Marquette embarrassed themselves today

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Both in their play and their behavior. The tone was set early in the game by Crean's complete over-reaction to a harmless shove -- the type of contact that happens 15 times a game.

There was more, but I won't go into it.

Just awful.

[CTWarrior]

Seemed like they took some serious caffiene pills out of the gate.  They were really wired.  I agree that the behavior was very poor.

[MUCam]

I think that is a little bit of a harsh over-reaction on your won part, wouldn't you say? Or is it possible that sometimes emotions make us say or do (or type) things that might be a little over-the-top in retrospect?

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I am not over-reacting in the least. Crean made a fool out of himself early in the game (check out Sichting's facial expression when trying to calm Crean down) and the team fed off of it. I've never seen a Marquette team behave worse during the course of a game. I'm not even that upset about the loss -- although we could have won that game -- it's the way we represented ourselves that irks me. And that is on Crean, no matter what you think. ND did nothing but play hard. We did nothing but cry foul and complain.

[ilovefreeway]

I agree with the statement that Crean over re-acted, but other then that I can't see what you are talking about.

The shove into the baseline looked pretty bad at full speed, also that guy stood over him like he was proud if it.  DJ got in his face, good.

As for Fritz, he got shoved and shoved back.  So what?  

As for the play, why do you think every loss is soooooooo bad?  We got beat at ND.  That has happened to every team who has played there this year.  

[TJ]

Both in their play and their behavior. The tone was set early in the game by Crean's complete over-reaction to a harmless shove -- the type of contact that happens 15 times a game.

There was more, but I won't go into it.

Just awful.

He shoved McNeal away, put his hands up as if to say "I'm innocent," and then smiled about it as he walked away (which Crean couldn't see, but the TV camera caught very well).  Crean may have overreacted some, but there was definitely something to react to on that play.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I agree with the statement that Crean over re-acted, but other then that I can't see what you are talking about.

The shove into the baseline looked pretty bad at full speed, also that guy stood over him like he was proud if it.  DJ got in his face, good.

As for Fritz, he got shoved and shoved back.  So what?  

As for the play, why do you think every loss is soooooooo bad?  We got beat at ND.  That has happened to every team who has played there this year.  

Baloney! He was going to check on him until the ref jumped in and Marquette's bench freaked out.

[CWSKeith]

Baloney! He was going to check on him until the ref jumped in and Marquette's bench freaked out.

Heh.  Check on him.  I guess we have differing views on what happened...  Checking on him would imply going over to McNeal and bending over, sort of asking him if he's okay.  That's not what the ND player did.  He seemed quite satisfied with what had happened...

[CTWarrior]

I agree with the statement that Crean over re-acted, but other then that I can't see what you are talking about.

The shove into the baseline looked pretty bad at full speed, also that guy stood over him like he was proud if it.  DJ got in his face, good.

As for Fritz, he got shoved and shoved back.  So what?  

1.  Agree that Crean over-reacted.
2.  Agree that Harangody looked like he was barking at McNeal after knocking him into the stanchion, which is totally uncalled for.  His block attempt was clumsy but not malicious, IMO.  I suppose I do not have an issue with James getting in his face if it was because of the barking, though I am not sure that is why James did what he did.
3.  Fitz's push was eentirely uncalled for and indefensible, but was out of frustration.  It happens.

It just seemed we were really wired in a weird way for this game.  Don't know how to explain it.  But we came out hyped up and were fouling like crazy after the nice start.

[LastWarrior]

Both in their play and their behavior. The tone was set early in the game by Crean's complete over-reaction to a harmless shove -- the type of contact that happens 15 times a game.

There was more, but I won't go into it.

Just awful.

AMEN!!

[lab_warrior]

ND were a bunch of classless pieces of crap.  That reject, Carter, shoved McNeal.  Falls was shoving people left and right, ala Reggie Miller, to get open the whole game.  And Harangody--a fatter, uglier, piece of trash, I have yet to see this season.
Can't wait to play them in the BE tournament, where they don't get the home referees calling a foul every trip down the floor.  

