Excellent article on state of Georgetown

[Eye]

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/archives/110917.htm

[Oldgym]

Outstanding piece.  The discussion of the institution's slow reaction to JTIII's decline said surprisingly little about his father's legacy and the name that appears on their athletic center, but other than that, great in-depth reading.

[warriorchick]

Outstanding piece.  The discussion of the institution's slow reaction to JTIII's decline said surprisingly little about his father's legacy and the name that appears on their athletic center, but other than that, great in-depth reading.

You could have substituted DePaul, Ray Meyer, and Joey Meyer for Georgetown, John Thompson, and JTIII and it would still be a spot-on article.

Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.

[Herman Cain]

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/archives/110917.htm

The best part of the article is when you scroll to the bottom it lists out all the teams of the Big East and they have us listed as Marquette Warriors

[Galway Eagle]

Is there another program that has a more over inflated view of their program than Georgetown?

“One would have been reluctant to named any school other than Georgetown University as the standard bearer of the new, yet old Big East conference heading into March of that season.”

How about a team that made 10/12 NCAA appearances, and shared that big east title that year? That had a 2 sweet 16s, an elite 8 and final 4

Georgetown made 9/13 NCAA appearances during the 2001-2013 stretch. 2 sweet 16s and a final 4

Villanova made 8/9 during a 2005-2013 stretch. A sweet 16 elite 8 and final 4

But in Georgetown’s eyes they were head and shoulders above the rest of the league going into the new BE. Can’t stand their fans like that one guy who predicted a 3 seed on here and then disappeared in shame at the end of the season.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Is there another program that has a more over inflated view of their program than Georgetown?

“One would have been reluctant to named any school other than Georgetown University as the standard bearer of the new, yet old Big East conference heading into March of that season.”

How about a team that made 10/12 NCAA appearances, and shared that big east title that year? That had a 2 sweet 16s, an elite 8 and final 4

Georgetown made 9/13 NCAA appearances during the 2001-2013 stretch. 2 sweet 16s and a final 4

Villanova made 8/9 during a 2005-2013 stretch. A sweet 16 elite 8 and final 4

But in Georgetown’s eyes they were head and shoulders above the rest of the league going into the new BE. Can’t stand their fans like that one guy who predicted a 3 seed on here and then disappeared in shame at the end of the season.

Exactly. Even in the formation of the new conference, Georgetown thought they were the elite drivers of the realignment when it was in in fact Nova and MU. They rested on their laurels while Nova adapted and cleaned their clock.

Wright went from recruiting one and dones to recruiting four year players. He had learned his humility from the past. Not sure Georgetown still has if they don’t mention their ego as one of the major problems that have held them back. The fall from hubris can be a powerful learning lesson.

That said, Ewing has impressed me so far in the way he has coached up their talent with his system. All things are relative until they play a decent team, though.

[skianth16]

Is there another program that has a more over inflated view of their program than Georgetown?

“One would have been reluctant to named any school other than Georgetown University as the standard bearer of the new, yet old Big East conference heading into March of that season.”

I think that's a fair way to look at things, though. When I think of "old" Big East, I think Syracuse, UConn, and Georgetown. They've been around forever and were a big part of building the basketball brand that the conference became known for. I don't know that I'd consider them to be too full of themselves.

[warriorchick]

I think that's a fair way to look at things, though. When I think of "old" Big East, I think Syracuse, UConn, and Georgetown. They've been around forever and were a big part of building the basketball brand that the conference became known for. I don't know that I'd consider them to be too full of themselves.

Georgetown had the arrogance assume it would be the de facto head of the New Big East and would have the final say on every major decision, including the addition of new members.

Say what you want about Larry Williams, but he was instrumental in putting Georgetown in its place in the beginning.

[jsglow]

Here's another thing to understand about the current conference.  Two of the new programs owe their invitation primarily to Marquette. No ifs ands or buts.  And they know it.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Georgetown had the arrogance assume it would be the de facto head of the New Big East and would have the final say on every major decision, including the addition of new members.

