COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I thought this was interesting on how spread is occurring. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/21/opinions/south-korea-dance-class-covid19-outbreak-sepkowitz/index.html

Fox version for those inclined (it’s the same)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/science/one-group-fitness-class-led-to-112-coronavirus-cases-in-south-korean-study-warns-as-societies-reopen.amp

[MU82]

Yet another new poll showing that most Americans don't seem to be thrilled about the notion of re-opening the country ...

https://apnews.com/3562b5a082a27221e532075de509a36c?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=AP&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&fbclid=IwAR1Yb-VlN7D4xt67JrLXhrRIskPfN-lTmAkXmfvR2CqvAwfm4th81qBOCe0

[mu03eng]

Yet another new poll showing that most Americans don't seem to be thrilled about the notion of re-opening the country ...

https://apnews.com/3562b5a082a27221e532075de509a36c?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=AP&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&fbclid=IwAR1Yb-VlN7D4xt67JrLXhrRIskPfN-lTmAkXmfvR2CqvAwfm4th81qBOCe0

I 100% get that people are nervous about opening up and that is absolutely going to be key to the economy restarting is people getting to participate in it but.....

If we don't start reopening, I don't know when do we? Reopening, even in a very controlled manner will come with Increased risk of exposure. It will definitely result in more positive test results, it will very likely result in more hospitalizations and likely will result in more deaths. That all sucks, but unless we are staying closed until a vaccine I don't know how its avoidable. I'm all for mitigation but any opening of any kind has risk.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I 100% get that people are nervous about opening up and that is absolutely going to be key to the economy restarting is people getting to participate in it but.....

If we don't start reopening, I don't know when do we? Reopening, even in a very controlled manner will come with Increased risk of exposure. It will definitely result in more positive test results, it will very likely result in more hospitalizations and likely will result in more deaths. That all sucks, but unless we are staying closed until a vaccine I don't know how its avoidable. I'm all for mitigation but any opening of any kind has risk.

The debate should be how and what.  These polls about things from the past don’t really make a lot of sense nor do they help the general public move on to the next phase of this. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I 100% get that people are nervous about opening up and that is absolutely going to be key to the economy restarting is people getting to participate in it but.....

If we don't start reopening, I don't know when do we? Reopening, even in a very controlled manner will come with Increased risk of exposure. It will definitely result in more positive test results, it will very likely result in more hospitalizations and likely will result in more deaths. That all sucks, but unless we are staying closed until a vaccine I don't know how its avoidable. I'm all for mitigation but any opening of any kind has risk.

Agreed.  We clearly have to open up more and more.  But we have to mitigate.  Masking.  Disinfecting.  Distancing.

What bothers me most is seeing reports from bars and restaurants where the staff refuses to mask and everyone is sitting like they were before.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I thought this was interesting on how spread is occurring. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/21/opinions/south-korea-dance-class-covid19-outbreak-sepkowitz/index.html

Fox version for those inclined (it’s the same)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/science/one-group-fitness-class-led-to-112-coronavirus-cases-in-south-korean-study-warns-as-societies-reopen.amp

I feel good about cancelling my gym membership after reading that. 

[MU82]

I 100% get that people are nervous about opening up and that is absolutely going to be key to the economy restarting is people getting to participate in it but.....

If we don't start reopening, I don't know when do we? Reopening, even in a very controlled manner will come with Increased risk of exposure. It will definitely result in more positive test results, it will very likely result in more hospitalizations and likely will result in more deaths. That all sucks, but unless we are staying closed until a vaccine I don't know how its avoidable. I'm all for mitigation but any opening of any kind has risk.

We agree 100%.

I don’t post these polls as “proof” that we shouldn’t re-open. We pretty much have to do it, although I hope we do so gradually, and with plans in place to test, trace, etc.

I post them to show that the narrative some have that Americans are clamoring to re-open this instant, regardless of how and regardless of consequences, is simply not reflected by the research.

Most Americans remain VERY concerned. Unlike certain politicians, they are not ready to claim victory and go back to “normal,” whatever that is.

