NFL Thread 2019-2020

[Pakuni]

Let Pace and Nagy build a roster together - in the scheme Nagy envisions.

You want to give Pace a second crack at a rebuild after he effed up his first? You're far more forgiving than most NFL owners would be.

[JWags85]

Appreciate this, too, and I think I've finally got it through my thick skull: If Trubisky doesn't pan out, he will have been Pace's mess but not Nagy's. Correct?

I'm guessing Nagy's reputation also will have been stained some because he will not have been able to "coach up" Trubinsky well enough.

Correct.  And its an unfortunately fascinating dichotomy in his legacy. Pace has done a pretty masterful job remaking the roster (something he did while being stuck with a lame duck coach), but he whiffed majorly and profoundly on a QB he traded up for.  He was the youngest GM in the league, is still only 42, so I don't want to bury him completely for it, but it hurts.

As for Nagy, its tricky.  He did great work with Alex Smith, but that was a multi-year NFL vet who had been a number 1 pick cause he was FANTASTIC in college.  He had some hiccups, but was rounding into a pretty good QB his last years in SF with competent coaching.  Trubisky was a complete unknown and raw.  So maybe Nagy could have done better, but that alone shouldn't tarnish him too much.  There is only so much you can do for a guy who just doesn't have it.  Nagy gets plenty of guys open for him, Trubisky just misses them or doesn't see them.  Nagy's legacy right now is more in danger cause he can't overcome that and cause he can't call a run game.

You want to give Pace a second crack at a rebuild after he effed up his first? You're far more forgiving than most NFL owners would be.

He didn't eff up the first.  Hell, if they had aforementioned Alex Smith (the Redskins, uninjured version) this would be a damn good team.  They whiffed on a QB, and thats damning, but they didn't mess up a rebuild.

[MU82]

The old rule of thumb is that a GM gets to hire two coaches before he starts to take the heat himself. I'm sure there have been plenty of exceptions to that -- GMs who were canned more quickly, and GMs who were allowed to run through 3-4 coaches before getting the ax themselves.

I haven't lived in Chicago for 9+ years now, and I no longer follow the Bears very closely, so I appreciate the info and opinions that others are sharing here. My son still lives there, and he is a huge Bears fan, so I get to hear his angst-filled take on things fairly often.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Yeah I'm not sure you can say this rebuild is effed up.  They did go 12-4 last year.  And they still are .500 now so there is still plenty of time to right the ship.  So I think Pace has done a decent job outside of the quarterbacking situation.  Remember that roster was a complete mess after three years of Phil Emery. 

But I think Nagy might just not be ready for this.  How he handled the kicking situation in the off-season was really bizarre.  Now he's coming off as defensive and blaming the media, which IMO is never a good look.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The old rule of thumb is that a GM gets to hire two coaches before he starts to take the heat himself. I'm sure there have been plenty of exceptions to that -- GMs who were canned more quickly, and GMs who were allowed to run through 3-4 coaches before getting the ax themselves.

I haven't lived in Chicago for 9+ years now, and I no longer follow the Bears very closely, so I appreciate the info and opinions that others are sharing here. My son still lives there, and he is a huge Bears fan, so I get to hear his angst-filled take on things fairly often.

But everybody knows he really didn't hire John Fox.  The Bears hired former Giants GM to run their search that ended up with Pace.  Fox had just been fired by the Broncos and Acorsi, who knew him from all his years in New York, recommended him as coach.  How much Pace wanted to go along with that is a bit up for debate.

[MU82]

But everybody knows he really didn't hire John Fox.  The Bears hired former Giants GM to run their search that ended up with Pace.  Fox had just been fired by the Broncos and Acorsi, who knew him from all his years in New York, recommended him as coach.  How much Pace wanted to go along with that is a bit up for debate.

Exactly. So maybe Pace will get to hire the next coach if Nagy doesn't work out. Or not.

[RJax55]

But everybody knows he really didn't hire John Fox.  The Bears hired former Giants GM to run their search that ended up with Pace.  Fox had just been fired by the Broncos and Acorsi, who knew him from all his years in New York, recommended him as coach.  How much Pace wanted to go along with that is a bit up for debate.

Yeah, poor ownership 101. Hire a GM, but cut his legs off right away by not trusting him with the coaching hire. The Bears got what they deserved with John Fox.

While Pace has had some nice acquisitions on the defensive-side, his skill player choices leave much to be desired. Kevin White, Mitch, Adam Sheehan, all complete busts. Anthony Miller is trending that way as well. He's another guy that Pace traded-up for and gave up decent draft capital to get.

[Pakuni]

He didn't eff up the first.  Hell, if they had aforementioned Alex Smith (the Redskins, uninjured version) this would be a damn good team.  They whiffed on a QB, and thats damning, but they didn't mess up a rebuild.

