NFL Thread 2019-2020

[jficke13]

It's always an interesting discussion when it comes to public money going toward stadiums.

On the one hand, it's never easy to justify giving hundreds of millions of dollars (or more) toward a stadium or arena for a team owned by a billionaire. There isn't a single city in which those funds wouldn't have been more useful elsewhere.

On the other hand, it's simply the way the game is played now. With very few exceptions (and there have been a few, thankfully), if you want to keep your team, you have to play ball with the billionaire. So you have to decide, "Do we want to be a 'major-league city' or not?" If you decide to let the team go, that's OK, that's your decision, but will you regret it forever? If you decide that the team is a major part of your city's "psyche" or "worth," then you'll have to play the game and pony up.

When I was in Minneapolis, the owner of the North Stars wanted a few million dollars to connect Met Center to the new Mall of America. The state and city of Bloomington told him no, so he moved the team to Dallas. And a few years later, the state paid up big-time to bring an expansion team to St. Paul. So they sure showed that North Stars' owner, who became even richer in Dallas.

Sometimes a city (or state) doesn't realize how important a franchise is until it's gone. But it's certainly understandable to not want to hand zillions to a zillionaire. We might be facing the same difficult choice here with the Panthers within a few short years.

I know that the Miller Park tax was controversial and cost some legislators their jobs, but I 100% back a defined tax to support the building of that stadium (and would have done the same for the Fiserv). By way of a relatively small sales tax I pay some amount every year toward getting to have the Brewers in Milwaukee, and that's fine with me because I use the stadium and value having the team in the city. In the case of the Miller Park tax it was a new tax, so it wasn't exactly like they were taking out of a tight budget where the funds could have gone elsewhere (though I suppose they could have raised the tax to go to the general revenue and told the Brewers to pay for their own stadium, but that wasn't really in discussion I don't think).

I don't recall how all of the financing discussions went in other cities, mainly because I don't have that much cause to follow the intricacies of St. Louis' negotiations with the Rams (for example), but it always seems to me that there ought to be a mutually-beneficial ground to be found, rather than the Deadspin (RIP) take of "All Public Financing EVIL" vs Owners "All Public Financing Necessary" zero sum game.

[Billy Hoyle]

Yep. Just go get yourself a Lamar Jackson.

but your Lamar Jackson has to stay healthy.  Cam Newton was able to survive many of the massive hits on him because of his size but eventually (thanks to officials looking the other way and letting Cam be absolutely abused), he broke down  RGIII had one good year before he was done as a starter.  Also, if the teams meet again Belicheck will gameplan specifically for what he saw from Jackson and likely slow him down significantly.

[DegenerateDish]

It won't happen, but the Chargers should move to Chicago. I say this below knowing it'll never happen.

There's a story out there that there's an unnamed person who has a standing offer to the McCaskey family for $4 billion for the Bears. Whoever this person is, should I offer $3 billion to Spanos, and then work with the city of Arlington Heights to buy the racetrack, and figure out a way to build a dome there. Yes, the Chargers would always be the stepchild to the Bears, but I always thought Chicago could support two NFL teams, and a smart and innovative owner would put the Bears ownership to shame in this market.

[Silkk the Shaka]

It won't happen, but the Chargers should move to Chicago. I say this below knowing it'll never happen.

There's a story out there that there's an unnamed person who has a standing offer to the McCaskey family for $4 billion for the Bears. Whoever this person is, should I offer $3 billion to Spanos, and then work with the city of Arlington Heights to buy the racetrack, and figure out a way to build a dome there. Yes, the Chargers would always be the stepchild to the Bears, but I always thought Chicago could support two NFL teams, and a smart and innovative owner would put the Bears ownership to shame in this market.

I like it

[MU82]

Agree with both jficke and Sultan on the whole stadium issue.

but your Lamar Jackson has to stay healthy.  Cam Newton was able to survive many of the massive hits on him because of his size but eventually (thanks to officials looking the other way and letting Cam be absolutely abused), he broke down  RGIII had one good year before he was done as a starter.

Also agree with this. It's great to get a mobile QB until he can no longer be effective as a mobile QB. Still, the Panthers did get 7 mostly outstanding seasons from Cam, including an MVP/Super Bowl season and 3 division titles. But I don't think I'd ever get a smaller QB with the intention of asking him to run the ball 10-15 times a game. Jackson is quite a bit bigger than RG3 and a couple others, but obviously not as big as Cam. And of course, no matter how big you are, your head can still get cracked open and your knee ligaments are no stronger.

