MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: NersEllenson on November 12, 2013, 06:35:37 PM
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Let the debate begin. Seen more fluid play from Dawson in 5 minutes than I've seen from De Will in 2 years. De Will will be a good backup, and possible spot starter in a defender role.
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Dawson then Duane when ready.
Dawson just creates. Derrick does virtually nothing.
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Dawson has shown more in 5 minutes than De Wilson thus far this season.
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Dawson then Duane when ready.
Dawson just creates. Derrick does virtually nothing.
Should be the case, yet think Dawson very well might have been a major sleeper underrated recruit. Could be more challenging for Du Wilson to get starting PG spot than we all anticipated..
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Not yet.
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Dawson and Burton both looking great!!
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Dawson looks so comfortable out there, just needs the minutes to figure it all out. Derrick has high major work ethic but doesn't have D1 talent.
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Yeah, John is making some plays. Nice feeds inside. I like his game. Oh, and he already drove and scored.
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Dawson has shown more in 5 minutes than De Wilson thus far this season.
Except that Grambling scored 20 in 5 minutes while Dawson was out there. 9 in 13 while Wilson in there. Damn facts.
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Wrong. Derrick was out there for a lot of the burst too. Dawson came back in a second time.
So not the damn facts.
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It will be what Buzz wants it to be.
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The big asterisk is .. we're playing Grambling who is 30 games in to a 58 game losing streak, if you believe kenpom.
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JD is doin it
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Not yet.
This. But that doesn't mean it's too long from now.
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As of the first half I'd take my chances of Dawson and Mayo. Wilson/Thomas yet to score a fg in a game.
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The big asterisk is .. we're playing Grambling who is 30 games in to a 58 game losing streak, if you believe kenpom.
We can asterisk it all we want, but the reality is both Dawson and Derrick are playing against the same crappy team...and Dawson has looked immensely better than anything I've seen from Derrick in his 2 years here - and I hate to pile on our kids as I they all work their ass off and are just kids.
Now yes, it is Grambling - but I'll tell you what - Dawson has the look of a better point guard than we've had here since Diener. Yes...a huge statement...but he's making passes that are Magic Johnson good.
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Dawson was slept on..... Hes about to open eyes.... quickly...
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Dawson has a fluid shot and good looks in his passes.
Though De Wil just had a nice pass to SJTj
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DeWilson playing like I want a PG to play in the second half. His defense and rebounding are better than Dawson's.....right now. I'm not saying that DeWilson is the answer all year at the point. Right now, he is the best option to start.
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DeWilson playing like I want a PG to play in the second half. His defense and rebounding are better than Dawson's.....right now. I'm not saying that DeWilson is the answer all year at the point. Right now, he is the best option to start.
+1. I get that everyone wants the shiny new toy, but for now, at least, De Wilson should be starting.
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What do you Guys think about this John Dawson Kid......
He's got Size... Court Vision.... No look passes... Handle.... A nice looking Jumper... Pushed the ball well... Didn't Turn it over.... and had a beautiful spin move.....
Set up his men well.... and is only 18 years old....
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Did you need a separate thread for this? You already commented in the other thread about JD
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Jebus .. Everyone scores a bucket but Derrick. 10 assists to hang his hat on, though.
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He will be good. Scoring will come....I think.
Seriously, he will lead us. Saturday, I either eat those words, or DW comes through.
Remember how a bunch of folks could not wrap their head around Junior last year? Buzz could. We went to the E8. I trust Buzz.
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I don't see how you can make any evaluations from this game. A complete waste of
time. St. Thomas college in St. Paul can beat that team
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What do you Guys think about this John Dawson Kid......
He's got Size... Court Vision.... No look passes... Handle.... A nice looking Jumper... Pushed the ball well... Didn't Turn it over.... and had a beautiful spin move.....
Set up his men well.... and is only 18 years old....
Had 2 turnovers.
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Mount Mary could be them.
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I don't see how you can make any evaluations from this game.
Agree with that. The game may have given some players confidence, but otherwise the stats are pretty meaningless.
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I don't see how you can make any evaluations from this game. A complete waste of
time. St. Thomas college in St. Paul can beat that team
Agree Grambling probably not any better than a team from St. Thomas - but the fact remains Dawson and Derrick Wilson played against the same team/level of competition.
I'm not saying Derrick is awful - just saying that he's not the future at PG, nor will he give you any real value add. Dawson is going to be a player - he's a fluid athlete, sees the floor great, very good form on his jumper - everything you'd want to see in a PG - he has. Time will bear this out. Book it.
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Dawson just creates. Derrick does virtually nothing.
I suspect that Buzz, unlike the unsophisticated fan, considers defense in player evaluation.
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Derek runs the team better right now. Ergo, he starts right now. I can't predict if he will be starting all year. I just know for damn sure I do not want Dawson making his first start against Craft on Saturday. If Buzz were to make the change now, it would be the dumbest decision he has made in his tenure at MU. To suggest the change be made now means you simply don't understand basketball.
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I suspect that Buzz, unlike the unsophisticated fan, considers defense in player evaluation.
But didn't they play against the same defense?
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I think everyone is over estimating the PG abilities of freshman Duane Wilson. I look for him to provide some scoring punch when he returns but Dawson and Derrick will be running the point. Remember when everyone was healthy Gardner said Dawson was the best freshman. Duane may grow into a floor general role but in my mind he's always been a combo.
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But didn't they play against the same defense?
"Defense"- when the other team has the ball and you're trying to stop them from scoring. I know, its a real complicated concept. Basketball is not just played on one side of the court.
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Derek runs the team better right now. Ergo, he starts right now. I can't predict if he will be starting all year. I just know for damn sure I do not want Dawson making his first start against Craft on Saturday. If Buzz were to make the change now, it would be the dumbest decision he has made in his tenure at MU. To suggest the change be made now means you simply don't understand basketball.
I agree that Saturday is not the time to elevate Dawson - hell he may not start all year - but I suspect he'll be playing more minutes than D-Will as the year goes on. WAY more upside.
I suspect that Buzz, unlike the unsophisticated fan, considers defense in player evaluation.
I suspect that you'll see Buzz play Dawson more and more minutes as the season goes on. Only an unsophisticated fan would say Derrick Wilson has more upside at PG than Dawson.
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I agree that Saturday is not the time to elevate Dawson - hell he may not start all year - but I suspect he'll be playing more minutes than D-Will as the year goes on. WAY more upside.
But didn't you start this thread stating "Dawson "needs" to be the starting PG". "needs" indicates the present tense. Sounds like somebody is moving goal posts.
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Remember when everyone was healthy Gardner said Dawson was the best freshman.
I thought the consensus was JuJuan Johnson being the best freshman. I think Davante said that at media day.
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"Defense"- when the other team has the ball and you're trying to stop them from scoring. I know, its a real complicated concept. Basketball is not just played on one side of the court.
wow. what a dick. it's totally impossible that someone reads your first post and think that it refers to the defense MU is playing against. that's such a dumb thought. how the hell could anyone be so idiotic to interpret your post in a different way? please please forgive me.
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But didn't you start this thread stating "Dawson "needs" to be the starting PG". "needs" indicates the present tense. Sounds like somebody is moving goal posts.
Okay self proclaimed "sophisticated" basketball mind - come back and talk sh$t when Dawson takes over the role sooner than later - or even if he doesn't start - watch the minute usage between the two guards...Dawson will begin to get more...and you'll see him on the floor during crunch time...which is saying a lot for a freshman. Only way he doesn't is if Buzz feels a deep loyalty to the veteran.
Starting a freshman in an environment like what Saturday will be - isn't necessary when you have the vet Derrick who is serviceable....should be telling to see if Buzz gives Dawson minutes against OSU to get a true pulse on how high he is on Dawson...you see even 15 minutes out of Dawson on Saturday - Buzz likes him a lot.
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Near the end of the game, on the radio broadcast, Homer said something like "When Duane Wilson comes back this season...." and then corrected himself to say "IF he comes back this season." Is this a legitimate concern? I guess I am not aware of the severity of his injury.
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wow. what a dick. it's totally impossible that someone reads your first post and think that it refers to the defense MU is playing against. that's such a dumb thought. how the hell could anyone be so idiotic to interpret your post in a different way? please please forgive me.
I guess its possible, but such a person would have to be a real moron.
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Near the end of the game, on the radio broadcast, Homer said something like "When Duane Wilson comes back this season...." and then corrected himself to say "IF he comes back this season." Is this a legitimate concern? I guess I am not aware of the severity of his injury.
I hope he redshirts. Junior wasted his freshman year.
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you see even 15 minutes out of Dawson on Saturday - Buzz likes him a lot.
We've now moved from "Dawson needs to be the starter" to "Buzz likes him a lot".
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I guess its possible, but such a person would have to be a real moron.
i may have interpreted your first post incorrectly. but i definitely got your second post spot-on.
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Anybody else notice how much more aggressive Burton was than Jamil? He needs to be starting at the 4.
Also, Todd has unturned the corner that he turned against Southern, and Jake is now a sniper.
Agreed?
See how stupid it looks to make generalizations about players based on a cupcake opponent?
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Anybody else notice how much more aggressive Burton was than Jamil? He needs to be starting at the 4.
Also, Todd has unturned the corner that he turned against Southern, and Jake is now a sniper.
Agreed?
See how stupid it looks to make generalizations about players based on a cupcake opponent?
The unsophisticated fan tends to overreact.
