBA careers take out Ellis and Lee and add Butler and Novak.
More recency bias in suggesting Butler and Novak ....
Take out Ellis and Lee and add (take your pick) Doc, Kojis, Whitehead, Matthews, Meminger, and Tony Smith (who is better statistically in every category than Novak but is not "recent" so he is forgotten).
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McNeal based on Stats at MU has to be on the list.
Those that pick Butler, Matthews, Doc, DJO, etc. are doing so because of what did they after MU, not at MU.
I could see Matthews Doc and butler being picked for after MU but DJO? Dude got drafted at the end of the second round and played like 4 league games. What about that would influence someone to put him on this list?
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Why no Vander Blue love? It is because he has not broken through to the NBA?
(Wades ... it seems that most of these choices listed so far are more a result of "recency bias" and "bandwagon effect" than one's actual performance at MU.)
I mean, really, how can they not be? If you're a '10 grad and you're saying Lee or Ellis, it's to primarily be "different" knowing damn well that you didn't watch these guys play in any kind of capacity, but are strictly going off what others say (and stats--which is more acceptable). Unless you see guys play on a consistent basis, have an idea of the impact they had on their team, and the culture of the program, it's really hard to rate them.
EDIT: Kinda why these debates are silly. In a way, we're all bias toward a stat or experience(s). Probably be a little more structured if we had 5 or 6 agreed-upon metrics to use in assessing the "Top 5" with a weight given to each...which would spawn another thread
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I could see Matthews Doc and butler being picked for after MU but DJO? Dude got drafted at the end of the second round and played like 4 league games. What about that would influence someone to put him on this list?
Yup, DJO may be the most underrated player in MU history. Always seemed to play second fiddle to JFB and Jae but outscored them both. I'd also put Cadougan in the underrated category because he did a lot for the teams he played for. (certainly not a top 20 or even 50 player though)
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I mean, really, how can they not be? If you're a '10 grad and you're saying Lee or Ellis, it's to primarily be "different" knowing damn well that you didn't watch these guys play in any kind of capacity, but are strictly going off what others say (and stats--which is more acceptable). Unless you see guys play on a consistent basis, have an idea of the impact they had on their team, and the culture of the program, it's really hard to rate them.
EDIT: Kinda why these debates are silly. In a way, we're all bias toward a stat or experience(s). Probably be a little more structured if we had 5 or 6 agreed-upon metrics to use in assessing the "Top 5" with a weight given to each...which would spawn another thread
Correct!
Is the question what they did for MU or after in the Pros? Becuase the question does not read the best MU player in the NBA. It is best all-time for MU. So, Matthews was nothing for three years and then had a decent senior year. If the question is what they did at MU, he should get zero consideration or about the same as Juan Anderson. He's on the list purely for what he did after he left MU (which was a lot!) or the bandwagon effect.
And regarding recency effect, we are we are 27 posts into this and only two posters have the right answer ... MU has one player who at MU was clearly head and shoulders above everyone else.
Willie and MU69 win with George Thompson at #1. His meaning to the program and stats, no question he was the best ever, including Wade.
I understand that everyone believes the world began the day they were born and MU basketball did not exist until they became aware of it (nevermind the centennial, for most here MU basketball has, at most, 15 years of history). So George Thompson getting number 1 billing sounds like an anthropology class discussion, as he played in the 1960s and you have to be 60+ years old to say you even saw him play. Arguments against Thompson for Wade will really revolve around a recency bias.
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How anyone can leave George Thompson off that list is beyond me.
Edit: not you Willie as you clicked just before me.
Or Meminger.
There could be a very good argument that they are #1 and #2
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I like George a lot, but compared to Lucas and Ellis, George is not quite in the same league.
You obviously never saw him play.
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From the Pre and Early Al Era Pick One of :
Don Kojis - A force of Nature. I saw him at the event last fall and at 77 he still looks athletic.
Terry Rand- Bill Russell said Rand was the best college center he played against, that is as good of an endorsement as you can get.
George Thompson -No comment necessary
Blue Blood Al Era:
Chones
Lee
Ellis
Post Al Era:
Wade
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You obviously never saw him play.
Wanna bet?
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Balgona dropped on 1/4/06. Fun read...
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/recap?gameId=260030269 (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/recap?gameId=260030269)
"He hit fallaways, he hit a 38-footer, you name it," Calhoun said. "He was wonderful."
Novak... so hot right now... Novak....
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Saw them all play in person from George on so I obviously cant comment on Rand or Kojis. And I must admit that I was very young with George. My memory is better by the time of Chones and Dean as I was old enough to at least follow sports as a grade schooler.
Candidly, I think I have to agree with degies. Thompson could absolutely fill it up and there's no doubt about his hallowed place in our history as he was the first NYC kid that made everything afterwards possible. But the Top 5 is an incredibly select list. I think it absolutely MUST include DWade, Ellis and Butch. #4 and #5 get tougher. Candidates include: Lucas, Chones, Meminger, Thompson, Tatum and of course Rand and Kojis for us to be truly fair.
Sorry for all you young guys but nobody on the 'modern' list approaches that. What you guys need to appreciate was that for about an 8 year run, we were a Top 5 program nationally in the same breath with Indiana, North Carolina, Kentucky among a few others and just below UCLA, all in an era where college basketball wasn't watered down by early entry NBA. Said another way, with the exception of Wade our 21st century ballplayers are 'nice'. Our Al era ballplayers were superstars. I can only imagine how bad Ellis, Lucas, or Chones would have kicked Henry's backside. There just wasn't ESPN around to cover them 24/7.
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I was born after the Al era, so I can't comment knowledgeably about the top 5. Wade is easily the best in my lifetime. I'll defer the Al era to the old timers.
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Here's watt y'all been waitin' on:
#14
#22
#15
#31
#3
Knot dat hard, hey?
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Here's watt y'all been waitin' on:
#14
#22
#15
#31
#3
Knot dat hard, hey?
Assuming #31 is Bo and not Doc Rivers, I have no argument with these picks, Doc, but how good is a team that has George, Mo, Earl, etc., coming off the bench?
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Lenny Man, Bo makes my cut. The younguns will never understand the plethora of basketball talent that called Marquette their home. We were so very fortunate to have witnessed and lived it each day, hey?
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BTW, a frontline of Chones, McNeill, and Luke woulda given many NBA teams a run, ai na?
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BTW, a frontline of Chones, McNeill, and Luke woulda given many NBA teams a run, ai na?
Agreed.
Unfortunately college basketball, while still very exciting, is a shadow of what it once was. The great days ended with the Christian Laettner era.
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BTW, a frontline of Chones, McNeill, and Luke woulda given many NBA teams a run, ai na?
loved those guys, but playing the 3 together would not have be en good.
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Saw them all play in person from George on so I obviously cant comment on Rand or Kojis. And I must admit that I was very young with George. My memory is better by the time of Chones and Dean as I was old enough to at least follow sports as a grade schooler.