[mu03eng]

We agree 100%.

I don’t post these polls as “proof” that we shouldn’t re-open. We pretty much have to do it, although I hope we do so gradually, and with plans in place to test, trace, etc.

I post them to show that the narrative some have that Americans are clamoring to re-open this instant, regardless of how and regardless of consequences, is simply not reflected by the research.

Most Americans remain VERY concerned. Unlike certain politicians, they are not ready to claim victory and go back to “normal,” whatever that is.

Make sense, I took your post to be an anti-open point, which was my mistake. I'm just seeing a ton of coverage leaning into the fear porn that is tying opening up to increases in positive test results(whether that is correlation without causation or not). We've(as a society) seemingly retreated to one of two corners, we're all gonna die or this a hoax.

[Pakuni]

We've(as a society) seemingly retreated to one of two corners, we're all gonna die or this a hoax.

Disagree, a bit. There definitely are extremes on both sides, and sometimes those voices are the loudest and get the most attention.
But every time I look around, I'm reminded that the whole "reopen vs stay closed" debate doesn't exist in reality and presents a false choice that, it seems, nobody is making.
Unless there's some jurisdiction of which I'm unaware - entirely possible - it seems that everyone is reopening. Different parts of the country are doing so with different timelines and with differing restrictions in place, but nobody is remaining completely shut down and nobody is back to normal. States with strict stay-at-home measures (Illinois, Cali, New York) are lifting them and, it seems, easing up one one aspect or another almost daily. States that were among the first to reopen (Georgia, Florida, Arizona) still have plenty of restrictions. And this makes sense, since not every state has been hit by the pandemic the same.
It appears the only outlier is Wisconsin which, thanks to a clownshow of a state supreme court, decided the Wild West approach was best.

And it seems the large majority of the public agrees with a measured approach to reopening ... a far cry from the notion that everybody is on one extreme or the other.
I guess what I'm saying is, don't buy into what the loudest, most extreme voices are selling. They are the fringe.

[MU82]

Make sense, I took your post to be an anti-open point, which was my mistake. I'm just seeing a ton of coverage leaning into the fear porn that is tying opening up to increases in positive test results(whether that is correlation without causation or not). We've(as a society) seemingly retreated to one of two corners, we're all gonna die or this a hoax.

We have to re-open. We simply cannot keep our economy shuttered for a year or whatever.

I like to think that we've learned a lot over these last 3 months about mitigation, good practices, etc. I wish we had better leadership on a national scale, but at least it appears most states have decent leadership on this issue.

I agree mostly with Pak about the extremes. Of course, it doesn't help things that the few thousand gun-toting, confederate-flag-waving science deniers are being called very good people by the president, who has declared victory and has moved on to other issues. Nor does it help that there are some at the other extreme. But I do believe the vast, vast majority of Americans favor gradual, sensible re-opening, even as they express some concerns.

There is zero way to proceed and have zero COVID-19 deaths, and I don't think anybody is so naive they believe that is a possibility.

What we need to avoid, at least for awhile, are situations that invite the virus to spread exponentially. Unfortunately, church services are one of those situations. So are political rallies, gyms, nightclubs, etc. It sucks. If I were a religious person, I'd want to get back inside my church. I wish I could use my gym and be reasonably concerned about its safety. I'd love to go listen to some rock 'n roll. But we all have to make sacrifices every day in life. We need to be smart, and to play the percentages.

[mu03eng]

Disagree, a bit. There definitely are extremes on both sides, and sometimes those voices are the loudest and get the most attention.
But every time I look around, I'm reminded that the whole "reopen vs stay closed" debate doesn't exist in reality and presents a false choice that, it seems, nobody is making.
Unless there's some jurisdiction of which I'm unaware - entirely possible - it seems that everyone is reopening. Different parts of the country are doing so with different timelines and with differing restrictions in place, but nobody is remaining completely shut down and nobody is back to normal. States with strict stay-at-home measures (Illinois, Cali, New York) are lifting them and, it seems, easing up one one aspect or another almost daily. States that were among the first to reopen (Georgia, Florida, Arizona) still have plenty of restrictions. And this makes sense, since not every state has been hit by the pandemic the same.
It appears the only outlier is Wisconsin which, thanks to a clownshow of a state supreme court, decided the Wild West approach was best.

