NFL Thread 2019-2020

[Cheeks]

So...you know you are wrong, but you're going to claim it as a win for you.

LOL!

Oh shoot!  There's an ellipsis there!  He can't be wrong!  So Teddy lost because hey!  Ellipsis!

I'm starting to doubt that you AREN'T this dumb.  Maybe you really are.

Let me just get this straight.  Your claim that you used an ellipsis meant that you knew the Panthers are better with a healthy Cam, no?  That's why you used the ellipsis, because you knew you were saying something stupid, but you meant to be saying something not stupid (a physically incapable Cam is worse for the Panthers than his healthy backup).  BUT now you're claiming that the Saints are fine with Brees OR with Teddy?  So are we saying that the Saints are fine with Brees in there with a cast on his throwing hand or...?  (Ellipsis warning!)  Or are you freudian slipping that what you really meant when your (incorrectly used) ellipsis saved you! was that you think that the Panthers are better with Cam's backup than they are with Cam Newton under center (no ellipsis necessary)?  Because that's what you're saying, given the lack of an ellipsis around your claim about the Saints situation.

The Saints went to the NFC title game last year and got robbed at a chance at the Super Bowl, all with Brees at QB.

This year they won their first game and he got hurt in the second game trailing 3-0 against the Rams.  They proceeded to lose 27-9 with Bridgewater.

So the last 8 ballgame last year and this year that Brees was involved in, they have done very well.

Panthers, Cam is 0-8, lots of interceptions.  He was playing hurt.  I don’t see the comparison at all.  The two teams are not comparable, nor are the two qb’s based on the last half season of games.  Newton playing injured, bad wing, bad wheels and not getting it done...hurting his team more than helping it with a ton of interceptions.  Brees was getting it done, Teddy after Rams debacle is as well, so is Kyle Allen. 

[wadesworld]

The Saints went to the NFC title game last year and got robbed at a chance at the Super Bowl, all with Brees at QB.

This year they won their first game and he got hurt in the second game trailing 3-0 against the Rams.  They proceeded to lose 27-9 with Bridgewater.

So the last 8 ballgame last year and this year that Brees was involved in, they have done very well.

Panthers, Cam is 0-8, lots of interceptions.  He was playing hurt.  I don’t see the comparison at all.  The two teams are not comparable, nor are the two qb’s based on the last half season of games.  Newton playing injured, bad wing, bad wheels and not getting it done...hurting his team more than helping it with a ton of interceptions.  Brees was getting it done, Teddy after Rams debacle is as well, so is Kyle Allen.

So healthy Brees vs. hurt Cam. Because, you know, ellipsis. That’s why you used it. Duh. Because your take isn’t healthy Cam is makes the Panthers worse it was injured Cam. Ellipsis! People lost their mind because of the ellipsis!

Apples to Broccoli.

Dumb comparison.

[Cheeks]

Read the post.

Now I'm starting to see that not only math is hard, but so is a 4th grade reading level.

I answered the question.  The Panthers are not better off with an injured Cam Newton playing.  I would assume you and others to understand that means with a healthy Cam Newton, they are better off...4th grade stuff.

In fact, I went on about how much I think Cam Newton is a great QB.  I also said, explicitly, “As long as Cam plays injured like he did last year and this year, they are better off with him not playing...unless healthy, he hurts his team out there.  He is a great player when healthy, but he isn’t right now and hasn’t been for quite some time”

I said that in this thread.  You responded to it, so I am not sure how you now don’t know my take.  Sept 30th, reply 401 was my statement.

[wadesworld]

I answered the question.  The Panthers are not better off with an injured Cam Newton playing.  I would assume you and others to understand that means with a healthy Cam Newton, they are better off...4th grade stuff.

In fact, I went on about how much I think Cam Newton is a great QB.  I also said, explicitly, “As long as Cam plays injured like he did last year and this year, they are better off with him not playing...unless healthy, he hurts his team out there.  He is a great player when healthy, but he isn’t right now and hasn’t been for quite some time”

I said that in this thread.  You responded to it, so I am not sure how you now don’t know my take.  Sept 30th, reply 401 was my statement.

