The tragedy of Tom Crean...

[silverback]

The one factor that keeps Tom Crean-coached MU teams from being an annual Top 10 fixture is his total inability to recruit quality big men.  In his nearly half a decade as coach, he brought in ONE legit center for ONE year and ended up in the Final Four.  Otherwise, his teams are NCAA quick exit specialists.  I look for the same this year.

And, no -- Barro doesn't count.  He's a power forward forced to play center.

[michiganmufan]

Harongody is a good player if he understands that what he did yesterday shouldering the post defender out of the way would be an offensive foul by most officiating crews.  Otherwise he may be half-way through his sophomore year wondering why the "refs don't like me" until he figures it out.

[CTWarrior]

Merritt and Jackson are the only legit low box scorers Crean has brought into the program.  The thing is, 6-9 bulls with some basketball skills are not that hard to find.  I'm not talking about Jeff Green or that quality, but just a big guy who can grab a tough rebound in traffic and body up the opposition's big guy and make a put back or an eight footer.  Most teams have a couple and we never seem to have any.

[MilTown]

We need bigs! After we signed Wes, DJ, and Jerel, Crean knew had 3 positions soldified, for roughly 3 years. At the time we had the PF position locked up with Amo and losing him hurt. Add a servicable big man to the mix, and you are looking at a formidable team for 2-3 years. Instead, they went with a "project" in Barro. I'm not sure what role Kinsella was supposed to play, but no matter what, he just doesn't have it. On defense, it is obvious that we need a physical big in the BE. On offense, the entry pass into the post is non existent. I'm not looking necessarily for post up scoring. Other things can happen from the post. Pass to a cutter, kick out for a jumper, fouls, etc. It just keeps the D honest. I think we really need to look hard at JUCO transfers. If a JUCO transfer doesn't work out, we are only stuck with them for 2 years in most cases.

[CTWarrior]

I don't like JUCO big men.  If a big guy was any kind of basketball player,  he wouldn't be in a JUCO in the first place.  You may find a guy like Marcus Jackson, who is a serviceable 5-10 minute a game guy on a good team, but that's about it.

[Pardner]

Lack of bigs is MU's fatal flaw.  Opponents muscle down on our guards and wear them out, resulting in poor shot selection/%, foul trouble on the other end as guards are asked to do too much on D, and too many t/o's as they cannot find any inside passing options and either rush the offense, force the shot or wait too long waiting for the guards to circle free.  There are no primary set plays inside ever as Barro is only skilled as a secondary option on a guard drive or off a rebound.  

Worse, there is no spot up option this year with Novak gone to offset the lack of inside depth.  If we had "good" Ammo, we are a top 10 team.   Stemler was Crean's back up recruit, and he would have been a big plus for this team.  He made a mistake going to IU, IMHO, as Sampson has him setting picks for their guards at the top of the key, and leaving him out of position as a spot up shooter (his strength).  He is just a mess there right now, and I think MU would have been the best fit for him.

Although, it would slow MU's frenetic offense, why doesn't Crean try a twin tower set for parts of the game with Kinsella and Barro?  Posting Kinsella once in a while at least gives teams like ND different looks, and creates better shot selection and spacing for our guards or Lazar to spot up.  As it is, Kinsella spells Barro for a few minutes in the same sets and just gets in the way.  At least try to establish or claim a post position once in a while which will stretch the defense as Phil Jackson does with the Triangle.   MU lives and dies with the guards--we are in every game, but we are as likely to lose in the first round as we are to make a run if our guards get hot.  Fun but frustrating....but Crean is apparently a backcourt coach and recruiter.

[77ncaachamps]

What hurts Crean's recruiting of the bigs is his emphasis on a guard game.

Stemler doesn't count as a big because he's more like a Novak: tall shooter who rarely plays inside.

Other than Bryce Webster, I can think of a couple others who Crean couldn't reel into MU:
- Keaton Nankivil
- DeJuan Blair
- George Goode
- Marcus Landry
- Thijin Moses
- JaJuan Johnson

[bma725]

If Stemler isn't a big, then Moses isn't either.  He's an athletic small forward, built like Blackledge and plays a slashers game not a post game.

[Pardner]

I agree, 77, about Crean's recruiting approach ...Crean follows Izzo's system...stresses guards, their role in the weave offense, who look for the break, hope a few big bodies are left to recruit (like Grimm).  During MSU's best years, they had some depth and talent in the front court, but it was also a weakness in the "Izzo down years" (if there is such a thing).  What you get is consistency in the program...and collgee b-ball is about the guards.  But, we have no "big" depth or athleticism...which puts a big burden and strain on our guards (like Diener).  For both coaches (and many others), it is more about their system than potential match-ups.

