Kenosha

[Pakuni]

"Manslaughter" isn't a thing in Wisconsin.

There's intentional homicide (1st or 2nd degree), which requires (I know it's obvious) intent.

"whoever causes the death of another human being with intent to kill that person or another is guilty of a Class A felony." Wis. Stat. 940.01

There's reckless homicide (1st or 2nd degree), which does not require intent.

"Whoever recklessly causes the death of another human being under circumstances which show utter disregard for human life is guilty of a Class B felony." Wis. Stat 940.02.

In common parlance, reckless homicide is Wisconsin's version of manslaughter, and Rittenhouse has been charged with 1 count of it.

Practically speaking, he's looking at a mandatory life in prison sentence for the 1st degree intentional homicide charge, and Wisconsin has one of the strictest truth in sentencing acts, so he'd have nothing to gain by pleading to that. He takes a plea on everything else and drops down off the mandatory life, and he could still breathe free air again.

We'll see.

I fear this kid is going to be used as a prop by both sides of this culture war, neither of which will tolerate a reasonable plea deal. The right would rather see him convicted and sent to prison for life, giving them a martyr. The left would rather see him walk free and serve as an example of racial injustice.
The only hope here is he gets a lawyer who serves his interests, and not a cause ... which seems unlikely from the rumblings out there.

[#UnleashSean]

So we are giving a man who shot and killed two people, and wounded another a month to assemble a legal team to see if he should be arrested?

Meanwhile, another man lays paralyzed from the waist down and handcuffed to a hospital bed after being shot 7 times in the back by a police officer.

Justice in America laid bare.

It's not like he's sitting at his house laying in his pool. He's sitting in a cell. If he was at a hospital he would be handcuffed to a bad.

[jficke13]

I fear this kid is going to be used as a prop by both sides of this culture war, neither of which will tolerate a reasonable plea deal. The right would rather see him convicted and sent to prison for life, giving them a martyr. The left would rather see him walk free and serve as an example of racial injustice.
The only hope here is he gets a lawyer who serves his interests, and not a cause ... which seems unlikely from the rumblings out there.

You're right. He needs objective and competent counsel and he needs it yesterday.

The internet lawyers rallying to his defense are claiming self-defense. He needs someone well-versed in making such arguments in Wisconsin to advise him as to whether he has a legitimate argument there. Hanging one's life on that defense is heckuva roll of the dice. I'd sure want to know my odds before going through with that bet.

The Kenosha DA also runs the risk of getting George Zimmerman-ed (IMHO that was overcharged due to political pressure and DA ambition, resulting in an acquittal on the stricter intent-based charge). I hope the DA has the wisdom necessary to evaluate charge, penalty, and plea in a way that is objective and reasonable.

[Warriors4ever]

Continuing the extradition to obtain legal counsel of one’s choice is not unusual. Everyone is entitled to due process.
I am not up on Wisconsin law, but I assume these are preliminary charges to move the process along. I would bet that in the end he may well be charged with a combination of murder, reckless homicide and weapons charges.

[Hards Alumni]

It's not like he's sitting at his house laying in his pool. He's sitting in a cell. If he was at a hospital he would be handcuffed to a bad.

Yeah others made that clear, I wasn't aware because the original article I posted did not make that clear.  Mea Culpa for not reading further first.

What I don't understand from a procedural standpoint, is how Rittenhouse can be arrested and charged, but the extradition be delayed.  Is this common? 

[Pakuni]

Yeah others made that clear, I wasn't aware because the original article I posted did not make that clear.  Mea Culpa for not reading further first.

What I don't understand from a procedural standpoint, is how Rittenhouse can be arrested and charged, but the extradition be delayed.  Is this common?

It's generally not common to oppose extradition because it's a losing fight 99.9 percent of the time, especially interstate extradition, which is a bit of an anachronism (as opposed to international extradition).
Of course, the kid probably won't end up fighting it. So really this is just about him being given time to secure counsel. A month is a long time for that, but since he's in detention it really doesn't matter much. Unless the Kenosha Militia has plans to break him out (and I wouldn't put it past them), he's not going anywhere.

[mu03eng]

You're right. He needs objective and competent counsel and he needs it yesterday.

The internet lawyers rallying to his defense are claiming self-defense. He needs someone well-versed in making such arguments in Wisconsin to advise him as to whether he has a legitimate argument there. Hanging one's life on that defense is heckuva roll of the dice. I'd sure want to know my odds before going through with that bet.

The Kenosha DA also runs the risk of getting George Zimmerman-ed (IMHO that was overcharged due to political pressure and DA ambition, resulting in an acquittal on the stricter intent-based charge). I hope the DA has the wisdom necessary to evaluate charge, penalty, and plea in a way that is objective and reasonable.

This is largely the point I was trying to make with the early prediction (you did so from a much more eloquent and informed base), outside influences will be demanding the harshest form of charging (not recognizing the import of intent) where another group will push for full dismissal (arguing self defense). The DA is going to have to thread the needle of what he can win on in court and what will "satisfy" the outside influences.

The very politicization of this event will make achieving the correct justice outcome much harder (ie those who are rightly seeking justice risk making that justice difficult to achieve by pushing for it).

[#UnleashSean]

The cameras aren't the big expense.  The secure storage to hold all of the data is the expense.  My understanding is that most (all?) states don't allow for cloud storage since it can be potential evidence.