And it seems the large majority of the public agrees with a measured approach to reopening ... a far cry from the notion that everybody is on one extreme or the other.
I guess what I'm saying is, don't buy into what the loudest, most extreme voices are selling. They are the fringe.

I completely agree, from a pragmatic approach the actual opening up is A) happening and B) doing so in a semi-controlled manner. my statement was more about the seemingly rhetorical positions this thread and other mediums in which the debate is taking place(news media, social media, etc). The breathless reporting I see about "single biggest day of positive results, one day after the {insert level of government} has eased restrictions" is driving me nuts. It's no wonder we have wing nuts who think this is a hoax, we don't seemingly have an ability to report on this stuff even in the mainstream of society

[GooooMarquette]

I agree with the last several posts – reopening has to take place, but it should take place in a measured, logical manner. Instead, we are seeing a haphazard, almost random reopening that makes almost everyone nervous. And it is happening under the watch of governors on both sides of the political spectrum; most are concerned about the health risks, but feeling both political and economic pressure to reopen. The result is a circus...which leads to the confused and sometimes contradictory poll results posted earlier (“the economy should re-open, but I don’t want to go out”).

The maddening part that is we actually had a plan that described a scientifically driven, logical approach. CDC wrote the plan, Trump advocated it for about 15 minutes, and then everyone abandoned it in favor of our current “chicken with its head cut off“ reopening strategy.

I am not saying the CDC plan is the only possibility. But we need something more logical and consistent than the haphazard and inconsistent plan we have now.

[Jockey]

Most Americans remain VERY concerned. Unlike certain politicians, they are not ready to claim victory and go back to “normal,” whatever that is.

I don’t know if they really are or not. When my wife and I went to a park here to walk, the outdoor Beer Garden had opened and about 80 people were packed in. I did not see even one face with a mask on. This despite living in a Covid hotspot. On the way home, I stopped at a Home Depor with a long line waiting to go in. Only a few of those in line were wearing masks and the line was pretty closely bunched. I did not go in.

[pbiflyer]

Florida has reopened most businesses, at 50% capacity. Sounds reasonable right? Except have you ever read the capacity limits posted outside businesses? It’s pretty large. Stores may hit that 50% limit during Christmas time, but are rarely anywhere near that number in normal times.
And the challenge is that many of those stores have abandon things to make feel people more comfortable. We have a local popular seafood store. Used to be able to order and pay over phone with curbside pick up. Now that things have reopened, they stopped that service. You have to go in and interact with the people working behind the counter, then stand in cashier line and hand them your credit card. Their 50% capacity for that small store still could make it pretty packed.
When I was there, there was only one other customer, but if it was packed like it was pre virus, I would have hoped right out of there.
And interestingly enough, when they did the curbside, there was a line of cars all the time. Going inside at about same time, like I said, one other person. Could just be I hit it at the wrong time, but I can’t remember the last time I was in there with only one other customer.

[forgetful]

I 100% get that people are nervous about opening up and that is absolutely going to be key to the economy restarting is people getting to participate in it but.....

If we don't start reopening, I don't know when do we? Reopening, even in a very controlled manner will come with Increased risk of exposure. It will definitely result in more positive test results, it will very likely result in more hospitalizations and likely will result in more deaths. That all sucks, but unless we are staying closed until a vaccine I don't know how its avoidable. I'm all for mitigation but any opening of any kind has risk.

Is the reopening helping business? Particularly small business. If a lot of people don't think it is safe to go to the businesses, how many customers will these places see? The average person can get along fine with internet commerce.

I wonder how much reopening is helping. I doubt most places are getting enough customers to even cover payroll for being open.

