Kenosha

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

Yes.   BLM exists because unarmed black people keep getting shot by police.      Police unions exist to make sure their members are treated fairly and are protected from frivolous, false, or politically motivated punishments.     

So, stop shooting unarmed black people.     

Punish to the utmost those who do.   

Recognize that every single move you make is now being recorded and there will be accountability.     

Think. 

Don't attack cops over nonsense.     Don't turn something small into something big.   

Yeah I'm not sure about that regarding the police unions.

Yes, Vanity Fair leans a certain direction but consider direct quotes.

https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2020/08/americas-brotherhood-of-police-officers

[vogue65]

You don't converse.  You don't invite people to engage in conversation.  You pontificate and label.  And quote people out of context as part of it.

Sorry, I didn't realize that pontificating was a sin.  Where did you get that big word?  It's a nice put down word.   I  have a list I use with lawyers.

I was on K street with high priced corporate lawyers and my lawyer, the Justice Department.
I was amazed how juvenile, petty, irrevelant, and insulting, they were.

Then I went to lunch with a lawyer friend and asked him how he deals with d**k lawyers.  He said he responds in kind.  What a profession.

Topic is pontificateing, right?    Try it you may like it.

Labels must be another sin.  Bully, thug, trouble maker, lier, narcissistic personality disorder, what have I  Ieft out?  How about control freek, Fashist, provacture, loser, stiff?  How about blowhard, know nothing, adulterer, pedifile, con-man?  In my day, draft dodger,  civil rights activist, or community organizer might apply to some.

Do any of those labels fit anyone you know?

[GooooMarquette]

You, Fluffy, 4Never and Dgies trying to have a civil discourse (about the only ones on this thread).

Vogue needs to get back on his meds.

I need more popcorn bacon.

FIFY

[vogue65]

FIFY

Very insulting, not funny, small minded, cruel and insensitive, but you are welcome to your opinion.  People who take meds. and those who should, should not be the butt of civilized peoples discourse.

I have an idea, put me on ignore and I won't bother you anymore, you can stay with like "minded" people.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

https://twitter.com/KunkleFredrick/status/1298344285079838720?s=20

Dear white people.  You're not helping.

[tower912]

Yeah I'm not sure about that regarding the police unions.

Yes, Vanity Fair leans a certain direction but consider direct quotes.

https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2020/08/americas-brotherhood-of-police-officers

Yes.    And...   

The citadel mindset comes from feeling attacked from all sides.    It is easy to paint with a broad brush and say 'white guys'.     But, like in most cases, there are many elements.    I am by no means defending the indefensible actions of some unions and union leaders.    And I think the 'us vs. them' mindset is no way to go through life.     Sports teams for a season, sure.     Your entire life, no.     But I also know, from speaking to my police brethren on a daily basis, that they feel the pressure from all sides.    From the R's who want them to be the thick blue line, but want their pay, their benefits, and their pensions.     

From the poor communities that don't trust them, won't give them information to help solve the crimes, and yet still want them to perform miracles.

From the cities that don't want to hire enough of them, don't want to spend the money on community policing,  don't want to pay to actually get them the kind of training that would help prevent some of these things,  play games with overtime,  and yet expect miracles.   

These men and women are human.    Sometimes they f up.   Immeasurably.      And people who are feeling overworked, stressed, scapegoated, and besieged f up more.   

Sadly, lately, the f-ing up is huge, public, unforgivable, with massive consequences. 

And all of these things are why more people aren't trying to be cops. 

[vogue65]

Black people are consistently being deprived of life (and liberty) consistently without the due process of law.

Because?
The union contract.
The blue line.
The police culture.
The training or lack there of.
The hiring of thugs.
Poor police tactics.
The patrol manual.
Glock automatic pistols, which are advertised "turning a hand gun into a machine gun".
And then we have legal mumbo jumbo, due process, probable cause, use of force policy, change of venue, and the all time best " he was fearful for his life" so he shot the mother in the back, right.

[JWags85]

Very insulting, not funny, small minded, cruel and insensitive, but you are welcome to your opinion.  People who take meds. and those who should, should not be the butt of civilized peoples discourse.

I have an idea, put me on ignore and I won't bother you anymore, you can stay with like "minded" people.

Man, you did it again. He’s not the one who even originally said what you found offensive, he edited part of it for a joke.