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Dawson played very well. He demonstrated leadership and creativity. Great passing on the break. HOWEVER, all he showed is that he's worthy of continuing to get minutes. he's still a freshman. If he gets devoured on Saturday the thread will change dramatically.
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Dawson played very well. He demonstrated leadership and creativity. Great passing on the break. HOWEVER, all he showed is that he's worthy of continuing to get minutes. he's still a freshman. If he gets devoured on Saturday the thread will change dramatically.
true lets not put the cart ahead of the horse....
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I missed the game and came to Scoop to check out what happened and I read about the remarkable offensive display by John Dawson. So I go to check the box score and what I come to find out that this thread happened because Dawson scored 2 points? Wow! What an offensive dynamo!
He was outperformed by Derrick in EVERY OTHER CATEGORY.
What is going on here? ::)
Don't get me wrong, I hope John Dawson becomes a reliable player for us but this thread is batsh!t crazy.
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I missed the game
Start up the DVR. The spot on the carpet is still wet with my drool from Dawson's passing.
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Start up the DVR. The spot on the carpet is still wet with my drool from Dawson's passing.
Unfortunately I am away from home for work for the rest of the week. I did record the game and intend to watch when I get back.
I don't doubt Dawson looked good and am glad that he did. Maybe just a tad premature to name him as the starter after a decent game against one of the worst teams in college basketball.
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Including tonight's game, Derrick Wilson has scored 61 points in his college career. Offensively, we're playing 4 against 5 when he's in the game.
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Including tonight's game, Derrick Wilson has scored 61 points in his college career. Offensively, we're playing 4 against 5 when he's in the game.
You realize that there is more to offense than scoring right?
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Including tonight's game, Derrick Wilson has scored 61 points in his college career. Offensively, we're playing 4 against 5 when he's in the game.
Good thing he got us 10 assists. That's 20 points at the very least. Then take into account the passes he made that led to free throws.
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Good thing he got us 10 assists. That's 20 points at the very least. Then take into account the passes he made that led to free throws.
+1. DeWilson with a 154 ORating and Dawson with a 98 tonight.
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Including tonight's game, Derrick Wilson has scored 61 points in his college career. Offensively, we're playing 4 against 5 when he's in the game.
And this is why being the MU PG sucks. Because once upon a time, someone said "playing Derrick is like 4 on 5" and it becomes this constant mantra even on nights when he looks fantastic running the offense. DeWil had a freaking 10/1 A/T ratio! And yes, Dawson looked good, but it's not like he dropped a triple double, he had 2 freaking points.
Derrick is the starting PG and he should continue to be the starting PG. Dawson has shown he is a capable backup against 2 SWAC teams. But if we're going to elevate him to starting point based on his performance against Grambling, well that's just about the dumbest thing ever said on Scoop. Even worse that so many people jumped on the idiot bandwagon.
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You realize that there is more to offense than scoring right?
Only the sophisticated fan realizes there's more to offense than scoring
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And this is why being the MU PG sucks. Because once upon a time, someone said "playing Derrick is like 4 on 5" and it becomes this constant mantra even on nights when he looks fantastic running the offense. DeWil had a freaking 10/1 A/T ratio! And yes, Dawson looked good, but it's not like he dropped a triple double, he had 2 freaking points.
Derrick is the starting PG and he should continue to be the starting PG. Dawson has shown he is a capable backup against 2 SWAC teams. But if we're going to elevate him to starting point based on his performance against Grambling, well that's just about the dumbest thing ever said on Scoop. Even worse that so many people jumped on the idiot bandwagon.
So we are going to get excited about Derrick Wilson 10 to 1 Turnover to Assist Ratio against Grambling? And FYI Dawson's 2 points are 2 more than Derrick got. There's also something called the eye test - and any "idiot" with a shred of basketball knowledge can see that John Dawson has a much higher ceiling than Derrick Wilson. We've seen 2 years of Derrick, he is what he is - a solid game manager type of PG. Dawson is far more dynamic, creative, and fluid - he can be a difference maker - Derrick? Not so much. We can be good with Derrick at the point - feel we can be great if we get Dawson up and running with 25-30 minutes per game...a few bumps along the way, but come March...it will have been the right decision.
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Anybody else notice how much more aggressive Burton was than Jamil? He needs to be starting at the 4.
Also, Todd has unturned the corner that he turned against Southern, and Jake is now a sniper.
Agreed?
See how stupid it looks to make generalizations about players based on a cupcake opponent?
Pretty funny Wades....by your account after the Southern game - you wouldn't think Todd turned any kind of corner - he didn't pass enough for you. Now against Grambling of course, he goes for 4 assists....so for you...should be safe to say he's turned the corner. K?
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So we are going to get excited about Derrick Wilson 10 to 1 Turnover to Assist Ratio against Grambling? And FYI Dawson's 2 points are 2 more than Derrick got. There's also something called the eye test - and any "idiot" with a shred of basketball knowledge can see that John Dawson has a much higher ceiling than Derrick Wilson. We've seen 2 years of Derrick, he is what he is - a solid game manager type of PG. Dawson is far more dynamic, creative, and fluid - he can be a difference maker - Derrick? Not so much. We can be good with Derrick at the point - feel we can be great if we get Dawson up and running with 25-30 minutes per game...a few bumps along the way, but come March...it will have been the right decision.
This thread goes much longer and he'll have John up to 50 minutes per game.
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Anybody else notice how much more aggressive Burton was than Jamil? He needs to be starting at the 4.
Also, Todd has unturned the corner that he turned against Southern, and Jake is now a sniper.
Agreed?
See how stupid it looks to make generalizations about players based on a cupcake opponent?
I actually thought Todd played extremely well. A very quiet 10 points but did not force anything or take bad shots. Took what the defense gave him and made a lot of nice drive and kicks when the defense closed in on him.
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Personally, I like Derrick running the point more than Dawson. I think he's a better floor general, a better passer, a better defender, and a better leader. Dawson may have a higher ceiling but Derrick is better right now.
Just based on how Buzz has run things in the past, I would be willing to bet money that Derrick will start at PG every game this season and average more minutes than either Dawson or Duane (barring injury of course).
And if that's how Buzz thinks we will win, then I trust it. Buzz is much better at this than all of us combined.
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Personally, I like Derrick running the point more than Dawson. I think he's a better floor general, a better passer, a better defender, and a better leader. Dawson may have a higher ceiling but Derrick is better right now.
Just based on how Buzz has run things in the past, I would be willing to bet money that Derrick will start at PG every game this season and average more minutes than either Dawson or Duane (barring injury of course).
And if that's how Buzz thinks we will win, then I trust it. Buzz is much better at this than all of us combined.
No he is not. He is not "better" from what I have seen. He makes some good decisions but Dawson looks like a natural. Lets not throw around "better" because with what Buzz seems to want to do with this squad both are invaluable.
What I saw from Dawson tonight was he was relaxed and poised and confident with the ball in his hands and directing the offense and has very good passing instincts and ability.
John seems to know and make the entry pass from different angles, uses the bounce pass well and delivers the ball with two hands and right where the Big men can get it and not have to bend down to far and at the right speed.
Derrick is not flashy and very solid and will not make a dumb pass or an errant one and the players are used to receiving the ball from him. But once he picks up his dribble or gets trapped there is not much he can do.
But Dawson to me is able to make most of the passes Derrick cannot and is not as stiff a player. Granted I have only seen the kid once or twice and I am not there in practices and have seen Derrick for three years now.
But John has some explosion and wiggle and is a good spot up shooter as well it looks like. I think he adds a dimension along with Todd Mayo that can play that position well.
Derrick is stronger but not quicker and is a safer player to bring off the bench. But Dawson has better floor presence and command but I am not that coach.
John is still a freshman and it is pointless to haggle right now because Duane Wilson is going to factor in as well. But the college game needs good PG's and Dawson will have his up and downs.
But with the no touch AT ALL RULE that I saw called in the Kentucky vs Mich ST game if that is how they are going to call it, then Steve Taylor, Chris Otule, Devante Gardner, Jamil Wilson and even Deonte Burton who all have decent hands on the catch should have a field day with these passing guards.
The Ball movement albeit was Grambling ST was great tonight as was the cutting and slashing and attacking the rim and running the floor.
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I actually thought Todd played extremely well. A very quiet 10 points but did not force anything or take bad shots. Took what the defense gave him and made a lot of nice drive and kicks when the defense closed in on him.
Only the sophisticated fan realizes there's more to offense than scoring
Yes but it depends on what position you play. Both Derrick and John got their teammates involved.
I take nothing from it other than to say I really liked what Dawson showed us and Deonte as well. Even Burton's miss shots were impressive.
This team can only get better if they can clean up their free throw shooting and adapt to this really weird no touch at all rules in the game where you cannot put a hand on your man at all, not even the forearm bar in the paint or on the post up!
Steve Taylor needs to be in the gym night and day getting a solid quick post game...so should Jamil. Devante has that down to a T.
But you will be able to operate down low now and you need a PG who can deliver that quick entry and then move and space the floor and open up slashing lanes or spot up opportunities in the half court.
I like the quick pass motion offense this year. It fits the players style.
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for dawson and wilson to even be spoken of in the same scentence speaks volumes..... Imagin when Dawson is a junior with 3 years under Buzzes system.... he maybe the best pg we've had in a long time.... hes got the size and handles... love it
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Okay self proclaimed "sophisticated" basketball mind - come back and talk sh$t when Dawson takes over the role sooner than later - or even if he doesn't start - watch the minute usage between the two guards...Dawson will begin to get more...and you'll see him on the floor during crunch time...which is saying a lot for a freshman. Only way he doesn't is if Buzz feels a deep loyalty to the veteran.
