Kenosha

[Pakuni]

I’ll add that we have to fix the culture of blanket immunity—the sniveling face of Derek Chauvin spoke volumes about police entitlement and lack of accountability more broadly. Police union protection is one area of reform, and so is the legal system’s treatment of police (e.g., qualified immunity).

But the whole foundation is problematic. It’s become an adversarial system, where police are de facto against the people they’re entrusted to protect. The British model, where officers exist to HELP and KEEP PEACE, generally works—but to do that here requires such substantial cultural changes I’m not it’s possible without scrapping and starting over. And that’s what I think is necessary, ultimately.

Nailed it.
The suggestions by dgies, Hards and MU82 are well-thought and worthwhile, but the real problem is a cultural one. Police in many communities have for decades treated the people they serve like the enemy, and in turn those people treat police like the enemy. It's a lose-lose situation.
Scrapping it and starting over doesn't seem pragmatic or possible (or particularly popular). But I think there are some steps that can be taken to address the culture.

1. Remove incentives for negative interactions with the public. Things like ticket and arrest quotas serve no law enforcement purpose beyond filling department coffers. I don't think cops need extra incentive to arrest or cite people behaving dangerously. That's the job they want to do. Quotas simply force them to find excuses to make arrests or issue citations, or to make them when a warning or some other intervention might be the better solution.

2. End qualified immunity for police. A system that says police can rarely be held accountable for misconduct, to no one's surprise I hope, leads to police misconduct.

3. Provide more support for police officers. Being a cop is obviously an exceptionally stressful job and suicides by police have risen dramatically in recent years. And yet departments are far behind when it comes to providing officers with mental health services and other forms of support. The macho culture that says seeking help is a sign of weakness still very much exists, and cops have a very real fear that doing so will harm their reputations and long-term career prospects.

There's more, but that's a start.

[#UnleashSean]

BODY CAMS!

Be it through federal, state or local funds, every single cop who goes out on assignment must wear and must use a body cam.

The failure to turn on a body cam will result in at least a one-month suspension without pay. If multiple officers are on the same assignment and they all conveniently "forget" to turn on their body cams, it will be assumed they were conspiring in a lie and they will be fired. If an officer claims the body cam malfunctioned and it's discovered he or she was lying, he or she will be fired, and not allowed to be hired again in law enforcement anywhere in the United States.

It's sad, but we no longer can give officers the benefit of the doubt in he said/he said situations. We absolutely need video evidence of every encounter with the public. Period.

This has always been ridiculous to me. I have a dash cam and a rearview cam and it cost me $50. New berlin doesn't even have dash cams in their cruisers, none the less body cams. Imagine how much bs the cops there have gotten away with.

[jficke13]

BODY CAMS!

Be it through federal, state or local funds, every single cop who goes out on assignment must wear and must use a body cam.

The failure to turn on a body cam will result in at least a one-month suspension without pay. If multiple officers are on the same assignment and they all conveniently "forget" to turn on their body cams, it will be assumed they were conspiring in a lie and they will be fired. If an officer claims the body cam malfunctioned and it's discovered he or she was lying, he or she will be fired, and not allowed to be hired again in law enforcement anywhere in the United States.

It's sad, but we no longer can give officers the benefit of the doubt in he said/he said situations. We absolutely need video evidence of every encounter with the public. Period.

Nah, charge for obstruction of justice and destroying evidence on a strict liability standard (no intent required), and a federal civil rights investigation.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

By the way, CT has already passed legislation in response to George Floyd protests within the last month/month & 1/2, which included tackling the immunity question.  I'm sure its not perfect, but it is a step.

So this isn't some insurmountable thing -- we can make changes.

[GooooMarquette]

Lots of great ideas by Dgeis and others.

I would add a universal requirement for all police officers to speak out in real time and report misconduct by their colleagues, including supervisors, with 'whistleblower' type protections for all good faith reports and stiff sanctions for failure to report. No more 'I saw him doing bad things, but I couldn't say anything because [insert excuse here].'

To put this in current context, two of the officers (Lane and Kueng) involved in the George Floyd killing were being trained by Chauvin, and the attorney for Lane was quoted as saying "What was my client supposed to do but follow what his training officer said?" The new policy should have a clear answer: He was supposed to tell his training officer that his actions were clearly wrong.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

This has always been ridiculous to me. I have a dash cam and a rearview cam and it cost me $50. New berlin doesn't even have dash cams in their cruisers, none the less body cams. Imagine how much bs the cops there have gotten away with.

