MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: ChicosBailBonds on May 21, 2008, 12:48:39 AM
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http://blogs.indystar.com/hoosiersinsider/archives/2008/05/q_a_with_bennie.html
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Other then Erik Williams who were the other Marquette '09 commits Seltzer is talking about?
"If I was still at Marquette, we were done for this year. We had two or maybe three commitments for the '09 class."
No knock, just a question. ;D
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Other then Erik Williams who were the other Marquette '09 commits Seltzer is talking about?
"If I was still at Marquette, we were done for this year. We had two or maybe three commitments for the '09 class."
No knock, just a question. ;D
Maurice Creek and Bobby Whatshisname, perhaps?
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"Regardless if he's at Marquette or if he's at Indiana, that's how he coaches. So therefore the type of kid that we're going to recruit here at Indiana will still be the same type of kid that we would have recruited at Marquette because the system doesn't change."
I guess that means MU won't have to worry about recruiting against IU for talented bigs.
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He's an up-tempo coach. We're going to fast break and shoot 3's, defend. Do all those things. Share the basketball. That's just his style.
Oh yeah...they'll shoot the 3s, they might not make them but they'll shoot them.
Uptempo? This is the same guy who has 300 sets. Uptempo vs Savannah State, no tempo vs Michigan State.
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Oh yeah...they'll shoot the 3s, they might not make them but they'll shoot them.
Uptempo? This is the same guy who has 300 sets. Uptempo vs Savannah State, no tempo vs Michigan State.
+100
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Other then Erik Williams who were the other Marquette '09 commits Seltzer is talking about?
"If I was still at Marquette, we were done for this year. We had two or maybe three commitments for the '09 class."
No knock, just a question. ;D
No inside knowledge but I have to believe that Jamil Wilson was in hand for MU. There were to many winks by IWB and lack of effort by Michigan St and Duke and UW throwing in the towel to think otherwise. We can hate TC all we want but having Eric Williams and Jamil Wilson along with Nick Williams and Ty Taylor would have kept us in the top 6 of the Big East for the next few years at least. Now its all unknown.
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No inside knowledge but I have to believe that Jamil Wilson was in hand for MU. There were to many winks by IWB and lack of effort by Michigan St and Duke and UW throwing in the towel to think otherwise. We can hate TC all we want but having Eric Williams and Jamil Wilson along with Nick Williams and Ty Taylor would have kept us in the top 6 of the Big East for the next few years at least. Now its all unknown.
If this is true, it really makes Crean's departure seem oddly timed. MU's future was pretty rosy with that squad. Much longer and just as athletic as the current squad. Frankly, I don't think Crean liked that expectations were growing. He is much better at resurrecting/rebuilding than he is at competing consistently for conference titles. I think he took a cowards way out by going to it's Indiana, it's Indiana. Now he can do what he does best: build a team from the rubble. By the time he finally has IU firing on all cylinders he will probably end up leaving for it's the NBA, it's the NBA.
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If this is true, it really makes Crean's departure seem oddly timed. MU's future was pretty rosy with that squad. Much longer and just as athletic as the current squad. Frankly, I don't think Crean liked that expectations were growing. He is much better at resurrecting/rebuilding than he is at competing consistently for conference titles. I think he took a cowards way out by going to it's Indiana, it's Indiana. Now he can do what he does best: build a team from the rubble. By the time he finally has IU firing on all cylinders he will probably end up leaving for it's the NBA, it's the NBA.
+1....I swear you might have just nailed it right on the head.
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If this is true, it really makes Crean's departure seem oddly timed. MU's future was pretty rosy with that squad. Much longer and just as athletic as the current squad. Frankly, I don't think Crean liked that expectations were growing. He is much better at resurrecting/rebuilding than he is at competing consistently for conference titles. I think he took a cowards way out by going to it's Indiana, it's Indiana. Now he can do what he does best: build a team from the rubble. By the time he finally has IU firing on all cylinders he will probably end up leaving for it's the NBA, it's the NBA.