Starting a freshman in an environment like what Saturday will be - isn't necessary when you have the vet Derrick who is serviceable....should be telling to see if Buzz gives Dawson minutes against OSU to get a true pulse on how high he is on Dawson...you see even 15 minutes out of Dawson on Saturday - Buzz likes him a lot.
I'm not as bullish on Dawson as you are.
I don't think he'll play that much, especially in conference play.
How do you want to measure this, and what are the stakes for a wager?
Minutes played? Points Scored? Blackhearts stats? Henry Sugar's stats?
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Okay, I'll try to explain this, complete with (very simple) diagrams. I know a lot of people will skip the lengthy post, or gloss over for minor points they can dissect, but if you are going to push the Dawson for PG argument, I'm really going to try to tell you why it hasn't happened and likely won't happen any time soon.
First things first. Dawson is a freshman. I know, some people don't care, but I'm pretty sure Buzz does. In his 5 years here, his starting PGs have been senior Dominic James, seniors Maurice Acker and David Cubillan, senior Dwight Buycks, junior Junior Cadougan, and senior Junior Cadougan.
Buzz learned the importance of experience at the point when Tyshawn Taylor decommitted, which led to bringing Acker back and having unexpected success with two midget seniors that were willing to play a role and run a completely different system.
Right now, I get that Dawson is a flashier player. That little lay-off pass to Gardner was a thing of absolute beauty. And I'll also agree that Dawson has a higher individual ceiling. But if any of you think that this year is about individual ceilings, well clearly you don't know Buzz and haven't really learned much of anything in the five-plus years he's been the head coach here.
Here are the metrics people in the pro-Dawson crowd seem to be gravitating to:
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/brewcity77/IMG1.jpg)
Here is the slightest sliver of the type of metric someone like Buzz is going to gravitate to:
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/brewcity77/IMG2.jpg)
What the first indicates is that yes, Dawson scored one more bucket than Wilson. What the second indicates is that Wilson played a more efficient game. Regardless, this is all play against Grambling, so picking a starter based on it is about as accurate as picking the starting lineup based on Pro Am box scores. By the way, had we done that, we would have been trying to find a way to start Dwight Buycks at all five positions. Considering he's making it in the NBA while guys like DJO, Junior, and Blue are toiling overseas, maybe that would have been worth a thought.
Anyway, Buzz is looking at stats that are far above the "who scored more points" stat that seems to be dominating thinking. But more important, this isn't about individual stats! As nice as Dawson's 2-0 scoreline over Wilson is from the first diagram, and as nice as Wilson's 126-92 efficiency line is from the second diagram, neither are really what's relevant here.
What matters is not the player's individual stats or ceiling, it is the team's ceiling. Buzz has never been about creating individuals. He's been about forming a team. Boot Camp is about forming a team. The field trips are about forming a team. The scrimmages, the practices, even the meaningful cupcake games in November and December are all about forming a team. And one of the most important roles on that team is the starting point guard that needs to be Buzz's ambassador on the floor.
Buzz learned this with Acker and Cooby. By the time they were seniors, after Buzz had tried everything he could to run those midgets out of the program, they were willing to do anything to get time on the floor and to get in his good graces. That meant being the embodiment of Buzz on the court. Playing a controlled game, not turning the ball over, making the smart pass, and picking your spots when it came to shooting the ball. Clearly it worked. The next year, Buzz went with the senior in Buycks over the more heralded recruit Cadougan. Finally as a junior, Junior got the reins, and despite practice performances from Derrick (and a few Scoopers calling for DeWil to start), Buzz stuck with the guy that had been in the system and knew what he wanted on the floor.
This year, Derrick becomes that guy. He has been here. He can channel Buzz on the floor better than any of the other options at the point. And unlike many of the others, Derrick is here to play the point. He's not here to try to take over individually, to try to score every bucket, or to be the star. He's here to embody Buzz and he's here to win.
And at the end of the day, that last bit is all that matters. Because as I said above, this isn't about individual ceilings. This is about the team's ceiling. And running a controlled game, running a smart game, and not making mistakes is what Buzz wants out of his point guard because he believes that is what's going to help the team reach their ceiling. Might a starting freshman like Dawson or DuWil when he gets back put up gaudier numbers? Maybe averaging 12 ppg, 5 apg, and 3.5 tpg and looking damn good in the process? Entirely possible. But look at this team's makeup. That guy will take shots away from efficient scorers like Gardner, Jamil, and Mayo. That guy will turn the ball over when we need an extended, controlled possession. That guy will NOT be the guy who makes this the best team it can be.
We all know how this story likely ends. Most likely, this season will end with a loss. With a freshman at the point, no matter how gaudy their statline looks, the odds are a lot better that that loss takes place in St. Louis or Indianapolis. For Marquette to pass the next test, that loss needs to take place in Arlington, and Buzz will do everything he can to make sure that his team is in Arlington, even if that means starting a guy who's going to score less but make the team better in the process.
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Okay, I'll try to explain this, complete with (very simple) diagrams. I know a lot of people will skip the lengthy post, or gloss over for minor points they can dissect, but if you are going to push the Dawson for PG argument, I'm really going to try to tell you why it hasn't happened and likely won't happen any time soon.
First things first. Dawson is a freshman. I know, some people don't care, but I'm pretty sure Buzz does. In his 5 years here, his starting PGs have been senior Dominic James, seniors Maurice Acker and David Cubillan, senior Dwight Buycks, junior Junior Cadougan, and senior Junior Cadougan.
Buzz learned the importance of experience at the point when Tyshawn Taylor decommitted, which led to bringing Acker back and having unexpected success with two midget seniors that were willing to play a role and run a completely different system.
Right now, I get that Dawson is a flashier player. That little lay-off pass to Gardner was a thing of absolute beauty. And I'll also agree that Dawson has a higher individual ceiling. But if any of you think that this year is about individual ceilings, well clearly you don't know Buzz and haven't really learned much of anything in the five-plus years he's been the head coach here.
Here are the metrics people in the pro-Dawson crowd seem to be gravitating to:
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/brewcity77/IMG1.jpg)
Here is the slightest sliver of the type of metric someone like Buzz is going to gravitate to:
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/brewcity77/IMG2.jpg)
What the first indicates is that yes, Dawson scored one more bucket than Wilson. What the second indicates is that Wilson played a more efficient game. Regardless, this is all play against Grambling, so picking a starter based on it is about as accurate as picking the starting lineup based on Pro Am box scores. By the way, had we done that, we would have been trying to find a way to start Dwight Buycks at all five positions. Considering he's making it in the NBA while guys like DJO, Junior, and Blue are toiling overseas, maybe that would have been worth a thought.
Anyway, Buzz is looking at stats that are far above the "who scored more points" stat that seems to be dominating thinking. But more important, this isn't about individual stats! As nice as Dawson's 2-0 scoreline over Wilson is from the first diagram, and as nice as Wilson's 126-92 efficiency line is from the second diagram, neither are really what's relevant here.
What matters is not the player's individual stats or ceiling, it is the team's ceiling. Buzz has never been about creating individuals. He's been about forming a team. Boot Camp is about forming a team. The field trips are about forming a team. The scrimmages, the practices, even the meaningful cupcake games in November and December are all about forming a team. And one of the most important roles on that team is the starting point guard that needs to be Buzz's ambassador on the floor.
Buzz learned this with Acker and Cooby. By the time they were seniors, after Buzz had tried everything he could to run those midgets out of the program, they were willing to do anything to get time on the floor and to get in his good graces. That meant being the embodiment of Buzz on the court. Playing a controlled game, not turning the ball over, making the smart pass, and picking your spots when it came to shooting the ball. Clearly it worked. The next year, Buzz went with the senior in Buycks over the more heralded recruit Cadougan. Finally as a junior, Junior got the reins, and despite practice performances from Derrick (and a few Scoopers calling for DeWil to start), Buzz stuck with the guy that had been in the system and knew what he wanted on the floor.
This year, Derrick becomes that guy. He has been here. He can channel Buzz on the floor better than any of the other options at the point. And unlike many of the others, Derrick is here to play the point. He's not here to try to take over individually, to try to score every bucket, or to be the star. He's here to embody Buzz and he's here to win.
And at the end of the day, that last bit is all that matters. Because as I said above, this isn't about individual ceilings. This is about the team's ceiling. And running a controlled game, running a smart game, and not making mistakes is what Buzz wants out of his point guard because he believes that is what's going to help the team reach their ceiling. Might a starting freshman like Dawson or DuWil when he gets back put up gaudier numbers? Maybe averaging 12 ppg, 5 apg, and 3.5 tpg and looking damn good in the process? Entirely possible. But look at this team's makeup. That guy will take shots away from efficient scorers like Gardner, Jamil, and Mayo. That guy will turn the ball over when we need an extended, controlled possession. That guy will NOT be the guy who makes this the best team it can be.
We all know how this story likely ends. Most likely, this season will end with a loss. With a freshman at the point, no matter how gaudy their statline looks, the odds are a lot better that that loss takes place in St. Louis or Indianapolis. For Marquette to pass the next test, that loss needs to take place in Arlington, and Buzz will do everything he can to make sure that his team is in Arlington, even if that means starting a guy who's going to score less but make the team better in the process.
Dawson has the "it" factor. I don't see it in Derrick Wilson:/
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Where were the cries for Dawson at the starting PG after his 6-minute, 1 point, 1 TO performance against Southern?