The cameras aren't the big expense.  The secure storage to hold all of the data is the expense.  My understanding is that most (all?) states don't allow for cloud storage since it can be potential evidence.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

By the way, CT has already passed legislation in response to George Floyd protests within the last month/month & 1/2, which included tackling the immunity question.  I'm sure its not perfect, but it is a step.

So this isn't some insurmountable thing -- we can make changes.

Was just going to say the same. 

I'll add in Community Policing.  Reinvented here in New Haven in the mid-90s to address a then high crime rate.  It includes old time policing where cops are forced to walk a beat for a full year.  No cars allowed.  They are instructed to meet everyone on their beat and know who they are.  They found that when people know their beat cop, they are most trusting with telling the officer what is going on in the neighborhood. 
New Haven abandoned ten years ago and brought back a few years after when they saw crime going up.  Crime promptly went back down.

[dgies9156]

Fascinating discussion. Some thoughts on what has been said:

1) Community policing, making police officers part of the community and aligning "to serve and protect" with the community is really important. Too often, police become our adversaries. My favorite story is about a time my Dad and I were on Minnesota's North Shore and we were stopped for speeding. The officer had a job to do, which was to promote safety on Mn 61, and he did it in a very friendly and actually appreciative way. He got his point across by laughing with my Dad and reminding me he had "friends" down the highway. If you talk to people and befriend them, you break down barriers. That's the point of the New Haven program and the Chicago CAPS program.

2) Body cams work both ways. Not long ago, residents of a neighborhood in Detroit accused the police of abuse of power for shooting and killing a man who police said had a gun. The neighbors said he was killed for no reason by Detroit Police. A very angry Police Chief pulled out the body cam footage and broadcast the man police killed firing at police officers. The police returned fire. Last time anyone questioned those police officers.

3) Full disclosure: My son desires to become a police officer. He is completing his degree this semester and already has interned with a downstate Illinois police department. He originally was a criminal justice major but switched to social work, for which he will receive a degree. His comment on the switch, "Dad, I don't want to be a lawyer." The point in bringing it up is that his degree probably will be more suited for a patrol officer than a traditional Criminal Justice degree. He'll still have to go to the academy and all, but he's been very active over the years with our community here, has rebuilt homes in low income communities and generally has a sensitivity to people that will serve him well as an officer. As much as I privately growled "s-o-c-i-a-l  w-o-r-k...?" I see the value in what he's doing and sometimes will admit Dads can be wrong.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Was just going to say the same. 

I'll add in Community Policing.  Reinvented here in New Haven in the mid-90s to address a then high crime rate.  It includes old time policing where cops are forced to walk a beat for a full year.  No cars allowed.  They are instructed to meet everyone on their beat and know who they are.  They found that when people know their beat cop, they are most trusting with telling the officer what is going on in the neighborhood. 
New Haven abandoned ten years ago and brought back a few years after when they saw crime going up.  Crime promptly went back down.

If anyone wants to hear about the man who did this (bring it back), the link is below.  I think many MU folks would find it time well spent listening to the piece/interview.  This is a man who decided NOT to become a Jesuit priest because he wanted to serve  more directly.  I think it was meant to be a quick interview, but it was so fascinating to the NPR host that it went on for 12+ mins.

https://www.wnpr.org/post/departing-new-haven-police-chief-speaks-ministry-law-enforcement

[Hards Alumni]

https://www.channel3000.com/illinois-teen-charged-in-kenosha-killings-stalls-return-to-wisconsin/

Ummmmmm what?  Any law talking guys around here what the justification could be for this?

[shoothoops]

In changing the direction, I'd propose a single question: Many of us are angry at what has happened in Kenosha, as well as in Minneapolis, Atlanta, Chicago (Laquan McDonald) and other places.

What do you think we should do about it? What tangible steps should be taken now to address the grievances and anger that exists in our country. Whether it be by government, churches or the private sector. What should be done?

I'll start:

1) We need to change the way we train police officers. We need to move away from a paramilitary organization first and more toward an community-based organization that's protecting through, in part, involvement in communities. We need an open and free-form discussion between police officers and the communities they serve aimed at building bridges rather than walls.

2) We need to improve police recruitment. We need more Latino, African-American, female, gay and lesbian and Asian police officers. We also need to encourage college graduates to become police officers and tighten minimum educational standards for police officers.

3) We need tighter gun laws that put more control over gun shows, private sales and other non-registered gun sales. That and society should consider tougher prison sentences and harsher enforcement for persons with unregistered firearms in their possession. If we reduce the number of guns on the street, we reduce the fear that police officers live in and relax the apprehension that police have when confronting citizens.