Impossible to know what you’re saying unless you spell it out. The goalposts are constantly, constantly shifting. So yes, should be fourth grade stuff yet you make more pretzels than Auntie Ann’s on a Tuesday lunch break so nobody ever knows if you’re using an ellipsis or what. Because when you’re wrong the goalposts will just shift and hey, don’t read what I said literally, read my mind!

Anyways, now that we know your stance, incredibly impressive analysis. I don’t know how you aren’t running an NFL team. I can see how ESPN and NFL Network are picking up on this after you.

[Cheeks]

So healthy Brees vs. hurt Cam. Because, you know, ellipsis. That’s why you used it. Duh. Because your take isn’t healthy Cam is makes the Panthers worse it was injured Cam. Ellipsis! People lost their mind because of the ellipsis!

Apples to Broccoli.

Dumb comparison.

I would expect the Saints to bench hurt Brees.  I don’t understand why the Panthers didn’t with Newton, which is why the comparison has been made...because the Panthers kept throwing him out there to play saying he was ready to go and they made the decision that an unhealthy Newton was better than a healthy backup.  We will never know if 2018 would have been different, but at least in 2019 it appears thus far “ the Panthers better off without Cam Newton....”

[Cheeks]

Impossible to know what you’re saying unless you spell it out. The goalposts are constantly, constantly shifting. So yes, should be fourth grade stuff yet you make more pretzels than Auntie Ann’s on a Tuesday lunch break so nobody ever knows if you’re using an ellipsis or what. Because when you’re wrong the goalposts will just shift and hey, don’t read what I said literally, read my mind!

Anyways, now that we know your stance, incredibly impressive analysis. I don’t know how you aren’t running an NFL team. I can see how ESPN and NFL Network are picking up on this after you.

The goalposts aren’t moving, you responded to my take and then later act as if the take changed.  It didn’t...the take is still identical.  What goalposts were moved, let alone constantly?

Appreciate the sarcasm, I’m just glad others are publicly saying it.  Question for you and Mike, why do you think the Panthers continued to play a hurt Cam Newton rather than sit him?  At what point do they say this isn’t working?  He isn’t right?  3 losses, 5 losses, 7 losses? 

[wadesworld]

The goalposts aren’t moving, you responded to my take and then later act as if the take changed.  It didn’t...the take is still identical.  What goalposts were moved, let alone constantly?

Appreciate the sarcasm, I’m just glad others are publicly saying it.  Question for you and Mike, why do you think the Panthers continued to play a hurt Cam Newton rather than sit him?  At what point do they say this isn’t working?  He isn’t right?  3 losses, 5 losses, 7 losses?

Apparently the answer was 2 losses. Not hard to figure out given that he played in 2 games.

[MU82]

Scoop histrionics aside, the Panthers are facing an interesting, potentially fireworks-causing situation.

About three weeks ago in Charlotte, discussions were beginning about the QB position. What if Kyle Allen, an undrafted kid who barely played college football, beats the odds and actually does well as Cam Newton's replacement? What if he's the next Tom Brady, or at least the next Jake Delhomme? Those discussions and debates have picked up steam in the ensuing weeks, and now questions are being asked of Ron Rivera in press conferences.

Well, Allen has done fine. He has a strong arm, he can make all the throws, and, supported by the best RB in the league and an above-average receiving corps, he has made some big plays these last 4 weeks, all wins. It has helped tremendously that the Panthers' defense has been quite good.

He also has made plenty of mistakes, the biggest being that he doesn't have very good "pocket awareness." He doesn't sense defenders around him, doesn't know when to step up in the pocket, or shuffle a little to the right to avoid the rush, doesn't secure the football when he's about to be hit, etc. As a result, although he hasn't thrown any interceptions, he has fumbled 6 times, losing 5. Against Houston, he was hit 3 times and fumbled each time in a game the Panthers won despite him. I'm hoping that pocket awareness develops as he gains experience, as he seems like a fairly quick study.