It won't happen, but the Chargers should move to Chicago. I say this below knowing it'll never happen.

There's a story out there that there's an unnamed person who has a standing offer to the McCaskey family for $4 billion for the Bears. Whoever this person is, should I offer $3 billion to Spanos, and then work with the city of Arlington Heights to buy the racetrack, and figure out a way to build a dome there. Yes, the Chargers would always be the stepchild to the Bears, but I always thought Chicago could support two NFL teams, and a smart and innovative owner would put the Bears ownership to shame in this market.

I remember when I was in Chicago there was talk about bringing in another NFL team. It never went anywhere, obviously, and it was seen as a hollow threat to make taxpayers pony up for money to re-do Soldier's Field (my friend). I agree with you that it will never happen.

Jeesh ... I'm sure agreeable today!

[Pakuni]

It won't happen, but the Chargers should move to Chicago. I say this below knowing it'll never happen.

There's a story out there that there's an unnamed person who has a standing offer to the McCaskey family for $4 billion for the Bears. Whoever this person is, should I offer $3 billion to Spanos, and then work with the city of Arlington Heights to buy the racetrack, and figure out a way to build a dome there. Yes, the Chargers would always be the stepchild to the Bears, but I always thought Chicago could support two NFL teams, and a smart and innovative owner would put the Bears ownership to shame in this market.

Interesting, but the Bears would fight it tooth and nail and I imagine they'd get enough old-school owners to side with them to block that. Also, I think the league would much prefer opening up a new market, i.e. London, Portland, than double up in an existing market.

[Pakuni]

QB news ..
- Cam placed on IR. Season over.
- Foles in, Minshew out in Jacksonville.

[Pakuni]

Chargers response to London rumors:

https://twitter.com/Chargers/status/1191794254294634496

[JWags85]

Chargers response to London rumors:

https://twitter.com/Chargers/status/1191794254294634496

Considering they just left SD, probably not the best choice of meme.

Also agree with this. It's great to get a mobile QB until he can no longer be effective as a mobile QB. Still, the Panthers did get 7 mostly outstanding seasons from Cam, including an MVP/Super Bowl season and 3 division titles. But I don't think I'd ever get a smaller QB with the intention of asking him to run the ball 10-15 times a game. Jackson is quite a bit bigger than RG3 and a couple others, but obviously not as big as Cam. And of course, no matter how big you are, your head can still get cracked open and your knee ligaments are no stronger.

I think a better comp for Jackson is Vick, who except for the year he broke his leg in the preseason, was fairly healthy most of his career until his 30s, free of the injuries that normally plague mobile QBs. 

Cam is built like a TE so he welcomed hits and used his brute force and size to his advantage, Jackson by and large does not.  Also, beyond any size differences, Shanahan had no idea what to do with RG3 and let him get brutalized and further played him on injuries he should have not.  His whole time in Washington was a baffling comedy of errors as far as he was concerned.  Harbaugh and Greg Roman seem to know what they are doing with Jackson and I imagine the outcome is different.

[MU82]

Considering they just left SD, probably not the best choice of meme.
I think a better comp for Jackson is Vick, who except for the year he broke his leg in the preseason, was fairly healthy most of his career until his 30s, free of the injuries that normally plague mobile QBs. 

Cam is built like a TE so he welcomed hits and used his brute force and size to his advantage, Jackson by and large does not.  Also, beyond any size differences, Shanahan had no idea what to do with RG3 and let him get brutalized and further played him on injuries he should have not.  His whole time in Washington was a baffling comedy of errors as far as he was concerned.  Harbaugh and Greg Roman seem to know what they are doing with Jackson and I imagine the outcome is different.

I like that comparison, JW. If he is used smartly -- and, of course, if he is a little lucky -- there is no reason Jackson has to be a cautionary tale waiting to happen.

Jackson is similar in size to great running QBs like Vick, Steve Young and Roger Staubach, all of whom avoided serious injuries for most of their careers.

You're also right about Newton. He took a ton of hits, many of which he initiated. There has never been a QB like him, and who knows when another like him will come along.

[Cheeks]

It's always an interesting discussion when it comes to public money going toward stadiums.

On the one hand, it's never easy to justify giving hundreds of millions of dollars (or more) toward a stadium or arena for a team owned by a billionaire. There isn't a single city in which those funds wouldn't have been more useful elsewhere.

On the other hand, it's simply the way the game is played now. With very few exceptions (and there have been a few, thankfully), if you want to keep your team, you have to play ball with the billionaire. So you have to decide, "Do we want to be a 'major-league city' or not?" If you decide to let the team go, that's OK, that's your decision, but will you regret it forever? If you decide that the team is a major part of your city's "psyche" or "worth," then you'll have to play the game and pony up.