This is a start. I'm sure everyone on both sides of the political spectrum has ideas. What can we do????

In no particular order:

1) Nationwide Public Acknowledgement of Racism, discrimination, abuses of power etc...every police department. Long term efforts to make amends as a top priority. Many people still do not even do the acknowledgement part. Many others say, yeah we know but blah blah.

2) Accountability. What we have been seeing is nothing new. What is new in recent modern times is technology, victims, bystanders, witnesses, recording events in real time which refute false reports and lies. We still can't even get body cameras where needed, We can't even get officers to turn them on etc...Tear down the Blue Wall of Silence. Protests have led to action and charges in some situation's which would not have happened otherwise. "Thank you for your service." We hear that so much when speaking of police, military, etc...I understand and can appreciate the general sentiment but reality is all service is not the same. Everyone is an individual, some good, some bad, some in between.

Access to police records is way too challenging. Disciplined officers, bad apples, often get minimal reprimand and can way too easily stay in the department, switch departments or go to a different force in the same or different state. There needs to be an easy access public database, and a zero tolerance for bad officers. Greatly increased transparency. Broad sunshine laws.

Protect and serve vs create revenue. Many small and very large police departments across the country incentivize revenue creation over protecting and serving the community. This of course means often times, Minority neighborhoods are targeted because they often lack the political power to fight back. Change the incentives to be how many complaints are there against a particular officer,  how many times did that officer use force. Reduction of these need to be the incentive not tickets for nonsense targeting minorities. This is a huge issue.

Investigations into police need to come from the outside.

3) Improved training, Racism and racial bias training, Mental Illness training, age appropriate training, mediation training, emotional intelligence training, temperament training. Way better use of force training with the goal being to avoid use of force.

4) Higher standards, higher pay. The amount of training hours to become a police officer is very small.

5) The police officers need to be a reflection of the communities they serve.

6) There are 18,000 police agencies in the United States. More than 15,000 are at the state and local level. Data collection, data sharing is bad. Federal funding can be based on meeting standards and requirements.
In the past 60 years, there have only been 30,000 police officers decertified. Half of those came from three states.

Reward the better officers that are using some of the above mentioned methods. For example, in one city, many protestors would only speak with a specific White officer who is very good at de-esculation, crisis intervention, and whom they would trust to be fair with them because he earned their trust over time in the trenches. They literally ask for him at other protests and locations to help communication and to prevent escalation and diffuse tensions. Need a lot of similar officers.

These are a few things to start.

[jficke13]

https://www.channel3000.com/illinois-teen-charged-in-kenosha-killings-stalls-return-to-wisconsin/

Ummmmmm what?  Any law talking guys around here what the justification could be for this?

Not without a copy of the judicial order or even a shred of context surrounding the proceedings. Not a lot of detail to go on in this crack channel3000.com reporting.

[jficke13]

From jsonline:

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/08/28/kyle-rittenhouse-did-not-appear-extradition-kenosha-protest/5653003002/

"Rittenhouse requested to waive his presence at the hearing and for more time so that he could hire his own legal team. A hearing on the status of his extradition has been set for Sept. 25 at 9 a.m."

That makes a little more sense. Procedural delay for him to secure counsel is probably not that atypical when the entire world isn't watching and dissecting everything that's going on.

[Hards Alumni]

From jsonline:

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/08/28/kyle-rittenhouse-did-not-appear-extradition-kenosha-protest/5653003002/

"Rittenhouse requested to waive his presence at the hearing and for more time so that he could hire his own legal team. A hearing on the status of his extradition has been set for Sept. 25 at 9 a.m."

That makes a little more sense. Procedural delay for him to secure counsel is probably not that atypical when the entire world isn't watching and dissecting everything that's going on.

So we are giving a man who shot and killed two people, and wounded another a month to assemble a legal team to see if he should be arrested?

Meanwhile, another man lays paralyzed from the waist down and handcuffed to a hospital bed after being shot 7 times in the back by a police officer.

Justice in America laid bare.

[JWags85]

4) Higher standards, higher pay. The amount of training hours to become a police officer is very small.

I have no argument with more training and higher service standards, that’s very much needed and further emphasis should be given. However, higher pay really depends where you’re looking. I mentioned in a thread awhile ago, average pay, factoring in overtime, for police officers in most major cities is actually quite high. Plenty of officers, not just higher ranking officials, making easily 6 figures.  CPD has a base salary of $75K+ after 2 years, not including overtime. NYPD is close to $90K within your first 5 years.  I can’t recall MPD, but it’s not much less than Chicago.