Candidly, I think I have to agree with degies. Thompson could absolutely fill it up and there's no doubt about his hallowed place in our history as he was the first NYC kid that made everything afterwards possible. But the Top 5 is an incredibly select list. I think it absolutely MUST include DWade, Ellis and Butch. #4 and #5 get tougher. Candidates include: Lucas, Chones, Meminger, Thompson, Tatum and of course Rand and Kojis for us to be truly fair.
Sorry for all you young guys but nobody on the 'modern' list approaches that. What you guys need to appreciate was that for about an 8 year run, we were a Top 5 program nationally in the same breath with Indiana, North Carolina, Kentucky among a few others and just below UCLA, all in an era where college basketball wasn't watered down by early entry NBA. Said another way, with the exception of Wade our 21st century ballplayers are 'nice'. Our Al era ballplayers were superstars. I can only imagine how bad Ellis, Lucas, or Chones would have kicked Henry's backside. There just wasn't ESPN around to cover them 24/7.
Superbly stated, glow.
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Tip was MU's scoring leader for 40 years, despite only being able to play three seasons and with the lack of the three ball. Sorry, that holds the test of time, especially since he opened recruiting doors for Al.
Slim, with two F2s, and a net around his neck is a no brainer.
Butch with the NC trophy and MVP is next.
Next comes the early entries. Wade and Luke were a F4 and F2, respectively. Chones with only one loss, but then gone with an unfulfilled college legacy. Results matta, and that is why #22 is left off the BC rafters.
Don't blame him. Al pushed him. But, he didn't finish his college legacy.
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Lenny Man, Bo makes my cut. The younguns will never understand the plethora of basketball talent that called Marquette their home. We were so very fortunate to have witnessed and lived it each day, hey?
I don't understand you when you speak normally.
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Lenny Man, Bo makes my cut. The younguns will never understand the plethora of basketball talent that called Marquette their home. We were so very fortunate to have witnessed and lived it each day, hey?
Amen
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Saw them all play in person from George on so I obviously cant comment on Rand or Kojis. And I must admit that I was very young with George. My memory is better by the time of Chones and Dean as I was old enough to at least follow sports as a grade schooler.
Candidly, I think I have to agree with degies. Thompson could absolutely fill it up and there's no doubt about his hallowed place in our history as he was the first NYC kid that made everything afterwards possible. But the Top 5 is an incredibly select list. I think it absolutely MUST include DWade, Ellis and Butch. #4 and #5 get tougher. Candidates include: Lucas, Chones, Meminger, Thompson, Tatum and of course Rand and Kojis for us to be truly fair.
Sorry for all you young guys but nobody on the 'modern' list approaches that. What you guys need to appreciate was that for about an 8 year run, we were a Top 5 program nationally in the same breath with Indiana, North Carolina, Kentucky among a few others and just below UCLA, all in an era where college basketball wasn't watered down by early entry NBA. Said another way, with the exception of Wade our 21st century ballplayers are 'nice'. Our Al era ballplayers were superstars. I can only imagine how bad Ellis, Lucas, or Chones would have kicked Henry's backside. There just wasn't ESPN around to cover them 24/7.
Very well stated. Really my only (minor) disagreement is with the mandatory top three. I would start with Meminger, Lee and Wade...who also happen to have been MU's only consensus first team All-Americans. My other two would be Chones and Ellis, but I can also see arguments for Luke, Thompson, Tatum, Kojis and Rand.
Plenty of good players more recently, but none since Wade rise to that level....
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Saw them all play in person from George on so I obviously cant comment on Rand or Kojis. And I must admit that I was very young with George. My memory is better by the time of Chones and Dean as I was old enough to at least follow sports as a grade schooler.
Candidly, I think I have to agree with degies. Thompson could absolutely fill it up and there's no doubt about his hallowed place in our history as he was the first NYC kid that made everything afterwards possible. But the Top 5 is an incredibly select list. I think it absolutely MUST include DWade, Ellis and Butch. #4 and #5 get tougher. Candidates include: Lucas, Chones, Meminger, Thompson, Tatum and of course Rand and Kojis for us to be truly fair.
Sorry for all you young guys but nobody on the 'modern' list approaches that. What you guys need to appreciate was that for about an 8 year run, we were a Top 5 program nationally in the same breath with Indiana, North Carolina, Kentucky among a few others and just below UCLA, all in an era where college basketball wasn't watered down by early entry NBA. Said another way, with the exception of Wade our 21st century ballplayers are 'nice'. Our Al era ballplayers were superstars. I can only imagine how bad Ellis, Lucas, or Chones would have kicked Henry's backside. There just wasn't ESPN around to cover them 24/7.
this was all very well stated-back in the late 60'-70's, we really were spoiled and that set the basis for many of us on where we'd LIKE to be with MU hoops. that is our bar. in order to p!ss with the big dogs-ya gotta lift that leg really high!
the players who made up that era were some of the very best in the college ball players in the country. wha wha what? college ball? yes, because a few of these guys, dean the dream, bo and butch(2 time ncaa player of the year) were spectacular college ball players, but went on to have less than stellar pro careers. their pro careers do not define the impact they had on our program however. but these 3 have got to be mentioned in the same sentence as top 5 or 6 top MU players in history. when we get back to having a run as glow mentioned, then this list can change...maybe
then ya have to have jimmy chones, maurice lucas, george thompson as well. not taking anything away from these guys as they were spectacular college players who went on to have nice pro careers
2nd team-wade, doc, larry mcneil, rand and kojis
honorable mention-allie mcguire, jimmy boylan, davante(automatic), novak, crowder, djo, jerel mcsteal, hayward, vander
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BTW, a frontline of Chones, McNeill, and Luke woulda given many NBA teams a run, ai na?
Awesome frontline. How did I forget Lucas in my top 5? Even making a top 10 would be difficult.
Where would you put guys like Rand, Earl Tatum, Bob Lackey, Sam Worthen, Lloyd Walton, Mandy Johnson, Aaron Hutchens, etc. etc.? Apologies to other greats I forgot about.
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2nd team-wade, doc, larry mcneil, rand and kojis
DWade is not second team. No recency bias on that one. In terms of pure talent, he's right there at the tippy top of any list.
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Awesome frontline. How did I forget Lucas in my top 5? Even making a top 10 would be difficult.
Where would you put guys like Rand, Earl Tatum, Bob Lackey, Sam Worthen, Lloyd Walton, Mandy Johnson, Aaron Hutchens, etc. etc.? Apologies to other greats I forgot about.
Answering your question is tough, but before one mentions guys like Johnson and Hutchins, we simply can't forget about Tony Smith. He was an absolutely great player right up with our very best guards (or close) who has been a little lost to history because he played during the dark years.
Oh and somebody mentioned Gardner? (Edit: That was you rocket. C'Mon man.) That's crazy talk. He's one of my favorites too but let's not put him in the same sentence with Jimmy Mac, for example.
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And Larry McNeill is a great story. Am I remembering correctly that he was the guy who went up in the stands during the game to deal with a 'girlfriend issue'? I remember being somewhat concerned when he graduated wondering who would fill his role. (That ended up working out just fine.)
