Crean- WATCH PAT KNIGHT!!!...

[muPARTY]

i was asking on why you don't see this, and low and behold Texas Tech does it against Texas...

when you're up by 3 with under 10-15 seconds to go.... why not tell your guys to foul as soon as they cross midcourt???!!!

Pat Knight had them do it against Texas.  Tech was up by 3, Texas was bringing the ball up and then, fouled.  2 free throws can't get you 3 points.  doesn't even give them a chanc to attempt to tie.

this isn't hind-sight, it should be basic.  2 free throws can't get you 3 points.  Crean needed to say let them attempt the three, or put them on the line before they can shoot.

(venting over... or at least on hold)

[CTWarrior]

We seem to give up a lot of second cahnce points on missed free throws.  We played great defense and forced them to take a very low percentage three to tie the game with no time to rebound and get the ball out for another three. Everything was fine if James just doesn't foul on the shot.  Don't blame Crean for this one.

[NateDoggMarq]

I agree why in gods name would you not foul.


In order for your team to blow it with that strategy 3 things have to happen

1. They need to make the first free throw
2. They need to miss the 2nd on purpose
3. They need to get the rebound and a put back  (THAT IS ALOT OF STUFF TO HAPPEN!!!!)

If you play straight up the other team can beat you a ton of ways
1. Made Three Pointers
2. Foul on a three point shot
3. Traditional three point play

[muPARTY]

.... Everything was fine if James just doesn't foul on the shot.  Don't blame Crean for this one.

yes you blame Crean for this one.  you foul him before he can shoot because the 2 free throws can't make 3 points!  Pat Knight tells his team when they go on defense to foul Texas before they can shoot the 3, because he knows 2 free throws can only get you 2 points.

to win, you dictate the game not have it dictated to you.  you dictate the game by making them hit a free throw, miss one on purpose, get the rebound,... and make a basket! (NateDoggMarq laid it out perfectly)
and worst case is they tie the game anyway, but...

Crean had a way for G'town to take 4 steps to tie it, not 1, and didn't do it.  he failed on this one.

[mwbauer7]

We seem to give up a lot of second cahnce points on missed free throws.  We played great defense and forced them to take a very low percentage three to tie the game with no time to rebound and get the ball out for another three. Everything was fine if James just doesn't foul on the shot.  Don't blame Crean for this one.

Agreed. You can't think Crean didn't think about it -- he clearly decided not to. It was just unfortunate that we put Wallace on the line for 3 easy ones.

[CTWarrior]

While you are probably right, I still say that that shot (Wallce moving toward the corner, not squared up, a defender's hands raised straight up in his face, no backboard to get lucky off of because of where it he was shooting it from) had at best a 15% chance of going in.  There was no time for a rebound and a pass to get off another three.  If you foul when they get it across half court with 5 seconds to go, a lot can still happen and there's probably (although I have absolutely nothing to back this up)  more than a 15% chance of them tying the game in regulation.  

The most important thing is that we continued our propensity for STUPID fouls late in the game and if you want to blame Crean for anything, blame him for that.

[NavinRJohnson]

I know I was screaming for the foul. Hard to argue too much though...definitely two schools of thought - one side is only right until it doesn't work out, then the other side is right.

[augoman]

Well, it worked for Bruce Pearl and Tenn against Memphis.

[DJO's Pump Fake]

Crean did a terrible job on x's and o's this afternoon (no shocker there)

1)  No inbound plays or plays at the end of the half - just looked like nique dribbling until he threw something up
2) The no foul with us up three  - mu party is right - 2 free throws cant get you 3 points
3) At the end of overtime, why in God's name would you let them take 10 seconds off the clock to get the ball accross half court and then foul wallace - Georgetowns best free throw shooter in school history!  Foul one of the 3 players who touched it before him for a better chance of a miss!