Well, I'd day whiffing on a QB at #2 overall is pretty strong evidence of an effed up rebuild. There's not anything more important to the success or failure of a franchise than landing the right quarterback.
But let's delve further.
In 2015, he had a top 10 pick and chose Kevin White, who had 25 catches in the ensuing four years and is now out of the league.
In 2016, he gave up a fourth-round pick to move up two spots and select Leonard Floyd at #9 overall, a pass-rush specialist who's produced an underwhelming 17.5 sacks and one forced fumble in 3.5 seasons.
In 2017 ... Not just Trubisky, but he burned a second-round pick on Adam Shaheen.
2018 ... something's amiss with Roquan Smith, who after a promising rookie season has regressed badly. Second-round picks James Daniels (mediocre) and Anthony Miller (bad) leave a lot to be desired so far.
2019 and 2020 ... no first-round pick.

To his credit, Pace struck gold landing Eddie Jackson in the fourth round and has added other solid players like Cohen, Amos and Howard on day three as well. And he's had some success in free agency, with Hicks and Robinson (but some misses also, i.e. Mike Glennon, Pernell McPhee, Dion Sims, Markus Wheaton).

But ultimately, barring a significant reversal of form this year - hard to imagine given recent performances and the upcoming schedule -  Pace's first five years are going to end with one playoff appearance, zero playoff wins, instability at the most important position on the field, and little draft capital or cap space in the near future to improve the situation.
You're good with that?

[Dr. Blackheart]

Yeah, poor ownership 101. Hire a GM, but cut his legs off right away by not trusting him with the coaching hire. The Bears got what they deserved with John Fox.

While Pace has had some nice acquisitions on the defensive-side, his skill player choices leave much to be desired. Kevin White, Mitch, Adam Sheehan, all complete busts. Anthony Miller is trending that way as well. He's another guy that Pace traded-up for and gave up decent draft capital to get.

I am not a Mitch fan, but it is a bit early for me to call him a “total bust”. Pace went out a got a bunch of retreads at the WR/TE positions and did not improve the offensive line.  He gave up Howard for a low draft choice whereas he could have got a 2/3 rounder right now if he waited and didn’t sign Davis. Howard would have been a big piece this season for the Bears and that would have allowed Monty to ease in. 

The bigger issue for Mitch is his development and if the weak supporting cast Pace has put forward is causing the regression or is it Mitch...and I think the easy answer is yes the cast around Mitch is very limited.  And that is where Pace and Nagy are to blame. The question for this season is if Mitch and Nagy can find a way to grow their way out of this predicament?

Pace has been fleeced on most of his trades/moves on offense. There is no hope there this season from him. Nagy has shown to be in way over his head as a head coach, and gets too cute or gives up the game plan too early. Mitch was way overblown in the draft but can he be a dependable starter? While I am leaning toward guilty, I still have a reasonable doubt.

[JWags85]

Well, I'd day whiffing on a QB at #2 overall is pretty strong evidence of an effed up rebuild. There's not anything more important to the success or failure of a franchise than landing the right quarterback.
But let's delve further.
In 2015, he had a top 10 pick and chose Kevin White, who had 25 catches in the ensuing four years and is now out of the league.
In 2016, he gave up a fourth-round pick to move up two spots and select Leonard Floyd at #9 overall, a pass-rush specialist who's produced an underwhelming 17.5 sacks and one forced fumble in 3.5 seasons.
In 2017 ... Not just Trubisky, but he burned a second-round pick on Adam Shaheen.
2018 ... something's amiss with Roquan Smith, who after a promising rookie season has regressed badly. Second-round picks James Daniels (mediocre) and Anthony Miller (bad) leave a lot to be desired so far.
2019 and 2020 ... no first-round pick.

To his credit, Pace struck gold landing Eddie Jackson in the fourth round and has added other solid players like Cohen, Amos and Howard on day three as well. And he's had some success in free agency, with Hicks and Robinson (but some misses also, i.e. Mike Glennon, Pernell McPhee, Dion Sims, Markus Wheaton).

But ultimately, barring a significant reversal of form this year - hard to imagine given recent performances and the upcoming schedule -  Pace's first five years are going to end with one playoff appearance, zero playoff wins, instability at the most important position on the field, and little draft capital or cap space in the near future to improve the situation.
You're good with that?

Kevin White was projected as a top 5 pick when the Bears drafted him.  He suffered an injury in his first training camp and never found a way to be truly healthy.  Thats a crapty break, no pun intended, but it doesn't mean it was the wrong pick, its unfair 20/20 hindsight.

Floyd has been disappointing.  He started brightly, not sure why he's regressed. 