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Sorry for all you young guys but nobody on the 'modern' list approaches that. What you guys need to appreciate was that for about an 8 year run, we were a Top 5 program nationally in the same breath with Indiana, North Carolina, Kentucky among a few others and just below UCLA, all in an era where college basketball wasn't watered down by early entry NBA. Said another way, with the exception of Wade our 21st century ballplayers are 'nice'. Our Al era ballplayers were superstars. I can only imagine how bad Ellis, Lucas, or Chones would have kicked Henry's backside. There just wasn't ESPN around to cover them 24/7.
We were what we want to become again. We were THAT good.
I started following MU basketball in 1966. I grew up in an MU household. In that vein, the Hillbilly, Crean, O'Neill and Wojo era ballplayers were good. No doubt. But with the possible exception of DWade, there has been no one who could put the team on his back and get us to the Final Four.
I suspect the reason is that while we have had good coaches who potentially could have become great coaches at Marquette, the best of the post-Al lot didn't stick around long enough to build the reputation Al did.
To develop the kind of reputation we had, which brought in what today we would call the "one-and-dones", you need coaching stability and a good track record. I suspect if Wojo is here 10 years from now, we'll be arguing about Markus Howard the way we are arguing about George Thompson today.
A last point: If I had to pick a just missed category for guys that were unbelievable but just not quite at the level of the five best ever, it would be the following:
Dean Meminger
Glenn Rivers
George Thompson
Earl Tatum
Jerome Whitehead/Jim MacIlvaine (Pick 'em, I couldn't decide which way to go on this one)
That still leaves off Larry McNeill, Lloyd Walton, Bob Lackey (my personal favorite), Tony Smith, Sam Worthen, David Boone, Jeral McNeal, A-u-t-o-m-a-t-i-c, Travis Diener, Bernard Toone, DJO and a host of other really great ballplayers.
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We were what we want to become again. We were THAT good.
I started following MU basketball in 1966. I grew up in an MU household. In that vein, the Hillbilly, Crean, O'Neill and Wojo era ballplayers were good. No doubt. But with the possible exception of DWade, there has been no one who could put the team on his back and get us to the Final Four.
I suspect the reason is that while we have had good coaches who potentially could have become great coaches at Marquette, the best of the post-Al lot didn't stick around long enough to build the reputation Al did.
To develop the kind of reputation we had, which brought in what today we would call the "one-and-dones", you need coaching stability and a good track record. I suspect if Wojo is here 10 years from now, we'll be arguing about Markus Howard the way we are arguing about George Thompson today.
A last point: If I had to pick a just missed category for guys that were unbelievable but just not quite at the level of the five best ever, it would be the following:
Dean Meminger
Glenn Rivers
George Thompson
Earl Tatum
Jerome Whitehead/Jim MacIlvaine (Pick 'em, I couldn't decide which way to go on this one)
That still leaves off Larry McNeill, Lloyd Walton, Bob Lackey (my personal favorite), Tony Smith, Sam Worthen, David Boone, Jeral McNeal, A-u-t-o-m-a-t-i-c, Travis Diener, Bernard Toone, DJO and a host of other really great ballplayers.
I'd add Kerry Trotter to your last list
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Lenny and 4ever
Bo makes the cut big time. I like Doc's lineup a lot, especially if top 5 players and not going by position. IMO, Bo, Chones, Wade and Butch are locks. I go back and forth on number five and think 4-5 guys can fill that spot. Bo was an unreal college player and was great from day one.
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DWADE is the greatest player to ever play at MU, IMO. He was the most talented, most exciting and dynamic player I ever saw at MU. He is the only post Al player that cracks by top ten and he comes in at #1!!!
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DWade is not second team. No recency bias on that one. In terms of pure talent, he's right there at the tippy top of any list.
yes, wade was absolutely a stud for us, BUT i already stretched the "top 5 to 6 and i couldn't get myself to leave dean, bo and/or butch off the big list. jimmy, maurice and george are locks imho. can we change the title of the subject to top 7?
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One player that is completely left out of almost all Discussions is Micheal Wilson. He had the unfortunate luck of playing in the Hank years and all those players have not gotten their due, guys like Sam Worthen, Oliver Lee, Glenn Rivers etc . if Al was still around for those guys I have a feeling it would have been a different story.
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Aaron Hutchins
D Wade
David Boone
Maurice Lucas
Geo Thompson
Boone and Hutchins would have been studs on every MU squad, including the Al years.
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This type of question of who was the best 5 players at MU is always debatable. I do go back to the George "Brute Force" Thompson days, and he should be #1.
Played all 3 years at MU, averaged 18-20 points a game and was a gamer. Most exciting player at MU other than D Wade. Let George do it was his sloga
Butch Lee, player of the year, NCAA champ, who else. Started as a freshman. Ask the American Olympic Team how good he was!
Dean the Dream, awesome, average 17.7 for a team that walked the ball up the court, once Al got the lead, then it was mickey mouse hoops. Today shot clock, Dean
would have average 20 or more, he could not really shoot the ball. Dean and Butch played different games then today.
D Wade took MU back to the final 4, great junior year.
Really the best player at MU for a short time, Jim Chones, best bigman MU has had. One bad referee cost them that one season, 29-1. The next year Al
did what he had to do, but really could have waited 2 more months. Chones did not play till the following year.
One more player to mention was Bo Ellis. Played all 4 years, finals 2 out of 4 years. Championship 1977, not flashy, wiry, but was a true winner. Not has athletic
as the above, but really smart, heady player, played both sides of the court. If I was going to build a team around one player it would be him.
Finally, the most athletic player ever at MU, Dominic James. He was a smaller version of George. One last mention, Sam Worthen, he was a great point.
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Answering your question is tough, but before one mentions guys like Johnson and Hutchins, we simply can't forget about Tony Smith. He was an absolutely great player right up with our very best guards (or close) who has been a little lost to history because he played during the dark years.
Oh and somebody mentioned Gardner? (Edit: That was you rocket. C'Mon man.) That's crazy talk. He's one of my favorites too but let's not put him in the same sentence with Jimmy Mac, for example.
So many good ones, and the list goes on. Forgot Tony Miller, MU's all time assist leader-and then some! Another basketball magician was Dick Nixon, back in the Eddie Hickey years. I also forgot Michael Wilson, another great one. And yes, Kerry Trotter was great, just played on some mediocre teams. Same with Tony Smith. Cordell Henry, Brian Wardle, could keep adding to the memories. And somebody mentioned Terry Reason in this thread. He would definitely be top 5 on the all Hair team.
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DWADE is the greatest player to ever play at MU, IMO. He was the most talented, most exciting and dynamic player I ever saw at MU. He is the only post Al player that cracks by top ten and he comes in at #1!!!
I would have wade in the top 5, absolutely. But greatest? Maybe, but you could make arguments for others, including: Thompson, Lucas, Ellis, Kojis, Lee, Meminger, and some others. Suffice it to say that we have had some great ones over the years
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I would have wade in the top 5, absolutely. But greatest? Maybe, but you could make arguments for others, including: Thompson, Lucas, Ellis, Kojis, Lee, Meminger, and some others. Suffice it to say that we have had some great ones over the years
Are any of those guys on lists of the top 20 basketball players in history?
I don't pretend to know have been there back in the Al days but how many of his players benefitted from a genius coaching and other unbelievable talented players around them while players in the more recent era didn't have near the coach, or talent around them.