[Lennys Tap]

(“the economy should re-open, but I don’t want to go out”).

The “economy should re-open” recognizes the economic realities of and the fallouts from a continued shutdown.

The “I don’t want to go out” recognizes a fear that (IMO) is legit for the most vulnerable (and those who must have contact with the most vulnerable) but overstated for the vast majority of the population. Again, only my opinion, but I think healthy people who follow protocols (wash hands, don’t touch your face, social distance, wear masks, etc.) have very little to fear. Panic was understandable wHen so little was known about COVID. That’s just not the case anymore.

[MU82]

The “economy should re-open” recognizes the economic realities of and the fallouts from a continued shutdown.

The “I don’t want to go out” recognizes a fear that (IMO) is legit for the most vulnerable (and those who must have contact with the most vulnerable) but overstated for the vast majority of the population. Again, only my opinion, but I think healthy people who follow protocols (wash hands, don’t touch your face, social distance, wear masks, etc.) have very little to fear. Panic was understandable wHen so little was known about COVID. That’s just not the case anymore.

Reasonable, Lenny.

Of course one problem is if you and I follow protocols but are surrounded by non-social-distancing, non-mask-wearing mouth-breathers who think that caring about others ranks a distant second to their “freedom.”

The easy response is to just avoid those people, but that’s not easy to do in practice. Unfortunately, mouth-breathing “freedom lovers” often don’t follow protocols even if a business demands it or if a states rules mandate it. I mean, sometimes they won’t even wear masks at the Mayo Clinic or in a mask factory!

Which leaves those who don’t want to be exposed two options: go out despite the risks; or stay in even though they might like to go out and help the economy.

[Hards Alumni]

I present to you, America's plan to reopen.  Don't click the video if you're afraid of naughty language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0XBlNSxyrw

We're the worst planners in the world

[wadesworld]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ericonederful/status/1262579559263727617

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ericonederful/status/1262579559263727617

These things are funny but in reality everyone is in the same boat.  Almost all hard hit western countries are in some form of reopen. 

The question is did we put a good enough system in place to stay open.  Have we communicated enough on what is required.  Birx and now dewine are adding to the ND governors comments about masks today.  We are going to have to pull together if we want some semblance of an economy.   

That’s why open/closed is ancient history.  The question now is ‘have we made it safe enough for the consumer to spend’. 

[GooooMarquette]

Reasonable, Lenny.

Of course one problem is if you and I follow protocols but are surrounded by non-social-distancing, non-mask-wearing mouth-breathers who think that caring about others ranks a distant second to their “freedom.”

Agreed. The approach that you and Lenny are talking about is completely reasonable, but it assumes that people who go out will follow the rules. Regrettably, we have all seen videos and pictures where huge crowds are gathering without masks or any remote attempt to social distance. And when the reasonable people who would like to go out see those images, many decide to stay inside until the numbers actually start decreasing more substantially...which might be quite a while.

[Jockey]

At a time when 100,000 Americans have died and we desperately need leadership, what is our leader doing?

Golfing and tweeting about Joe Scarborough murdering his intern. That's about it, unless you consider wanting to start nuclear testing again. Oh, and I also forgot - urging people to gather everywhere in large groups to spread the virus so he can suck up to the God people.

[tower912]

Golfing, meh.   Hypocritical as hell since he spent 8 years bashing Obama for it, but other than they hypocrisy, not that big a deal.   Scarborough is just meat for the base.   It isn't going to get him a single vote, but it will keep the MAGAs fired up.

[mu03eng]

Golfing, meh.   Hypocritical as hell since he spent 8 years bashing Obama for it, but other than they hypocrisy, not that big a deal.   Scarborough is just meat for the base.   It isn't going to get him a single vote, but it will keep the MAGAs fired up.

And ironic given the fact that Scarborough gave Trump a huge platform for his run in 2016

[Lennys Tap]

And ironic given the fact that Scarborough gave Trump a huge platform for his run in 2016

Friends who became bitter enemies.