Shaheen is a disaster, fully bust worthy.

But I'm not burying Pace for Roquan Smith or Anthony Miller yet.  Roquan was very solid last year, and there appears to be some issues off the field this year.  Which can be the result of many things.  Anthony Miller showed a lot of promise last year, this year?  He has a terrible QB who can't hit open receivers.  Literally the only productive player catching the ball is Robinson, who has become a safety blanket and more.

Those FA misses?  Come on.  Mike Glennon was a relatively cheap stop gap starter they were forced into making a move on.  McPhee had a great first year and got injured and was worthless for 2 years.

I think you're underestimating how bad that Bears roster was when he took over.  And 3 of those first 5 years were with a stubborn, poor fit HC that he didn't get to choose and clearly differed from ideologically.  Injuries happen in football.  It sucks, but when they aren't another in a successive line for an injury prone player, I have trouble castigating the GM for making the move.  He's not been perfect, but hes been a major upgrade, done a lot of things well, and reshaped a bad team.  This roster doesn't need a complete teardown and rebuild, which is what it seems like people are saying, which is absurd.  Again, with a decent QB, this is a 10 win team easily.

[Pakuni]

Kevin White was projected as a top 5 pick when the Bears drafted him.  He suffered an injury in his first training camp and never found a way to be truly healthy.  Thats a crapty break, no pun intended, but it doesn't mean it was the wrong pick, its unfair 20/20 hindsight.

White was bad and it had nothing to do with his first injury. He was bad when fully healthy. He simply never learned how to run a pro-style route - he never was asked to in college - and had inconsistent hands. He put up numbers in college because he was in a pass-happy offense that allowed him to freelance, and then had a huge combine.
Just because he was overrated in the pre-draft process doesn't mean he wasn't a terrible pick. By that logic, JaMarcus Russell and Ryan Leaf weren't bad picks either.

[jesmu84]

Re: "bad picks"

Are they bad if they don't produce in the NFL? Or bad if taken way earlier than the consensus had them?

Was Greg oden a bad pick? Insert other underachieving, yet appropriately ranked and selected pick here.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Well, Greg Oden definitely had a poor NFL career...although if the NFL had a "Wins Under Replacement" he'd probably have a better number than Tebow.

[DegenerateDish]

If the Bears continue to struggle, it’s not unfathomable that they finish last in the division. If they did indeed finish last, in Pace’s five years on the job, they will have finished last in four of them.

[forgetful]

The bigger issue for Mitch is his development and if the weak supporting cast Pace has put forward is causing the regression or is it Mitch...and I think the easy answer is yes the cast around Mitch is very limited.  And that is where Pace and Nagy are to blame. The question for this season is if Mitch and Nagy can find a way to grow their way out of this predicament?

The problem with Mitch is that play after play, people are open and he either completely misses them, or doesn't see them at all. His field vision and feel for the game has been terrible. That has nothing to do with supporting cast, it has more to do with ability and reps.

But it is not improving with reps. He continues to see the field poorly and miss open receivers. He could grow out of it, but I don't think he'll be around long enough to be given a chance.

[MU82]

Re: "bad picks"

Are they bad if they don't produce in the NFL? Or bad if taken way earlier than the consensus had them?

Was Greg oden a bad pick? Insert other underachieving, yet appropriately ranked and selected pick here.

Oden was a risk/reward pick. The Blazers knew he had bad knees and felt that with proper treatment/surgery, he would be OK. It ended up not working out. Embiid falls into this category, too. So far, his situation has been A-OK, even though the Sixers didn't have his services for a long while after that draft.

Sam Bowie was a bad pick. Not only were there injury concerns, but lots and lots of talent evaluators were quite certain that Jordan would be the far superior pro. They obviously didn't know that Jordan would be the best player ever, but there was little doubt he'd be a star. The same could not be said of Bowie. But the Blazers already had Drexler and they felt they had to get a big man.

In the case of the Leafs, Klinglers, Russells, etc, we often don't know if they're "bad" picks until a year or three into their careers. I will tell you that more than a few Panthers fans didn't want the team to draft Newton because they were worried he'd be the next JaMarcus Russell or Vince Young.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Oden was a risk/reward pick. The Blazers knew he had bad knees and felt that with proper treatment/surgery, he would be OK. It ended up not working out. Embiid falls into this category, too. So far, his situation has been A-OK, even though the Sixers didn't have his services for a long while after that draft.

Sam Bowie was a bad pick. Not only were there injury concerns, but lots and lots of talent evaluators were quite certain that Jordan would be the far superior pro. They obviously didn't know that Jordan would be the best player ever, but there was little doubt he'd be a star. The same could not be said of Bowie. But the Blazers already had Drexler and they felt they had to get a big man.