[ilovefreeway]

"Baloney! He was going to check on him until the ref jumped in and Marquette's bench freaked out."

I assume you're talking about the JM shove, so I'll comment like you are.  

How the hell do you know what he was thinking or what his intensions are?  It looked to me like he was not being the best of sportman, and the bench reacted.  Now, what do you want the team to do?  Should they let someone shove a teammate and admire their work without a reaction, or should they first ask "excuse me sir, are you going to help him up or are you being as ass?  I just want to make sure so I can react in the most appropriate manner in the course of this emotionally charged game."  

I'll take a team that gets in the guys face.  Now if DJ clocked him, he'd be talking about a whole different thing, but letting the other guys know that you will not just take hard fouls is a good thing.

[Tom Crean's Tanning Bed]

Don't also forget Tory Jackson deciding to dribble the ball down for a layup with 7 seconds left instead of running out the clock in a 9 point game before getting fouled by Fitzgerald, and then putting the layup in off his free throw miss as time expring to pad his stats/score.  That type of crap was inexcusable.

The Fitzgerald push was not the best idea, but if you watch the replay, Harangody BENT at the knees and jumped forward to fall when Fitz pushed him.  Watching Harangody out there was like watching Brock Lesnar in WWE; the guy is just a pure piece of crap.

Let's play these guys on a neutral court in NYC.  I think the result will be quite different.

[augoman]

I have no prob w/ defending a teammate, but the overreaction by Crean surprised me.  I haven't seen him react like that in his 8 years no matter how hard or intentional a foul committed.  In fact, DePaul punched DJ in the crotch during a loose ball scrum and the crowd almost rushed the court, but TC was cool and calm.
Carter is a punk, acted the part today, and was obvious to all who watched nationally,(unless they have green-blinders on).
Unfortunately, I, too, think we embarrassed ourselves today, but it was by blowing a nice lead and coming apart at the end.

[tower912]

I was expecting a thread like this.  From you.   We allowed ourselves to be baited, rose to the bait, fed the crowd's frenzy, which motivated ND.   The domers were classless and we allowed ourselves to get sucked in.    Disappointing.

[AlienWarrior]

Bottom line ,we need stronger inside play ,which will give us easier outside shots . GTown is the class of our league this year and cold easily make the final 4 .so be it .

[Pakuni]

Crean overreacted a bit, but so what? I'll never get too upset about a coach standing up for one of his players, especially when he's standing up against thuggish behavior by an opponent. Bully for Tom I say.

It's funny. For years the anti-Crean crowd has steadfastly defended some of Mike Deane's antics, particularly in the NCAA loss to Providence, as standing up for his players. Yet Tom Crean apparently committed a cardinal sin this afternoon. Go figure.

FWIW, I don't think it was the shove that really set off Crean, but rather when Russell flipped the ball at he and McNeal as he was walking away.

[dennycrane]

Why should the players be expected to maintain their composure if the coach can not?

[Pakuni]

Why should the players be expected to maintain their composure if the coach can not?

Composure had very little, if anything, to do with today's loss. MU lost because Notre Dame played better than they did. It's that simple.

[Tom Crean's Tanning Bed]

Why should the players be expected to maintain their composure if the coach can not?

So let's see if I understand this right...the reason this game was out of hand was because of Crean?  Please.

When Crean had the incident with Carter, it was at the under 16 timeout.  We were up at the time by 8-10, I'm not sure.   5 minutes later, it was a 23-10 MU lead after a Matthews three with about 11 minutes left in the half.  So to say that the team absolutely lost it because of Crean is absurd.  
  
The refs lost absolute control of this game, and ND could basically do with impunity whatever they felt like doing to MU physically.  I really hope the Big East league office has a look at this game; this game was out of hand from about the midway through the first half through the second half.  Granted, yes, it was physical up to that point, with MU on the floor diving for loose balls, etc. and winning those battles.  But the officials made a drastic change in how they were going to call the game, and clearly decided to call the game one way.

[Whereisal]

Crean embarassed Marquette today.

Can anyone say bubble?