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Dawson has the "it" factor. I don't see it in Derrick Wilson:/
Then you are looking at the wrong things.
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This thread goes much longer and he'll have John up to 50 minutes per game.
We tend to like overtime games in conference play. It could happen!
Dawson has the "it" factor. I don't see it in Derrick Wilson:/
Agree. I don't think he will start, but I hope he gets significant minutes, the 50/50 split of tonight would be a good start. Encouraged by the first half when things weren't completely broken down. I think Derrick may have gotten the message that he needs to make plays in the second half when the assists started coming, though Grambling's foul troubles made many of them about as meaningful as Anderson's 11 points.
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Then you are looking at the wrong things.
I get the fact that DeWil runs an efficient offense. I get that he plays very good D. I'm not sold on a freshman running the point either. But with that said......if we're up by a few on Saturday with little time on the clock, who is tOSU going to foul? Right. The guy with the rock. And if the guy with the rock makes only 50% of his free throws we could be looking at a loss that should have been a win.
It'll be interesting to see if we are in that situation this year, if Buzz elects to take Derrick out and go with Mayo and JWil or Jake at the end of a game bringing the ball up, knowing they'll be at the line.
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Dawson has the "it" factor. I don't see it in Derrick Wilson:/
Good lord.
Brewcity makes a fantastic post about why Derrick is a better option this year, using statistical evidence to back it up, and you come back with some tired cliche. "It" factor? WTF is that?
The one thing I have learned with my years on Scoop is that people have absolutely no appreciation for players who don't fill in lines in box score. Remember just last year when people were questioning Trent Lockett? The fact is that Derrick had a major impact on the game yesterday, and yet all people focus on is his lack of scoring. ??? And please stop feeding me the "4 against 5 line." Again, basketball scoring isn't an individual exercise. It is about five people working together as a team.
I said that Wilson looked "fine" after Southern, and from what I saw looked fine against Grambling. Dawson looked good against both teams. But here's the deal, I don't give a flying f*ck about how people look against Southern and Grambling. Let's see what happens against a real team with a real backcourt.
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In the first half I did comment that with the new foul rules, we may get our wish with Derrick on the bench and seeing Dawson and Wilson more.
But then Derrick looked better in the 2nd half with some very nice assists.
We tend to like overtime games in conference play. It could happen!
Agree. I don't think he will start, but I hope he gets significant minutes, the 50/50 split of tonight would be a good start. Encouraged by the first half when things weren't completely broken down. I think Derrick may have gotten the message that he needs to make plays in the second half when the assists started coming, though Grambling's foul troubles made many of them about as meaningful as Anderson's 11 points.
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Good lord.
Brewcity makes a fantastic post about why Derrick is a better option this year, using statistical evidence to back it up, and you come back with some tired cliche. "It" factor? WTF is that?
The one thing I have learned with my years on Scoop is that people have absolutely no appreciation for players who don't fill in lines in box score. Remember just last year when people were questioning Trent Lockett? The fact is that Derrick had a major impact on the game yesterday, and yet all people focus on is his lack of scoring. ??? And please stop feeding me the "4 against 5 line." Again, basketball scoring isn't an individual exercise. It is about five people working together as a team.
I said that Wilson looked "fine" after Southern, and from what I saw looked fine against Grambling. Dawson looked good against both teams. But here's the deal, I don't give a flying f*ck about how people look against Southern and Grambling. Let's see what happens against a real team with a real backcourt.
Well they will find that out in three days against OSU's backcourt of Craft and Smith. All the stats, charts, metrics, graphs, etc fly out the window and it is determined on the court.
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They both played 20 minutes. Derrick 10 assits & 1 turnover. Dawson 6 assists and 2 turnovers. Dawson 2 points vs 0 for Derrick. Rebounds Derrick 5 vs Dawson 4. Steals Derrick 1 Dawson 0. The only thing Dawson did better was score and that was on a nice drive to the basket vs. hitting an outside shot. My guess is that after watching the two play against Ohio St. there will be no more debating on which one is better.
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They both played 20 minutes. Derrick 10 assits & 1 turnover. Dawson 6 assists and 2 turnovers. Dawson 2 points vs 0 for Derrick. Rebounds Derrick 5 vs Dawson 4. Steals Derrick 1 Dawson 0. The only thing Dawson did better was score and that was on a nice drive to the basket vs. hitting an outside shot. My guess is that after watching the two play against Ohio St. there will be no more debating on which one is better.
And Derrick's TO was on the first play of the game. As I recall, it was a miscommunication and he threw it out of bounds.
I eagerly await for Dawson and Duane to struggle at some point as juniors, and for the Scoop community to call for Nick to come in off the bench. Our favorite point guards always seem to be the next ones.
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JD is smoov with it
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Respect the process of derrick wilson, jd will be a solid asset to this team this year doe.
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I'm fine with Derrick out there "not scoring," but we need to have a 2 out there who is a dual threat like Mayo. Jake is a pass it around the horn guy who doesn't ever put the ball on the floor, simply looking to spot up for a 3. Last night's exhibition wasn't the real world. We could have dumped it down to our big guys every time to score. I mean EVERY TIME. In the real world, our big guys will have resistance. I'm hoping Jake's starting is last year's Juan starting. When we can go small, Mayo in the game with Jake is ideal. But starting two guards who can't really create off the dribble seems like a wasted opportunity. I worry about that with good teams like OSU and WI. Where doesn't the guard scoring come from?
A couple of other observations. Don't get too excited about Burton this year. McKay's leaving is certainly his gain, but he is raw. I think he is the perfect kind of guy for Buzz to take to the next level over the years, I just don't know where he fits. To say there was no energy in the place last night would be an understatement, even the Grambling coach seemed disinterested the entire game.
JJJ's shot will be fine. It seems as if some people here are implying he needs to fix/change his shot. Other than a slight "hitch," his shot has good arc and it goes in -- you don't screw with that. He is actually a great shooter. He must have hit 7 threes in a row during shootaround. We sat behind the bench and you could tell he is pressing and just needs to relax and get some confidence. I think he is going to be an unbelievable asset for this team down the road if he can ever learn to play adequate D.
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I'm fine with Derrick out there "not scoring," but we need to have a 2 out there who is a dual threat like Mayo. Jake is a pass it around the horn guy who doesn't ever put the ball on the floor, simply looking to spot up for a 3. Last night's exhibition wasn't the real world. We could have dumped it down to our big guys every time to score. I mean EVERY TIME. In the real world, our big guys will have resistance. I'm hoping Jake's starting is last year's Juan starting. When we can go small, Mayo in the game with Jake is ideal. But starting two guards who can't really create off the dribble seems like a wasted opportunity. I worry about that with good teams like OSU and WI. Where doesn't the guard scoring come from?
A couple of other observations. Don't get too excited about Burton this year. McKay's leaving is certainly his gain, but he is raw. I think he is the perfect kind of guy for Buzz to take to the next level over the years, I just don't know where he fits. To say there was no energy in the place last night would be an understatement, even the Grambling coach seemed disinterested the entire game.
JJJ's shot will be fine. It seems as if some people here are implying he needs to fix/change his shot. Other than a slight "hitch," his shot has good arc and it goes in -- you don't screw with that. He is actually a great shooter. He must have hit 7 threes in a row during shootaround. We sat behind the bench and you could tell he is pressing and just needs to relax and get some confidence. I think he is going to be an unbelievable asset for this team down the road if he can ever learn to play adequate D.
As I have said many times before Jake is a streak shooter. Once he hit that shot he wanted the ball back. The other team has to cover him, because you never want a streak shooter to get going. I also wonder if JJJ is a streak shooter. He did not score the first game and with 30 minutes gone in the second he had not scored, He hit that three and his whole game changed. He went from not scoring to scoring 12 points in maybe a five minute span. DJO would go off in streaks and other teams had to fear him. I am excited about Burton and I have already stated that he is a stud. There will be bad games, but overall he is going to play a lot this year.
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I eagerly await for Dawson and Duane to struggle at some point as juniors, and for the Scoop community to call for Nick to come in off the bench. Our favorite point guards always seem to be the next ones.
Second-string QB syndrome
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Maybe we need to reverse the question:
Is there anything MORE you wanted to see out of Derrick last night?
I mean, he had 10 assists, 5 reb. and only 1 turnover in 20min.
What else do you want to see out of a pass first point guard? If he hit his 2 shots (one just rattled out btw) would everybody suddenly love him? Do you want him to have more points, but less assists? More points and MORE assists?
I'm not really sure what some of you guys want or expect.
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Maybe we need to reverse the question:
Is there anything MORE you wanted to see out of Derrick last night?
I mean, he had 10 assists, 5 reb. and only 1 turnover in 20min.
What else do you want to see out of a pass first point guard? If he hit his 2 shots (one just rattled out btw) would everybody suddenly love him? Do you want him to have more points, but less assists? More points and MORE assists?
I'm not really sure what some of you guys want or expect.
He didn't go to the line so it's not applicable to how he played last night, but I want and expect our PG to be able to make free throws at a good clip. He's going to have the ball at the end of a game and needs to be able to knock them down when he's fouled. Other than that, you're right. He played very well.
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Let's look at it this way...
Last season, Junior Cadougan averaged 8.5 points and 3.8 assists per game. If you count 2 points per assist (which admittedly doesn't account for assists leading to 3s), that means he contributed ~16 ppg, along with 2.5 TO/game.
Is it unreasonable to think that Derrick could, on average, account for 16 points (let's say 4 pts, 6 ast) while also having fewer than 2.5 TO?