Smaller locals have lower lay, but also lower COL. There are plenty of deterrents from people becoming law enforcement and it’s an increasingly difficult job, but compensation really isn’t top of the list.

[GB Warrior]

From jsonline:

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/08/28/kyle-rittenhouse-did-not-appear-extradition-kenosha-protest/5653003002/

"Rittenhouse requested to waive his presence at the hearing and for more time so that he could hire his own have the NRA form a legal team. A hearing on the status of his extradition has been set for Sept. 25 at 9 a.m."

That makes a little more sense. Procedural delay for him to secure counsel is probably not that atypical when the entire world isn't watching and dissecting everything that's going on.

FIFY

[jficke13]

FIFY

Per JSonline he's going to be defended by the same people who represented the Covington Catholic kid. I'm not sure that's who I'd want were in his shoes.


https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/08/27/kyle-rittenhouse-defended-fightback-foundation-kenosha-shooting-l-lin-wood-raising-money-gofundme/5650147002/

[jficke13]

So we are giving a man who shot and killed two people, and wounded another a month to assemble a legal team to see if he should be arrested?

Meanwhile, another man lays paralyzed from the waist down and handcuffed to a hospital bed after being shot 7 times in the back by a police officer.

Justice in America laid bare.

Maybe? I mean he's already been arrested and the story didn't say he'd be released pending the next court date. If anyone handles cross-state extradition hearings they could chime in, but generally getting a month or so of an adjournment in a litigation generally isn't somehow weird or atypical. My guess is a statement of "my lawyer is X and he needs time to engage with the case" in normal circumstances that aren't so charged would be met with the professional courtesy from DAs and courts of "yes, that's a reasonable request."

There are a lot of things to be upset about right now, but this procedural delay seems like it shouldn't suck the oxygen out of the room full of other more serious things that ought to occupy our attention.

[Pakuni]

So we are giving a man who shot and killed two people, and wounded another a month to assemble a legal team to see if he should be arrested?

Meanwhile, another man lays paralyzed from the waist down and handcuffed to a hospital bed after being shot 7 times in the back by a police officer.

Justice in America laid bare.

He's already been arrested and charged, and is being held in detention, where he will remain until at least his next court appearance.
The issue for now is extradition. He has the legal right to challenge  - though there's zero chance of success - and to have counsel represent him in that challenge.
Of course, had the cops in Kenosha taken him into custody Tuesday night rather than send him on his merry way, extradition wouldn't be an issue.

[dgies9156]

Protect and serve vs create revenue. Many small and very large police departments across the country incentivize revenue creation over protecting and serving the community. This of course means often times, Minority neighborhoods are targeted because they often lack the political power to fight back. Change the incentives to be how many complaints are there against a particular officer,  how many times did that officer use force. Reduction of these need to be the incentive not tickets for nonsense targeting minorities. This is a huge issue.

Boy is this one true. I call most Suburban Chicago Police "Municipal Revenue Officers," since that's their primary job. To Brother Shoothoops' point, why do you think speed cams and stoplight cams exist? The police say, "to deter violations." But in our community, the Libertyville Police set one up on Milwaukee Avenue where Libertyville is on one side and Vernon Hills on another.

If it was about enforcement and reduction in violations, the Libertyville Village Board would divide the spoils with Vernon Hills, which is on the west side of the intersection, and the State of Illinois, which actually owns and maintains Milwaukee Avenue (IL 21). Did they do that? Of course not.

In another case, I served on a jury several years ago in which an African American woman was accused of battery against a Gurnee Police officer. She and her companion were stopped in the village of Gurnee for suspicion of driving while intoxicated. When she tried to close a car door, the policeman slipped his hand between the car and door latch to keep it open so he could have reason to search the car. The door slammed on the officer's hand and the woman was arrested for battery.

The police officer was not credible. We heard the evidence and concluded, as a jury, that the woman was really charged with "Operating a Motor Vehicle in the Village of Gurnee while being black." On our way out, the questions we asked the prosecutors were, "why did you waste the taxpayers money with this ridiculous charge," and "what did you owe the Gurnee PD that was settled with this prosecution?"

It's crap like the Gurnee case that causes African-Americans and many of the rest of us to distrust the police.