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Willie
I could name a slew of guys that fall into 2-7 and a bunch from 8-15, but I believe Wade was a cut above. One man's opinion and I hold 2-15 in very high regard and a tough grader. He was a special, special talent.
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Are any of those guys on lists of the top 20 basketball players in history?
I don't pretend to know have been there back in the Al days but how many of his players benefitted from a genius coaching and other unbelievable talented players around them while players in the more recent era didn't have near the coach, or talent around them.
Wade is on lists like that primarily because of his pro career, and if you look at the whole body of work, he is clearly #1. But the OP specifically said "Don't base it on what they have done professionally strictly in college."
Given that request, Dean, Butch, Chones and maybe a couple of others are at least in the conversation.
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So many good ones, and the list goes on. Forgot Tony Miller, MU's all time assist leader-and then some! Another basketball magician was Dick Nixon, back in the Eddie Hickey years. I also forgot Michael Wilson, another great one. And yes, Kerry Trotter was great, just played on some mediocre teams. Same with Tony Smith. Cordell Henry, Brian Wardle, could keep adding to the memories. And somebody mentioned Terry Reason in this thread. He would definitely be top 5 on the all Hair team.
I meant TM. Smith was outstanding too.
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Wade is on lists like that primarily because of his pro career, and if you look at the whole body of work, he is clearly #1. But the OP specifically said "Don't base it on what they have done professionally strictly in college."
Given that request, Dean, Butch, Chones and maybe a couple of others are at least in the conversation.
Triple double against the #1 overall seed to bring us back to the F4 for the 1st time in a quarter century and assembled a body of work that got him picked #5 overall as a sophomore early entrant in what is widely regarded as one of the most loaded top ends of a draft ever.
You don't even have to reference his NBA achievements.
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Bringing Pudner's work back up from the past. Slightly different criteria, but another take at it with a more objective eye.
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2008/01/marquettes-greatest-players-top-10.html
Ellis, Wade, Thompson, Lee, Memimger are the Top 5
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Jared McNeal #1 scorer in MU history
Dom James #3 all-time (George Thompson #2)
Interesting that they have gotten almost no mention, especially Dom James.
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Triple double against the #1 overall seed to bring us back to the F4 for the 1st time in a quarter century and assembled a body of work that got him picked #5 overall as a sophomore early entrant in what is widely regarded as one of the most loaded top ends of a draft ever.
You don't even have to reference his NBA achievements.
I was responding to Boxer's post, which indirectly referenced NBA achievements by listing him among the all-time top 20.
I'm not saying Wade wasn't the best ever - he certainly is right in the mix with Meminger, Lee and Chones - but it isn't a clear or obvious choice. And FWIW...Wade got us back to the F4 for the first time in a quarter century...when Lee got us there and led us to a win. See? Not so obvious.
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Jared McNeal #1 scorer in MU history
Dom James #3 all-time (George Thompson #2)
Interesting that they have gotten almost no mention, especially Dom James.
Marquette All-Time Leading Scorers
1. Jerel McNeal- 1985 Points
2. Lazar Hayward- 1859 Points
3. George Thompson- 1773 Points
4. Dominic James- 1749 Points
Don't worry Heisy. I, too, had completely forgotten Lazar passed Brute Force until I looked it up the other day.
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Very well stated. Really my only (minor) disagreement is with the mandatory top three. I would start with Meminger, Lee and Wade...who also happen to have been MU's only consensus first team All-Americans. My other two would be Chones and Ellis, but I can also see arguments for Luke, Thompson, Tatum, Kojis and Rand.
Plenty of good players more recently, but none since Wade rise to that level....
Finally, some "Dean the Dream" love. He is as good or better of a candidate for #1 of all time at MU than most of those mentioned so far.
I think the four automatics are Meminger, Lee, Wade, and Thompson.
#5 could be Chones (a lock if he stayed 3 years, including a chance for #1 overall), Lucas, Bo (my preference), or Kojis. But you hit it on the head with the Top 3.
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Marquette All-Time Leading Scorers
1. Jerel McNeal- 1985 Points
2. Lazar Hayward- 1859 Points
3. George Thompson- 1773 Points
4. Dominic James- 1749 Points
Don't worry Heisy. I, too, had completely forgotten Lazar passed Brute Force until I looked it up the other day.
I hope you realize that McNeal, Hayward, and James played 4 years to Thompson's 3 years.
None of them could touch George as a scorer.
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Bringing Pudner's work back up from the past. Slightly different criteria, but another take at it with a more objective eye.
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2008/01/marquettes-greatest-players-top-10.html
Ellis, Wade, Thompson, Lee, Memimger are the Top 5
Funny. I have argued at times with this guy over the numbers he has published the last few years.
And yet, here we have the identical top 5. Go figure.
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Marquette All-Time Leading Scorers
1. Jerel McNeal- 1985 Points
2. Lazar Hayward- 1859 Points
3. George Thompson- 1773 Points
4. Dominic James- 1749 Points
Don't worry Heisy. I, too, had completely forgotten Lazar passed Brute Force until I looked it up the other day.
Wow ... and this post might be the first mention of Hayward.
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Quite surprised by how easily the word great has been referenced to guys that I believe are not even close to be being great. MU has had a lot of good players, a nice number of very good players and about a handful and a half of great players.
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Quite surprised by how easily the word great has been referenced to guys that I believe are not even close to be being great. MU has had a lot of good players, a nice number of very good players and about a handful and a half of great players.
Goose is right on the mark. The great ones are guys that can make our team and our program elite.
The very good ones are instrumental in getting us in the tournament.
The good ones have great statistics, played aspects of the game well or had some other memorable characteristic.
In short, it's about the team. DWade, Butch and Bo weren't just prolific scorers. They were essential cogs to Final Four teams -- Bo twice. Lucas was instrumental in getting us to the 1974 National Championship game.
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I hope you realize that McNeal, Hayward, and James played 4 years to Thompson's 3 years.
None of them could touch George as a scorer.
I am aware. Jerel played 130 games, Lazar 138, Thompson only 87. Just pointing out Hayward was omitted in another post.
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dgies9156
IMO, MU has had great players that would have been great anywhere they went. Have also had players that might have been great if they went elsewhere. The great one's are noticed even by casual fans. I am tough grader and many of the post Al names mentioned do not register as great or even very good to me.
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Strictly College--We had many-- In the early years 50's and 60's--Bob Wolf, Terry Rand, Mike Moran, Russ Wittberger, Tom Flynn, Ron Glaser, and Don Kojis. Check the records. Others I liked and belong on 2nd tier were
Trevor, Powell, Damon Key, Sam Worthen and Gary Brell. Think Bernard
Toone would have been with Chones and Lucas if he would have applied
himself. Memories.
,
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Jared McNeal #1 scorer in MU history
Dom James #3 all-time (George Thompson #2)
Interesting that they have gotten almost no mention, especially Dom James.
Jerel wasn't the best player on his team. James was better. Lazar was better for 3 years. Matthews would have been better for 4 years, if not for the setup under Crean. Jerel was a volume scorer, shot us out of as many games as he kept them in. Was a good defensive player, who also cost us the 09 nova game on a back door cut when he was caught ball watching.