Nice example coach.  As in many past years, the team is burning out at the end of the season.

Wasn't Blackledge going to be the big that we so need?

[patso]

Fitz played without confidence again and made passes after making it look like his best option was to shoot. Cubillan did not get enough shots. The Notre Dame meathead shoved Barro around too much. James needs to stop forcing.Matthews needs to look for more shots.Need to post up Barro and have him throw the ball back out to open guard Barro needs to make all shots within two feet of basket.
The refs also were terrible as the Notre Dame team was pushing holding etc. the whole game.They called fouls on Marquette in the second half where the transgression was clearly committed by ND. It's a good thing there were no serious injuries in the game. let's beat Pitt and move on.

[AlumKCof93]

I disagree with most who say MU embarrassed themselves today as I thought the players behaved themselves.  Fitz push was no harder than what Carter did to McNeal.  Harongody either was off balance or was just acting.  Either way, he had it coming as he was pushing the entire game.
What I do have an issue with is Crean.  I've never seen him act like that and am shocked he didn't get a T.  Why did he so overreact?  We were up big and had the game in control.  We were already wired so it wasn't to get his team going at all - if anything, I think it fired up ND.  I think he just blew a gasket and it cost the team.

[Murffieus]

Wen a coach acts like TC did----one of two things will happen----either it really fires his team up----or it distracts them from the science of the game. Since we were already "fired up" it did the latter. It was all downhill after that!

IMO, too much emphasis on the mental part of the game----and not enough on the execution part of it !

[mviale]

I love it - the MU-ND rivalry is back!

[NavinRJohnson]

So if we win next week, will we get the 5 seed so we can play them again (assuming we win our first)?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Both in their play and their behavior. The tone was set early in the game by Crean's complete over-reaction to a harmless shove -- the type of contact that happens 15 times a game.

There was more, but I won't go into it.

Just awful.

Oh please...Al McGuire would have done the same thing.  He defended his players like any coach should have.  Good grief.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Crean embarassed Marquette today.

Can anyone say bubble?

Nice example coach.  As in many past years, the team is burning out at the end of the season.

Wasn't Blackledge going to be the big that we so need?

Shocking, 2nd post and this crap comes out.  Bubble...please.

The worst we can finish in our last 10 is 4-6
22 wins at worse
Top 35 schedule in the country

We have wins over these NCAA teams

@ Louisville
@ Pitt
Duke on neutral court


We have wins over these NCAA Bubble Teams

Texas Tech
West Virginia
Villanova
Providence

RPI in the top 35

We are a lock, get over it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I really wonder sometimes what some people are seeing when they respond the way they do.

Notre Dame has won 18 home games in a row and are heading to the NCAA tournament.  You read some of the crap on this board and you would think we lost to UWM or something at home.

When we lost at Georgetown, same crap.  G'Town has won 11 in a row right now and may be one of the top 5 teams in the country at this point.

It's the Big East folks, every game is going to be tough...road games especially.  We're 9-6 and have a shot to sweep Pitt this Saturday.  We've won 22 games....take a breath.

And the comments that you've never seen a MU team act like this before...how long have some of you been watching MU...2 years?   Anyone remember the MU vs Northwestern game in the 1980's?  Anyone remember Ryan Amoroso on the free throw line against Louisville.  Anyone remember Al McGuire sticking up for his guys and picking up more than his share of technical fouls?  Come on people.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Chicos -- people do remember those games and individual performances (Amo vs. Louis.) and were embarrassed by them.

But if you think McGuire would have gone ape over a harmless shove, you're nuts. That was a ridiculous reaction by Crean. I have a hard time believing how anybody watching the game could think otherwise.

[MUCam]

So what if he over-reacted? Is it truly that embarrasing? Or is it just another feather in your "anti-crean" cap? Take a step back and answer that question in all honesty. I think you'll find that in the big picture, that "over-reaction" by Crean may not have been as big a deal as you make it out to be.