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Then you are looking at the wrong things.
What do you think coaches look for when they recruit a kid? Think the "it" factor has anything to do with it? (No pun intended)
I appreciate your in depth analysis and the efficiency ratings, hell, based off of last night, Jake Thomas will be our star this year as he had the highest efficiency rating, right? We all know Jake isn't going to be a star on this team.
Dawson has so much more upside than Derrick, it's comical that some simply cannot, or refuse to see that - out of stubbornness. Derrick looks like a backup PG should...Dawson...what a starter should look like.
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Dawson has so much more upside than Derrick, it's comical that some simply cannot, or refuse to see that - out of stubbornness. Derrick looks like a backup PG should...Dawson...what a starter should look like.
Dawson may have more upside - only time will tell. But Derrick is the better PG right now.
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What do you think coaches look for when they recruit a kid? Think the "it" factor has anything to do with it? (No pun intended)
I appreciate your in depth analysis and the efficiency ratings, hell, based off of last night, Jake Thomas will be our star this year as he had the highest efficiency rating, right? We all know Jake isn't going to be a star on this team.
Dawson has so much more upside than Derrick, it's comical that some simply cannot, or refuse to see that - out of stubbornness. Derrick looks like a backup PG should...Dawson...what a starter should look like.
JJJ has more upside than Mayo. Should he take Mayo's minutes?
Burton has more upside than Jamil. Should Jamil be on the bench in crunch time?
Duane has more upside than Dawson. Should he immediately become the starter when he's healthy?
Having more upside is not the same thing as being better for the team right now.
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I'm not as bullish on Dawson as you are.
I don't think he'll play that much, especially in conference play.
How do you want to measure this, and what are the stakes for a wager?
Minutes played? Points Scored? Blackhearts stats? Henry Sugar's stats?
All of the above...whoever wins the majority of categories...wins bet...if they both win 2 of the categories...call it a push. $100.
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JJJ has more upside than Mayo. Should he take Mayo's minutes?
Burton has more upside than Jamil. Should Jamil be on the bench in crunch time?
Duane has more upside than Dawson. Should he immediately become the starter when he's healthy?
Having more upside is not the same thing as being better for the team right now.
First point - Not sure how you can say Duane has more upside than Dawson...simply based on high school ratings. Buzz himself said Duane had a long way to go....funny he didn't make that comment about Dawson.
As for your other examples - Mayo and Jamil have shown they can produce at this level...at least shown a good number of flashes of being able to produce at this level. Derrick? He's shown he can be a quality backup PG...his best performance to this day still was against Jordan Taylor and UW - that was far and away the most impressive thing we've seen from De-Will. He's a gritty defender, and solid with the ball. Not a playmaker. Dawson has playmaking ability, and the athletic tools to be a very good defender...and I'd say better tools now with the knew rules in place with no hand checking. Derrick's body/physicality are his greatest asset defensively...and that is somewhat mitigated by the new rules.
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What else do you want to see out of a pass first point guard?
I think the answer to this is simple, Guns. Bench time. The sheeple here don't want a pass first point guard because if the guy doesn't score points, they fail to realize his value. That's why Vander Blue got so much stick his first two years. That's why Davante Gardner has been beloved since he arrived even when he clearly wasn't ready on the defensive end. That's why Trent Lockett was underappreciated. That's why Junior was never a fan favorite when he was here but is suddenly the missing link since he's left.
The only think they want out of a pass first point guard is to not have a pass first point guard. They want all the starters to average double-digit points and to only go out when they go cold from the field. Thank god Buzz doesn't think this way, because when you only pay attention to the individual points scored category in the box score, you forget that there's a whole lot more to winning basketball games.
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As I have said many times before Jake is a streak shooter. Once he hit that shot he wanted the ball back. The other team has to cover him, because you never want a streak shooter to get going.
It's easy to shut down a streak shooter like Jake if you need to. He doesn't put the ball on the floor, he doesn't drive, he is a one-trick pony IMO. With other guys on the floor who can drive, he can be an asset. But to me, Jake and Derrick together isn't a high-level D1 recipe. Mayo is a scorer. He can be a streak shooter, which then sets up his drives and finishes. Mayo is just as much of a space creater as Jake, with so much more upside. It's too bad Jake can't play the point. He is a decent passer and plays good D.
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All of the above...whoever wins the majority of categories...wins bet...if they both win 2 of the categories...call it a push. $100.
Oh yes, absolutely.
- Total Minutes Played (season)
- Total Points Scored (season)
- Player Rating (I believe Sugar or Blackheart track this, right?).
- Total Assists (good PG stat, right?)
I don't know if the mods want monetary bets on the site (feel free to correct me mods).
How about a vacation from scoop? (April 2014-October 2014)
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Dawson has so much more upside than Derrick, it's comical that some simply cannot, or refuse to see that - out of stubbornness. Derrick looks like a backup PG should...Dawson...what a starter should look like.
Is it comical if Buzz doesn't see it?
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This thread is hilarious to read through if you read all the 'Pro-Dawson' posts in a hilarious thick Chicago accent. Then it all makes sense.
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Dawson on offense; DWil on defense ala OX and Otule.
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Let's look at it this way...
Last season, Junior Cadougan averaged 8.5 points and 3.8 assists per game. If you count 2 points per assist (which admittedly doesn't account for assists leading to 3s), that means he contributed ~16 ppg, along with 2.5 TO/game.
Is it unreasonable to think that Derrick could, on average, account for 16 points (let's say 4 pts, 6 ast) while also having fewer than 2.5 TO?
Absolutely yes. You are comparing a first-time sophomore starter with a four-year player
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Absolutely yes. You are comparing a first-time sophomore starter with a four-year player
Derrick is a junior.
After the OSU game, this thread will go 20 pages. With these new foul rules, Craft will draw two quick fouls from Derrick, then Dawson. Then the havoc will set in. Can't wait to see the PG matchups on Saturday.
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And Derrick's TO was on the first play of the game. As I recall, it was a miscommunication and he threw it out of bounds.
I eagerly await for Dawson and Duane to struggle at some point as juniors, and for the Scoop community to call for Nick to come in off the bench. Our favorite point guards always seem to be the next ones.
Seriously. It seems the backup PG around here lately is the equivalent of the backup QB in many NFL towns.
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Dawson on offense; DWil on defense ala OX and Otule.
The point to this is that Dawson isn't better than Derrick on the offensive end of the floor.
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Oh yes, absolutely.
- Total Minutes Played (season)
- Total Points Scored (season)
- Player Rating (I believe Sugar or Blackheart track this, right?).
- Total Assists (good PG stat, right?)
I don't know if the mods want monetary bets on the site (feel free to correct me mods).
How about a vacation from scoop? (April 2014-October 2014)
Bolded categories should be based off of Per 40 minute metrics - as only way to measure true head to head comparison. It would be counter-Buzz to bench a vet for a freshman, so you have that going for you as it is..which should point to a victory in the Total Minutes category. Other categories need to be apples to apples.
And yes...an April-October break from Scoop is agreeable...
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The point to this is that Dawson isn't better than Derrick on the offensive end of the floor.
Do you genuinely believe this? And, would you not agree that with the new hand check rules, and limiting of physical play - it takes away Derrick's greatest asset as a defender?
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Why is scoring constantly repeated? It's not even what is being suggested as the difference between the two. Dawson hasn't shown he can score either. Possibly that he isn't afraid to try, but not that he hasn't done it. From a limited sample, he's shown that he understands tempo and isn't afraid to push it, moves more fluidly, isn't get shy about dribbling or passing north-south, and doesn't get scared and pick up his dribble to make a safe pass if a defender is within six feet of him. We'll see if this holds when the competition increases, or if he gets shy or turnover prone instead.
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Why is scoring constantly repeated? It's not even what is being suggested as the difference between the two. Dawson hasn't shown he can score either. Possibly that he isn't afraid to try, but not that he hasn't done it. From a limited sample, he's shown that he understands tempo and isn't afraid to push it, moves more fluidly, isn't get shy about dribbling or passing north-south, and doesn't get scared and pick up his dribble to make a safe pass if a defender is within six feet of him. We'll see if this holds when the competition increases, or if he gets shy or turnover prone instead.
Bingo. His assists last night were a thing of beauty...as was the one drive he did score on..
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Bolded categories should be based off of Per 40 minute metrics - as only way to measure true head to head comparison. It would be counter-Buzz to bench a vet for a freshman, so you have that going for you as it is..which should point to a victory in the Total Minutes category. Other categories need to be apples to apples.
And yes...an April-October break from Scoop is agreeable...
That's bullsh*t Ners. According to that metric, a PG that plays 2 mpg and has 1 assist is better than one that plays 30 mpg and has 10 assists.
I would do an assist to turnover ratio...but you need to have a certain number of assists for the season to even qualify....say 50. Then I would do ppg, with again a certain number of points for qualification....say 50 as well.
If neither qualify, it's a push.
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Do you genuinely believe this? And, would you not agree that with the new hand check rules, and limiting of physical play - it takes away Derrick's greatest asset as a defender?
Yes. Considering that offense is more than scoring, Derrick is the better offensive PG.
And it doesn't look like the hand check rules are hurting Derrick so far. In fact it looks like he is going to great pains to keep his hand off of players...like he was coached or something.
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You realize that there is more to offense than scoring right?
Of course. I just think we're seeing all that Derrick is going to offer whereas Dawson brings a higher ceiling. Good thing we have both guys.
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I was mildly encouraged by Derrick's second half last night. Made more good passes, even penetrated a few times.