Cowards way out? Man, you guys crack me up. He left for a Top 10 program, one of the best in college basketball. Get over it.
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If this is true, it really makes Crean's departure seem oddly timed. MU's future was pretty rosy with that squad. Much longer and just as athletic as the current squad. Frankly, I don't think Crean liked that expectations were growing. He is much better at resurrecting/rebuilding than he is at competing consistently for conference titles. I think he took a cowards way out by going to it's Indiana, it's Indiana. Now he can do what he does best: build a team from the rubble. By the time he finally has IU firing on all cylinders he will probably end up leaving for it's the NBA, it's the NBA.
I know defending Crean isn't popular around here, but ...
How is going to a program that's losing most of its roster and about to be put on probation "cowardly" compared to staying with a team expected to compete for a Big East title next year and, perhaps, having two stellar recruiting classes on the way?
If anything, Crean chose the harder path. Building a team up from the rubble with huge expecations from an overbearing fan base rather than staying in a comfortable situation is not the easy way out. Hate him for it, if you like, but what Crean did was far from cowardly.
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If this is true, it really makes Crean's departure seem oddly timed. MU's future was pretty rosy with that squad. Much longer and just as athletic as the current squad. Frankly, I don't think Crean liked that expectations were growing. He is much better at resurrecting/rebuilding than he is at competing consistently for conference titles. I think he took a cowards way out by going to it's Indiana, it's Indiana. Now he can do what he does best: build a team from the rubble. By the time he finally has IU firing on all cylinders he will probably end up leaving for it's the NBA, it's the NBA.
I'm having trouble with this one. Taking a job at IU, with expectations through the roof normally, inheriting a scandal ridden program, doesn't sound like a cowardly move.
I do think MU was likely to get Jamil Wilson, now I'm not so sure.
People don't like to hear it, but "it's Indiana" and that means a lot to many coaches, whether people here want to admit that or not. It is still Indiana
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I am sorry to be (another) bearer of bad news but the head coaching jobs at Marquette and Indiana are not equal.
I believe any coach seeking to reach the upper echelon of the profession in today's world and given the opportunity to choose would pick Indiana over Marquette -- regardless of incoming classes at Marquette or current scandal/problems at Indiana.
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Q&A with Tim Buckley about IU and MU
http://blogs.indystar.com/hoosiersinsider/archives/2008/05/q_a_with_tim_bu.html
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79, Paks and Cheecos, solid.
I don't see how that's 'cowardly'. If anything, it's the most egotistical think Crean could ever do.
"I've turned MU around. Now let's see what I can do at IU with all that they have going against it!"
To be successful at that level, you have to be somewhat arrogant, self-assured, and confident. Still shocked by the timing, but IU is more elite than MU whether anyone wants to buy that or not.
The one thing that I still find humorous is that for everyone here that rips Crean for taking the gig, if we were to have hired a proven winner - as I and most people wanted - MU would have had to do the same thing IU did. That is, take someone's coach away. It's just how it goes.
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but IU is more elite than MU whether anyone wants to buy that or not.
Exactly right. People try to dissect the move, and blame it on any number of things. He left for one reason...Indiana is one of the true elite jobs. You just don't turn it down. And, on top of it all, he's making even more money.
The one thing that I still find humorous is that for everyone here that rips Crean for taking the gig, if we were to have hired a proven winner - as I and most people wanted - MU would have had to do the same thing IU did. That is, take someone's coach away. It's just how it goes.
I don't want to start a multiple page b*tch fest, but who would you have liked to have been hired? Critics wanted someone else, OK who?? (Bennett, Miller, and Grant dont count as they were not interested). I wouldn't have minded Chris Lowery, but he's still unproven to a certain degree. Weber and Painter built it prior to him.
I'm going to start rambling, but that's what gets lost in the shuffle often times. Coaches walk into cherry situations at the mid-major level, and then get a high major gig. Who else was the no-brainer pic?? There's risks with everybody...Buzz, everybody.
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Yes, there are risks with everyone....just different levels of risk.