Say what you want about Larry Williams, but he was instrumental in putting Georgetown in its place in the beginning.

One of Hunt’s better articles from the history files. Unsung on MUs side was Mike Broeker as well.

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/bigeast14-d7815om-183439151.html/

[jsglow]

One of Hunt’s better articles from the history files. Unsung on MUs side was Mike Broeker as well.

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/bigeast14-d7815om-183439151.html/

Yep.  Mike worked hard on it.

I've told you guys the private jet flight story back and forth from Lexington to NYC, yes?  It was very cool to be real time in the loop as all of that was going down.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I think that's a fair way to look at things, though. When I think of "old" Big East, I think Syracuse, UConn, and Georgetown. They've been around forever and were a big part of building the basketball brand that the conference became known for. I don't know that I'd consider them to be too full of themselves.

Other than two of those three were ones who did and wanted to rip it apart. I will take Dave Gavitt and Providence as the brand builder.

[Galway Eagle]

I think that's a fair way to look at things, though. When I think of "old" Big East, I think Syracuse, UConn, and Georgetown. They've been around forever and were a big part of building the basketball brand that the conference became known for. I don't know that I'd consider them to be too full of themselves.

Being the standard barrer is different than being a school people associate with the conference. We seemed to be head and shoulders above everyone going into that first season while Georgetown seemed to be falling and Nova had majorly fallen a peg or two.

Fast forward 9 months and Vander leaves, McKay transfers, Duane breaks his foot then we’re talking about an entirely different situation but from that March 22nd date that they keep referring to we were supposed to be the standard barrer.

[Eye]

Here's my response to the person who sent me the link FWIW:

Fantastic article. MU also tied for its only BE title the same day as that Gtown-cuse game by winning at St. John's on a Vander Blue shot.  MU and Gtown very similar from '06 to '14. MU made 8 straight tourney's '06 to '13, 3 straight Sweet 16s '11 to '13, lost in regional final to cuse in '13 in the old Big East. Then Brent pulled a Brent at the 1st sign of any turbulence. Wojo seems to have things headed in the right direction and has a big recruiting class coming next year. For the new league to peak, top 4 need to be SJU, Gtown, nova and MU (St. John's was my team in the 80s Big East, DePaul is a lost cause until further notice, I'd still like to see UConn give up the pipe dream of FB and rejoin the league, a SJU - Gtown and MU - DePaul weeknight DH with all of them in the top 10 is my big picture dream someday). Most of the league very happy with they are now. Will have a much better gauge on where SJU is 2 1/2 days from now. DePaul at least finally got a new gym. Surprised with how well the new league has gone. No brainer to go to the BKB only league. Did the half BKB, half small-school FB league from '96 to '05. They aren't any good at FB either and do nothing but drag the BKB down. Back to Gtown - one thing always thought from a distance was that I think JT3 tried to change his style of play in '10 to faster after the tourney results in '08 and '09. Out of his comfort zone, but thought it was the way to improve late-season results. And Ohio happened, and he went back to the way he was more comfortable with, which led to getting back to the tourney, but seemed to have its limits. Then FGCU happened, which was the beginning of the end. Going to post a link to this on both MU sites. Would be surprised if it doesn't generate a lot of discussion. Thanks for the link, hope you have a good Thanksgiving and Go Big East.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Fantastic article and incredible insight.  Thanks for sharing. 

This current version of the Big East has been dominated by Villanova, but it was able to reaffirm itself as a top-power basketball conference thanks to the backbone of the league in Butler, Creighton and Xavier - the three new additions.  Many were skeptical about their additions, due to their "mid-major" labels when they were added from A-10 and MVC, respectively.  However, not only did they continue their basketball success, but they also helped maintain the strength of the Big East brand while Marquette, Georgetown and St. Johns were effectively rebuilding.  Seton Hall and Providence were incredibly helped by the defections, as it allowed fewer power programs to compete against, and now both have become top-25/35 programs in the country. 