And you’ve managed to alienate people on both sides of the political spectrum as you’ve gotten increasingly nasty and off topic in your tone.  It’s rich that you feel you’re the most knowledgeable about what divides America as you wantonly chuck people into broad brush labeled groups and boxes and everyone who doesn’t stand up and applaud your meandering rants is deemed a sheep or something of that nature. I don’t always agree with Fluffy and some of the other people in here, but the majority of them are fair and will have reasonable conversation and cede to other’s well made points, even if it is counter to their own beliefs. Something you should give a try instead of calling others “Fashists” cause they dare disagree with you

[vogue65]

Yes.    And...   

The citadel mindset comes from feeling attacked from all sides.    It is easy to paint with a broad brush and say 'white guys'.     But, like in most cases, there are many elements.    I am by no means defending the indefensible actions of some unions and union leaders.    And I think the 'us vs. them' mindset is no way to go through life.     Sports teams for a season, sure.     Your entire life, no.     But I also know, from speaking to by police brethren on a daily basis, that they feel the pressure from all sides.    From the R's who want them to be the thick blue line, but want their pay, their benefits, and their pensions.     

From the poor communities that don't trust them, won't give them information to help solve the crimes, and yet still want them to perform miracles.

From the cities that don't want to hire enough of them, don't want to spend the money on community policing,  don't want to pay to actually get them the kind of training that would help prevent some of these things,  play games with overtime,  and yet expect miracles.   

These men and women are human.    Sometimes they f up.   Immeasurably.      And people who are feeling overworked, stressed, scapegoated, and besieged f up more.   

Sadly, lately, the f-ing up is huge, public, unforgivable, with massive consequences. 

And all of these things are why more people aren't trying to be cops.

The Citadel, been there, a very strange place.

Seriously, great essay on the problem, who will present a solution?

Only the winner of the demographic dilemma.

[Pakuni]

Yes.    And...   

The citadel mindset comes from feeling attacked from all sides.    It is easy to paint with a broad brush and say 'white guys'.     But, like in most cases, there are many elements.    I am by no means defending the indefensible actions of some unions and union leaders.    And I think the 'us vs. them' mindset is no way to go through life.     Sports teams for a season, sure.     Your entire life, no.     But I also know, from speaking to by police brethren on a daily basis, that they feel the pressure from all sides.    From the R's who want them to be the thick blue line, but want their pay, their benefits, and their pensions.     

From the poor communities that don't trust them, won't give them information to help solve the crimes, and yet still want them to perform miracles.

From the cities that don't want to hire enough of them, don't want to spend the money on community policing,  don't want to pay to actually get them the kind of training that would help prevent some of these things,  play games with overtime,  and yet expect miracles.   

These men and women are human.    Sometimes they f up.   Immeasurably.      And people who are feeling overworked, stressed, scapegoated, and besieged f up more.   

Sadly, lately, the f-ing up is huge, public, unforgivable, with massive consequences. 

And all of these things are why more people aren't trying to be cops.

Your empathy is truly admirable, tower, but I think in your desire to be empathetic you're ignoring some of the real issues behind bad policing in this country.

What you say about stress, unrealistic expectations and substandard training is true. These are legitimate problems and legitimate grievances in the law enforcement community. But what happened in Kenosha and Minneapolis and Louisville and God knows how many other places wasn't a result of the public expecting too much of cops, or overtime schedules, or salaries. They weren't the result of poor training or a lack of community support.
These "f ups," as you euphemistically call them, were a result of officers who willfully ignored their training and chose to abuse their authority. Not an "f up" but a malicious misuse of the power we the public give them. And that, I believe, is borne out of a jacked up "us vs them"  law enforcement culture that too often encourages that kind of abuse and fails to punish the perpetrators.
Pulling over the wrong person because you were tired and misread a warrant is a law enforcement mistake. Kneeling on a person's neck for 9 minutes until they die or busting down a door and fatally shooting a sleeping woman is not merely human error.

This by no means is to say all cops are bad or abuse their authority, of course. The great majority do not. But the culture of law enforcement enables and encourages the bad actors.
And until we address those cultural issues, all the salary hikes, pension benefits and 'attaboys' from the community aren't going to make a bit of difference.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

And you’ve managed to alienate people on both sides of the political spectrum as you’ve gotten increasingly nasty and off topic in your tone. 