[mu03eng]

Nailed it.
The suggestions by dgies, Hards and MU82 are well-thought and worthwhile, but the real problem is a cultural one. Police in many communities have for decades treated the people they serve like the enemy, and in turn those people treat police like the enemy. It's a lose-lose situation.
Scrapping it and starting over doesn't seem pragmatic or possible (or particularly popular). But I think there are some steps that can be taken to address the culture.

1. Remove incentives for negative interactions with the public. Things like ticket and arrest quotas serve no law enforcement purpose beyond filling department coffers. I don't think cops need extra incentive to arrest or cite people behaving dangerously. That's the job they want to do. Quotas simply force them to find excuses to make arrests or issue citations, or to make them when a warning or some other intervention might be the better solution.

2. End qualified immunity for police. A system that says police can rarely be held accountable for misconduct, to no one's surprise I hope, leads to police misconduct.

3. Provide more support for police officers. Being a cop is obviously an exceptionally stressful job and suicides by police have risen dramatically in recent years. And yet departments are far behind when it comes to providing officers with mental health services and other forms of support. The macho culture that says seeking help is a sign of weakness still very much exists, and cops have a very real fear that doing so will harm their reputations and long-term career prospects.

There's more, but that's a start.

Other than the immunity piece, removing the negative engagement incentive from policing is the biggest change that could be made generally (I think there are race specific changes that could be more impactful from a BLM perspective but those are more nuanced than I'm educated to articulate).

To me, this is one of the undisclosed scourges in local communities. Policing has become a funding model for local government, either to pay for itself or to help prop up the coffers for each municipality. Instead of handling finance (taxation and cost of services) in a direct format, local governments for years have been playing shell games by generating indirect funds through things like policing, fines, etc. As a second order effect of local governments not being forth wright with their citizens, police organizations have been put into situations that start as a negative engagement and then bad policing makes it worse......and we see the result.

[shoothoops]

I have no argument with more training and higher service standards, that’s very much needed and further emphasis should be given. However, higher pay really depends where you’re looking. I mentioned in a thread awhile ago, average pay, factoring in overtime, for police officers in most major cities is actually quite high. Plenty of officers, not just higher ranking officials, making easily 6 figures.  CPD has a base salary of $75K+ after 2 years, not including overtime. NYPD is close to $90K within your first 5 years.  I can’t recall MPD, but it’s not much less than Chicago.

Smaller locals have lower lay, but also lower COL. There are plenty of deterrents from people becoming law enforcement and it’s an increasingly difficult job, but compensation really isn’t top of the list.

It's included within a long list of things because in order to recruit quality you have to be and remain competitive with compensation in order to attract that quality which is what I posted. (I am aware of various police overtime practices, abuses, and scandals across the country which is a longstanding problem)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewdepietro/2020/04/23/police-officer-salary-state/

What are your specific ideas for police reform?

[mu03eng]

Early prediction:

The shooter from Tuesday night will plea out with no murder conviction or go to trial and be acquitted on murder charges. He'll plea out on lesser charges or will be convicted of less charges but murder won't be one of them. At best it'll be manslaughter.

[rocket surgeon]

wouldn't it be really informative if we could hear from someone who has experience in law enforcement?   if we have or someone has identified as such, i apologize as i haven't read over all 400 posts here.  i'm sure some of this input is nice in theory, but it's easy for any one of us to sit back here and throw "feel good" stuff out there without any real practical experience. 

[jficke13]

Early prediction:

The shooter from Tuesday night will plea out with no murder conviction or go to trial and be acquitted on murder charges. He'll plea out on lesser charges or will be convicted of less charges but murder won't be one of them. At best it'll be manslaughter.

"Manslaughter" isn't a thing in Wisconsin.

There's intentional homicide (1st or 2nd degree), which requires (I know it's obvious) intent.

"whoever causes the death of another human being with intent to kill that person or another is guilty of a Class A felony." Wis. Stat. 940.01

There's reckless homicide (1st or 2nd degree), which does not require intent.

"Whoever recklessly causes the death of another human being under circumstances which show utter disregard for human life is guilty of a Class B felony." Wis. Stat 940.02.

In common parlance, reckless homicide is Wisconsin's version of manslaughter, and Rittenhouse has been charged with 1 count of it.

Practically speaking, he's looking at a mandatory life in prison sentence for the 1st degree intentional homicide charge, and Wisconsin has one of the strictest truth in sentencing acts, so he'd have nothing to gain by pleading to that. He takes a plea on everything else and drops down off the mandatory life, and he could still breathe free air again.

We'll see.