P.S. And while you are touting the moral high horse flag, there are indications that after McNeal fell to the floor, ND fans pelted him with a water bottle. This is corroborated by the fact that the announcer at the game told ND fans to not throw items at the players or on the court immediately after the mix-up. Would it be overreacting to become hysterical about one of your players being hit with a water bottle? Perhaps, before you overreact and jump to conclusions, you should get ALL the facts.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Funny that Crean mentioned nothing of the sort. He mentioned only the nudge.

I point out Crean's meltdown because if affected the way MU played. To that point, we were playing well. In fact, we may have been up by about 10 at that point. After that, it was downhill as we lost all composure.

If you are proud of the way Marquette handled itself today, good for you.

[MUCam]

"I point out Crean's meltdown because if affected the way MU played. To that point, we were playing well. In fact, we may have been up by about 10 at that point. After that, it was downhill as we lost all composure."

- To an extent, I don't disagree with this. But, what about that is embarrassing? Was his conduct embarrassing, or was it just not good for the momentum in the game? Which one is it? If we are sticking to whether the conduct was shameful and embarrassing, then what relevance is there to how it affected the game? Would it make it less shameful and embarrassing if we would have blown ND out?

Let's stick to crux of your initial post, shall we?

[bma725]

I point out Crean's meltdown because if affected the way MU played. To that point, we were playing well. In fact, we may have been up by about 10 at that point. After that, it was downhill as we lost all composure.

Once again you miss the fact that it didn't change the way the team played, they in fact played better immediately after it happened.  MU was up 9 before Crean's outburst.  For the next 6 minutes of game time, MU's lead was never lower than that, and they in fact extended at one point to 13. 

The game didn't go downhill until later, when ND started making the shots they had previously been missing, not because MU suddenely losing composure.

[77fan88warrior]

I was at the game and Harangody was not going to help McNeal up. He turned around to talk smack. The officials had no control over the game and we should be happy no one got hurt. The 2nd foul on Barro was cheap and it occurred two minutes into the game. That hurt us huge. When was the last time you saw 2 stoppages in play not related to the clock, foul, or injury? It was ridiculous that there was no call related the Crean- bench episode. Call a double t or something.Go ahead and bitch at Crean for the DJ stand around and dribble offense that we saw for the 25 minutes of the game. Have you ever seen a stoppage in play because players on a bench are standing up? The officiating in Conference USA was better than what I have seen the last couple of weeks.That includes the ridiculous calls in our favor against Villanova. I don't know how you can blame DJ or Fitz for what they did. ND was trying to push us around and they weren't willing to take it. I think this team comes back stronger than if they laid down for some of the crap Notre Dame was pulling.

[TallTitan34]

Crean embarassed no one.

[nathanziarek]

Yeah, ridiculous to think that a coach standing up for a player is embarrassing himself.

The game was physical and the refs had no control. The big freshman did nothing but drop his shoulder and charge in all game. I saw more childish shoves during this game than I've ever seen at a college game. How many times were there clear fouls that didn't get whistled until well after it occurred?

Marquette was frustrated this game because we simply couldn't match the physicality of ND and the refs were allowing it (while calling the ticky-tack fouls -- remember the days of Cincy and Huggybear?).

No embarrassment. Just a loss that should have been ours. MU was the better team.

[Pardner]

Big East refs = Big 10 refs....they allow low fouls/body checks on and off the ball, always call any appearance of an arm/hand foul on shots or dribbles, let scrums and loose ball scrambles play out, anticpate calls (good for bigs, bad if you have speed players), are widely judgmental on offensive/blocking calls, are inconsistent within a crew and game, and always slant to the home team.  I actually liked that Coach Crean got on them on the road.  I think he should work them more, but maybe in Coach K fashion.  My favorite with this crew yesterday was that they actually stopped play during a MU possession to tell our "bench to sit down".  What?   That warning couldn't have come during a stop in action or by a side official on the way back down court?  It had to happen during a DJ drive to the hoop?  Brutal crew but the Villanova (edge MU) and DePaul (edge DU) crews were just as bad.  MU, with their four guards, will be better off in the NCAA's if they get a mix of Pac 10, ACC or SEC officials where they are used to more quickness, speed or balance.  That said, we should also know what we are going to get on the road in the Big East.  Crean did not make a spectacle...he stood up to a crew who were not giving him calls...remember, that at that time, MU had a big lead most of the half but we had 100% less free throw attempts with our guards driving to the hoop time after time.  Crean should have jumped on them at that time as he knew he needed the free throws on the road after our run ended.