Some could even say its intentional....

[vogue65]

Man, you did it again. He’s not the one who even originally said what you found offensive, he edited part of it for a joke.

And you’ve managed to alienate people on both sides of the political spectrum as you’ve gotten increasingly nasty and off topic in your tone.  It’s rich that you feel you’re the most knowledgeable about what divides America as you wantonly chuck people into broad brush labeled groups and boxes and everyone who doesn’t stand up and applaud your meandering rants is deemed a sheep or something of that nature. I don’t always agree with Fluffy and some of the other people in here, but the majority of them are fair and will have reasonable conversation and cede to other’s well made points, even if it is counter to their own beliefs. Something you should give a try instead of calling others “Fashists” cause they dare disagree with you

I called nobody a Fashist, although perhaps I should.
If people on both sides are alienated, I must be in the middle, thanks for the complement.
Isn't left/right itself a broad brush label?
Without my style this becomes a very boring place.
Fashists don't disagree with me, they have a world view, a philosophy, that has nearly brought down the world once.
Interesting that from my long list of insults you take offence at Fashist.
If you think I'm nasty you have not heard anything yet, ha.

[vogue65]

Some could even say its intentional....

Hay smart guy, you haven't noticed tha I'm not on either side of your divide, I'm a retired technocrat.  We sound intentionally offensive to a lot of people because we deal in real fact, real solutions, in a world where problems are solved.  We don't sugar coat, find fault, make up laws, insult people with thin skin.
It is not a toxic environment, like happens around here JBTL.
BLM

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Hay smart guy, you haven't noticed tha I'm not on either side of your divide, I'm a retired technocrat.  We sound intentionally offensive to a lot of people because we deal in real fact, real solutions, in a world where problems are solved.  We don't sugar coat, find fault, make up laws, insult people with thin skin.
It is not a toxic environment, like happens around here JBTL.
BLM

You're not offensive.  You're just weird.  And verbose....very verbose.

[vogue65]

Man, you did it again. He’s not the one who even originally said what you found offensive, he edited part of it for a joke.

And you’ve managed to alienate people on both sides of the political spectrum as you’ve gotten increasingly nasty and off topic in your tone.  It’s rich that you feel you’re the most knowledgeable about what divides America as you wantonly chuck people into broad brush labeled groups and boxes and everyone who doesn’t stand up and applaud your meandering rants is deemed a sheep or something of that nature. I don’t always agree with Fluffy and some of the other people in here, but the majority of them are fair and will have reasonable conversation and cede to other’s well made points, even if it is counter to their own beliefs. Something you should give a try instead of calling others “Fashists” cause they dare disagree with you

Life is short, for me, no time for nice, nice.
I only offend the guilty.
The great comentators don't need my acalades, the conversation get's broadened without talking points.
You won't hear talking points from me.

[tower912]

Pakuni, punish the bad actors.   Each and every one of them to the fullest extent of the law.   They fd up.    Like any other murderer, give them their due process.   If found guilty, send them away.   Their punishment awaits.

But look at the big picture how we got here.   Like any other major catastrophe, it isn't because of only one thing.

[JWags85]

I called nobody a Fashist, although perhaps I should.
If people on both sides are alienated, I must be in the middle, thanks for the complement.
Isn't left/right itself a broad brush label?
Without my style this becomes a very boring place.
Fashists don't disagree with me, they have a world view, a philosophy, that has nearly brought down the world once.
Interesting that from my long list of insults you take offence at Fashist.
If you think I'm nasty you have not heard anything yet, ha.

I wasn’t offended by that “insult” except maybe how brutally you spelled it, repeatedly, unless you’re referring to defunct limited circulation Russian periodicals.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

More systemic racism ...

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/banking/article245233685.html?

Wells Fargo will pay $7.8 million in back wages to settle accusations from the federal government that it discriminated against tens of thousands of Black and female job applicants, the U.S. Department of Labor said.

Sexism, too -- two for the price of one!

Man, WFC has been such a clusterunnatural carnal knowledge. What a culture they had there.

[GooooMarquette]

Man, you did it again. He’s not the one who even originally said what you found offensive, he edited part of it for a joke.