Funny thing about Stemler is they have him playing as a "big" at IU--setting high picks, then rolling to the hoop.  He is asked to rebound and jam the middle on D.  As you point out, he is a spot up shooter.  He really looks lost there in their system, and I believe he would have been more successful here in Crean's if he would have adjusted to the school and program.  By far, even as a shooter, he would be a a key asset as a big body this season for us.  We simply don't have talent in the front court.

[Big Papi]

Based on what everybody wants in a 5 I don't remember to many bigs who could score down low on their own for a long time, even before TC.  Who have we had since Mac and Key graduated?  Robert Jackson, Lovette, anyone else? Sounds like Jon Harris, Abraham, Merritt, Marcus Jackson, Terry Sanders, Barro dont qualify as decent bigs.  Nnamaka and Blankson were more like 3s.

Grimm, Kinsella and Amo all had promise but unfortunately they did not get better.  I am a bit concerned that are tallest player the year after Barro graduates will be Burke but I expect him to continue to improve.

[Murffieus]

Burke CAN postup----but you'd never know it because postup isn't part of the offense! I saw him at the Katrina scrimmage a year ago-------and i was amazed how far along he was with his moves and finish with his back to the hoop-----but in two years he has yet to get the ball in that position to show it off in a game!

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Based on what everybody wants in a 5 I don't remember to many bigs who could score down low on their own for a long time, even before TC.  Who have we had since Mac and Key graduated?  Robert Jackson, Lovette, anyone else? Sounds like Jon Harris, Abraham, Merritt, Marcus Jackson, Terry Sanders, Barro dont qualify as decent bigs.  Nnamaka and Blankson were more like 3s.

Grimm, Kinsella and Amo all had promise but unfortunately they did not get better.  I am a bit concerned that are tallest player the year after Barro graduates will be Burke but I expect him to continue to improve.

Key was a quality post player...McIlvaine was not. He was a lot like Barro -- bad hands and no offensive moves. He was a great shot blocker, though.

Trevor Powell could play in the post.

[RawdogDX]

BLA BLA, yes it would be great to have better bigs but crean has had a hard time getting all star centers despite being able to pick up great guards.  WHY?  ... It's so painfully obvious...
Because he has gotten wade and deiner into the nba.  Wouldn't you want to play for a coach who got a slow white kid into the nba?  Yeah me to.
So when is he going to be able to start getting better bigs?  hmm... perhaps after barro goes for 15 and 10 next year, is 2nd team all big east, and gets drafted.  Untill then there he's not going to get centers of the calibur you are talking about.  so we'll have to live with being a top 20 team instead of a top 5 team till then.   wow what agony.

[augoman]

this re-hash of big-men thread from weeks ago is both amusing and interesting.  now, how do we get some size in the lane?

[BigSky]

Gotta love realistic expectations.  The original poster here said "annual top 10 fixture."  Thinking I misread it, I read it again.  Wow, what a wonderful state of MU hoops when the thread is about MU being a top ten fixture.  Great stuff. 

[maxpower773]

Gotta love realistic expectations.  The original poster here said "annual top 10 fixture."  Thinking I misread it, I read it again.  Wow, what a wonderful state of MU hoops when the thread is about MU being a top ten fixture.  Great stuff. 

Great point. I really think people need to stop having these horribly high expectations for Marquette as of right now. We'll get up there eventually with 3 good classes and a chance for another with Williams.  I think last year went to people's heads with our overachieving, nobody expected that, but now that it happend and after a good season so far people expect more.  Be a bit more patient, we'll get there, you can't become a annual top 10 team overnight.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Based on what everybody wants in a 5 I don't remember to many bigs who could score down low on their own for a long time, even before TC.  Who have we had since Mac and Key graduated?  Robert Jackson, Lovette, anyone else? Sounds like Jon Harris, Abraham, Merritt, Marcus Jackson, Terry Sanders, Barro dont qualify as decent bigs.  Nnamaka and Blankson were more like 3s.

Grimm, Kinsella and Amo all had promise but unfortunately they did not get better.  I am a bit concerned that are tallest player the year after Barro graduates will be Burke but I expect him to continue to improve.

Key was a quality post player...McIlvaine was not. He was a lot like Barro -- bad hands and no offensive moves. He was a great shot blocker, though.

Trevor Powell could play in the post.

Yes, Powell could....of course we struggled with our point guards then and had some of our worst years ever at MU with Powell down low.