To answer the question what do I expect out of my pass-first PG ... I expect him to be at least a threat to score. There's no better example for Marquetters than Tony Miller. He was a 36% shooter. He wasn't a very good FT shooter (under 60% career) and in only one of his 4 seasons did he average double-figures (and that was about 11 pts as a senior). But he knew how to run an offense, he knew how to get into the middle of a defense so he could create for his teammates, and he also knew when it was important for the PG to score -- or at least TRY to score.
I don't expect Derrick to be as good as Tony Miller was, but that's a good template because they are similar athletes with fairly similar backgrounds.
Oh, and even if my PG isn't a great scorer, I want him to have the ability and the balls to take (and preferably make) the 3-pointer that Cadougan made against UConn last year. Can anybody here honestly say they envision Derrick doing that?
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Bolded categories should be based off of Per 40 minute metrics - as only way to measure true head to head comparison. It would be counter-Buzz to bench a vet for a freshman, so you have that going for you as it is..which should point to a victory in the Total Minutes category. Other categories need to be apples to apples.
And yes...an April-October break from Scoop is agreeable...
Fair enough.
MPG
PPG
APG
Player rating (sugar or blackhart)
TIEBREAKER: Conference play Player Rating
6 month vacation... starting the day after MU wins the national title (or loses in the tourny).
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We have a guy to come in and spell DeWil, with little (or no) dropoff. That should be really encouraging.
It is obvious that Dawson has some skills. If he progresses enough over the course of the season that Buzz starts him, cool.
Way to early to bump off DeWil. Those who don't appreciate his complete game are missing the boat.
I am not going to judge either player on a game against Grambling.
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First point - Not sure how you can say Duane has more upside than Dawson...simply based on high school ratings. Buzz himself said Duane had a long way to go....funny he didn't make that comment about Dawson.
Did anyone ask Buzz about Dawson?
As for your other examples - Mayo and Jamil have shown they can produce at this level...at least shown a good number of flashes of being able to produce at this level. Derrick? He's shown he can be a quality backup PG...his best performance to this day still was against Jordan Taylor and UW - that was far and away the most impressive thing we've seen from De-Will. He's a gritty defender, and solid with the ball. Not a playmaker. Dawson has playmaking ability, and the athletic tools to be a very good defender...and I'd say better tools now with the knew rules in place with no hand checking. Derrick's body/physicality are his greatest asset defensively...and that is somewhat mitigated by the new rules.
Interesting that you don't think Duane Wilson has more upside than the other MU PGs but you're ready to make the bolded proclamation above based on seeing Dawson play in 26 minutes of actions, 20 of which came against the worst team in D1.
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Interesting that you don't think Duane Wilson has more upside than the other MU PGs but you're ready to make the bolded proclamation above based on seeing Dawson play in 26 minutes of actions, 20 of which came against the worst team in D1.
Don't want to speak for Ners, but I think Duane's upside is playing more of a combo guard.
Personally, I think he can play PG at this level. But he'd be more of a scoring PG than either John or Derrick.
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Did anyone ask Buzz about Dawson?
Interesting that you don't think Duane Wilson has more upside than the other MU PGs but you're ready to make the bolded proclamation above based on seeing Dawson play in 26 minutes of actions, 20 of which came against the worst team in D1.
Fair point on if anyone asked Buzz about Dawson...I don't recall hearing Buzz commenting on Dawson, but did make the comments on Duane having a long way to go, but having the right approach..
But to your point, I'm not going to measure Dawson against Duane Wilson, till I've seen them play against the same competition...was merely stating that it may not be the landslide some would led to believe that Duane is the better of the two (compared to Dawson).
Sure wish we could be seeing Duane in action.
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It's easy to shut down a streak shooter like Jake if you need to. He doesn't put the ball on the floor, he doesn't drive, he is a one-trick pony IMO. With other guys on the floor who can drive, he can be an asset. But to me, Jake and Derrick together isn't a high-level D1 recipe. Mayo is a scorer. He can be a streak shooter, which then sets up his drives and finishes. Mayo is just as much of a space creater as Jake, with so much more upside. It's too bad Jake can't play the point. He is a decent passer and plays good D.
My point is that the opposing team cannot ignore Thomas when MU is on offense. They would be foolish to back off of Thomas and leave him open. They can at this point back off of Derrick. I suspect as the season comes along Derrick will become a better scorer, but it will not be significant. I can see him averaging about 4 points a game.
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right Dawson was rated off a inflated high school scale.... the kids from New Mexico...... I doubt anyone even seen him play before rating him.... he has a high basketball iq.. and that 25 foot bounce pass was insane.... I stop what im doing and focus on the tv when this kid is on the floor... he will be special...
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Wow. Lengthy discussion. I'm simply pleased that John appears capable of meaningful minutes after two solid performances against SWAC opponents. If that means 15 per game I'll be thrilled.
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What's really funny is that it seems the guy who believes Buzz walks on water also thinks Buzz is an idiot when it comes to managing his point guards. I mean, that has to be it, right? If it's so obvious from the stands and television set that Dawson is the man, then the guy that sees him up close in practice and games every day must be blind, deaf, and flat out stupid to not see what so many Scoopers accept as evident.
I'm glad Buzz isn't an idiot. I'm glad he can see who the better player is. Right now it's Derrick. I'm glad Dawson has been an able backup in our first two games. But this far, that's all he is. Thank you Buzz for realizing that when so many cannot.
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One thing I think we can all agree on - Derrick is the steadiest ball handler we have. But what do we do at the end of games that we're winning? Ball protection is obviously important, but so is the ability to make free throws. Unless Derrick can figure that out he sits in those situations. Mayo, Thomas, Jamil, Davante and someone TBD will be on the floor.
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One thing I think we can all agree on - Derrick is the steadiest ball handler we have. But what do we do at the end of games that we're winning? Ball protection is obviously important, but so is the ability to make free throws. Unless Derrick can figure that out he sits in those situations. Mayo, Thomas, Jamil, Davante and someone TBD will be on the floor.
Exactly Lenny. +1
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What's really funny is that it seems the guy who believes Buzz walks on water also thinks Buzz is an idiot when it comes to managing his point guards. I mean, that has to be it, right? If it's so obvious from the stands and television set that Dawson is the man, then the guy that sees him up close in practice and games every day must be blind, deaf, and flat out stupid to not see what so many Scoopers accept as evident.
I'm glad Buzz isn't an idiot. I'm glad he can see who the better player is. Right now it's Derrick. I'm glad Dawson has been an able backup in our first two games. But this far, that's all he is. Thank you Buzz for realizing that when so many cannot.
Ahh yes....I have been one of Buzz's biggest fans since his first year here and said he was the real deal and had the "it" factor....also said the same about Davante first semester freshman year...said he'd be as good/possibly better than Robert Jackson...all of which were met with ridicule by some...now I say the same about Dawson....and again, some of you feel I'm an idiot for making the statement early on...
And, quite frankly, I have no issue with Buzz - he already gave Dawson 20 minutes (an equal share) as to Derrick in just Game 2 of the season....so....I suspect he sees Dawson's potential - if he didn't...no way he gives him 20 minutes of run....
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Ahh yes....I have been one of Buzz's biggest fans since his first year here and said he was the real deal and had the "it" factor....also said the same about Davante first semester freshman year...said he'd be as good/possibly better than Robert Jackson...all of which were met with ridicule by some...now I say the same about Dawson....and again, some of you feel I'm an idiot for making the statement early on...
And, quite frankly, I have no issue with Buzz - he already gave Dawson 20 minutes (an equal share) as to Derrick in just Game 2 of the season....so....I suspect he sees Dawson's potential - if he didn't...no way he gives him 20 minutes of run....
You've gone from "Dawson needs to be starting PG" to Dawson is the "real deal and has the 'it' factor."
And no one has said you were an "idiot" or has "ridiculed" you for saying that he has potential. So you can stop playing the victim. (a la Chicos) I think pretty much everyone recognizes that he has potential.
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You've gone from "Dawson needs to be starting PG" to Dawson is the "real deal and has the 'it' factor."
And no one has said you were an "idiot" or has "ridiculed" you for saying that he has potential. So you can stop playing the victim. (a la Chicos) I think pretty much everyone recognizes that he has potential.
Sultan, that's not actually fair. Ners has said a lot more than "Dawson needs to be starting"
Now yes, it is Grambling - but I'll tell you what - Dawson has the look of a better point guard than we've had here since Diener. Yes...a huge statement...but he's making passes that are Magic Johnson good.
I agree that Saturday is not the time to elevate Dawson - hell he may not start all year - but I suspect he'll be playing more minutes than D-Will as the year goes on. WAY more upside.
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Heh...my apologies.
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One thing I think we can all agree on - Derrick is the steadiest ball handler we have. But what do we do at the end of games that we're winning? Ball protection is obviously important, but so is the ability to make free throws. Unless Derrick can figure that out he sits in those situations. Mayo, Thomas, Jamil, Davante and someone TBD will be on the floor.
Right now we do not know if either can make a free throw under pressure. James was a 50% free throw shooter overall, but he was better than that in the last minute. He still was not a good free throw shooter, but I would of rather had him at the line with the game on the line than some of the other players on his team. It would frustrate me to no end when as a sophomore or junior DJO, who was around a 70% free throw shooter lost us games because he could not make one with the game on the line. I prefer Derrick not to be fouled at an end of game situation, but I do not know if I rather have Dawson shooting the free throw instead of Derrick.