With specific regards to Georgetown, spot on analysis as to how they fell hard.  I give GT a lot of credit for moving on from Thompson, as there was undoubtedly a high amount of political pressure to both keep him and move on from him.  Ewing, IMO, was a compromise selection from both factions within the school and program.  It will be interesting to see how he does for sure.

I think it will also be fascinating to see how the tenures of Mullin and Ewing play out long-term.  Both coaches arrived in rebuilding stages, but both took different approaches to scheduling.  Mullin continued to schedule tough games, even when the team was gutted, in order to sell recruits on playing big-time opponents.  Ewing, conversely, scheduled nothing but cupcakes this year - valuing winning over matchups, in order to get recruits here.  Mullin has SJ 5-0 in year three, but there has been considerable roster turnover in each season.

[muwarrior69]

Here's my response to the person who sent me the link FWIW:

Fantastic article. MU also tied for its only BE title the same day as that Gtown-cuse game by winning at St. John's on a Vander Blue shot.  MU and Gtown very similar from '06 to '14. MU made 8 straight tourney's '06 to '13, 3 straight Sweet 16s '11 to '13, lost in regional final to cuse in '13 in the old Big East. Then Brent pulled a Brent at the 1st sign of any turbulence. Wojo seems to have things headed in the right direction and has a big recruiting class coming next year. For the new league to peak, top 4 need to be SJU, Gtown, nova and MU (St. John's was my team in the 80s Big East, DePaul is a lost cause until further notice, I'd still like to see UConn give up the pipe dream of FB and rejoin the league, a SJU - Gtown and MU - DePaul weeknight DH with all of them in the top 10 is my big picture dream someday). Most of the league very happy with they are now. Will have a much better gauge on where SJU is 2 1/2 days from now. DePaul at least finally got a new gym. Surprised with how well the new league has gone. No brainer to go to the BKB only league. Did the half BKB, half small-school FB league from '96 to '05. They aren't any good at FB either and do nothing but drag the BKB down. Back to Gtown - one thing always thought from a distance was that I think JT3 tried to change his style of play in '10 to faster after the tourney results in '08 and '09. Out of his comfort zone, but thought it was the way to improve late-season results. And Ohio happened, and he went back to the way he was more comfortable with, which led to getting back to the tourney, but seemed to have its limits. Then FGCU happened, which was the beginning of the end. Going to post a link to this on both MU sites. Would be surprised if it doesn't generate a lot of discussion. Thanks for the link, hope you have a good Thanksgiving and Go Big East.

Why? I am sure the other six schools would disagree. Sure MU, Gtown and Nova are the only schools to win a National Championship, but Xavier and Butler have had stellar success the past 10-15 years.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Here's another thing to understand about the current conference.  Two of the new programs owe their invitation primarily to Marquette. No ifs ands or buts.  And they know it.

Creighton & Butler?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Creighton & Butler?

Correct

[dgies9156]

Great article but a couple of thoughts:

1) The authors at Hoyasaxa ought to take a second look at Indiana these days. Indiana is kinda in the same shape as Georgetown is. Tommy is gone and their new coach is in a rebuild.

2) One of the hardest things to do in college coaching is break with tradition. We held on longer than we should have with Hank and Rick -- a  decision that sent us in a tailspin that lasted more than a decade. North Carolina never should have gone to Bill Guthridge. Ditto DePaul and the Meyer family. At some point a school has to recognize that Al, JTII, Dean and Ray are gone and go to a fresh start. That's the biggest single lesson from our failure. I suspect Duke knows it as well.