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Yes, there are risks with everyone....just different levels of risk.
Different levels of risk or different types of risk?
I guess it all depends on who you're asking.
For some pretty solid reasons, IMO, Cottingham placed a premium on recruiting ability when hiring Williams. Whatever else you think of Buzz, he's a guy who has proven himself as a quality recruiter at every level, and he's a guy who's been around "big time" college basketball.
The risk of the hire is that he has very little experience as a head coach.
Guys like Lowery, Brownell or Les have the head coaching experience Williams lacks, but none have experience in a high-level program or recruiting against other high-level programs.
Could they be great recruiters at a high-level programs? It's definitely possible. But that's every bit as much of an unknown as whether Buzz can coach at a high-level program.
I guess it all depends on what kind of risk is preferable to you. Would you rather have a recruiter who may not be a very capable coach or a coach who may not be a very capable recruiter?
Some might suggest we had the former in Tom Crean and the latter in Mike Deane. Judge for yourself which is preferable.
But I'm a firm believer that players, not coaches, win games, so my preference is the former.
Ideally, of course, you want a guy who is proven as a coach and a high-major recruiter. But I didn't see that guy among MU's realistic options.
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The departed left for more money and was tired of being Strong's homeboy.
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I love typos. I do wonder what the reason is for this one:
When I was at Oklahoma, I didn't think do anything wrong at Oklahoma.
So Bennie, did you think anything wrong, or did you do anything wrong? Or is it that you "didn't think you did anything wrong"?
This may be overanalysis, but it's at least a little intriguing, no?
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Pakuni -- If you feel that strong recruiting was the number one thing we were looking for -- and I don't completely disagree with you or Cottingham on this -- are you suggesting that Buzz Williams had the best recruiting track record of anybody available? If so, what are you basing this on? Fulce and Otule? Really?
Cottingham should have needed a diamond tipped drill bit to dig deep enough down a list of candidates before hitting Buzz.
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Pakuni -- If you feel that strong recruiting was the number one thing we were looking for -- and I don't completely disagree with you or Cottingham on this -- are you suggesting that Buzz Williams had the best recruiting track record of anybody available? If so, what are you basing this on? Fulce and Otule? Really?
Funny you make no mention of Erik Williams, DeAndre Jordan (future lottery pick), Antanas Kavaliauskas, Josh Carter, Donald Sloan, Brian Davis, Jason Smith (NBA first-round pick), etc.
Anyhow, of the names that have been bandied about as realistic options -- Lowery, Les, Brownell -- then yes, I do believe has he best recruiting chops of the bunch. Who do you believe has a better track record as a recruiter?
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Funny you make no mention of Erik Williams, DeAndre Jordan (future lottery pick), Antanas Kavaliauskas, Josh Carter, Donald Sloan, Brian Davis, Jason Smith (NBA first-round pick), etc.
Anyhow, of the names that have been bandied about as realistic options -- Lowery, Les, Brownell -- then yes, I do believe has he best recruiting chops of the bunch. Who do you believe has a better track record as a recruiter?
Groce...Ohio State ;)
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How about the Groce, the associate head coach from Ohio State? He has helped recruit much better classes than Williams, is more familiar with the Midwest and has far more experience at high D1 than Williams. Did he not warrant an interview? He's much more qualified than Buzz Williams, that's for sure. Do you not think he'd take more than $1 million annually to coach Marquette?
Or how about Mark Montgomery from Michigan State, if you want to stick with MSU assistants.
That's just two guys who would be more understandable than an assistant we grabbed because Crean had trouble filling out his staff last year. Then again, it's not my job to find qualifed candidates. But I do know an unqualified candidate when I see one.
Why do you guys not admit we were too lazy to look around? It's so obvious it's not even funny. Marquette fans shouldn't be apprehensive, we should be legitimately angry.
It's like somebody let Cottingham take their brand new Cadillac for a drive and he brought it back with a smashed windshield, one headlight, no taillights, an empty gas tank and a couple of discarded condoms in the backseat.