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Right now we do not know if either can make a free throw under pressure. James was a 50% free throw shooter overall, but he was better than that in the last minute. He still was not a good free throw shooter, but I would of rather had him at the line with the game on the line than some of the other players on his team. It would frustrate me to no end when as a sophomore or junior DJO, who was around a 70% free throw shooter lost us games because he could not make one with the game on the line. I prefer Derrick not to be fouled at an end of game situation, but I do not know if I rather have Dawson shooting the free throw instead of Derrick.
Actually 62%. Basically shot 65% for 1st 3 years and had a horrendous start his sr yr finishing with something like 47%. But yeah, he did make the big ones when he needed to.
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Ahh yes....I have been one of Buzz's biggest fans since his first year here and said he was the real deal and had the "it" factor....also said the same about Davante first semester freshman year...said he'd be as good/possibly better than Robert Jackson...all of which were met with ridicule by some...now I say the same about Dawson....and again, some of you feel I'm an idiot for making the statement early on...
Um, Davante hasn't been as good as Robert Jackson.
In his lone season at MU, Jackson averaged 15.4 points and 7.5 boards in 28.7 minutes. DG's career highs in those categories are 11.5, 5.3 and 21.5.
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Sultan, that's not actually fair. Ners has said a lot more than "Dawson needs to be starting"
So glad I've kept him on ignore, though these occasional quoted comments are comedy gold. So Dawson's passing is comparable to Magic Johnson. LOL.
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We can asterisk it all we want, but the reality is both Dawson and Derrick are playing against the same crappy team...and Dawson has looked immensely better than anything I've seen from Derrick in his 2 years here - and I hate to pile on our kids as I they all work their ass off and are just kids.
Now yes, it is Grambling - but I'll tell you what - Dawson has the look of a better point guard than we've had here since Diener. Yes...a huge statement...but he's making passes that are Magic Johnson good.
Obviously you are too young to have seen Magic play so I won't even go on about this being one of the silliest and most uninformed posts here ever.
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Sultan, that's not actually fair. Ners has said a lot more than "Dawson needs to be starting"
And what would that be Guns?
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And what would that be Guns?
He quoted two of your posts.
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Obviously you are too young to have seen Magic play so I won't even go on about this being one of the silliest and most uninformed posts here ever.
No...not too young....maybe a stretch to say Magic Johnson good....but he made some great ones last night...in his 6th to 26th minute of college basketball....better than we've seen from Derrick in 2+ seasons....
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Right now we do not know if either can make a free throw under pressure. James was a 50% free throw shooter overall, but he was better than that in the last minute. He still was not a good free throw shooter, but I would of rather had him at the line with the game on the line than some of the other players on his team. It would frustrate me to no end when as a sophomore or junior DJO, who was around a 70% free throw shooter lost us games because he could not make one with the game on the line. I prefer Derrick not to be fouled at an end of game situation, but I do not know if I rather have Dawson shooting the free throw instead of Derrick.
No one knows that. That's why Mayo, Thomas, Wilson, Gardner and probably JJJ need to be on the floor at the end of a game and not DeWil.
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Derrick is the starting PG and he should continue to be the starting PG. Dawson has shown he is a capable backup against 2 SWAC teams. But if we're going to elevate him to starting point based on his performance against Grambling, well that's just about the dumbest thing ever said on Scoop. Even worse that so many people jumped on the idiot bandwagon.
You've gone from "Dawson needs to be starting PG" to Dawson is the "real deal and has the 'it' factor."
And no one has said you were an "idiot" or has "ridiculed" you for saying that he has potential. So you can stop playing the victim. (a la Chicos) I think pretty much everyone recognizes that he has potential.
See above on Brew's comment...obviously I started the thread....and I really don't care that he called me an idiot or implied as much....Brew will end up looking like the idiot he frequently does here.
And yes, I stand by my statement that Dawson is the real deal, and has the "it" factor. I'll be sure to remind you, Brew, and Guns of this when Dawson proves it out. Will be fun to serve you guys a deserved sh$t burger.
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No...not too young....maybe a stretch to say Magic Johnson good....but he made some great ones last night...in his 6th to 26th minute of college basketball....better than we've seen from Derrick in 2+ seasons....
Maybe??? ::)
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Um, Davante hasn't been as good as Robert Jackson.
In his lone season at MU, Jackson averaged 15.4 points and 7.5 boards in 28.7 minutes. DG's career highs in those categories are 11.5, 5.3 and 21.5.
And you don't feel Davante will approach/exceed Jackson's numbers this season...in an arguably better conference, without the assistance of a Top 5 NBA player like D-Wade??
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Maybe??? ::)
My bad Sultan...I was conceding the point that it was a bit of hyperbole to say Magic Johnson good passes...but to deny that Dawson didn't illustrate great court vision and passing ability last night is simply ludicrous....and being stubborn for the sake of fragile ego to not admit being wrong...
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Maybe??? ::)
You won't find it so funny when JD grows seven inches over the next year to become even more like Magic.
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See above on Brew's comment...obviously I started the thread....and I really don't care that he called me an idiot or implied as much....Brew will end up looking like the idiot he frequently does here.
And yes, I stand by my statement that Dawson is the real deal, and has the "it" factor. I'll be sure to remind you, Brew, and Guns of this when Dawson proves it out. Will be fun to serve you guys a deserved sh$t burger.
Give you credit Ners for sticking to your guns. Just like MooMooman stating Otule will be drafted, you are staying strong.
I just want to see what happens when Duane Wilson is healthy and how that shakes out with Dawson.
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No...not too young....maybe a stretch to say Magic Johnson good....but he made some great ones last night...in his 6th to 26th minute of college basketball....better than we've seen from Derrick in 2+ seasons....
I wasn't debating whether he made some nice passes - he did. He had some quick looks into the post that we don't see from DW.
But don't equate a few nice passes against a playground team to being Magic-esque
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My bad Sultan...I was conceding the point that it was a bit of hyperbole to say Magic Johnson good passes...but to deny that Dawson didn't illustrate great court vision and passing ability last night is simply ludicrous....and being stubborn for the sake of fragile ego to not admit being wrong...
I know. But I am assuming that one day you will figure it out.
But anyway, this is going how a typical Ners' argument goes. Outlandish statement...backing off statement...victimization...asserting he is right by continuously saying he is right.
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My bad Sultan...I was conceding the point that it was a bit of hyperbole to say Magic Johnson good passes...but to deny that Dawson didn't illustrate great court vision and passing ability last night is simply ludicrous....and being stubborn for the sake of fragile ego to not admit being wrong...
I thought Dawson was really good last night. I enjoyed watching him play. He's much farther along than I thought he would be at this point.
HOWEVER, you've made some pretty outlandish statements. I disagree with those statements. That's not out of stubbornness or ego. I disagree with you because of my opinion of MU basketball, Derrick Wilson, and John Dawson.
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I know. But I am assuming that one day you will figure it out.
But anyway, this is going how a typical Ners' argument goes. Outlandish statement...backing off statement...victimization...asserting he is right by continuously saying he is right.
Ummm....I haven't victimized myself in any way...I've stood firm in my ground, have conceded a point or two - as a mature, non-egotitistcal individual can do - which I know as you've proven here for years, your fragile ego could never allow for....but in conceding a point or two...then I catch hell for "backing off statement." What a mindf*ck.
Will be a lot of fun to see how it all plays out....and then we'll see who moves the goalposts - pretty well know you, Guns, Brew...will all point to some safe, typically non-bold, guarded statement..which is generally all you engage in to protect your fragile egos. Here's what you all will come up with: I said Dawson was a good player, just that we shouldn't be so quick to discount Derrick Wilson.
If you don't think Buzz giving Dawson 20 minutes last night was at all telling...well....I'm not sure what to tell you. Buzz isn't an idiot in any way...he sees the high ceiling Dawson has. For the last time...De Will will get all the benefit of the doubt as Buzz is a loyal guy...for which is one of his best qualities - yet I doubt he'll sacrifice conference wins out of loyalty - whoever ends up being the back up...if it is Derrick will get ~ 15 minutes of run.
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Ummm....I haven't victimized myself in any way...I've stood firm in my ground, have conceded a point or two - as a mature, non-egotitistcal individual can do - which I know as you've proven here for years, your fragile ego could never allow for....but in conceding a point or two...then I catch hell for "backing off statement." What a mindf*ck.
Will be a lot of fun to see how it all plays out....and then we'll see who moves the goalposts - pretty well know you, Guns, Brew...will all point to some safe, typically non-bold, guarded statement..which is generally all you engage in to protect your fragile egos. Here's what you all will come up with: I said Dawson was a good player, just that we shouldn't be so quick to discount Derrick Wilson.
If you don't think Buzz giving Dawson 20 minutes last night was at all telling...well....I'm not sure what to tell you. Buzz isn't an idiot in any way...he sees the high ceiling Dawson has. For the last time...De Will will get all the benefit of the doubt as Buzz is a loyal guy...for which is one of his best qualities - yet I doubt he'll sacrifice conference wins out of loyalty - whoever ends up being the back up...if it is Derrick will get ~ 15 minutes of run.
Yes, my guarded view of John Dawson is because of my ego.
Derrick Wilson will average more:
Minutes
Points
Assists
Rebounds
Blocks
Steals
That's it. That's not my ego talking. That's my simple opinion of the situation.
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If you don't think Buzz giving Dawson 20 minutes last night was at all telling...well....I'm not sure what to tell you. Buzz isn't an idiot in any way...he sees the high ceiling Dawson has. For the last time...De Will will get all the benefit of the doubt as Buzz is a loyal guy...for which is one of his best qualities - yet I doubt he'll sacrifice conference wins out of loyalty - whoever ends up being the back up...if it is Derrick will get ~ 15 minutes of run.