3) Something really overlooked that showed Hoyasaxa was at the top of their game is the role of assistant coaches. They figured out what most college basketball writers didn't. That there's only seven days in a week and a college coach could not do it by himself. Ewing better have hired world class coaches to assist him. Part of Wojo's rebuilding success has been Stan and certainly any other major D1 basketball coach can say the same thing. I would add that the Hillbilly knew the same thing and brought Jerry Wainwright in to help him out on the bench.

4) They also are right-on about the need for Georgetown to recruit the DC area, just like we have to win the recruiting battles for the State of Wisconsin against the red rodent. It's why DePaul has to win Chicago over -- a tough job given the number of truly shady coaches in the city -- and why Michigan State controls Michigan talent. Once you have protected your living room and front yard, you can build a second home chasing high 4 stars and 5 stars.

5) Overall, a very good assessment of Georgetown's situation. A mention of a Jesuit brother from Milwaukee would have been nice but I'm not completely sure Hoyasaxa remembers us. Whoever wrote it knows college basketball WELL!

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

North Carolina never should have gone to Bill Guthridge.

This should not have been included in your post.  The Guthridge move was perfect.  Thought of as temporary, retained the players and went to two final fours.  No one thought he was the perm option but a bridge to the next coach and it out of the way quickly.

The Doherty hire on the other hand....

[rocket surgeon]

  " We held on longer than we should have with Hank and Rick -- a  decision that sent us in a tailspin that lasted more than a decade."

  my opinion-

    i think rick got a raw deal.  if we would have given him a little more time?  he was a coach and a players coach.  ok, i could stand to be corrected if one were to make the argument that he 1)matured as a coach and/or 2) after MU, he coached with a chip on his shoulder or 3)milwaukee's pizza all sucked except zaffiros

  as for hank-he was a great guy, knew basketball as well as anyone but lacked the "pizzazz" of al.   they just forgot to tell prospective recruits that hank was the X's and O's guy.  al did the rest

    this may have been beat up in the past, but i never tire of hearing the stories

[Galway Eagle]

  " We held on longer than we should have with Hank and Rick -- a  decision that sent us in a tailspin that lasted more than a decade."

  my opinion-

    i think rick got a raw deal.  if we would have given him a little more time?  he was a coach and a players coach.  ok, i could stand to be corrected if one were to make the argument that he 1)matured as a coach and/or 2) after MU, he coached with a chip on his shoulder or 3)milwaukee's pizza all sucked except zaffiros

  as for hank-he was a great guy, knew basketball as well as anyone but lacked the "pizzazz" of al.   they just forgot to tell prospective recruits that hank was the X's and O's guy.  al did the rest

    this may have been beat up in the past, but i never tire of hearing the stories

Didn’t rick leave us?

[warriorchick]

Didn’t rick leave us?

In the same way a CEO leaves to "spend more time with his family".

[4everwarriors]

Technically, Rick left. In fact, he became the Bucks third assistant coach and made less money than being head coach at MU. The reality was he took a lot of heat and felt the temp rising. Three straight NIT appearances were not good enough along with whiffin’ on Wolf and Ricky. Rick’s buddy Don Nelson helped him save face before Rick either keeled over or got chit canned, ai na?

[Herman Cain]

Technically, Rick left. In fact, he became the Bucks third assistant coach and made less money than being head coach at MU. The reality was he took a lot of heat and felt the temp rising. Three straight NIT appearances were not good enough along with whiffin’ on Wolf and Ricky. Rick’s buddy Don Nelson helped him save face before Rick either keeled over or got chit canned, ai na?

I still think if Dwayne Johnson would have stayed eligible the Rick MU story may have had a different ending.

[Eye]

Why? I am sure the other six schools would disagree. Sure MU, Gtown and Nova are the only schools to win a National Championship, but Xavier and Butler have had stellar success the past 10-15 years.

Peak of the old Big East was the mid 80s when SJU, Gtown and nova were all national-level good in major media markets. MU has more of a national basketball name than the remaining crew (DePaul once again is a lost cause until further notice).