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Different levels of risk or different types of risk?
I guess it all depends on who you're asking.
For some pretty solid reasons, IMO, Cottingham placed a premium on recruiting ability when hiring Williams. Whatever else you think of Buzz, he's a guy who has proven himself as a quality recruiter at every level, and he's a guy who's been around "big time" college basketball.
The risk of the hire is that he has very little experience as a head coach.
Guys like Lowery, Brownell or Les have the head coaching experience Williams lacks, but none have experience in a high-level program or recruiting against other high-level programs.
Could they be great recruiters at a high-level programs? It's definitely possible. But that's every bit as much of an unknown as whether Buzz can coach at a high-level program.
I guess it all depends on what kind of risk is preferable to you. Would you rather have a recruiter who may not be a very capable coach or a coach who may not be a very capable recruiter?
Some might suggest we had the former in Tom Crean and the latter in Mike Deane. Judge for yourself which is preferable.
But I'm a firm believer that players, not coaches, win games, so my preference is the former.
Ideally, of course, you want a guy who is proven as a coach and a high-major recruiter. But I didn't see that guy among MU's realistic options.
I'm a firm believer that good players with good coaching is the way to go. ;) You also mentioned that....I think MU should have made a run for someone that fit that mold beyond just Miller, but they chose not to.
As for the great recruiter viewpoint, yes that can be the way to go but as you've so well stated in the past...the landscape is littered with coaches that didn't fare well...in this case littered with great recruiters who couldn't coach.
Steve Lavin was a great recruiter, as an example. Mike Jarvis was a great recruiter. Steve Fischer. Many others that seemed to struggle on the X's and O's.
Let's hope Buzz can do both...we'll find out eventually one way or the other
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Steve Lavin was a great recruiter, as an example. Mike Jarvis was a great recruiter. Steve Fischer. Many others that seemed to struggle on the X's and O's.
Let's hope Buzz can do both...we'll find out eventually one way or the other
I think most MU fans would be thrilled with the kind of results Steve Lavin had in Westwood. Six straight NCAA appearances, five Sweet Sixteens, one Elite Eight, 145 wins against 78 losses, etc.
Those may be disappointing results to the spoiled lot at UCLA, but most of us would take it.
Funny you mention Jarvis, because by and large that's exactly the kind of guy you've been calling for here. He was a tremendous mid-major success and a proven head coach when St. John's hired him. Unfortunately, the pressures of big-time college basketball got he best of him.
As for Groce ... I think he would have made for an excellent candidate.
But I don't see how you can gripe for weeks about Buzz's lack of experience and how MU didn't go after a proven head coach, then pine for a career assistant with less experience than the guy MU chose.
Ultimately, though, we don't know whether he was interested or whether MU had any interest in him.
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I think most MU fans would be thrilled with the kind of results Steve Lavin had in Westwood. Six straight NCAA appearances, five Sweet Sixteens, one Elite Eight, 145 wins against 78 losses, etc.
Those may be disappointing results to the spoiled lot at UCLA, but most of us would take it.
Funny you mention Jarvis, because by and large that's exactly the kind of guy you've been calling for here. He was a tremendous mid-major success and a proven head coach when St. John's hired him. Unfortunately, the pressures of big-time college basketball got he best of him.
As for Groce ... I think he would have made for an excellent candidate.
But I don't see how you can gripe for weeks about Buzz's lack of experience and how MU didn't go after a proven head coach, then pine for a career assistant with less experience than the guy MU chose.
Ultimately, though, we don't know whether he was interested or whether MU had any interest in him.
Actually, I said Groce because you asked the question about who is a potentially better recruiter...that was my answer.
As for Lavin...yeah, definitely had some successes but had many losses like our loss to Louisville (without Diener) in those periods as well. 40 point losses, along with flameouts as a 3 seed early in the tournament. Losing to Princeton and such doesn't go over well either.