He obviously hasn't been as dynamic as a healthy Newton was, but Cam has taken a ton of pounding over the years and who knows if he'll ever be what he was. Adding to the situation is that Newton's contract ends next year; the team could cut him after this season, save something like $20 million under the salary cap, and owe him only $2 million or so. If Allen keeps playing well and winning, cutting Cam would seem a no-brainer.

As for this season ... after several years as a guy who tended to brood and be all about himself, Newton has matured into a popular team leader. But Allen also has earned his teammates' respect for obvious reasons.

I don't envy Rivera for the decision he eventually will have to make because it can't help but divide the locker room some. He and Newton arrived in Charlotte at the same time, and they have been joined at the hip ever since, winning division titles, going to a Super Bowl, etc. As for now, Rivera is saying all the right things:

“I’m not going to worry, speculate on anything until I have to address that. Until then, we’re going to stay in the now, focus on what we’re doing right now. As far as I’m concerned, we’re just not going to deal with the question until it’s time.”

If Allen really is the best choice, will Rivera have the guts to do what Belichick did in 2001 after Bledsoe got hurt? If so, will Newton be gracious, as Bledsoe was and as Eli Manning is now?

This will be one of the big things everybody in Charlotte talks about from now until the season ends, and then some.

(I am looking forward to any conversation this interesting situation leads to, but I will not answer anything posted by one Scooper in particular.)

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Kyle Allen trivia:  His dad Mike is a Wisconsin native who was involved in the "Fiesta Bowl Scandal" about ten years ago.

https://www.si.com/college-football/2011/03/30/fiesta-bowl-junker-bcs

[Jockey]

Scoop histrionics aside, the Panthers are facing an interesting, potentially fireworks-causing situation.

About three weeks ago in Charlotte, discussions were beginning about the QB position. What if Kyle Allen, an undrafted kid who barely played college football, beats the odds and actually does well as Cam Newton's replacement? What if he's the next Tom Brady, or at least the next Jake Delhomme? Those discussions and debates have picked up steam in the ensuing weeks, and now questions are being asked of Ron Rivera in press conferences.

Well, Allen has done fine. He has a strong arm, he can make all the throws, and, supported by the best RB in the league and an above-average receiving corps, he has made some big plays these last 4 weeks, all wins. It has helped tremendously that the Panthers' defense has been quite good.

He also has made plenty of mistakes, the biggest being that he doesn't have very good "pocket awareness." He doesn't sense defenders around him, doesn't know when to step up in the pocket, or shuffle a little to the right to avoid the rush, doesn't secure the football when he's about to be hit, etc. As a result, although he hasn't thrown any interceptions, he has fumbled 6 times, losing 5. Against Houston, he was hit 3 times and fumbled each time in a game the Panthers won despite him. I'm hoping that pocket awareness develops as he gains experience, as he seems like a fairly quick study.

He obviously hasn't been as dynamic as a healthy Newton was, but Cam has taken a ton of pounding over the years and who knows if he'll ever be what he was. Adding to the situation is that Newton's contract ends next year; the team could cut him after this season, save something like $20 million under the salary cap, and owe him only $2 million or so. If Allen keeps playing well and winning, cutting Cam would seem a no-brainer.

.....

I think that by the time Cam is fully healthy, it will be a no-brainer. The league is gathering tape on Allen and they will catch up to him. Once he puts out a couple of clunkers, it will be an easy decision.

I have never been a Cam fan, but if you look at games he played when he was healthy, it’s absolutely clear who the better QB is - and it’s not even remotely close.

By the time Cam is healthy, Panther fans will be clamoring to have him back in the lineup.

[Pakuni]

Duck Hodges or Ben Roethlisberger?

[Jockey]

Duck Hodges or Ben Roethlisberger?