And you’ve managed to alienate people on both sides of the political spectrum as you’ve gotten increasingly nasty and off topic in your tone.  It’s rich that you feel you’re the most knowledgeable about what divides America as you wantonly chuck people into broad brush labeled groups and boxes and everyone who doesn’t stand up and applaud your meandering rants is deemed a sheep or something of that nature. I don’t always agree with Fluffy and some of the other people in here, but the majority of them are fair and will have reasonable conversation and cede to other’s well made points, even if it is counter to their own beliefs. Something you should give a try instead of calling others “Fashists” cause they dare disagree with you

Yep.

[Pakuni]

But look at the big picture how we got here.   Like any other major catastrophe, it isn't because of only one thing.

I think I'm doing that.
I think our primary difference here is that I see the problems as internal, in that there's something toxic about our law enforcement culture that creates and enables bad cops. You seem to be pointing the finger instead at external issues, like salaries and training and the attitude of the citizenry and politicians.
I think it would be wrong to say it's exclusive one way or the other, and the external issues you cite are real. But unless you revamp the culture, addressing the external issues isn't going to fix the problem. It's like removing the tumor without treating the cancer. You need to do it, but it's not going to heal the patient.

[Johnny B]

https://twitter.com/KunkleFredrick/status/1298344285079838720?s=20

Dear white people.  You're not helping.

dont generalize

[Jockey]

Cmon....

My points came from trump's words. They were not speculation on my part.


In a phone interview with Sean Hannity on Fox News during the Democratic National Convention, Trump was asked if he planned to have poll watchers on Election Day with the "ability to monitor, to avoid fraud and cross check whether or not these are registered voters, whether or not there's been identification to know if it's a real vote from a real American?"

Trump said, "We're going to have everything. We're going to have sheriffs and law enforcement and we're going to have, hopefully, U.S. attorneys, and we're going to have everybody, and attorney generals, but it's very hard."



"I can tell you I have the support of the police, the support of the military, the support of the Bikers for Trump – I have the tough people, but they don’t play it tough — until they go to a certain point, and then it would be very bad, very bad," Trump said.



Trump refused to commit to accepting the results of the 2020 election and ensuring a peaceful transition of power in an interview with "Fox News Sunday" host Chris Wallace. In the interview, Trump undermined confidence in the result of the 2020 election by falsely claiming that mail-in ballots are "rigged," and opened the door to later contesting the results if he loses to Democratic nominee Joe Biden.

"In general, not talking about November, are you a good loser?" Wallace asked. "I'm not a good loser, I don't like to lose, I don't lose too often" Trump replied.

"But are you gracious?" Wallace pressed. "You don't know until you see, I think it depends. I think mail-in voting is going to rig the election," Trump said. "I really do."

"But are you suggesting you might not accept the results of the election?" Wallace continued. "I have to see," Trump said.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

dont generalize

Lol.

[wadesworld]

Why do many people spend 2 days celebrating first Kobe’s birthday and then “Kobe Day,” while at the same time many people try to excuse the murder of an unarmed black man because he has a criminal record and/or abused a woman? Did Kobe not commit the exact same crime? The difference between Kobe and Blake was Kobe could put a basketball through a rim better and thus had the money to make it go away.

Not in any way celebrating Kobe’s death or saying he deserved to die in a helicopter accident. It’s tragic his kids and wife will have a life without him. But we treat the guy like he was a great human being and then say Jacob Blake was a bad person so what do you expect?

[Jockey]

Pakuni, punish the bad actors.   Each and every one of them to the fullest extent of the law.   They fd up.    Like any other murderer, give them their due process.   If found guilty, send them away.   Their punishment awaits.

But look at the big picture how we got here.   Like any other major catastrophe, it isn't because of only one thing.

Tower, you and Pakuni both make good points, but we need to make sure that this isn't looked at as a 2020 phenomenon. Police have been murdering blacks in America for hundreds of years.

I abhor the violence and looting, but I understand it. Nothing else has stemmed the tides of racial injustice. It is caused by a desperation that has festered for generations.

I just got home from Kenosha - where I lived until I was 25 years old. It broke my heart to see mile after mile of buildings boarded up, cement barriers and large trucks blocking public access on main roads, and a police presence everywhere.

I ache for the country to have a leader who can call on people to be our best selves, who tries to reach our souls calling for peace. But that ship has sailed.