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Putting Trevor Powell and Gary Brell in same sentence should ban that person from attending games for a decade.
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Jared McNeal #1 scorer in MU history
Dom James #3 all-time (George Thompson #2)
Interesting that they have gotten almost no mention, especially Dom James.
How has no one pointed out that Marquette's leading scorer who left less than a decade ago (so fresh in the memory) is apparently easy to confuse with the Subway guy? Jared? Seriously?
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Jerel wasn't the best player on his team. James was better. Lazar was better for 3 years. Matthews would have been better for 4 years, if not for the setup under Crean. Jerel was a volume scorer, shot us out of as many games as he kept them in. Was a good defensive player, who also cost us the 09 nova game on a back door cut when he was caught ball watching.
Remember that nova game. That defensive lapse by McNeal cost us big time and should never have occurred at that point by a supposed good defender. He was hugely overrated as a defensive player.
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Putting Trevor Powell and Gary Brell in same sentence should ban that person from attending games for a decade.
Now C'mon Goose. Trevor Powell and Gary Brell and Polonowski all played for MU. All in the same sentence. No offense meant with that sentence.
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Putting Trevor Powell and Gary Brell in same sentence should ban that person from attending games for a decade.
Trevor Powell was a good player on some really bad Marquette teams. Averaged 11+/6+ in all four years. Lead the nation in eFG as a senior. Top ten in rebounds (and per game) and blocks (and per game) his junior and senior years.
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Remember that nova game. That defensive lapse by McNeal cost us big time and should never have occurred at that point by a supposed good defender. He was hugely overrated as a defensive player.
Yes, had the same tendencies as JaJuan in jumping the ball. Normally, DJ and Wes could cover for him though (except for that Nova game in the BET).
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To put a slightly different spin on this topic. Here is how I rate the top 5 MU players for their combined MU and NBA Careers
1. D Wade- Tops Lucas on basis of more titles and carried MU Individual Achievements through to next level .
2. Lucas- One of Top Players at his position for many years and won a title. One of MU Best.
3. Chones - Was a consistent top level performer for many years and key performer on an NBA title team. MU record of 50-1 speaks for itself
4. Butler- Could rise as career progress. MU performance in the upper echelon.
5. Kojis- 2 time NBA All Star validates Superior Collegiate Performance at MU (18.6 p/15.1 r)
Honorable Mention
Wes Matthews- If he gets an NBA title could move up . MU performance in the Upper Echelon.
Earl Tatum NBA Career Cut Short by Injury clearly Top 10 at MU
***Glenn Rivers - If Rivers NBA Coaching Career is included with NBA and College he would be top 5
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Willie
All played at MU and all appreciated. If you are having discussion on all time greats, the conversation should remain intelligent. Trevor Powell is as much as an all time great as Pat Foley. He was a nice player in the darkest era of MU ball in my lifetime.
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Willie
All played at MU and all appreciated. If you are having discussion on all time greats, the conversation should remain intelligent. Trevor Powell is as much as an all time great as Pat Foley. He was a nice player in the darkest era of MU ball in my lifetime.
Powell way beyond Foley. Trevor was a very good player on bad Dukiet teams, that's all. A guy like him would be very helpful this year.
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Putting Trevor Powell and Gary Brell in same sentence should ban that person from attending games for a decade.
Of course, those of us who saw both guys know the difference.
Kinda like the poster that put Aaron Hutchins in the top 5 while not including Lee or Meminger. Beyond belief. It is not just recency bias - I don't think some people are able to recognize greatness.
You talked about the difference between good and great players in a post. It is shocking how many people have no concept of the difference.
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How has no one pointed out that Marquette's leading scorer who left less than a decade ago (so fresh in the memory) is apparently easy to confuse with the Subway guy? Jared? Seriously?
That was just Heisy. We expect that from him. ;D
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Trevor Powell was a good player on some really bad Marquette teams. Averaged 11+/6+ in all four years. Lead the nation in eFG as a senior. Top ten in rebounds (and per game) and blocks (and per game) his junior and senior years.
I think you made his point.
Brell had better scoring and rebounding numbers while on the floor with Chones, Meminger, and Lackey, among others.
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Question was --"Top 5 Players at MU" strictly college.
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1. Lee (don't see how this is a debate. Final Four Most Outstanding Player for national champs in 77, National Player of the Year in 78)
2. Wade (Fantastic all around player)
3. Ellis (Key player on two Final Four teams is hard to ignore)
4. Thompson (Based on what so many here have said)
5. Lucas (Best player on a Final Four Team)
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1. Lee (don't see how this is a debate. Final Four Most Outstanding Player for national champs in 77, National Player of the Year in 78)
2. Wade (Fantastic all around player)
3. Ellis (Key player on two Final Four teams is hard to ignore)
4. Thompson (Based on what so many here have said)
5. Lucas (Best player on a Final Four Team)
I would have to go with Dean the Dream over Brute Force. George was a very good player who was important in opening recruiting avenues for Al, but Dean was simply better. Loved them both.
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Earl Tatum
Of course we are talking 5 greatest players ever to play at MU. I have no idea how professional performance falls into this conversation.
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I think you made his point.
Brell had better scoring and rebounding numbers while on the floor with Chones, Meminger, and Lackey, among others.
I get that. But let's not act like he was some scrub. For instance, if he would have been on the O'Neill S16 team, I think he could have slid into the Damon Key role pretty well.
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I get that. But let's not act like he was some scrub. For instance, if he would have been on the O'Neill S16 team, I think he could have slid into the Damon Key role pretty well.
You're right. I didn't mean to denigrate Powell. Just pointing out that Brell was a better player.
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In the three years Meminger ran the team:
78 wins 9 losses
Home: 46 wins 0 losses
Case Closed!
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In the three years Meminger ran the team:
78 wins 9 losses
Home: 46 wins 0 losses
Case Closed!
Agree. I don't see how anyone could keep Dean off their team any more than they could keep off Lee or Wade. He was the engine that ran a team that had incredible success over three years.
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Diener should probably be above everyone else on this list except for Wade. And I'd say DJO and Jae were better college players than Butler. Maybe even better than Matthews, thanks to Coach Tom Crean holding that dude back.
Haven't been through all of this yet, but I love that it took like 8 posts before Wade's had to tell someone that their personal opinions were wrong.
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dgies9156
IMO, MU has had great players that would have been great anywhere they went. Have also had players that might have been great if they went elsewhere. The great one's are noticed even by casual fans. I am tough grader and many of the post Al names mentioned do not register as great or even very good to me.
Goose:
Surprisingly, I tend to agree. I'm a tough, outcome-based grader as well. In that vein, here are my thoughts as the five best post-Al Marquette players. I would challenge folks to place these guys against the Al era best:
DWade -- Clearly the best player since 1978 and maybe the best player ever for Marquette. The Kentucky game in Minneapolis probably was the best single game ever played by someone wearing an MU jersey
Tony Smith -- Great player, good person and bad teams. I really liked this guy and thought it was a real shame the teams weren't better while he was here
Jeral McNeal -- Again, great ballplayer. Probably stacked up well against the Al era players
Jim McIlvaine -- Best center we had since Jerome Whitehead. Why is it that Racine produces the best centers ever from our program!