Venting a little but it seems he always lacks some basic strategy in every game

[Norm]

Was Wallace even set to shoot when he was supposedly fouled by James? He did not even have the ball above his waist, his feet were on the floor, his arms did not even go up in the air until he flailed his arms after the ball was stripped. If that was a foul, it should have been a 2 FT foul, not a three. Wallace was not in the process of shooting.

[tower912]

On the replay of the foul on DJ, you can see Wallace but both thumbs in the air hoping for a jump ball.     

[ChicosBailBonds]

Crean did a terrible job on x's and o's this afternoon (no shocker there)

1)  No inbound plays or plays at the end of the half - just looked like nique dribbling until he threw something up
2) The no foul with us up three  - mu party is right - 2 free throws cant get you 3 points
3) At the end of overtime, why in God's name would you let them take 10 seconds off the clock to get the ball accross half court and then foul wallace - Georgetowns best free throw shooter in school history!  Foul one of the 3 players who touched it before him for a better chance of a miss!

Venting a little but it seems he always lacks some basic strategy in every game

Do some of you seriously think there is no play called in these situations or is it the fact that it isn't executed or the defense takes something away?

At any rate, the fouling across half court also has two negatives potentially.....one is the ref calls an intentional foul giving them two free throws and the ball out of bounds.  It's happened before.  The other is as you go to foul them the guy chucks up the ball anyway and the ref gives them 3 foul shots (or god forbid he makes a miracle shot and it's a 4 point attempt).

I'm not saying your suggestion is wrong, but there are many schools of thought on how to handle it.

[NateDoggMarq]

Chicos:  The probability of a ref calling an intentional foul when you are obviously trying to foul in that situation is 1 in 10000 (If you are playing against Bo Ryan or Coach K it is 1:2  )

The Probability that a player is going to flail his arms and mircaously not only get the 3 free throws but somehow have the ball splash in for a 4 point play is about the same chance that I would have of starting for the Western Conference All-Star team at Center.

The Probability that a good free throw shooter makes the first shot  85 Percent
The Probability that a good free throw shooter misses the 2nd shot 95 percent
The probability that the ball bounces direcetly to a Georgetown player with all of our players hitting the glass and them not getting called for an over the back call 10 Percent
The Probability that once your team gets fouled after the play that a good free throw shooter is going to miss both free throws is also very low.
Hence in order for the Bruce Pearl strategy to backfire the other team needs to make the first, miss the 2nd, have a player on the other team somehow get a rebound with everyone on your team crashing the boards, Avoid an over the back call, have the presence of mind with the clock ticking down to chuck up a shot with time running down.

To many things need to go perfectly right for that team

If you go by you and Tom Creans school of thought the #'s are slightly different


The Probability that a great 3 point shooter will bury an uncontested three pointer is about 50 percent
The Probability that a great 3 point shooter will bury a contested three pointer is about 30 percent
The Probability that a slasher will get a traditional three point play on a given slash is about 10 percent
The Probability that a low post player will get a traditional three point play is about 15 percent
The probablilty that a team fouls a on a three pointer about 5 percent

THOSE ARE A LOT OF WAYS THAT A TEAM CAN BEAT YOU!!!!!!!!!!


I have never seen the Bruce Pearl Strategy backfire.  Im sure it has happened but I have seen thousands of time when a team up by three elected to play straight up and the other team sinks a three pointer.

[Pardner]

Do some of you seriously think there is no play called in these situations or is it the fact that it isn't executed or the defense takes something away?

At any rate, the fouling across half court also has two negatives potentially.....one is the ref calls an intentional foul giving them two free throws and the ball out of bounds.  It's happened before.  The other is as you go to foul them the guy chucks up the ball anyway and the ref gives them 3 foul shots (or god forbid he makes a miracle shot and it's a 4 point attempt).

I'm not saying your suggestion is wrong, but there are many schools of thought on how to handle it.

