Kenosha

[tower912]

I think I'm doing that.
I think our primary difference here is that I see the problems as internal, in that there's something toxic about our law enforcement culture that creates and enables bad cops. You seem to be pointing the finger instead at external issues, like salaries and training and the attitude of the citizenry and politicians.
I think it would be wrong to say it's exclusive one way or the other, and the external issues you cite are real. But unless you revamp the culture, addressing the external issues isn't going to fix the problem. It's like removing the tumor without treating the cancer. You need to do it, but it's not going to heal the patient.

Pakuni, we are closer than it may seem.  Using your cancer analogy, if you continue to smoke, get high doses of radiation and bathe in sludge, removing tumors won't matter.

[MU82]

In a Public Religion Research Institute poll, more than 6 in 10 Republicans said that discrimination against whites was just as big a problem as discrimination against people of color.

https://www.prri.org/research/racial-justice-2020-george-floyd/?campaign_id=56&emc=edit_cn_20200825&instance_id=21607&nl=on-politics-with-lisa-lerer&regi_id=108420427&segment_id=36909&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa

Yep, for hundreds of years now, white males just haven't been able to catch a break in America. So much holding them back. And it continues today.

I mean, Jacob Blake and Breonna Taylor had some nerve putting their bodies in front of those cops' bullets ... and shame on George Floyd for refusing to take his neck out from under Derek Chauvin's knee.

[Elonsmusk]

As of nbow, you are 100% correct.

That could change in November. If POTUS uses armed "poll watchers" as he has said he will, and then refuses to leave if he loses (he has said he won't accept the results if he loses), all bets are off. He has said the military, bikers and police will support his actions.

If (and that is a big IF) he keeps his promise, some version of a civil war may break out. If he loses and refuses to leave, that is a terrorist act of overthrowing the gov't. That is a reason to take up arms.

Let's make a wager.  IF* Trump loses, I wager he will leave office on the prescribed date.  If he doesn't, you win.  $1k wager.   You in?

That aside, from these statements, it sounds like Trump is taking a pager out of the #resist movement. 

[vogue65]

Man, you did it again. He’s not the one who even originally said what you found offensive, he edited part of it for a joke.

And you’ve managed to alienate people on both sides of the political spectrum as you’ve gotten increasingly nasty and off topic in your tone.  It’s rich that you feel you’re the most knowledgeable about what divides America as you wantonly chuck people into broad brush labeled groups and boxes and everyone who doesn’t stand up and applaud your meandering rants is deemed a sheep or something of that nature. I don’t always agree with Fluffy and some of the other people in here, but the majority of them are fair and will have reasonable conversation and cede to other’s well made points, even if it is counter to their own beliefs. Something you should give a try instead of calling others “Fashists” cause they dare disagree with you

So what, Miles Davis, BLM

[WarriorFan]

EM, you may want to hold your fire on the police unions.   Lots of them are backing your guy.

For the nth time, this discussion underscores why it is so difficult to find enough quality qualified individuals to be police officers.    Because both political sides want to label them and use them as a soccer ball when this stuff goes on.   The left goes to racism, the right to unions.   

Why in the hell would anyone want to be a cop?   Just like teachers.    Generally underfunded and underpaid.   Blamed by all sides for society's ills.

    The average cop is trying to do the right thing and go home at the end of the day.

Don't need to defund them.   Need to give them adequate numbers and different, better training.

Tower your points are very good but it's hard for me to find the unions (police, teachers, etc) as part of the solution any more.  The police unions consistently protect the bad cops and prevent a culture of individual accountability for one's actions.  They do this under the guise of "fairness" but mostly they just have more money than the counterparty so they win.  The officer in question should not only not have a job any longer, but he should be behind bars.  Only the union and the injustice it perpetuates is preventing that. 

The counter-argument I predict is that these guys need the union to "protect" them.  If you're not doing anything wrong, you don't need protection.

[vogue65]

You're not offensive.  You're just weird.  And verbose....very verbose.

I  wish.  I'm criptic, creative, unique, and have three strong suits.  A lot of experience, a body of knowledge and a vocabulary.

When you can't win a useless argument go to insults, character assination, and change of subject.
The topic is Kenosha.  Been there three times, once for a tour of the American Motors plant, before we deindustrialized the country and trashed our auto industry.

It was and is a backwater (Hope that didn't offend anyone), then and now.

We have real problems with small cities that were former industrial centers, places like Kenosha.