And actually Jarvis wouldn't at all fit what I've been calling for the last weeks. I've been calling for a solid coach, Jarvis was never known as that at the mid major level. He was always known as a great recruiter and that's what scares me. A solid coach, like Brownwell, etc means you're always in the game but to your point (and I recognize the validity of it), it means potentially having to beat teams with less talent.
That's why I wanted some that could do both...yeah, tall order. That's why I wanted MU to try a little harder to poke around to try and find an existing coach that met those credentials (a Bruce Weber for example). But just because I was also willing to go midmajor (Keno Davis, Brownwell, etc), let's not make the assumption that I wanted any old midmajor...I wanted a coach (i.e not in name only, someone that knew what they were doing) from that level first, not a Mike Jarvis type. Not a Bobby Gonzalez type.
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.I wanted a coach (i.e not in name only, someone that knew what they were doing) from that level first, not a Mike Jarvis type. Not a Bobby Gonzalez type.
What would you have asked Mike Jarvis or Bobby Gonzalez during the interview to determine that they weren't the type you were looking for.
Before they were hired by SJU or St. John's respectively, they had shown the same level of success and potential that Brad Brownell and Keno Davis show today.
So if we had used Harvey Wallbanger's "diamond tipped drill bit" to dig deep into Keno Davis or Brad Brownell, what questions would you have asked, and what answers would have assured you, that neither guy is like Jarvis or Gonzalez?
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How about the Groce, the associate head coach from Ohio State? He has helped recruit much better classes than Williams, is more familiar with the Midwest and has far more experience at high D1 than Williams. Did he not warrant an interview? He's much more qualified than Buzz Williams, that's for sure. Do you not think he'd take more than $1 million annually to coach Marquette?
Or how about Mark Montgomery from Michigan State, if you want to stick with MSU assistants.
That's just two guys who would be more understandable than an assistant we grabbed because Crean had trouble filling out his staff last year. Then again, it's not my job to find qualifed candidates. But I do know an unqualified candidate when I see one.
Why do you guys not admit we were too lazy to look around? It's so obvious it's not even funny. Marquette fans shouldn't be apprehensive, we should be legitimately angry.
It's like somebody let Cottingham take their brand new Cadillac for a drive and he brought it back with a smashed windshield, one headlight, no taillights, an empty gas tank and a couple of discarded condoms in the backseat.
Wow. So let me get this straight...Ohio State assistant John Groce and Michigan State assistant Mark Montgomery are both better options to be Marquette's head coach than Buzz Williams?
Those guys are both perfectly qualified to lead this program, but Buzz isn't? You're making yourself look plain silly.
Now, that's not to say Groce won't be a good head coach in time. I believe he will be. But what makes him any more qualified than Buzz?
I laugh when people start criticizing Buzz's recruiting during arguments. People must really dislike the hire if they are questioning that aspect of him as well. He's got a track record at various stops in this department. Did Groce have to land top classes at Colorado State or Texas A&M (following a winless Big 12 campaign?). Does Groce have experience recruiting as a head coach? No.
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What would you have asked Mike Jarvis or Bobby Gonzalez during the interview to determine that they weren't the type you were looking for.
Before they were hired by SJU or St. John's respectively, they had shown the same level of success and potential that Brad Brownell and Keno Davis show today.
So if we had used Harvey Wallbanger's "diamond tipped drill bit" to dig deep into Keno Davis or Brad Brownell, what questions would you have asked, and what answers would have assured you, that neither guy is like Jarvis or Gonzalez?
Actually I disagree with assertion. Jarvis, first of all, I wouldn't have touched because he already had a shady reputation to begin with and that ultimately bit him in the butt at St. John's.
Here are the differences as I see them. Keno and Brownwell....zero losing seasons...EVER. Both have ALWAYS finished in the top 3 in their conference all but 1 season.
Brownwell conference coach of the year in two different conferences. NCAAs in two different schools.
Davis national coach of the year, etc.
Not a hint of impropriety by either one of them.
That cannot be said of Jarvis, so my interview wouldn't even have taken place with him.