Steve Novak -- Tank about automatic! This guy had the best shot I've seen in ages and what he did against Missouri as a freshman in 2002 was one for the ages.
All five of these guys probably could have played for Al. Two other notables would be Sam Worthen and Oliver Lee. I left Rivers off as well, though if a career were based on a mega-long range shot that beat Notre Dame, he'd be on the list. Guy was good but, I like this group better!
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Goose:
Surprisingly, I tend to agree. I'm a tough, outcome-based grader as well. In that vein, here are my thoughts as the five best post-Al Marquette players. I would challenge folks to place these guys against the Al era best:
DWade -- Clearly the best player since 1978 and maybe the best player ever for Marquette. The Kentucky game in Minneapolis probably was the best single game ever played by someone wearing an MU jersey
Tony Smith -- Great player, good person and bad teams. I really liked this guy and thought it was a real shame the teams weren't better while he was here
Jeral McNeal -- Again, great ballplayer. Probably stacked up well against the Al era players
Jim McIlvaine -- Best center we had since Jerome Whitehead. Why is it that Racine produces the best centers ever from our program!
Steve Novak -- Tank about automatic! This guy had the best shot I've seen in ages and what he did against Missouri as a freshman in 2002 was one for the ages.
All five of these guys probably could have played for Al. Two other notables would be Sam Worthen and Oliver Lee. I left Rivers off as well, though if a career were based on a mega-long range shot that beat Notre Dame, he'd be on the list. Guy was good but, I like this group better!
So while these guys had the talent to play for Al would they have been recruited? Based on the narrative of some of the older posters we'd look something like KU or something which I don't believe any of these guys had a shot at going to.
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My first Team is-Wade, Ellis, Lee, Chones and Hayward.
Cheating
Second Team--Meminger or 1st Team, Lucas, McNeil, Thompson, Rivers
Third Team---Mike Moran, Rand, Kojis, Worthen, Powell, Key and Bob Wolf. Some of these old timers were very good.
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Haven't been through all of this yet, but I love that it took like 8 posts before Wade's had to tell someone that their personal opinions were wrong.
Hmm. I might've missed it somewhere in there, but where did I say anything about someone's opinions being wrong? I offered my own opinion on the matter, just like...well, this entire thread. Lol.
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I hope you realize that McNeal, Hayward, and James played 4 years to Thompson's 3 years.
None of them could touch George as a scorer.
...and no 3 pt basket as well.
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Ya no, dis 'hole thread is like bitchin' woos old lady is betta lookin', ai na?
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4ever
If talking about 10-12guys I agree. When Michael Wilson, Tony Miller, Hayward and others get mentioned I feel we have an obligation to knock that down.
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Yer wright. I completely lose it when Jerel enters da discussion, hey?
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4ever
If talking about 10-12guys I agree. When Michael Wilson, Tony Miller, Hayward and others get mentioned I feel we have an obligation to knock that down.
With all due respect Hayward was an honorable mention all American and a first rounder. Miller was a 2nd team all conference in a mid major league. Wilson was a third rounder. There's actually some national people who'd agree lazar was one of our all time greats it'd be hard to find people who'd list the other two in that convo
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I never recall the Great Midwest being labelled a "mid major" at the time. It most certainly did not have that reputation.
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I never recall the Great Midwest being labelled a "mid major" at the time. It most certainly did not have that reputation.
It wasn't. UC was regularly a top-10 team, and MU and Memphis had nice seasons too. Even SLU had a nice season with Larry Hughes.
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Bagpiping
The all time greats were first team all Americans and never were on teams not ranked in top ten. The three guys mentioned fall into the good category, not the very good group.
Earl Tatum would be the standard of very good to me and none of the other guys mentioned could carry Earl's jockstrap. Again, I fully understand why the bar for the program is where it currently is set.
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In terms of the purposes of this conversation, Chris Crawford does not belong.
However, he had a 7 year NBA career and made more money than any of us (except Chicos) could ever dream of. For that matter, guys like Sam Worthen, Artie Green, Gary Brell, lazar Hayward, etc. would have killed for Crawfor's career. On top of it, he's from Kalamazoo!
Go figure.
Hi Jamie.
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4 ever
Jerel was never the best player on any MU team he played on.
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Bagpiping
The all time greats were first team all Americans and never were on teams not ranked in top ten. The three guys mentioned fall into the good category, not the very good group.
Earl Tatum would be the standard of very good to me and none of the other guys mentioned could carry Earl's jockstrap. Again, I fully understand why the bar for the program is where it currently is set.
What is "I fully understand why the bar for the program is where it currently is set" supposed to mean? That I don't want us to win? It's comments like that that got you accused of being whinny and negative during the season and you started complaining about those accusations.
with due respect you're coming off like a dad who's kid could have been all American and you'd still say "eh you still couldn't stand up to the guys from when I was young" we don't have many all Americans in our history and those that were are a pretty darn elite group. Unless you're going to claim that all American standards have lowered in which case I'd argue you have the exact opposite of recencey bias where "everything was better when I was a youngin"
http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/all-americans
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What is "I fully understand why the bar for the program is where it currently is set" supposed to mean? That I don't want us to win? It's comments like that that got you accused of being whinny and negative during the season and you started complaining about those accusations.
with due respect you're coming off like a dad who's kid could have been all American and you'd still say "eh you still couldn't stand up to the guys from when I was young" we don't have many all Americans in our history and those that were are a pretty darn elite group. Unless you're going to claim that all American standards have lowered in which case I'd argue you have the exact opposite of recencey bias where "everything was better when I was a youngin"
http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/all-americans
Football analogy. See Joe Namath. Johnny (sp) Unitas, etc
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Bagpiping
Have a nice night.
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4 ever
Jerel was never the best player on any MU team he played on.
Frankly, one of the dumbest basketball players, on the court, who ever wore the Warrior uni, hey?
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What is "I fully understand why the bar for the program is where it currently is set" supposed to mean? That I don't want us to win? It's comments like that that got you accused of being whinny and negative during the season and you started complaining about those accusations.
with due respect you're coming off like a dad who's kid could have been all American and you'd still say "eh you still couldn't stand up to the guys from when I was young" we don't have many all Americans in our history and those that were are a pretty darn elite group. Unless you're going to claim that all American standards have lowered in which case I'd argue you have the exact opposite of recencey bias where "everything was better when I was a youngin"
http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/all-americans
This is watt I'm talkin' 'bout. Everythin' is dummied down and let's hand out participatin' metals, hey?
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Football analogy. See Joe Namath. Johnny (sp) Unitas, etc
Not a big football guy. Can you give a NBA or Boxing analogy?
Bagpiping
Have a nice night.
Either you're reading the wrong emotion from my comment or only willing to make false accusations about my standards and not back them up. But you have a nice night as well.