Off the top of my verbose head are, Gary, Richmond, Hartford, Erie, Harrisburg, Newark, St. Louis, Flint, Youngstown, New Britain,  Akron, Syracuse, Trenton, Bridgeport,  Birmingham, Rockford, etc..  If something doesn't change they will blow up.  There are hundreds of them, and every one has a large minority population.

Think big, think strategically, think the future,  if you can.

They have been left behind by corporate America, Wall Street.  Wall Street does not care about black people, poor people, sick people ( unless they can take over a hospital and sell stock) or run a insurance scam.

[vogue65]

I wasn’t offended by that “insult” except maybe how brutally you spelled it, repeatedly, unless you’re referring to defunct limited circulation Russian periodicals.

So what, you got the message.
What did so offend you?
Man up, be specific.  I  can take it.
FACSIST for those offended.

[tower912]

The counter-argument I predict is that these guys need the union to "protect" them.  If you're not doing anything wrong, you don't need protection.

I have seen the opposite in person. 


 I have also sat in meetings where the chief says that (X) should be fired.   The union president agrees the guy is worthless, tells the chief to go through the processes for progressive discipline leading to dismissal.  The chief decides to not pursue it.   Not because the union wanted to protect the guy.   Because they want agreed upon procedures followed.

[rocky_warrior]

Brother Pakuni, of course I would feel the same regardless of who was injured. The Due Process clauses contained in the 5th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America is the basis of my concern. In both cases, the Constitution says, "No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." The 14th Amendment says, "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

If the circumstances were reversed, I would expect NOTHING different. When a District Attorney brings charges against a citizen, I would expect them to be well-researched and well-documented by provable facts. If it takes time, so be it!

The differences in circumstances is the privilege of being a police officer.

Now, to start with, I get that there is a need to protect police officers from getting charged due to "normal policing duties".

But if I and 2 friends were to hold someone at gunpoint, and shoot them in the back while we though he was reaching for a gun, we'd be arrested, and held in jail.  Was it self defense.  Maybe - but maybe there was no gun, then I'm f*cked.

The police do it, and they get to go home and have some beers "on leave", hoping there's enough evidence to say "yeah, but he was dangerous". 

[Lennys Tap]

The differences in circumstances is the privilege of being a police officer.

Now, to start with, I get that there is a need to protect police officers from getting charged due to "normal policing duties".

But if I and 2 friends were to hold someone at gunpoint, and shoot them in the back while we though he was reaching for a gun, we'd be arrested, and held in jail.  Was it self defense.  Maybe - but maybe there was no gun, then I'm f*cked.

The police do it, and they get to go home and have some beers "on leave", hoping there's enough evidence to say "yeah, but he was dangerous".

Rocky

The gist of your post is true.

But I’m nonetheless grateful that no family members or anyone I’m close to is a cop. I wouldn’t wish that “privilege” on anyone.

[wadesworld]

“Protests shouldn’t turn into looting.”

Sure. You know what else shouldn’t happen? Arrests shouldn’t turn into murders.

[WarriorFan]

Well said Doc...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhqKda79Lys

[rocky_warrior]

But I’m nonetheless grateful that no family members or anyone I’m close to is a cop. I wouldn’t wish that “privilege” on anyone.

It's certainly a challenging profession.  One that straddles the impossible line of peace keeper and rules keeper.  Like a HR professional with a gun.  Just try not to have had that "oh shoot, I f*cked up" day while discharging their weapon.

[rocky_warrior]

Interesting read on the challenge of bringing cops to justice, not even considering racial issues in policing:
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-police-immunity-scotus/

[jficke13]

Things did not get better overnight.

[vogue65]

I have seen the opposite in person. 


 I have also sat in meetings where the chief says that (X) should be fired.   The union president agrees the guy is worthless, tells the chief to go through the processes for progressive discipline leading to dismissal.  The chief decides to not pursue it.   Not because the union wanted to protect the guy.   Because they want agreed upon procedures followed.

In the federal government everyone is on two year probation.
The selection criteria of cops is flawed.

Job description, bad attitude, tough guy or gal with a chip on your shoulder, not too smart, h.s. football or wresteling, NRA member and fasination with guns and pickup trucks.  Perhaps a Harley would help.  Skinhead hair cut also helps.

[Pakuni]

@espn: “We keep loving this country and this country doesn’t love us back.”