For Gonzo, I'd ask why the dismal showing in 2005. Why the two losing seasons to start the career. What has coaching in the 22nd rated conference in the country (some years worse during his tenure, some better) to prepare you night in and night out? (I find the Missouri Valley, Colonial Athletic Association and Horizon to be much better leagues...MUCH BETTER). I'd also ask why the antics and perception that he was a jerk (which has totally proven to be the case at Seton Hall) and why that internal belief by many ADs kept him at Manhattan years after he tried to escape (because the ADs knew).
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Actually I disagree with assertion. Jarvis, first of all, I wouldn't have touched because he already had a shady reputation to begin with and that ultimately bit him in the butt at St. John's.
Here are the differences as I see them. Keno and Brownwell....zero losing seasons...EVER. Both have ALWAYS finished in the top 3 in their conference all but 1 season.
I mean, come on. Really?
Keno has ONE season as a head coach. That's your sample size?
Of course, by these standards, you may not have considered Bill Self, Coach K, Al McGuire, Bob Knight and many, many others. All had losing seasons early in their careers. And, to the best of my knowledge, none of them coached at a school ravaged by hurricane.
And I think I've already shown that winning national coach of the year doesn't mean much in terms of future success. Past winners include Randy Ayers, Cliff Ellis, Clem Haskins, Larry Eustacy and Kelvin Sampson.
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I mean, come on. Really?
Keno has ONE season as a head coach. That's your sample size?
Of course, by these standards, you may not have considered Bill Self, Coach K, Al McGuire, Bob Knight and many, many others. All had losing seasons early in their careers. And, to the best of my knowledge, none of them coached at a school ravaged by hurricane.
And I think I've already shown that winning national coach of the year doesn't mean much in terms of future success. Past winners include Randy Ayers, Cliff Ellis, Clem Haskins, Larry Eustacy and Kelvin Sampson.
Kelvin Sampson, Larry Eustacy, Clem Haskins, and Randy Ayers all did very well in W's and L's, it was personal failings that took them down. Cliff Ellis, not sure why you brought him up....he's at the tail end of his career but the guy has won over 500 games, an ACC title, SEC title, Sunbelt, etc, etc. Is he a "great coach"...no, but one that has had a distinguished career. ACC coach of the year twice, SEC coach of the year twice. He was coaching at Clemson and Auburn...two football schools in conferences where the football schools tend to be up and down compared to the Dukes, Wake Forests, North Carolinas, Kentuckys, Vanderbilts, etc.
We could play this game all day if you'd like...plenty of national coach of the years that did terrific as well that came from smaller schools. Bo Ryan won it this year. Ben Howland won it last year. Tubby Smith a few years ago (was at Tulsa at one point) Coach K, Coach Knight, Etc, etc. I'll bet far more national coach of the years have been successful then not, especially when you pull out the "unsuccessful" ones that failed due to their own ethical problems and not on their X's and O's. I guess I don't view a National Coach of the Year award as something to be dismissed as inconsequential. I'd rather have a guy be a head coach at the mid level, cut his teeth, prove to be a winner and then move him up. That's my preference, it's not yours...that's fine. We can both find examples supporting our positions.
Yes, Keno has only one year....but it was a damn good year wasn't it....better than some others in their one year. ;) He took a near .500 team and improved them dramatically. He also has many many years as an assistant attached to very good coaches...his dad, Bruce Pearl, etc.
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I guess I don't view a National Coach of the Year award as something to be dismissed as inconsequential.
I haven't said it's inconsequential. But you've brought it repeatedly as some sort of evidence that Keno Davis is a great hire/will do well at Providence. So I'm merely pointing out - with numerous examples - that winning a coach of the year award by no means portends future success. All it means is Keno Davis had a great 2007-08 at Drake. And he did. It doesn't mean that success will translate at Providence. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't.
Yes, Keno has only one year....but it was a damn good year wasn't it....better than some others in their one year. ;)
You really believe Davis' situation at Drake last year and Buzz's situation at UNO were remotely comparable?