The debate is not that TC didn't have the moves, it's just that SOME of the moves he made didn't work out THIS game.  This team has troubles finishing halves and ends of games (read SJU)--between FT's, clock management, dumb fouls (like the 2 from DJ), ill timed forced shots or drives (JM), coaching moves (yes, this is a development area for TC).  That is what is separating us from GT right now.  It is fixable--we have  lot to work with....but you have to learn it from heartbreak to get to the next level.  GT knows how to close and to put themselves in a position to win (shots, lucky calls, strategy).

Some examples by JT3:  The containment trap on DJ at the end of OT where TC looked like he was setting up for a trey with little time for that play to develop, when a power dribble by DJ or JM to the hoop ties it and may get a chance for FT's in the worst case.  On Wallace's three--even if fouling him before the shot is a risky move, why did we give him that outside lane on the right side of the court within his shooting comfort zone (being right handed)...we have to close that off and make him switch his dribble back into the middle of the court to 1:  waste time and 2:  don't allow him to square up on his shot with his momentum in his sweet spot (that was off dead clock on Wes' FT right in front of our bench).

Tempo management.  Subtle examples:  after every stop, after every free throw--JT3 was bringing in subs to delay our O tempo.  He was delaying the game and drawing every second out because he was behind.

Spreading with Ewing...and Hibbert out of the game.  We got caught with the wrong match-ups in the game.  Great surprise move by JT.  

TC did a lot of things right yesterday.  He has really improved his game coaching this year.  But, we didn't finish well at the end of regulation and OT yesterday.  Most of it was execution, yes.  But the moves didn't work either--and that is also execution.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I guess that comes down to what we feel the coach is instructing the players to do.  I have a really hard time believing Crean told James to try and dig at that shot in the corner, I think it was James being instinctive.  James took him in the corner, should have gone straight up with him and the chances are he misses the shot.


NateDogg...welcome back.  I hope you know, barring a loss on Tuesday, we're in the NCAA tournament again....get off the ledge.     We shot piss poor yesterday, our leading scorer had zero points and yet we went to overtime against the #10 team in the country and should have won the game. 

I like this team a lot and it has amazing potential to do some great things in March...it also could go one and done. 

[NYWarrior]

I like this team a lot and it has amazing potential to do some great things in March...it also could go one and done. 

More than most 'good' teams, MU's draw will mean everything on Selection Sunday.

[NateDoggMarq]

As I have said before I start seeing this team in a more positive light once we get a big time conference road win and we did, against Nova on Monday.  It just really stinks that we lost this game because when I look at the NCAA tourney this year I see a lot of teams that I in no way want to play in the first round.  

So what I mean by this is that MU is probably going to be somewhere between a #5 seed and #8/9 Seed (I know we all think that their is no way we are going to be a #8 seed but we all thought the same thing last year so just roll with me for once)

Because I always look at the doom and gloom situation Lets take a look at us getting an 8/9 seed.  Of course this seed stinks because you got to go up against a 1. (Although I would love to play Texas or TENN as we match up great).   For some reason I think we would have the best chance of winning a game as a 8/9 seed as this is usually the slot for a decent Mountain West team or a Mid-Major

Getting a 5 seed really would be the best bet as this years crop of 12 seeds would include: Kent State, Davidson, St. Josephs, UMASS  I know Davidson gets a lot of talk but they did lose every big game this year including losing to lowly NC-State.  

A 7 or 6 seed would be the worst possible seed for us as the 10/11 seeds this year will probably include such candidates as USC, Kansas State, Florida, Arizona, Kentucky, Ohio State)

If you ask me this team really needed to get a #4 seed and that probably will not happen unless we win out and make it the Finals of the Big East tourneys.   The soft bubble this year leaves a lot of room for very athletic and talented BCS teams to make it into the field with a chip on their shoulders looking to save their season.  

If I were to guess today

MU will be a 6 seed playing 11 Florida In Tampa
or 7 Seed MU will be playing USC in Anaheim

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

As I have said before I start seeing this team in a more positive light once we get a big time conference road win and we did, against Nova on Monday.  It just really stinks that we lost this game because when I look at the NCAA tourney this year I see a lot of teams that I in no way want to play in the first round. 