I know that is a “teal” comment-but people love backup QBs.

[wadesworld]

Duck Hodges or Ben Roethlisberger....

FIFY....

[forgetful]

I think that by the time Cam is fully healthy, it will be a no-brainer. The league is gathering tape on Allen and they will catch up to him. Once he puts out a couple of clunkers, it will be an easy decision.

I have never been a Cam fan, but if you look at games he played when he was healthy, it’s absolutely clear who the better QB is - and it’s not even remotely close.

By the time Cam is healthy, Panther fans will be clamoring to have him back in the lineup.

Just to be clear, we are talking about Cam Marotta right? Also, didn't realize he was injured, but pretty sure the Panthers would be better with the backup instead of Marotta. I mean, I didn't even know he was in the NFL.

[wadesworld]

Just to be clear, we are talking about Cam Marotta right? Also, didn't realize he was injured, but pretty sure the Panthers would be better with the backup instead of Marotta. I mean, I didn't even know he was in the NFL.

No, Marcus Mariota.

Are the Titans better off without Mariota....?

[Pakuni]

Speaking of bad quarterback play, is Baker Mayfield actually bad? Because he looks bad. Even when adjusted for the poor play of his o-line and drops, he's been very bad.

[Jockey]

Just to be clear, we are talking about Cam Marotta right? Also, didn't realize he was injured, but pretty sure the Panthers would be better with the backup instead of Marotta. I mean, I didn't even know he was in the NFL.

Huh ....?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Speaking of bad quarterback play, is Baker Mayfield actually bad? Because he looks bad. Even when adjusted for the poor play of his o-line and drops, he's been very bad.

No he's not bad.  Team watched his tape and figured him out.  It happens to every quarterback.  He has to take that next step, and I really think they hired the wrong guy in Kitchens to get him there.

[MU82]

I know that is a “teal” comment-but people love backup QBs.

Truth. With very few exceptions (such as New England), the backup QB is always a fan favorite. During Cam's MVP/Super Bowl season, there actually were Panthers fans who still thought Derek Anderson should be the QB.

The problem comes when that backup QB has to, you know, play in a game.

I still remember when Jonathan Quinn finally had to play for the Bears. Ugh.

[Pakuni]

No he's not bad.  Team watched his tape and figured him out.  It happens to every quarterback.  He has to take that next step, and I really think they hired the wrong guy in Kitchens to get him there.

This may very well be a temporary regression, but I think it's more than teams adjusting to him. He's just not throwing the ball well, and that has nothing to do with the other team or Kitchens (who, I agree, has been awful).
His adjusted completion percentage - which eliminates drops, throws when he's being hit, throwaways, etc. - is 26th among 27 qualified QBs. His passer rating under pressure is 24.1. Next worse in the NFL is 48.1. I think those are numbers that fall directly on him.
Anyhow, obviously way too soon to say he's a bad quarterback, but he's trending the wrong way.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

This may very well be a temporary regression, but I think it's more than teams adjusting to him. He's just not throwing the ball well, and that has nothing to do with the other team or Kitchens (who, I agree, has been awful).
His adjusted completion percentage - which eliminates drops, throws when he's being hit, throwaways, etc. - is 26th among 27 qualified QBs. His passer rating under pressure is 24.1. Next worse in the NFL is 48.1. I think those are numbers that fall directly on him.
Anyhow, obviously way too soon to say he's a bad quarterback, but he's trending the wrong way.

I agree, which is why I never bought into the off-season hype.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I agree, which is why I never bought into the off-season hype.

Just keep giving the ball to Chubby so I can keep my Fantasy Football team rolling.

[jesmu84]

For those more knowledgable than me...

What are the impressions on Cardinals/Kingsbury's offense succeeding in the NFL? And on Kyler as an NFL-caliber QB?

[DegenerateDish]

I thought going into the year that the NFC overall was solid (outside of Washington, the Jets/Fins/Bengals are all AFC teams). I thought Arizona might have been a train wreck, they're not.