[real chili 83]

Say what you want about Larry Williams, but he was instrumental in putting Georgetown in its place in the beginning.

That was well done on his part.  He was otherwise a trainwreck.  Just the wrong job for him.

[jsglow]

That was well done on his part.  He was otherwise a trainwreck.  Just the wrong job for him.

Larry's a corporate attorney by trade.  That negotiation skill set and his ability to bring a large 'deal' together was his greatest attribute.  As others have said, he was less skilled at other aspects of his job but was perhaps the most significant player in the creation of the NBE.  This is not hyperbole and the deal surely wouldn't have happened without other like minded individuals, but his ability to guide the key players through the process was critical in the endeavor.  #mubb fans should forever appreciate that effort. 

[GGGG]

1. This article gives Georgetown too much credit for the formation of the new big east. My understanding is that they were trying to angle into the ACC as a non football member.

2. Rick leaving Marquette was best for both parties. Both need to break from their past.

[Galway Eagle]

Peak of the old Big East was the mid 80s when SJU, Gtown and nova were all national-level good in major media markets. MU has more of a national basketball name than the remaining crew (DePaul once again is a lost cause until further notice).

Wait that was the peak of the big east? 05-13 has 9 final fours with 2 championships. Not to mention getting 11 teams into the tournament sort of disagrees.  That era was the peak for gtown and SJU without a doubt but not sure I agree that it was the peak of the big east

[jsglow]

1. This article gives Georgetown too much credit for the formation of the new big east. My understanding is that they were trying to angle into the ACC as a non football member.

2. Rick leaving Marquette was best for both parties. Both need to break from their past.

Yes to both.

[dgies9156]

This should not have been included in your post.  The Guthridge move was perfect.  Thought of as temporary, retained the players and went to two final fours.  No one thought he was the perm option but a bridge to the next coach and it out of the way quickly.

The Doherty hire on the other hand....

Agree to disagree on Guthridge. Bill Guthridge was their Hank Raymonds. A tremendous "X's and "O"s guy but he could not recruit. From everything I read about him, he had the same level of class Hank did, which was more in his pinky than most people have in their entire body.

Both were fine men who just simply were not ready to be head coaches and recruit at what many in here call the "elite" level of college basketball. Coach Guthridge won primarily with Coach Smith's team and Coach Raymonds won with Coach McGuire's teams.

Now Doherty on the other hand was their Majerus. Both had ties to the program and neither was ready yet to take command of a program with aspirations of gaining and maintaining elite level status.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Larry's a corporate attorney by trade.  That negotiation skill set and his ability to bring a large 'deal' together was his greatest attribute.  As others have said, he was less skilled at other aspects of his job but was perhaps the most significant player in the creation of the NBE.  This is not hyperbole and the deal surely wouldn't have happened without other like minded individuals, but his ability to guide the key players through the process was critical in the endeavor.  #mubb fans should forever appreciate that effort.

Your kidding right?  Its not like it was the oppenheimer project!  Smh

[BossplayaOtto]

Wait that was the peak of the big east? 05-13 has 9 final fours with 2 championships. Not to mention getting 11 teams into the tournament sort of disagrees.  That era was the peak for gtown and SJU without a doubt but not sure I agree that it was the peak of the big east

04-13 was certainly an impressive time for the BE and IMO the 2011 BE was the strongest conference top-to-bottom in history, (& since MU was involved for much of it, my favorite era) but regarding the peak of the BE, in 1984 and 1985 the Big East had back-to-back champs and 4 F4 teams including a record 3 F4 teams and both semifinalists in 85.

Stated differently, one-third of the conference (3 of 9 teams) made the F4 in 1985.

The BE added 3 additional National finalists in 82, 87 & 89.

So from 82-89, 7 F4 teams, 2 national champions along with 4 runners up. Two-thirds of the conference (6 out of 9) made the F4 during that period and 5 different programs made the championship game.

