Kenosha

[forgetful]

What effect will the fact that he was illegally carrying a gun when he committed murder have on this?

I've been trying to figure out the magnitude of the crimes he committed before hand. We know he was a minor in possession of a firearm (misdemeanor: Wisconsin; unknown Illinois). He crossed state lines with a firearm illegally (unknown magnitude). He possessed a firearm illegally, while also breaking curfew (unknown magnitude).

If any of his offenses rises to the level of a felony. Then he's sunk, as a person died during the commission of a felony. If not, the fact that people are already treating him as a hero in some circles may mean he doesn't face punishment.

[#UnleashSean]

Re self defense, my understanding is you can only respond with the amount of force that you are in danger of. Aka if someone is trying to punch you, you can't use deadly force. Now I haven't seen the original video but it would seem that if people were trying to apprehend him after the first shooting that his life wasn't in danger and thus he has no reasonable case for shooting to kill.

It will all depend on how the 1st death is viewed. If its murder, then self defense for the other two is out the window. If its viewed self defense, the other two will be as well.

If we completely ignore the first part, being tackled by 3 people and getting clocked in the head with a skateboard would be viewed as able to use deadly force.

[Jockey]

I've been trying to figure out the magnitude of the crimes he committed before hand. We know he was a minor in possession of a firearm (misdemeanor: Wisconsin; unknown Illinois). He crossed state lines with a firearm illegally (unknown magnitude). He possessed a firearm illegally, while also breaking curfew (unknown magnitude).

If any of his offenses rises to the level of a felony. Then he's sunk, as a person died during the commission of a felony. If not, the fact that people are already treating him as a hero in some circles may mean he doesn't face punishment.

If he goes unpunished, the events of the last few days in Kenosha will pale in comparison to what will happen.

I pray that isn't how this case goes.

[NCMUFan]

Let the trial take place.
Seems like we are hitting mob mentality if truth and justice can't prevail.

[Billy Hoyle]

Throwing this out there for the sake of information because those of you in WI are going to hear a whole hell of a lot about it:

"The recent officer-involved shooting in Kenosha has produced a variety of feelings and narratives; most of which are wholly inaccurate. The purely fictional depiction of events coming from those without direct knowledge of what actually occurred is incredibly harmful, and provides no benefit to anyone whatsoever, other than to perpetuate a misleading narrative.

The lawyers for Mr. Blake, among others, have continued to provide false and misleading “facts” to the public, in what can only be considered a ploy for attention and sympathy. Unfortunately, even the incident update from the Wisconsin Department of Justice, Division of Criminal Investigation (“DCI”) -- the agency charged with investigating the incident independently -- is riddled with incomplete information, and omits important details that would help to paint a more complete picture of the incident. While DCI updated that release earlier today (8/28/20), it is still lacking.

The Kenosha Professional Police Association, including the officers involved, believe the public deserves to know the truth.

Here are the actual and undisputed facts:
-The officers were dispatched to the location due to a complaint that Mr. Blake was attempting to steal the caller’s keys/vehicle.
-Officers were aware of Mr. Blake’s open warrant for felony sexual assault (3rd degree) before they arrived on scene.
-Mr. Blake was not breaking up a fight between two females when officers arrived on scene.
-The silver SUV seen in the widely circulated video was not Mr. Blake’s vehicle.
-Mr. Blake was not unarmed. He was armed with a knife. The officers did not see the knife initially. The officers first saw him holding the knife while they were on the passenger side of the vehicle. The “main” video circulating on the internet shows Mr. Blake with the knife in his left hand when he rounds the front of the car. The officers issued repeated commands for Mr. Blake to drop the knife. He did not comply.
-The officers initially tried to speak with Mr. Blake, but he was uncooperative.
-The officers then began issuing verbal commands to Mr. Blake, but he was non-complaint.
-The officers next went “hands-on” with Mr. Blake, so as to gain compliance and control.
-Mr. Blake actively resisted the officers’ attempt to gain compliance.
-The officers then disengaged and drew their tasers, issuing commands to Mr. Blake that he would be tased if he did not comply.
-Based on his non-compliance, one officer tased Mr. Blake. The taser did not incapacitate Mr. Blake.
-The officers once more went “hands-on” with Mr. Blake; again, trying to gain control of the escalating situation.
-Mr. Blake forcefully fought with the officers, including putting one of the officers in a headlock.
-A second taser (from a different officer than had deployed the initial taser) was then deployed on Mr. Blake. It did not appear to have any impact on him.
-Based on the inability to gain compliance and control after using verbal, physical and less-lethal means, the officers drew their firearms.
-Mr. Blake continued to ignore the officers’ commands, even with the threat of lethal force now present.
The foregoing facts need to be added to the story to correct what is currently out there. As the uncontested facts above demonstrate, the officers involved gave Mr. Blake numerous opportunities to comply. He chose not to. None of the officers involved wished for things to transpire the way it did. It is my hope that truth and transparency will help begin and aid in the healing process.