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when i look back at the "hey day" and the AL years, i'd love to go back for just one day to re-appreciate them. man that was a great time but we(I) didn't even know how great of a time it was, at the time. when i catch myself talking to my boys(MU grads '09 and '12) about AL and his teams, i have to stop...ya really just had to be there. my point is, and i'm not trying to suck up to anyone, but goose and 4ever are right on. glow i think was there and a few others. as far as i'm concerned, these guys are the E.F. huttons of MU b-ball and it was a helluva a ride!
goose-loved the composure
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Frankly, one of the dumbest basketball players, on the court, who ever wore the Warrior uni, hey?
Polo only scored in the wrong basket. O-Lee decided to try out for Club Football QB. Looney Toone punched his coach at halftime. Mboa didn't know how to guard the inbounds. Crean out coached by an assistant. That is a high bar of dumb.
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when i look back at the "hey day" and the AL years, i'd love to go back for just one day to re-appreciate them. man that was a great time but we(I) didn't even know how great of a time it was, at the time. when i catch myself talking to my boys(MU grads '09 and '12) about AL and his teams, i have to stop...ya really just had to be there. my point is, and i'm not trying to suck up to anyone, but goose and 4ever are right on. glow i think was there and a few others. as far as i'm concerned, these guys are the E.F. huttons of MU b-ball and it was a helluva a ride!
I lived through the Al era while I was growing up. My dad had season tix starting in about '72, and I was in the Omni that night in '77. You're spot on in saying that many of us didn't realize how incredibly lucky we were - it was just such a given that we would be in the top 10 that we got spoiled.
We've had some fun and talented teams more recently - the '94 run under KO, the '03 Final Four, the run of Sweet Sixteens under Buzz - but there is just no comparison to the atmosphere under Al.
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Strictly on how fun they were to watch
1 Cordell Henry
-loved how competitive he was. Inch for inch the toughest guy. And that freethrow line floater was a thing of beauty. I still hate Cincinnati for that cheap low blow in the CUSA tourney.
2 Jerel Mcneal
-Loved his game before he could shoot it from deep. Always left it all on the court. I remember going to games and tracking him on defense and watching him read a passing lane like a safety. I'll never forget the way he took over the madison game down the stretch his senior year. The joy of seeing my buddy, a becky grad, just throw his hands up in a what can you do fashion after he hit a deep contested 3 late. It was beautiful
3- Travis Diener
-Again, an a guy with the drive. So cocky on the court, but could back it up. He kept our program alive when Wade left. Yes i remember the NIT, but we were a tourney team before his injury. I also remember the 26(?, To lazy to fact check) that he had to get us past holy cross during our final four run.
4- Wade
-What can you say that hasn't been said before? He's the best player we will ever see on our court. Watching him split a double team and thunder it down, or seeing him catch a half court alley oop from Cordell and jam through a huge reverse at DePaul (also cutting his hand on the rim), or diving on the ground to steal the ball from Josh Howard in the final minute of a one possession game, and we can't ever forget a game that i was lucky enough to attend in the Kentucky game. When he hit his 2nd three i looked over at my dad and just said "he's gone" knowing it was my last chance to see him in our uniform. He shaped my love of basketball and is probably more deserving of my top rank, but I'm stubborn and he stays put here.
5- Davante gardner
-Such a beast down low in a game that was making a switch to being much more guard oriented. Terrible defender, but that touch down low and nimbleness given his size was a real treat to watch.
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"We've had some fun and talented teams more recently - the '94 run under KO, the '03 Final Four, the run of Sweet Sixteens under Buzz - but there is just no comparison to the atmosphere under Al."
that's all goose is trying to say-if we are talking about "greatest" MU players, words do no justice to try to describe the good ole days because it was just so special. the legend of AL will never be repeated. has MU been a crap hole of b-ball ever since? except for a couple years, there has been some pretty good/exciting stuff. but when the subject of AL and his boys come up, goose pimple(no pun intended) and tears of emotion are produced almost as a parasympathetic reaction.
GOOOO-you know what i'm talking about. admittedly, you cannot leave dwade off the short list, but all the rest belong to "the day"
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How anyone can leave George Thompson off that list is beyond me.
Edit: not you Willie as you clicked just before me.
Must remember the age of the responders. Brute Force George had to be seen to know how he took over games.
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Class
George is hands down an all time great. Prior to Wade he would be in my top five. A man against boys during his time at MU.
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Frankly, one of the dumbest basketball players, on the court, who ever wore the Warrior uni, hey?
Jerel is MU's all time leading scorer. And yeah he turned the ball over a little too much and took too many chances defensively, but this is really over-the-top stupid.
And IMO he may not have been the best player on any of his MU's teams. But it is far more debatable than Goose and you are leading people to believe.
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Jerel was very good. But even he would disagree with being MU top 5.
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I understand people's predilection towards choosing familiar, "I went to school with that guy" or "I saw that guy on the court" players. Perfectly normal. However, the simple truth is our best players (for the most part) come from the era when we were an elite (maybe #2 in the nation) program. The 10 teams from 1969 -1978 are ALL top 15 (or better) in Marquette's entire history. It only stands to reason that the best players from that era would be our best historically speaking. D Wade is an outlier. He's first team great. Kojis, Rand, Doc Rivers, Tony Smith, JFB, Jae and maybe a few others were borderline great but fall short of Thompson, Meminger, Chones, Lucas, Ellis, Tatum and Lee.
I saw Reggie Jackson play. Hall of Famer. Never saw Ruth, but have enough respect for the game's (and team's) history to acknowledge he's head and shoulders above Reggie.
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Jerel was very good. But even he would disagree with being MU top 5.
As would I. I wouldn't even put him in the top 10-15.
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Lenny
Well said. There were a ton of good to very good players players post Al and that list is impressive. That said, just because they were good to very good does not make them all time greats. Your analogy on Reggie vs. Ruth was spot on. I never saw Kojis play but have been told by folks who saw him play that he was very impressive. Again, we sure were lucky to see the all time greats play up close.
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I saw Reggie Jackson play. Hall of Famer. Never saw Ruth, but have enough respect for the game's (and team's) history to acknowledge he's head and shoulders above Reggie.
I don't know: Did fans ever throw Baby Ruths on the field like they did Reggie Bars?
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/reggie-jackson-yankees-candy
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Jerel is MU's all time leading scorer. And yeah he turned the ball over a little too much and took too many chances defensively, but this is really over-the-top stupid.
And IMO he may not have been the best player on any of his MU's teams. But it is far more debatable than Goose and you are leading people to believe.
Totally agree.
Jerel's TO rate / ORtg
2006: 29.1 / 87.7
2007: 25.5 / 93.7
2008: 19.5 / 104.4
2009: 17.1 / 108.6
People developed a narrative about Jerel his frosh/soph year of a wildly inefficient offensive player who got a bunch of steals by gambling/jumping lanes and never changed it in their minds. The fact is, he cut his turnovers by more than half over the course of his career and his efficiency went way up. Steals went down over time as he became smarter about when to gamble.
Jerel was a total badass as a frosh/soph - brought a mental edge to the team from day 1. Once he learned to harness his ability properly (a.k.a the normal progression of a college player), he was a great all-around player as an upperclassman.
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As would I. I wouldn't even put him in the top 10-15.