Buzz also gave Deonte Burton 22 minutes to Jamil Wilson's 17.
Should we take this as a sign Jamil will (and ought to) soon find himself warming the bench at tip-off?
Or as a sign that in a glorified scrimmage against an overmatched team, Buzz was taking the opportunity to get his young players minutes?
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Yes, my guarded view of John Dawson is because of my ego.
Derrick Wilson will average more:
Minutes
Points
Assists
Rebounds
Blocks
Steals
That's it. That's not my ego talking. That's my simple opinion of the situation.
That's bold. Guy Fieri bold.
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That's bold. Guy Fieri bold.
Fist bumps for everybody.
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Buzz also gave Deonte Burton 22 minutes to Jamil Wilson's 17.
Should we take this as a sign Jamil will (and ought to) soon find himself warming the bench at tip-off?
Or as a sign that in a glorified scrimmage against an overmatched team, Buzz was taking the opportunity to get his young players minutes?
Good point you make....I'd be shocked if it happened....but Burton is a bull, assertive in ways we can only dream Jamil becomes. Jamil has a lot more skins on the wall at MU, than does Derrick. Jamil has shown us tantalizing potential - and has the tools. I'd say Derrick has yet to prove as much...so your analogy, while very good, is a little apples to oranges.
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BTW - I do regret starting this thread, as in defending my view - it has dissed Derrick in a way I didn't/dont' want to - as I do appreciate what all the kids invest into MU basketball...and Derrick is a high character guy...and I'm glad he's a member of the team. Just see him being more of a role player PG than a stud.
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If you had started with.....Dawson has impressed me. If he progresses quickly, I can envision a scenario where he either starts or plays significant minutes later in the season..... it probably wouldn't have gotten so contentious. Look, I like what I have seen from Dawson so far. But it IS Southern and Grambling. He HAS only scored 2 more points than DeWilson. And it is in no one's best interest if he starts on Saturday. But the kid has an upside, no arguing that.
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If you had started with.....Dawson has impressed me. If he progresses quickly, I can envision a scenario where he either starts or plays significant minutes later in the season..... it probably wouldn't have gotten so contentious. Look, I like what I have seen from Dawson so far. But it IS Southern and Grambling. He HAS only scored 2 more points than DeWilson. And it is in no one's best interest if he starts on Saturday. But the kid has an upside, no arguing that.
Not true. I'm sure Aaron Craft would be beside himself with joy if Dawson started Saturday.
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Not true. I'm sure Aaron Craft would be beside himself with joy if Dawson started Saturday.
Good point.
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Ah backup QB syndrome. It happens to everyone. There are still some down in here in Aggieland who cry out for Hill or Joeckel to come in after Manziel makes a dumb pass. Glad to know it effects everyone, even basketball schools.
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Ah backup QB syndrome. It happens to everyone. There are still some down in here in Aggieland who cry out for Hill or Joeckel to come in after Manziel makes a dumb pass. Glad to know it effects everyone, even basketball schools.
What I wouldn't give if Derrick Wilson were the returning Naismith Winner. Nice analogy.
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Second-string QB syndrome
The unsophisticated fan always thinks the set up man should be the closer.
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Ah backup QB syndrome. It happens to everyone. There are still some down in here in Aggieland who cry out for Hill or Joeckel to come in after Manziel makes a dumb pass. Glad to know it effects everyone, even basketball schools.
Maybe for some it is the backup QB syndrome. But maybe for others -- myself included -- it is hoping that the team has somebody better than Derrick and allowing that as a possibility.
I don't like being lumped in the "everybody wanted Junior benched and everybody wanted James benched" crowd. I liked Junior for what he brought and though I saw his limitations, I knew we didn't have anybody better. I definitely appreciated James, even after he stopped being an effective scorer, and knew we definitely didn't have anybody better there.
But Derrick ... we don't know if we have somebody better yet. I, for one, hope we do because I don't think he is a high-major PG. Maybe he'll prove me wrong, and if he does, I'll be the first to admit it.
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Maybe for some it is the backup QB syndrome. But maybe for others -- myself included -- it is hoping that the team has somebody better than Derrick and allowing that as a possibility.
I don't like being lumped in the "everybody wanted Junior benched and everybody wanted James benched" crowd. I liked Junior for what he brought and though I saw his limitations, I knew we didn't have anybody better. I definitely appreciated James, even after he stopped being an effective scorer, and knew we definitely didn't have anybody better there.
But Derrick ... we don't know if we have somebody better yet. I, for one, hope we do because I don't think he is a high-major PG. Maybe he'll prove me wrong, and if he does, I'll be the first to admit it.
He has already proved you wrong. He is the starting point guard on the 17th ranked basketball team in the country. Unless our coach is a total moron, he is the very definition of a "high-major" point guard.
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He has already proved you wrong. He is the starting point guard on the 17th ranked basketball team in the country. Unless our coach is a total moron, he is the very definition of a "high-major" point guard.
You are technically right, yes. But you also know what I meant.
If Buzz had somebody the caliber even of Cadougan, Derrick would be on the bench hoping to get 10 minutes a game. Which, of course, was the case last season even though Buzz publicly liked to say Derrick deserved to play over Cadougan. Which, of course, wasn't true or else Buzz would have played Derrick over Cadougan.
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I'm not convinced of that at all. I can't believe how much people get stuck in the past. No one saw Vander improving, no one saw CO develop post moves, and no one saw the increased effort from Gardner on defense even though it was right in front of us.
Through these two games, for what they are worth, he is playing at a higher level than he did last year. I don't know if he'll sustain it against high-major opponents, but if DeWil can continue to play like this he doesn't need to be a scoring threat. His incisive passing will more than make up for it. I rewatched much of the Grambling game today and was really impressed with DW's game. He has gone from game manager to facilitator. I can't remember Junior having the kind of control that Derrick had last night.
Sadly, for some, it will always be next man up.
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I'm not convinced of that at all. I can't believe how much people get stuck in the past. No one saw Vander improving, no one saw CO develop post moves, and no one saw the increased effort from Gardner on defense even though it was right in front of us.
Through these two games, for what they are worth, he is playing at a higher level than he did last year. I don't know if he'll sustain it against high-major opponents, but if DeWil can continue to play like this he doesn't need to be a scoring threat. His incisive passing will more than make up for it. I rewatched much of the Grambling game today and was really impressed with DW's game. He has gone from game manager to facilitator. I can't remember Junior having the kind of control that Derrick had last night.
Sadly, for some, it will always be next man up.
I hope you're right, brew. I happen to disagree that a great team can have a caretaker PG who is a total non-scorer, but I hope I'm wrong and you're right.
Just as I won't base much on these past two games, I'll try hard not to base everything on the next one. But Ohio State should provide a lot clearer look at things.
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The thing is, when DeWil is passing like he was last night, he's not a caretaker. If the defense wants to go 5-on-4, that gives him more space to whip alley-oops to Burton or laser beams to Gardner like he did last night. Just because someone else touches the ball after Wilson releases it doesn't make him any less responsible for the basket. His offensive performance last night was just as good as Gardner's was on Friday. If DG and Steve don't mishandle passes or if they counted trips to the line, DeWil was good for 13-15 assists last night instead of the 10 (minimum 22 points including Jake's threes).
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One thing I think we can all agree on - Derrick is the steadiest ball handler we have. But what do we do at the end of games that we're winning? Ball protection is obviously important, but so is the ability to make free throws. Unless Derrick can figure that out he sits in those situations. Mayo, Thomas, Jamil, Davante and someone TBD will be on the floor.
+2
I don't have any issues with Derrick's performance so far other than his free throws. Everything about them looks Dwight Howard ugly. I'm hoping that doesn't keep him off the court in end of game situations when we need him.
All this Dawson fever after two games is insane.
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What I wouldn't give if Derrick Wilson were the returning Naismith Winner. Nice analogy.
You are talking about Luke Joeckel. I'm talking about his twin brother Matt Joeckel who is currently the second string quarterback at Texas A&M.
Hope you enjoyed the knowledge :)
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We would all like Derrick to be a better scorer, but at least he does not take a lot of shots. I hated it when James kept on shooting even though he could only make dunks.
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The thing is, when DeWil is passing like he was last night, he's not a caretaker. If the defense wants to go 5-on-4, that gives him more space to whip alley-oops to Burton or laser beams to Gardner like he did last night. Just because someone else touches the ball after Wilson releases it doesn't make him any less responsible for the basket. His offensive performance last night was just as good as Gardner's was on Friday. If DG and Steve don't mishandle passes or if they counted trips to the line, DeWil was good for 13-15 assists last night instead of the 10 (minimum 22 points including Jake's threes).
Again, we'll see. If the defense totally sloughs off Derrick and he can't hit a shot, we'll actually be playing 4-on-5. They stuff the lane, just as Syracuse did in the tourney. We still haven't seen evidence that Derrick can drive and dish, and if the lane is packed, he'll have even less chance. Then, throw in the fact that you can't have a 40-50% shooter at PG late in games, and, well, there is a LOT for this young man to prove.
Maybe I'm expecting too much (though I don't think it's too much to expect a PG to occasionally knock down a shot and hit 60-70% of his FTs), or maybe you're giving him too much of a benefit of a doubt, or maybe it's somewhere in between.
Either way, we'll start finding out soon enough ... not that Buzz has any proven options at this point.