So what I mean by this is that MU is probably going to be somewhere between a #5 seed and #8/9 Seed (I know we all think that their is no way we are going to be a #8 seed but we all thought the same thing last year so just roll with me for once)

Because I always look at the doom and gloom situation Lets take a look at us getting an 8/9 seed.  Of course this seed stinks because you got to go up against a 1. (Although I would love to play Texas or TENN as we match up great).   For some reason I think we would have the best chance of winning a game as a 8/9 seed as this is usually the slot for a decent Mountain West team or a Mid-Major

Getting a 5 seed really would be the best bet as this years crop of 12 seeds would include: Kent State, Davidson, St. Josephs, UMASS  I know Davidson gets a lot of talk but they did lose every big game this year including losing to lowly NC-State. 

A 7 or 6 seed would be the worst possible seed for us as the 10/11 seeds this year will probably include such candidates as USC, Kansas State, Florida, Arizona, Kentucky, Ohio State)

If you ask me this team really needed to get a #4 seed and that probably will not happen unless we win out and make it the Finals of the Big East tourneys.   The soft bubble this year leaves a lot of room for very athletic and talented BCS teams to make it into the field with a chip on their shoulders looking to save their season.   

If I were to guess today

MU will be a 6 seed playing 11 Florida In Tampa
or 7 Seed MU will be playing USC in Anaheim

Do you think the K-State loss will hurt MU's seading?

I'm sure that article describing the scrimmage is still fresh in the committee's mind.

[MUfan12]

I think they're a 6 as of now. Win the next two and you're up a line. Win two more and a 4 is not out of the realm of possibility. I can't imagine the NCAA would reward a low seed with a home game like your scenario suggests. Since they went to the pod system though, there have been a few 6 seeds that have recieved good placements- Namely UW in 2004 playing in MKE.

I'm gonna be honest, a 6 would suit me just fine. I look at the potential 3 seeds and none of them really scare me (outside of UL, but we won't have to worry about that). Even the 4 seeds don't really scare me.

The other thing we have to remember- McNeal's injury was a killer last year, and they were freshmen in 06 and showed it in the first half of that Alabama game. Provided we stay healthy playing on the second weekend is a good possibility.

[4everwarriors]

Are you talking about Pat Knight, the coach you has just 4 games of head coaching experience under his belt and whose team just took out #5 Texas? TC can't learn anything from him.

[NateDoggMarq]

As I have said before I start seeing this team in a more positive light once we get a big time conference road win and we did, against Nova on Monday.  It just really stinks that we lost this game because when I look at the NCAA tourney this year I see a lot of teams that I in no way want to play in the first round. 

So what I mean by this is that MU is probably going to be somewhere between a #5 seed and #8/9 Seed (I know we all think that their is no way we are going to be a #8 seed but we all thought the same thing last year so just roll with me for once)

Because I always look at the doom and gloom situation Lets take a look at us getting an 8/9 seed.  Of course this seed stinks because you got to go up against a 1. (Although I would love to play Texas or TENN as we match up great).   For some reason I think we would have the best chance of winning a game as a 8/9 seed as this is usually the slot for a decent Mountain West team or a Mid-Major

Getting a 5 seed really would be the best bet as this years crop of 12 seeds would include: Kent State, Davidson, St. Josephs, UMASS  I know Davidson gets a lot of talk but they did lose every big game this year including losing to lowly NC-State. 

A 7 or 6 seed would be the worst possible seed for us as the 10/11 seeds this year will probably include such candidates as USC, Kansas State, Florida, Arizona, Kentucky, Ohio State)

If you ask me this team really needed to get a #4 seed and that probably will not happen unless we win out and make it the Finals of the Big East tourneys.   The soft bubble this year leaves a lot of room for very athletic and talented BCS teams to make it into the field with a chip on their shoulders looking to save their season.   