When I was in Minneapolis, the owner of the North Stars wanted a few million dollars to connect Met Center to the new Mall of America. The state and city of Bloomington told him no, so he moved the team to Dallas. And a few years later, the state paid up big-time to bring an expansion team to St. Paul. So they sure showed that North Stars' owner, who became even richer in Dallas.

Sometimes a city (or state) doesn't realize how important a franchise is until it's gone. But it's certainly understandable to not want to hand zillions to a zillionaire. We might be facing the same difficult choice here with the Panthers within a few short years.

LA’s newest stadium is privately financed.  Opens next year.  As was Staples center last decade. 

Cities are so nervous about losing their “major league” status that the pols and citizens can’t wait to throw money at them.  I feel sorry for San Diego, but I t remains a fine city with our without the Chargers. 

[MU82]

And speaking of Newton ...

Officially done for the season.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nfl/carolina-panthers/article236983355.html?

Actually, he theoretically could come back for the playoffs, but ... yeah right.

I'm guessing that his Panthers career is over, too, especially if Kyle Allen continues playing as he has much of his time as starter. The Panthers can save a ton of $$ on the salary cap by cutting him, and if they keep him they pretty much would have to extend his contract at a ridiculous salary.

It will be interesting to see what Cam will be worth on the open market. I would think he would have to prove to teams that he is healthy, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Even then, a lot of hard miles on that QB machine.

I have enjoyed watching Newton, truly a unique athlete, tough competitor and exciting performer. At his best, there were few players more valuable to his team, as he carried the load both via the pass and run, and set the tone for an entire franchise.

He arrived as a spoiled brat who would mope after losses, but he matured into a team leader, winner and MVP. Very giving with his time and money in the community. Folks here still "dab," which he popularized a few years ago, and numerous teams/players around the league follow his lead of giving the football to a fan after a TD.

Sad to see a fine career (at least the Panthers chapter of it) end like this.

[Pakuni]

LA’s newest stadium is privately financed.  Opens next year.  As was Staples center last decade. 

The Rams stadium is unique due to multiple tenants and attached amenities that together are valued at more than the stadium itself. That circumstance isn't likely to be replicated elsewhere.
Also, while privately financed, Kroenke is getting tax incentives that have been valued at as much as $180 million, so it's not without public money.
It's a far better deal than most - Vegas, for example - but there's definitely tax dollars going to Kroenke here.

[MU82]

The Rams stadium is unique due to multiple tenants and attached amenities that together are valued at more than the stadium itself. That circumstance isn't likely to be replicated elsewhere.
Also, while privately financed, Kroenke is getting tax incentives that have been valued at as much as $180 million, so it's not without public money.
It's a far better deal than most - Vegas, for example - but there's definitely tax dollars going to Kroenke here.

There have been a few others similar to this. United Center was privately financed. I think the new Warriors' digs, too. Again, all got incentives from the government (taxpayers), but they still were more favorable to taxpayers than most.

The thing about these rare deals is that most were in cities in which it was highly unlikely the teams would walk, therefore they had less leverage. I mean, the Bulls and Blackhawks weren't gonna leave Chicago ... and even in the .01% chance they did, they would have been replaced immediately by the NBA/NHL.

[DegenerateDish]

Interesting, but the Bears would fight it tooth and nail and I imagine they'd get enough old-school owners to side with them to block that. Also, I think the league would much prefer opening up a new market, i.e. London, Portland, than double up in an existing market.

Yes, you're absolutely right it would never happen because the McCaskey family, while not a highly political player in the NFL landscape, carries an enormous amount of respect and support from the old blood owners (Giants/Lions/Steelers).

I've always thought though if a smart owner came along and viewed Chicago with media rights deals, putting a domed stadium in the right spot (honestly, Arlington Park is the best spot I can think of with highway access/train access, land is designed to host traffic/events). Of course I say this as someone who lives in Elgin and doesn't want to drive to the city and then go sit through 3 hours of cold/wind in December.

I know it'll never happen, but I always thought the NFL never looked at the idea of having a second team in Chicago. I know CBS (or whoever has the AFC media rights) would love it.

Apparently the $4 billion rumor is widely known in NFL circles (according to Forbes). I have no idea if it's true, who the person is that has had that offer to the McCaskey's.