Thank you.
Brendan P. Matthews
CERMELE & MATTHEWS, S.C.

[GB Warrior]

I've now gone up to and toe-d over the line of what I've got professional insight into, but I'm fairly certain that you forfeit your ability to claim self defense when you instigate the response you're defending yourself from.

e.g., I incite you to attack me, then I defend myself by committing battery against you, I don't know if my battery is privileged by my claim of self defense.

But again, to whomever focused in on the first shooting, that's the lynchpin. If he wasn't defending himself in Shooting 1, then he caused the response he was defending himself against Shooting 2.

Does the fact that he was ostensibly committing a crime during that act of self defense make a difference even if self defense would have OTHERWISE been a legitimate argument?

[Pakuni]

So he had a knife the whole time? He put a cop in a headlock while holding a knife?Cops went 'hands on' twice with a guy holding a knife? Cops grabbed a man amed with a knife by his T-shirt as he walked away?
None of that account makes sense. Perhaps it's just poorly written.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

So he had a knife the whole time? He put a cop in a headlock while holding a knife?Cops went 'hands on' twice with a guy holding a knife? Cops grabbed a man amed with a knife by his T-shirt as he walked away?
None of that account makes sense. Perhaps it's just poorly written.

It's written as a PR document - not a legal one.

[Jockey]

Throwing this out there for the sake of information because those of you in WI are going to hear a whole hell of a lot about it:

"The recent officer-involved shooting in Kenosha has produced a variety of feelings and narratives; most of which are wholly inaccurate. The purely fictional depiction of events coming from those without direct knowledge of what actually occurred is incredibly harmful, and provides no benefit to anyone whatsoever, other than to perpetuate a misleading narrative.

The lawyers for Mr. Blake, among others, have continued to provide false and misleading “facts” to the public, in what can only be considered a ploy for attention and sympathy. Unfortunately, even the incident update from the Wisconsin Department of Justice, Division of Criminal Investigation (“DCI”) -- the agency charged with investigating the incident independently -- is riddled with incomplete information, and omits important details that would help to paint a more complete picture of the incident. While DCI updated that release earlier today (8/28/20), it is still lacking.

The Kenosha Professional Police Association, including the officers involved, believe the public deserves to know the truth.

Here are the actual and undisputed facts:
-The officers were dispatched to the location due to a complaint that Mr. Blake was attempting to steal the caller’s keys/vehicle.
-Officers were aware of Mr. Blake’s open warrant for felony sexual assault (3rd degree) before they arrived on scene.
-Mr. Blake was not breaking up a fight between two females when officers arrived on scene.
-The silver SUV seen in the widely circulated video was not Mr. Blake’s vehicle.
-Mr. Blake was not unarmed. He was armed with a knife. The officers did not see the knife initially. The officers first saw him holding the knife while they were on the passenger side of the vehicle. The “main” video circulating on the internet shows Mr. Blake with the knife in his left hand when he rounds the front of the car. The officers issued repeated commands for Mr. Blake to drop the knife. He did not comply.
-The officers initially tried to speak with Mr. Blake, but he was uncooperative.
-The officers then began issuing verbal commands to Mr. Blake, but he was non-complaint.
-The officers next went “hands-on” with Mr. Blake, so as to gain compliance and control.
-Mr. Blake actively resisted the officers’ attempt to gain compliance.
-The officers then disengaged and drew their tasers, issuing commands to Mr. Blake that he would be tased if he did not comply.
-Based on his non-compliance, one officer tased Mr. Blake. The taser did not incapacitate Mr. Blake.
-The officers once more went “hands-on” with Mr. Blake; again, trying to gain control of the escalating situation.
-Mr. Blake forcefully fought with the officers, including putting one of the officers in a headlock.
-A second taser (from a different officer than had deployed the initial taser) was then deployed on Mr. Blake. It did not appear to have any impact on him.
-Based on the inability to gain compliance and control after using verbal, physical and less-lethal means, the officers drew their firearms.
-Mr. Blake continued to ignore the officers’ commands, even with the threat of lethal force now present.
The foregoing facts need to be added to the story to correct what is currently out there. As the uncontested facts above demonstrate, the officers involved gave Mr. Blake numerous opportunities to comply. He chose not to. None of the officers involved wished for things to transpire the way it did. It is my hope that truth and transparency will help begin and aid in the healing process.