Conference is really interesting about a third of the way through. I'm going to break this up by confidence level.

-Teams I trust (Green Bay/New Orleans/Seattle)
-2018 Bears team (San Francisco)
-Frisky teams (Carolina/Detroit)
-Teams I just do not trust (Chicago/Minny/Dallas/Philly)
-Regression team that stood way out (Rams...I'm fine if you'd rather put the Bears here)
-Bad teams that I'd still have no full faith in guaranteeing as a W (Bucs/Cards/Giants)
-See ya in 2020 (Washington/Atlanta)

Philly is a total WTF to me. They lose at Atlanta, and win at Green Bay. Their (replacement) corners got torched by Cousins. They have a gigantic game at Dallas this Sunday, then they go to Buffalo, and then host Bears/Pats/Seahawks all in consecutive weeks. That's a massive 5 game stretch.

[JWags85]

This may very well be a temporary regression, but I think it's more than teams adjusting to him. He's just not throwing the ball well, and that has nothing to do with the other team or Kitchens (who, I agree, has been awful).
His adjusted completion percentage - which eliminates drops, throws when he's being hit, throwaways, etc. - is 26th among 27 qualified QBs. His passer rating under pressure is 24.1. Next worse in the NFL is 48.1. I think those are numbers that fall directly on him.
Anyhow, obviously way too soon to say he's a bad quarterback, but he's trending the wrong way.

One of my best friends is a diehard Browns fan, and we've talked at length about it.  I think its a combination of things.  I think its a combo platter of expectations, sophomore slump, and god awful coaching/development.  He came in last year fighting for a starting job, minimal expectations, a bit of an unknown quantity at the NFL level, and he just had to go out there and play.  Fast forward to this year, he was the runner up for ROY, Browns add a top 3 WR, and they have a standout young RB.  People expect the world.  He'd have a ton of pressure to be good just based off of a great rookie campaign, but now its ratcheted up to "be dominant offensively".  That bleeds into your play, especially when the team is struggling.

I get his pure numbers and performance have been crap, but I think the abysmal coaching is two fold.  First, his QB coach last year was Ken Zampese.  He was a crap OC at the end of his time in Cincy, but he's a fantastic QB guru.  Cut his teeth with the greatest show on turf, then groomed QBs extremely well for Marvin Lewis.  Hell, Jon Kitna was just a guy most of his career until he set records under Zampese.  Then he was instrumental in molding Carson Palmer and did great with Andy Dalton.  So he was a great mentor for Baker.  He gets tossed out with a good chunk of the staff after last season.  His replacement?  Ryan Lindley, who is basically 5 years old than Baker, in his second season as a coach, and his previous experience was coaching RBs.  Thats a massive change and poorly timed as teams had an entire offseason to study your film and adjust.

Kitchens himself has done him no favors.  The games Ive watched, the offense has little rhythm, there is terrible balance, and Baker doesn't get put in a position to succeed.  You'll have Chubb working well and then they will abandon the run for entire drives.  Or do nothing to get completions stacking up to get a flow going.  Even Aaron Rodgers struggled at times last year when McCarthey didn't call plays to get him in a rhythm and comfortable, much less a young QB.  Baker needs to be a lot better and I'm sure nobody knows that more than him, but he's been put in probably the worst position to succeed he could have been in given the end of last year.

[/quote]

For those more knowledgable than me...

What are the impressions on Cardinals/Kingsbury's offense succeeding in the NFL? And on Kyler as an NFL-caliber QB?

Too early to tell IMO.  I have been impressed in some ways with the offense.  There are plenty of tricks and wrinkles.  Murray has been pretty good, but he has a great RB, an incredible safety blanket WR, and an offense people need to figure out.  He seems to do a lot of throw and pray at times.  Ive yet to watch him and be like "this is a star in the making".   I was more impressed with early Mahomes and Watson play, than Murray, for comparison.  Doesn't mean he wont be a good starter though.