Bobby Knight was a friend of the Blazers GM at the time and was telling him they'd be nuts not to draft Jordan.  When that GM told Knight that they already had a guard in Drexler, Knight apparently said they could play them at the same time.  (Knight knew Jordan well from coaching him in the 1984 olympics.)

I honestly think the Blazers were the only team that didn't have Jordan number one or two in that draft.  (Behind Hakeem)

[Hards Alumni]

I am not a Mitch fan, but it is a bit early for me to call him a “total bust”. Pace went out a got a bunch of retreads at the WR/TE positions and did not improve the offensive line.  He gave up Howard for a low draft choice whereas he could have got a 2/3 rounder right now if he waited and didn’t sign Davis. Howard would have been a big piece this season for the Bears and that would have allowed Monty to ease in. 

The bigger issue for Mitch is his development and if the weak supporting cast Pace has put forward is causing the regression or is it Mitch...and I think the easy answer is yes the cast around Mitch is very limited.  And that is where Pace and Nagy are to blame. The question for this season is if Mitch and Nagy can find a way to grow their way out of this predicament?

Pace has been fleeced on most of his trades/moves on offense. There is no hope there this season from him. Nagy has shown to be in way over his head as a head coach, and gets too cute or gives up the game plan too early. Mitch was way overblown in the draft but can he be a dependable starter? While I am leaning toward guilty, I still have a reasonable doubt.

Stats tell the tale.

[jesmu84]

Re: "bad picks"

Are they bad if they don't produce in the NFL? Or bad if taken way earlier than the consensus had them?

Was Greg oden a bad pick? Insert other underachieving, yet appropriately ranked and selected pick here.

This is what I was trying to say. Pick was appropriate. NFL success has not translated.

https://twitter.com/WhiskeyRanger29/status/1187228485888155649?s=20

[MU82]

Bobby Knight was a friend of the Blazers GM at the time and was telling him they'd be nuts not to draft Jordan.  When that GM told Knight that they already had a guard in Drexler, Knight apparently said they could play them at the same time.  (Knight knew Jordan well from coaching him in the 1984 olympics.)

I honestly think the Blazers were the only team that didn't have Jordan number one or two in that draft.  (Behind Hakeem)

I heard similar versions of this exact same thing from several people I trust.

The Blazers did what a lot of stupid teams do, they reached for position. They ended up passing on arguably the greatest basketball player ever. It would have been a bad pick even had Bowie not gotten hurt. The fact that he already had injury situations made it one of the worst picks ever. They got what they deserved.

[cheebs09]

These Vikings jerseys are hideous.

[wadesworld]

These Vikings jerseys are hideous.

Yeah they are. And the white with maroon-ish pants look really good for the Skins.

[GB Warrior]

Yeah they are. And the white with maroon-ish pants look really good for the Skins.

If they'd chance that stupid logo (and name) , the Skins color scheme is still classic. I'm partial to their 'RadioShack' throwbacks of yesteryear. Wish the NFL would get rid of the one shell rule for unis like this.



As for the Vikes, their purple of choice is stupid, but I thought the yellow lettering was much better than white, and somehow more of a bad thing with the purple made it better?

[dgies9156]

Bears season ticket holder here, weighing in.

Trubisky sure as heck does not look like the answer this year. Tends to look more like Cade or Sexy Rexy -- good college quarterback who lacked whatever it takes to succeed in the NFL. Trubisky has the rest of the season to turn it around.  His future and that of "offensive genius" Matt Nagy depend on it.

I'm not optimistic!

Big problem the Bears have is finding a replacement. No first round draft choice this year. They have a defense that is built to win NOW and have strong needs on the offensive line. So quarterback help is likely until at least 2021, unless they trade for someone like Mariota, Newton or somehow find a way to pry Bridgewater from New Orleans (good luck).

Last time the Bears traded for what they thought was a Number 1 quarterback, we ended up with Kordell Stewart.

[wadesworld]

Bears season ticket holder here, weighing in.

Trubisky sure as heck does not look like the answer this year. Tends to look more like Cade or Sexy Rexy -- good college quarterback who lacked whatever it takes to succeed in the NFL. Trubisky has the rest of the season to turn it around.  His future and that of "offensive genius" Matt Nagy depend on it.

I'm not optimistic!

Big problem the Bears have is finding a replacement. No first round draft choice this year. They have a defense that is built to win NOW and have strong needs on the offensive line. So quarterback help is likely until at least 2021, unless they trade for someone like Mariota, Newton or somehow find a way to pry Bridgewater from New Orleans (good luck).

Last time the Bears traded for what they thought was a Number 1 quarterback, we ended up with Kordell Stewart.

Was he?