Both eras are impressive but 1985 seems to be the peak of the BE with 2011 the peak of the “modern” era.

[Avenue Commons]

Is there another program that has a more over inflated view of their program than Georgetown?

“One would have been reluctant to named any school other than Georgetown University as the standard bearer of the new, yet old Big East conference heading into March of that season.”

How about a team that made 10/12 NCAA appearances, and shared that big east title that year? That had a 2 sweet 16s, an elite 8 and final 4

Georgetown made 9/13 NCAA appearances during the 2001-2013 stretch. 2 sweet 16s and a final 4

Villanova made 8/9 during a 2005-2013 stretch. A sweet 16 elite 8 and final 4

But in Georgetown’s eyes they were head and shoulders above the rest of the league going into the new BE. Can’t stand their fans like that one guy who predicted a 3 seed on here and then disappeared in shame at the end of the season.

Georgetown is one of the great brand names in all of college sports. They are in the nation's capital and one of the biggest media markets (Baltimore/DC). Two of the greatest players of the last 30 years (AI and Ewing) are alumns along with good to great players like Jeff Green and Dikembe Mutumobo. In relation to us, they are also the crown jewel among Jesuit schools. Perhaps inarguably the "best" Catholic college/university in the nation. They may be in a down cycle, but Georgetown was and is a top program and the Big East is lucky to have retained GTown. If I remember correctly, there was talk of the Hoyas maybe not going along with the rest of the Catholic 7. Bottom line is the Big East is light years better with Georgetown in the league.

[naginiF]

I still think if Dwayne Johnson would have stayed eligible the Rick MU story may have had a different ending.

If he still has eligibility we need to make space for him #BEastReadyBody/#unbelievableNeck/#greatfamily

[GGGG]

Your kidding right?  Its not like it was the oppenheimer project!  Smh

WTF is the Oppenheimer Project?

Lol. Your idiocy knows no bounds.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

WTF is the Oppenheimer Project?

Lol. Your idiocy knows no bounds.

Lol
Manhattan project.

Jsglow giving over dramatic props to an individual being involved with 6 other like minded institutions that really have only 1 option is even more idiotic tho.  They then picked the three institutions that everyone and their brother had assumed and mentuoned they would.  Yes the new BE has turned out well but its not like they did anything revolutionary or differnet from the assumption that they would do. Lastly,  im not sure Williams involvement was any more than 1/7th of the ads efforts.

[Eldon]

Georgetown is one of the great brand names in all of college sports. They are in the nation's capital and one of the biggest media markets (Baltimore/DC). Two of the greatest players of the last 30 years (AI and Ewing) are alumns along with good to great players like Jeff Green and Dikembe Mutumobo. In relation to us, they are also the crown jewel among Jesuit schools. Perhaps inarguably the "best" Catholic college/university in the nation. They may be in a down cycle, but Georgetown was and is a top program and the Big East is lucky to have retained GTown. If I remember correctly, there was talk of the Hoyas maybe not going along with the rest of the Catholic 7. Bottom line is the Big East is light years better with Georgetown in the league.

Yup

Remember that this banner was at a GTown game:



Looking at it again, I just realized that the Georgetown dude is front and center.

[jsglow]

Lol
Manhattan project.

Jsglow giving over dramatic props to an individual being involved with 6 other like minded institutions that really have only 1 option is even more idiotic tho.  They then picked the three institutions that everyone and their brother had assumed and mentuoned they would.  Yes the new BE has turned out well but its not like they did anything revolutionary or differnet from the assumption that they would do. Lastly,  im not sure Williams involvement was any more than 1/7th of the ads efforts.

I was there in real time. Like minded? Ha. Not to start this discussion but watch the Senate work on tax cuts why doncha. It was very difficult.  Georgetown was an opposing force for a long time.  And Larry was critical to the process and ultimate success.  Those are simply facts. Sorry it doesn't fit some preconceived notions about it you might hold. Have an awesome day!