Nowhere near my top 10-15. A bit too selfish and out of control for my taste.
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I think if Jerel would have been a fringe player his first two years, and then had the same exact junior and senior years, people would feel much better about him. He was forced to play from day one.
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I think if Jerel would have been a fringe player his first two years, and then had the same exact junior and senior years, people would feel much better about him. He was forced to play from day one.
Precisely
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I don't think many feel badly about Jerel. Yes, he had obvious "issues" (including his temper) as we've noted here, but he was still an excellent player. This thread is just about the very top MU players of all time. He is not quite at that level. I would take a Jerel right now without a blink.
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Class
George is hands down an all time great. Prior to Wade he would be in my top five. A man against boys during his time at MU.
OK Goose. To respectfully disagree with you... and I do so out of love for the program.
George was one of the Top 6 or 7 all time greats to play for Marquette. But he was a power forward and to make him one of the five best ever, you'd have place him over Maurice Lucas and Bo Ellis.
I agree with everything you say about George but Maurice and Bo were the best ever at their positions. I hope that does not diminish George's contribution to our program, but Mo and Bo made it to the NCAA Championship. And they were integral parts of our success at the absolute highest levels of college basketball.
DWade is still best I ever saw at MU and I'm of the Al generation. He would have started for Al and Al would have loved him.
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OK Goose. To respectfully disagree with you... and I do so out of love for the program.
George was one of the Top 6 or 7 all time greats to play for Marquette. But he was a power forward and to make him one of the five best ever, you'd have place him over Maurice Lucas and Bo Ellis.
Positions were not nearly as well defined 40-50 years ago like they are now. George was simply a 6'2" forward.
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I don't know: Did fans ever throw Baby Ruths on the field like they did Reggie Bars?
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/reggie-jackson-yankees-candy
A friend in high school was a huge Yankees (and Jackson) fan, so he bought a Reggie Bar for me. It actually was pretty good.
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Positions were not nearly as well defined 40-50 years ago like they are now. George was simply a 6'2" forward.
And George was a pretty darn good guard in the ABA for years so he had good range/handles.
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A friend in high school was a huge Yankees (and Jackson) fan, so he bought a Reggie Bar for me. It actually was pretty good.
Found it surprisingly tasty. I was in the old stadium when this incident happened-opening day 1978. he hit it his first at bat. Since he had homered in his last 3 at bats in the series the year before,( was at that game too) that was 4 straight round trippers.
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Butler
Crowder
Wade
Hayward
DJO
Anything prior to 2008 I don't care too much about. But Wade in there because, well, he probably deserves to be in there.
Wade
Lee
Crowder
Chones
Ellis
Meminger-Lucas-Butler-Thompson-Rand all close.
To the new fans I say the teams who were ranked in the top few teams of all time simply must be up there because the sum of the parts was so good. Also, Butch Lee was the national player of the year, and Wade might have been the best player in the country - but played the same year as Carmelo. In the end you can't top those two.
To the nostalgic fans I say the early era never played anything like the level of opponents that Crowder, Butler, Hayward and McNeal faced. Those guys played more elite opponents every season than the pre big East guys played in a career. Level of competition must be a factor.
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Wade
Lee
Crowder
Chones
Ellis
Meminger-Lucas-Butler-Thompson-Rand all close.
To the new fans I say the teams who were ranked in the top few teams of all time simply must be up there because the sum of the parts was so good. Also, Butch Lee was the national player of the year, and Wade might have been the best player in the country - but played the same year as Carmelo. In the end you can't top those two.
To the nostalgic fans I say the early era never played anything like the level of opponents that Crowder, Butler, Hayward and McNeal faced. Those guys played more elite opponents every season than the pre big East guys played in a career. Level of competition must be a factor.
We had excellent schedules when we were independent. We played home and home with some very good teams who were quality in their day. For example , Detroit was a top program with some of the very best players of the ear, guys like Dave Debusschere and Spencer Haywood and later they were coached by Dick Vitale and had some very competitive teams. We also played home and home with Loyola who won a NCAA tournament , home and home with the Badgers etc. Notre Dame and Fordham were major players back then as well. DePaul had Ray Meyer etc.
Also because we were independent and there were so few spots open in the tournament(s), every single game was important just like it is with a conference today. Maybe even more so .
The old guys were great because they did extremely well against good competition .
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Wade
Lee
Crowder
Chones
Ellis
Meminger-Lucas-Butler-Thompson-Rand all close.
To the new fans I say the teams who were ranked in the top few teams of all time simply must be up there because the sum of the parts was so good. Also, Butch Lee was the national player of the year, and Wade might have been the best player in the country - but played the same year as Carmelo. In the end you can't top those two.
To the nostalgic fans I say the early era never played anything like the level of opponents that Crowder, Butler, Hayward and McNeal faced. Those guys played more elite opponents every season than the pre big East guys played in a career. Level of competition must be a factor.
Good stuff, Auburn. Some minor disagreement (Crowder a wee bit too high, George T a little low, but overall very well reasoned. I'm an old-timer, but your point about level of competition is well taken - the independent schedule pales next to the "old Big East" gauntlet. The one guy you mention who I just don't get is McNeal - he's not in my top 30. Where does he come in on your list?
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Starters
Lee
Wade
Ellis
Chones
Kojis
Off the bench
Meminger
Thompson
Lucas
Novak
Whitehead
Tatum
McNeil
Matthews
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Starters
Lee
Wade
Ellis
Chones
Kojis
Off the bench
Meminger
Thompson
Lucas
Novak
Whitehead
Tatum
McNeil
Matthews
Peak-BEast POY Crowder has to be somewhere on there
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Ah the top 5 players thread. An off-season tradition as old as scoop.
From everything I've heard, I think our it's accurate to say that Wade was our all time greatest and then spots 2-5 could be filled by 7 or 8 different players from the McGuire era.
I started watching in the early 90s but couldn't really appreciate talent until the Deane years. Top 5 players I have watched:
Dwyane Wade
Aaron Hutchins
Jimmy Butler
Jae Crowder
Dominic James
Travis Diener, Lazar Hayward, and Robert Jackson were the three hardest for me to leave off.
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Ah the top 5 players thread. An off-season tradition as old as scoop.
From everything I've heard, I think our it's accurate to say that Wade was our all time greatest and then spots 2-5 could be filled by 7 or 8 different players from the McGuire era.
I started watching in the early 90s but couldn't really appreciate talent until the Deane years. Top 5 players I have watched:
Dwyane Wade
Aaron Hutchins
Jimmy Butler
Jae Crowder
Dominic James
Travis Diener, Lazar Hayward, and Robert Jackson were the three hardest for me to leave off.
Loved Hutch and DJ, But Travis was much better than both. So was Lazar. At least to my "eyes" - don't know what the numbers say.
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Loved Hutch and DJ, But Travis was much better than both. So was Lazar. At least to my "eyes" - don't know what the numbers say.
No numbers here. Purely my eyes and what I remember feeling when I watched them
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Peak-BEast POY Crowder has to be somewhere on there
Should McNeal as BEast Defensive POY?
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Should McNeal as BEast Defensive POY?
No, he was not a very good offensive player the year he won that award