[JWags85]

Apparently the $4 billion rumor is widely known in NFL circles (according to Forbes). I have no idea if it's true, who the person is that has had that offer to the McCaskey's.

How old is the rumor?  My thought would be Ken Griffin or the Pritzkers, in conjuction with Pat Ryan perhaps.  Ken Griffin doesn't seem to be a sports fan, but he has very much shown a vanity in real estate purchases, so its the kind of BSD move that would make sense.  And the one or more of the Pritzkers one-upping the Rickett's seems like the sort of Chicago royalty move that I could see as well.  Either way, it subsided for a year, but I can't express my excitement for the McCaskey ownership era to come to a close.  I hope Ted Phillips is retained and then shipped to head of International Scouting in Yakutsk

[Pakuni]

How old is the rumor?  My thought would be Ken Griffin or the Pritzkers, in conjuction with Pat Ryan perhaps.  Ken Griffin doesn't seem to be a sports fan, but he has very much shown a vanity in real estate purchases, so its the kind of BSD move that would make sense.  And the one or more of the Pritzkers one-upping the Rickett's seems like the sort of Chicago royalty move that I could see as well.  Either way, it subsided for a year, but I can't express my excitement for the McCaskey ownership era to come to a close.  I hope Ted Phillips is retained and then shipped to head of International Scouting in Yakutsk

Pat Ryan makes sense, given that he already owns a chunk of the team.

[muwarrior69]

And it looks like London may only be one alternative being considered.  Including St. Louis.

Should have never left San Diego.  A new stadium would have happened eventually there.

Will they adjust salaries as their tax burden will be much higher than playing here in the States.

[jesmu84]

https://www.barstoolsports.com/chicago/people-who-wouldnt-consider-trading-khalil-mack-this-offseason-are-insane

Dish said it first!

[Cheeks]

The Rams stadium is unique due to multiple tenants and attached amenities that together are valued at more than the stadium itself. That circumstance isn't likely to be replicated elsewhere.
Also, while privately financed, Kroenke is getting tax incentives that have been valued at as much as $180 million, so it's not without public money.
It's a far better deal than most - Vegas, for example - but there's definitely tax dollars going to Kroenke here.

Fair enough, though I was talking about direct contributions for construction, land usage, etc...maybe that's what you are also including.  I'm trying to honestly remember the last stadium built in California that got straight gov't funding. I'm sure there are some, maybe one of the Nor Cal ones, but it has largely been a huge no-no in this state in an ironic twist.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Pat Ryan makes sense, given that he already owns a chunk of the team.

Plus, he has the right of first refusal.

[Jables1604]

I don't think the Vegas deal was ever offered to the Chargers. That whole thing was put together by the Raiders and Sheldon Adelson.
And if the NFL allowed the Raiders to move the LA instead if the Chargers, they'd be the most popular NFL team in that city right now.

I thought Spencer Strasmore was involved too.
Could’ve sworn Spencer Strathmore was involved too.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/31/sports/los-angeles-raiders-rams-fans-national-football-league.html
https://www.latimes.com/sports/rams/la-sp-rams-raiders-hernandez-20180818-story.html

[Pakuni]

Fair enough, though I was talking about direct contributions for construction, land usage, etc...maybe that's what you are also including.  I'm trying to honestly remember the last stadium built in California that got straight gov't funding. I'm sure there are some, maybe one of the Nor Cal ones, but it has largely been a huge no-no in this state in an ironic twist.

I believe the Niners stadium involved public funding.
I don't mean to knock the Rams situation. It's clearly a far better setup for the community than most stadium deals. But it seems there are some unique factors there (location, size, associated projects, etc.) that are unlikely most other places.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

https://www.espn.co.uk/nfl/story/_/id/28019240/green-bay-packers-visit-key-london-nfl-uk-md

So the Packers are the only team to not play in London?  Didn't realize that.

The problem is the Packers will never give up a home game.  And teams don't want to give up games with the Packers travelling fans.  Looking out to next year, would Tampa want to give up a game?  Houston?  Indy?  I don't think the Saints or a division opponent are a possibility.

[Pakuni]

https://www.espn.co.uk/nfl/story/_/id/28019240/green-bay-packers-visit-key-london-nfl-uk-md

So the Packers are the only team to not play in London?  Didn't realize that.

The problem is the Packers will never give up a home game.  And teams don't want to give up games with the Packers travelling fans.  Looking out to next year, would Tampa want to give up a game?  Houston?  Indy?  I don't think the Saints or a division opponent are a possibility.

I think Tampa would. They did this year. Jacksonville gives up one every year. Tennessee might be willing.