[nathanziarek]

Thanks for that. I've always been at a loss to describe it, but that is the foul situation and why we don't "get" the calls. I hate blaming officiating, and figured it was something more about the structure of the team / coaching. That pretty much sums up what we are seeing and does work against us more than, well, any team with a big

[Big Papi]

Crean embarassed Marquette today.

Can anyone say bubble?

Nice example coach.  As in many past years, the team is burning out at the end of the season.

Wasn't Blackledge going to be the big that we so need?

First of all we didn't burn out last year.  We won four out of our last 5 regular season games so no burn out.

Second, where did anyone say Blackledge was the answer.  He was a very raw athletic kid who really needed a redshirt year this year but we didn't know if we needed the body so he wasn't redshirted.  If he is with the team next year (dependent on if Blackledge and if he improves his grades) he will likely be redshirted next year.  Far from the "big that we so need"

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Funny that Crean mentioned nothing of the sort. He mentioned only the nudge.

I point out Crean's meltdown because if affected the way MU played. To that point, we were playing well. In fact, we may have been up by about 10 at that point. After that, it was downhill as we lost all composure.

If you are proud of the way Marquette handled itself today, good for you.

I guess we will never know what Al would or wouldn't have done because he's not around anymore.

But, I think it's fairly safe to say that there were plenty of people back in Al's day who didn't like his tactics and probably hated him just like people seem to dislike Crean (cough, PRN, cough cough).

I for one like Crean's fire on the bench. This is a road conference game against a rival. He should be fired up and lead the team in such a manner.

I think Al himself said it best (I'm paraphrasing the exact quote):

"When you win, you are eccentic, when you lose, you are nuts."



 

[muwarrior87]

You people are full of crap, there is no way marquette is a bubble team after a loss to a top 25 ranked team on the road. They are still a very strong team and when they're playing against a bunch of goons and classless punks in ND, it is kind of hard not to get fired up. I was at the game and I, for one, didn't see anything that MU did that was embarassing. Also, it's really hard to win when three solid players, two stars, have 3 fouls at half and 14 team fouls after the first half. The officiating was extremely inconsistant and very one sided. This is also the opinion of multiple followers of ND that I know in the South Bend area. They said, "it's not hard to figure out why they're undefeated at home when games end up like that." This is referring to the fact that it was like MU was playing against 8 men on the court.

While the refs did make up the foul disparity somewhat in the second half, it is really hard to rebound as a team when you can't play aggressive defense for fear of getting a cheap touch foul called on you.

Also, I loved to see Crean so passionate about the cheap hits on players that ND was making. This game gives me even more reason to hate ND basketball and their fan section filled with tools...throwing bottles at Jerel after he's clobbered right in front of the student section...that is embarassing, certainly glad I'm not represented by any of those notre dame pricks

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos -- people do remember those games and individual performances (Amo vs. Louis.) and were embarrassed by them.

But if you think McGuire would have gone ape over a harmless shove, you're nuts. That was a ridiculous reaction by Crean. I have a hard time believing how anybody watching the game could think otherwise.

You may want to watch the 1974 NCAA game again and how Al acted and got a technical foul....emotion is emotion and sometimes it gets the best of us.

Al defended his players.  Tom defends his.  That is part of he role of a coach.

[rugbydrummer]

They are still a very strong team and when they're playing against a bunch of goons and classless punks in ND, it is kind of hard not to get fired up. I was at the game and I, for one, didn't see anything that MU did that was embarassing.

