Oso planning to go pro
I don't think anyone has said 'you have no right to criticize the internal inconsistencies of the storytelling.' Rather, I'm saying it's nitpicking and inconsistent to eagerly accept some fantastical elements of a story while railing other minor details over their supposed lack of realism.But setting aside the argument over what is and isn't acceptable suspension of disbelief in a fantasy story, some of the plot elements being called unrealistic/incredible simply are not.As pointed out above, it's not unrealistic in the GoT universe to deploy ravens to get a message to Daenerys from beyond the wall within an acceptable 48-hour (roughly) time frame. It's not unrealistic that the White Walkers would possess and be capable of using a magical spear that could take down a dragon. They're magical beings that have been around for 12,000 years and been plotting an attack for millennia. Certainly they're aware of dragons' place in the world and would have prepared for them. It's entirely within the narrative that the wights follow the commands of the White Walkers, and that would include commands to drag a dragon out of a frozen lake with chains (though it is fair to question where the chains came from ... Hardhome, perhaps?).so, even setting aside a debate over suspension of disbelief, some of the complaints when scrutinized just don't hold up.
Game of Thrones has also been a fantasy show, but not reallllly. It was more of a show about the complex web of politics and relationships within Westeros. Things like magic and the supernatural were occasionally sprinkled in to spice it up, but there were stretches, sometimes weeks long, where Game of Thrones could have just as easily been set in 1400’s Scotland as it could have been in Westeros if the names were less bizarre and people less attractive.Now, Game of Thrones is a full-blown fantasy show. Dragons, White Walkers, Bran Stark, concepts like predestination, God, magic, they’re all going to not just be elements in the show. They’re going to be the driving force. The emphasis on the realism/fantasy blend has completely flipped. If you’re someone who grew up loving Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Chronicles of Narnia, The Eragon series or any other fantasy novel, this is all going to be very familiar and welcome to you. But for the people who have been justifying their Game of Thrones fandam with “Yeah it’s about ice zombies and dragons but NOT REALLY, it isn’t like all that other nerd crap” you might find yourself not liking the show as much. I don’t know how much of the Game of Thrones audience is going to lose a little bit of interest in the show now that’s fantasy instead of historical fiction about a world which doesn’t exist (there’s a subtle difference). Certainly not enough to make anyone stop watching, especially with only a season left. But the reaction of the American pop culture audience being forced to embrace nerd-wet-dream straight-cut unfiltered fantasy is going to be fascinating.
Here's a good reflection on my POV following the last episode:http://www.barstoolsports.com/newyork/game-of-thrones-episode-6-recap-daenerys-ex-machina
Thanks for sharing. One small part that did bug me about the episode is Benjen could have got on the horse with Jon instead of sacrificing himself.
What's the airspeed velocity of an unladen raven?Seriously, though, why are you willing to believe in a fantasy world with dragons and zombies and smoke monsters, etc., but not one in which a raven isn't entirely limited to its physical nature in this (our) world? Maybe Westeros ravens are really, really fast.This all reeks off as unnecessary nitpicking.Anyhow ... here's a solid argument for why it's all possible:When the new episode drops tomorrow, I'm anticipating that there's gonna be a fair bit of bitching and moaning about how quickly Gendry relayed the Just Ice League's message to Dany. Like a lot of people in this sub, I think that too many showwatchers have a pretty fragile ability to suspend disbelief, but I thought I'd offer a semi-plausible rationalization anyway: The whole concept of messenger ravens is fantastical. To my knowledge, the only widespread "avian messenger systems" used homing pigeons because of their unique ability to navigate with the Earth's magnetic field. Ravens are smart birds, but they're nonmigratory. The sheer size of the maesters' raven network is also preposterously large and complex for a medieval society. In other words, we're already far beyond the realm of realism before anything involving this specific message. On this map it appears that the distance from Eastwatch to Dragonstone is 1800-2000 miles, about the same distance as Seattle to Chicago. From my 5 minutes of internet research, it seems like this scale is based entirely on a single description of the Wall as being 100 leagues long, and one statement from GRRM that 1 league = 3 miles. GRRM has mentioned that he regrets making the Wall so large, so I'm gonna call this an exaggeration and cut all the distances in half (also because my math doesn't work otherwise). The Wikipedia article on homing pigeons claims that the top speed of a pigeon over short distances is 90 mph and 50 mph for moderate distances. 900-1000 miles is pushing the limits of how far pigeons can travel (certainly over one day) but idgaf because this world already has dragons and ice zombies, so we're gonna make this hypothetical messenger bird a super raven that can cruise at 90 mph forever. I can't find the post, but yesterday someone noted that one of the first landscape shots in the episode is at the same location that Jon & Co. lay the ambush to capture a wight. It's obviously just a filming shortcut because HBO doesn't have infinite money to scout locations in the Icelandic wilderness (but some kneelers are probably calling it a unnatural carnal knowledge-up that breaks their immersion). For our purposes, it's very convenient to presume that they were walking in circles on the zombie hunt, and so we'll say that Gendry only had to run 26.2 miles back to the Wall. The fastest marathon time is about 2 hours, but we'll cut Gendry some slack since he was wearing some pretty bulky clothes and say it took him 3 hours.What can we conclude from all this ironclad evidence?Gendry's marathon: 3 hoursSuper raven's 900-mile flight to Dragonstone: 10 hoursDany getting her crap together/arguing with Tyrion: 1 hourDragon-flight back to zombie island: 10 hoursTherefore, if you squint your eyes (and remember that we're talking about a sword-and-sorcery TV show and not a Ken Burns documentary), the whole sequence took 24 hours. This comports with the Just Ice League's overnight standoff with the Army of the Dead.Even if you take away some of this person's favorable assumptions, it can still realistically be accomplished in some 48 hours or so, which fits fine with the narrative (and nothing close to a full week).