If I were to guess today

MU will be a 6 seed playing 11 Florida In Tampa
or 7 Seed MU will be playing USC in Anaheim

Do you think the K-State loss will hurt MU's seading?

I'm sure that article describing the scrimmage is still fresh in the committee's mind.

The K-State loss would only have hurt if we were going for a similar seed as they were and it would have been used as a tie-breaker.  Thankfully K-State has lost 4 straight as of late and actually the more I think about the more the NCAA Commitee will not put us near each other as we have already practiced against them.

[4everwarriors]

Stop it Nate, please. The K-State scrimmage doesn't factor in AT ALL. Furthermore, the Committee not only doesn't know the two teams scrimmaged, nor does it give a rat's ass.

Repeat after me:  IT DON'T MATTER, IT DON'T MATTER, IT DON'T MATTER...

[mufan924]

maybe crean will take a big name school job and buzz williams will take over. that is my dream. does anyone really buy crean's theatrics? walkin to the crowd clappin? his bull$hiT ra ra talk to the fans on the big screen? PUH-LEASE.

[Marquette84]

The Probability that a good free throw shooter makes the first shot  85 Percent
The Probability that a good free throw shooter misses the 2nd shot 95 percent
The probability that the ball bounces direcetly to a Georgetown player with all of our players hitting the glass and them not getting called for an over the back call 10 Percent
The Probability that once your team gets fouled after the play that a good free throw shooter is going to miss both free throws is also very low.

You want to know why you don't intentionally foul Georgetown in the situation yesterday? 

Here's the way that foul plays out:

Probability that James is called for a shooting foul not intentional:  85 percent.
The Probability that Wallace makes the first shot  85 Percent   (MU up 2)
The probability that Wallace intentionally misses the second shot:  95 Percent
The probablity that Hibbert grabs the rebound after the missed 2nd shot:  75%
The probablity that Hibbert scores on the putback:  75%  (Game tied)
The probability that a foul is called on MU on the putback: The way the game was called, 100%
The probability that Hibbert hits the foul shot:  80%.  (Georgetown up 1)

Say that Hibbert missed the putback:
Probability that Hibbert misses the putback:  25%  (MU up 2)
Probability that MU is called for the foul:  100%
Probability that Hibbert hits two free throws:  80% (Game tied)

[MarquetteVol]

More than anything else, losses now hurt me because I have to read so much garbage from people on these message boards.

We definitely made some mistakes that killed us yesterday, but it's not the end of the world. We'll bounce back. A couple months ago if we had shot such a poor percentage against such a good opponent, we would have had no chance to win. Yesterday, it was ours to win. This team has progressed and will continue to through the tournament.

[NavinRJohnson]

If I were to guess today

MU will be a 6 seed playing 11 Florida In Tampa
or 7 Seed MU will be playing USC in Anaheim

Can I then assume you are cenceeding that MU will not be mentioned by Joe Lunardi as being on the bubble on Selection Sunday? Since we know betting is not allowed on these boards, I would like to ask you to make a $20 donation to the B&G Fund, VFW National Military Services (NMS) Military Assistance Program, or the V Foundation, and post the receipt here. If you'd prefer to wait until Selection Sunday, that's cool. I am certain I won't forget though.


B&G: https://www.alumni.marquette.edu/ng//GOTO//OnlineGiving/tabid/3641/default.aspx

VFW: https://secure2.convio.net/vfw/site/Donation2?idb=1321918&df_id=1700&1700.donation=form1

V Foundation: https://www.jimmyv.org/donate/donations/index.cfm

[NateDoggMarq]

Let it be the charity of your choice I feel better giving it to what you would want it to go to.

I will wait for selection sunday but as of right know I feel very confident we wont be in that group unless we lose to FGC and Syracuse and Lose in the first game of the Big East tourney.
As I told you Naivin I am very happy to eat crow on this and yes it taste yummy!!!

email me at Nathanielfell@hotmail.com  and pick a worthy cause for me to donate to. 

Sound like a deal?