Doc Rivers got emotional while talking about Jacob Blake being shot by police and social injustice. https://twitter.com/espn/status/1298476250709635072/video/1

[Marquette Gyros]

I  wish.  I'm criptic, creative, unique, and have three strong suits.  A lot of experience, a body of knowledge and a vocabulary.

When you can't win a useless argument go to insults, character assination, and change of subject.
The topic is Kenosha.  Been there three times, once for a tour of the American Motors plant, before we deindustrialized the country and trashed our auto industry.

It was and is a backwater (Hope that didn't offend anyone), then and now.

We have real problems with small cities that were former industrial centers, places like Kenosha.

Off the top of my verbose head are, Gary, Richmond, Hartford, Erie, Harrisburg, Newark, St. Louis, Flint, Youngstown, New Britain,  Akron, Syracuse, Trenton, Bridgeport,  Birmingham, Rockford, etc..  If something doesn't change they will blow up.  There are hundreds of them, and every one has a laege minority population.

Think big, think strategically, think the future,  if you can.

They have been left behind by corporate America, Wall Street.  Wall Street does not care about black people, poor people, sick people ( unless they can take over a hospital and sell stock) or run a insurance scam.

That’s an accurate and heartbreaking list.

People from St. Louis will argue and tell you Chicago should be included. Hartford and Richmond may not belong but we’re splitting hairs at this point.

Adding Benton Harbor, Toledo, Waterloo IA, Joliet, Memphis... Industry left and then COVID & the response decimated the service economies.

“Learn to code” classes aren’t nearly enough... what is the plan?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I mean, Kenosha has its issues no doubt, but it is hardly like Rockford or Youngstown.  Its growing to the point where it will soon overtake Green Bay as the third largest city in Wisconsin.

[mu_hilltopper]

Question:  Has there been any official city/police release of information about the sequence of events leading up to and including the shooting itself?

All I've found is community reports.

Any links?

[🏀]

Question:  Has there been any official city/police release of information about the sequence of events leading up to and including the shooting itself?

All I've found is community reports.

Any links?

[🏀]

There's video of both separate shootings, not great Bob.

[Pakuni]

Question:  Has there been any official city/police release of information about the sequence of events leading up to and including the shooting itself?

All I've found is community reports.

Any links?

This is the police department's only official statement on the Jacob Blake shooting:

Update: Kenosha Officer Involved Shooting
KENOSHA, Wis. – The Wisconsin Department of Justice (DOJ) Division of Criminal Investigation (DCI) is investigating an officer involved shooting (OIS) in Kenosha, Wis. that occurred on the evening of Sunday, August 23, 2020.
The shooting occurred when Kenosha police officers responded to a reported domestic incident in the 2800 block of 40th Street.
Law enforcement immediately provided medical aid to the person who was shot. Flight for Life transported the person to Froedtert Hospital in Milwaukee. The person is in serious condition.
DCI is leading this investigation and is assisted by Wisconsin State Patrol and Kenosha County Sheriff’s Office. All involved law enforcement are fully cooperating with DCI during this investigation. The involved officers have been placed on administrative leave.
DCI is continuing to review evidence and determine the facts of this incident and will turn over investigative reports to a prosecutor following a complete and thorough investigation.
If members of the public have any further information regarding this incident, please contact law enforcement.
When DCI is the lead investigating agency of a shooting involving a law enforcement officer, DCI aims to provide a report of the incident to the prosecutor within 30 days. The prosecutor then reviews the report and makes a determination about what charges, if any, are appropriate. If the prosecutor determines there is no basis for prosecution of the law enforcement officer, DCI will thereafter make the report available to the public.
There has been speculation on social media about the identities of those involved in this incident. The public is advised to await identifying information from an official source.
No additional details are currently available.
Please direct all media inquiries regarding this incident to DOJ.

[MU82]

Interesting read on the challenge of bringing cops to justice, not even considering racial issues in policing:
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-police-immunity-scotus/

Very interesting, albeit sobering, article. Thanks for posting.

[rocket surgeon]

I mean, Kenosha has its issues no doubt, but it is hardly like Rockford or Youngstown.  Its growing to the point where it will soon overtake Green Bay as the third largest city in Wisconsin.

so what...what is happening in kenosha could happen anywhere if the circumstances provided for it.  if the unfortunate incident between kenosha police and jacob blake or george floyd in minneapolis for that matter were to have happened in "bumble city" the reactions would be similar.  this does not reflect directly on kenosha as there are many many good people there.  it has become the new "ground zero" for a political movement and people are coming in from all over the country