Thank you for saying that--I think everyone's just been taking this really hard because we have such high expectations for our team, which, when it is playing good, can beat every team in the nation.  However, I think something our boys struggle with is consistency and I also believe they are still young and developing, so the two are correlated.  Don't get me wrong, they have done fantastic and I have nothing but admiration & support for them. But I think we also suffer from contagious demoralizing mentality syndrome--when the going gets tough, we sometimes fall apart.  It also doesn't help when we have way too many fouls.... ::sigh::. 

That being said, I have a bad taste in my mouth from the last two supposed "Catholic" universities we have played.  I'm not quite sure what ND or DePaul's official view on sportsmanship is because they sure do not have any to begin with, players or fans.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's no credit to you if the way you win is by thugging it up on the court (Harangody & Carter). It's also no credit to "win 18 straight @ home" when the refs are in Brey's back pocket.  Anyone else notice the phantom foul that got called for ND once MU was up about 10-0? Or the fake "blocking/shooting foul" on Ous w/ no hacking/hardly any body contact?

No one likes a bully.  Good for TC for getting in the refs face--if they aren't protecting the players, they aren't doing their job. I don't care if Harangody's foul on Jerel looked worse than it was, Jerel took a faceplant into the stanchion, which would not have happened if not for thugboy.  I've no problem with physical play--ND was reminiscent of times we've played Memphis (who wasn't ANY better)--but at least they kept it to the hardwood and not stupid acting or flippant shoves.

  I hope ND gets complacent and then gets blasted out of the water by whomever they play first @ MSQ when they are without their crooked refs and their rowdy fan base.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Chicos -- people do remember those games and individual performances (Amo vs. Louis.) and were embarrassed by them.

But if you think McGuire would have gone ape over a harmless shove, you're nuts. That was a ridiculous reaction by Crean. I have a hard time believing how anybody watching the game could think otherwise.

You may want to watch the 1974 NCAA game again and how Al acted and got a technical foul....emotion is emotion and sometimes it gets the best of us.

Al defended his players.  Tom defends his.  That is part of he role of a coach.

Thanks for the history lesson -- I am fully aware of the events that transpired in the 1974 Final. What you fail to mention is that Al repeatedly said he was embarrassed by that technical foul and that it may have cost MU the game.

Also, your comparisons of this team to those in 1974 and 1977 are a bit a stretch, don't you think?

[Marquette84]

What I do have an issue with is Crean.  I've never seen him act like that and am shocked he didn't get a T.  Why did he so overreact?  We were up big and had the game in control.  We were already wired so it wasn't to get his team going at all - if anything, I think it fired up ND.  I think he just blew a gasket and it cost the team.

First, recall that Al McGuire embarassed the universtiy and cost his team a game as well.  Stakes were  just a tad bit higher, as well. . . only the National Championship at stake:

“I would say that I lost the game there. I would say that
I gave them two five-point plays and that was it. I had a bad day.”

For all of you who say that Crean "embarassed" MU, please show your consistency by  criticizing Al McGuire for his behavior as well.

Second, I'd like to know for all those who felt this was an overecation to tell us what  was said/done at that moment.  You obviously were on the bench or on the court to know that what transpired didn't deserve the reaction--yet, the only comments seem to be the type only those watching on television could make.  So please, enlighten us on the exact mood from the bench.

Third, please explain why you're so quick to blame Tom rather than giving him the benefit of the doubt.  If this is the most upset he's been in eight years, doesn't that suggest that there just might be more to the story than what you saw on television?  It seems obvious to me that there must have been some serious issue to cause Crean to get so irate--yet here we have OUR fans rushing to judgement, opposing OUR coach.

Fourth, given that there does seem to be something more serious at hand, do you suppose there's a wee possibility that the players might lose some respect for Crean if he HADN'T stood up for his players at that moment?  I'm sure he could have turned Seth Greenberg simply said that today his players were the tree, and someday they'd be the dog.  Or become Bob Dukeit and gone back to ask for help re-rolling his program rather than standing up to the officials.  It's not like Crean ran 10 rows into the stands and earned a first-ever NCAA suspension.

Nope, Crean made it a point to stand up for his players--and that builds respect, even if those who are pre-disposed to dislike him get on their high-horse and moralize about how he "overreacted."