You would think that would be the deterrent.

However in real life it's used by new Berlin and other similar municipalities to boost their coffers.
 If you have enough low level crime and traffic violations (trespassing, resisting, DUIs, etc) that could easily be explained away with cameras, now become bank for the city as the crimes/violations aren't enough to pay a lawyer for defense.

[muwarrior69]

Support for Black Lives Matter declining according to Marquette poll.

https://rpubs.com/PollsAndVotes/652966

[Pakuni]

Support for Black Lives Matter declining according to Marquette poll.

https://rpubs.com/PollsAndVotes/652966

Just worth noting that this is a poll of 800 Wisconsinites, not national.
And it also shows something else noteworthy.

[Jockey]

Per JSonline he's going to be defended by the same people who represented the Covington Catholic kid. I'm not sure that's who I'd want were in his shoes.


https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/08/27/kyle-rittenhouse-defended-fightback-foundation-kenosha-shooting-l-lin-wood-raising-money-gofundme/5650147002/

Was there any doubt that these people would try to make a hero out of this kid. Fox News was in early defending him. Many more will follow.

[MU82]

2) Body cams work both ways. Not long ago, residents of a neighborhood in Detroit accused the police of abuse of power for shooting and killing a man who police said had a gun. The neighbors said he was killed for no reason by Detroit Police. A very angry Police Chief pulled out the body cam footage and broadcast the man police killed firing at police officers. The police returned fire. Last time anyone questioned those police officers.

Good. I want the cops to be protected, too. I hope all of us do.

3) Full disclosure: My son desires to become a police officer.

Also good. We need more good cops, and I am going to start from the assumption that he will be just that. I wish him a great, safe, satisfying career of public service.

[muwarrior69]

Just worth noting that this is a poll of 800 Wisconsinites, not national.
And it also shows something else noteworthy.

Here is another confirming the same trend at least among white americans and insight as to why.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/support-for-black-lives-matter-surged-during-protests-but-is-waning-among-white-americans/

[Golden Avalanche]

Here is another confirming the same trend at least among white americans and insight as to why.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/support-for-black-lives-matter-surged-during-protests-but-is-waning-among-white-americans/

This isn't news.

The "trend" of some white americans not believing black lives matter has been evident for roughly 400 years.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Eliminating for-profit prisons would go a long way

The profit motive to incarcerate people highly influences how laws are written which then incentivizes a lot of police interaction where none need be.

[forgetful]

Early prediction:

The shooter from Tuesday night will plea out with no murder conviction or go to trial and be acquitted on murder charges. He'll plea out on lesser charges or will be convicted of less charges but murder won't be one of them. At best it'll be manslaughter.

I'm not sure he will ever really face jail time. He is already being highlighted as a hero by some in certain political circles.

[#UnleashSean]

I'm not sure he will ever really face jail time. He is already being highlighted as a hero by some in certain political circles.

It'll depend completely on the 1st death's outcome. I'd believe it could be argued self defense for the other two.

[Hards Alumni]

It'll depend completely on the 1st death's outcome. I'd believe it could be argued self defense for the other two.

I'm not sure self defense will stick.  He was, ostensibly, defending himself from people who believed him to be an active shooter... which he was.

This obviously, not a lawyer opinion, but I've formed my bias and I'd like to share. 

[MU82]

He's my hero!

[JWags85]

I'm not sure self defense will stick.  He was, ostensibly, defending himself from people who believed him to be an active shooter... which he was.

This obviously, not a lawyer opinion, but I've formed my bias and I'd like to share. 

But the first shooting can likely be in question too. From video, the first victim was belligerent and pursued him before being shot. There are no winners here, and this kid was looking for trouble and found it, but it doesn’t clearly appear that it started from him shooting an innocent person minding their business.

[Jockey]

I'm not sure self defense will stick.  He was, ostensibly, defending himself from people who believed him to be an active shooter... which he was.

This obviously, not a lawyer opinion, but I've formed my bias and I'd like to share. 

What effect will the fact that he was illegally carrying a gun when he committed murder have on this?

[MUBurrow]

Tough to find a much better encapsulation of white privilege than castle doctrine applying everywhere.

[shoothoops]

https://twitter.com/sarasidnercnn/status/1299425648797249536

[jficke13]

I'm not sure self defense will stick.  He was, ostensibly, defending himself from people who believed him to be an active shooter... which he was.

This obviously, not a lawyer opinion, but I've formed my bias and I'd like to share. 

I've now gone up to and toe-d over the line of what I've got professional insight into, but I'm fairly certain that you forfeit your ability to claim self defense when you instigate the response you're defending yourself from.

e.g., I incite you to attack me, then I defend myself by committing battery against you, I don't know if my battery is privileged by my claim of self defense.

But again, to whomever focused in on the first shooting, that's the lynchpin. If he wasn't defending himself in Shooting 1, then he caused the response he was defending himself against Shooting 2.

[Galway Eagle]

Re self defense, my understanding is you can only respond with the amount of force that you are in danger of. Aka if someone is trying to punch you, you can't use deadly force. Now I haven't seen the original video but it would seem that if people were trying to apprehend him after the first shooting that his life wasn't in danger and thus he has no reasonable case for shooting to kill.