Thank you.
Brendan P. Matthews
CERMELE & MATTHEWS, S.C.

Really? You are telling us to trust the police version of events?

PT Barnum just smiled in his grave. Still collecting converts this many years later.

[Pakuni]

It's written as a PR document - not a legal one.

Yes, I'm aware. But even a PR document should have some semblance of logic to it. This seems not to.

[tower912]

Maybe.   Feels like XXXL Depends.

[GooooMarquette]

Am I the only one who finds it odd that the police union has released a statement of the ‘facts’ before the police department or city?

[reinko]

Am I the only one who finds it odd that the police union has released a statement of the ‘facts’ before the police department or city?

It’s not odd if you have read about police unions. 

[Billy Hoyle]

Really? You are telling us to trust the police version of events?

PT Barnum just smiled in his grave. Still collecting converts this many years later.

No. I’m posting it because it’s what the other side is running with.

[Buzzed]

Live in the area, under curfew, but do not live close to the protest.  Have been following this close ever since Monday when I couldn't buy groceries after work because they closed to board up.

Everything about the situation is tragic and I am glad Blake is alive.  There are still a lot of facts that need to come out, but the biggest questions are around the knife.  A witness has stated Blake said he had a knife, Blake's attorney said he did not.  All the WI DCI has stated was a knife was found on the floorboards of the car.  So either the officer walked behind Blake who was armed with a knife and only shot him in the back after he got to the car or the knife was in the car and he was shot in the back.  Any scenario he is shot in the back, which is plain wrong.

Related:
Blake was uncuffed from his hospital bed after his $500 bail was posted for his May incident.

Rittenhouse is being held by IL as a fugitive of justice.  His delayed extradition was granted by an IL judge as he retains counsel for his next hearing.  With his current WI charges he is facing a mandatory life sentence.  At the press conference today, it was asked if his mother drove him to Kenosha.  A lot more details still need to come out.  I could see a plea deal, but do think he will get serious time.  In my opinion, WI is in no rush to bring him here.  The last thing we need is protestors for his release.  Antioch implemented a curfew just due to his arrest.

[tower912]

'Other side'.    Sigh.   

[Babybluejeans]

What’s amazing is that even the police union’s bogus facts STILL don’t justify the decision to shoot him.

[forgetful]

If he goes unpunished, the events of the last few days in Kenosha will pale in comparison to what will happen.

I pray that isn't how this case goes.

His attorneys are now saying he didn't cross state lines with the weapon.

That means, someone illegally gave a 17 year old an AR-15 that was used in a fatal shooting. If true, that person is in trouble.

Also, that would mean he dumped the weapon before going back to Illinois. That would also imply hiding/attempting to destroy evidence. Does not sound like an innocent person who defended himself.

Also, the first person he shot, was apparently shot in the back, and groin. Shooting someone in the back does not sound like self defense.

[rocky_warrior]

Shooting someone in the back does not sound like self defense.

Unless you're the police!

Too soon?

[JWags85]

Also, the first person he shot, was apparently shot in the back, and groin. Shooting someone in the back does not sound like self defense.

Where did you see this by chance? Not doubting you but everything said the first victim was shot in the head, and the video/stills I saw showed a man bleeding from the head and a crude t shirt wrap being placed around his head

[jesmu84]

Old one, but still applicable:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42277309?fbclid=IwAR0KeM29bRqQ7Pu5rVZANQCynT1Y4cYIr6zAnJYj58nJk3D_ekF8U7mvImw

Sad.

BLM. If only they'd comply/follow orders:

https://twitter.com/ShannonSharpe/status/1299427348211625984?s=19

[Jockey]

It will all depend on how the 1st death is viewed. If its murder, then self defense for the other two is out the window. If its viewed self defense, the other two will be as well.

If we completely ignore the first part, being tackled by 3 people and getting clocked in the head with a skateboard would be viewed as able to use deadly force.

He murdered a man who was trying to stop him after the 1st murder. Hardly self defense.

[Jockey]

Where did you see this by chance? Not doubting you but everything said the first victim was shot in the head, and the video/stills I saw showed a man bleeding from the head and a crude t shirt wrap being placed around his head

The second man was shot in the head.

[CreightonWarrior]

The second man was shot in the head.

I don’t think this is correct. The first victim was shot in the head during the first chase of the shooter. The second death was the skateboarder who was hitting him on the head with a skateboard. The third who didn’t die was also armed, which will be interesting to see how that plays out.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanmac/kenosha-militia-facebook-reported-455-times-moderators