TAMUI do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.
And questioning the spear-throwing capabilities of a 12,000-year-old zombie king with magical powers.Like, him being created by magical children wielding a magical dagger and then surviving many millennia in the wilderness while turning the dead into a zombie army is totally acceptable, but NO WAY could he be skilled at throwing a magical spear. That's just not credible.
I don't think you or the reddit user who wrote that article understand. First the reddit user is wrong on ravens not being able to navigate the earth magnetic field, they certainly can. Even there, the book references them as Crows, which are migratory birds. Regardless they can measure the Earth's magnetic field. None of that is particularly important, though, as this is a fantasy world. Within that fantasy world there are rules etc. Part of that is throughout the books and the show, sending message by Crows/Ravens is slow, as Westeros (Dorne-Wall) is ~3000 miles across (according to GRRM himself). So from a story telling standpoint, the situation was poorly scripted and designed. Your rationale of "this is a fantasy world with dragons and zombies" means nothing. According to that argument, they could just script in a machine gun that shoots dragon glass bullets in the next episode and mow everything down. That would be idiotic and a ridiculous over-use of deus ex machina. It is completely inconsistent with the rules and situations of the actual world that was created. This episode was pure fan-service. Poorly scripted dialogue that makes certain fan groups happy. Poor story line that was overly predictive and unrealistic in GRRM's world. And a gross overuse of deus ex machina. From a visuals standpoint, the episode was cool. From an actual scripting/directing standpoint, probably one of the poorest episodes I've seen. They are actually discussing it in film class on my campus as things to avoid doing...that doesn't mean it doesn't make fans happy, but it is a lowpoint development wise for GOT...where they normally excel.
A class of film students didn't care for it? Check and mate.
Also, I wholeheartedly disagree on the ravens. Frankly, there is nothing in GRRM cannon or real-life science/biology to suggest what occurred time wise in the last episode.
Regarding deus ex machina. The last episode was fraught with it: Dany magically showing up just in time, in unnatural time frames, at the exact right place (note, Gendry didn't know where they were and there was a massive snowstorm...Dany and the dragons have never been north). Benjen showing up at precisely the right time. Magic dragon killing spears. Massive chains that would take the army years to build, or even transport immediately available. Not to mention they would have to swim down to wrap the chains around the dragon, and it has been well documented in canon that the wights cannot swim...cannot survive entering water...and on and on.
Wow, thanks for sucking all the fun out of this, guys!
One small part that did bug me about the episode is Benjen could have got on the horse with Jon instead of sacrificing himself.
I have contented myself with the belief that the standoff was a couple of days and this was actually a trap by the Night King to get himself a dragon. We already know he has some magical ability of foresight given his ability to "see" Bran when he is spying. So if he knew the dragons would come to rescue John it would make sense that he would wait them out.
The writing this season is sub par, and the entire story is rushed. You don't have to like this season just because its GOT. You could literally drive a mac truck through some of these plot holes.The entire IDEA behind GRRM's series to subvert fantasy tropes, yet this entire season is wrought with them.
I think this article does a pretty good job summarizing the plot issues. Primarily, that the whole "catch an individual wight" is a ridiculously stupid hare-brained scheme with no logical reason to attempt or think will succeed for a myriad of reasons. (Wights tend to hang out in groups of thousands, Cersei already has her own giant zombie and is not interested at all in problems outside her own walls so why would she care if you brought her one. So besides the difficulty of the task, it is necessarily going to fail anyway and Tyrion, if he's 10% as smaert as he is supposed to be, would know that for sure)https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/game-thrones-eastwatch/#!On one other note, I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, but I thought the Lannisters were planning to pay back the bank with the money taken from the Tyrells. I assumed the dragon destroyed the wagon with the gold when Dany attacked the returning army. Do they still have the money to pay back the bank?
Tarly told Jamie all the gold was safely behind the walls of King's Landing.
Right, and that is really the problem.Did Sansa forget who Littlefinger is and what he does ALL THE TIME? Catch a wight is a stupid plot on its face. Why not just find a criminal and execute him... toss him in a cell and wait for him to turn? Why doesn't Drogon turn his head and nuke the Night's King with Dragonfire after he sees Viserion get hit... better yet, why do none of the dragons nuke the Night's King?
Littlefinger has been an advisor to Sansa. She does not see all of the devious stuff that we do while watching.This isn't The Walking Dead - everyone who dies does not "turn".I, too wondered why the dragons didn't nuke him.
No, Sansa has been showing LF that she is wise to the game. She has been trained for it every season, and for her to become so apparently stupid to his machinations this season is against her character development.
No, not everyone turns, but most people around the wall and North of it do turn. The wights that attack Jeor Mormont back in S1 turned while in Castle Black. It would follow logic that the army of the dead wants as many wights as possible.