MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 94Warrior on November 23, 2018, 07:28:48 PM
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I've been in Wojo's corner from day 1. But, this team is soft, again. Time to move on. Chris Mack needed all of 6 months to get Louisville playing harder than any of Wojo's teams.
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So are you proposing that we fire Wojo in November, or fire him in March regardless of what happens between now and then?
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I've been in Wojo's corner from day 1. But, this team is soft, again. Time to move on. Chris Mack needed all of 6 months to get Louisville playing harder than any of Wojo's teams.
What he said. ☝️ Regardless of outcome here. This is junk ball
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What he said. ☝️ Regardless of outcome here. This is junk ball
I wonder if Wojo can actually feel the building pressure? What kind of a delay exists between the moment it becomes so obvious to us and when it becomes obvious to him?
I get the sense he isn't the reflective type. He seems kind of dumb, actually. I think it will be a surprise when he gets the axe.
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This didn’t age well. MU losing by 4 with 39 seconds doesn’t give up and plays solid defense to get it to overtime. MU didn’t give up and out roughed Louisville in OT
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We out fought them to win this game. We played better defense than them.
On paper they have more talent (1 five star, 5 four stars vs. 0 five stars, 5 four stars), and more experience.
So tell me again why we sucked in this game?
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I think it aged fine. On paper, this should've been a comfortable win for Marquette. Wojo has a lot of work to do to make this team a comfortable tournament team. I certainly don't see K-State, Wisconsin, or Buffalo as certain wins.
We'll see how the season goes, bit it's a bit dispiriting to see Mack get that roster to playing us dead even after a few months considering this is the team Wojo has been building for 5 years.
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Let's see where we stand after playing Kansas St., Wisconsin, and Buffalo. Win 2 of 3 and we'll be in decent shape.
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I think it aged fine. On paper, this should've been a comfortable win for Marquette. Wojo has a lot of work to do to make this team a comfortable tournament team. I certainly don't see K-State, Wisconsin, or Buffalo as certain wins.
We'll see how the season goes, bit it's a bit dispiriting to see Mack get that roster to playing us dead even after a few months considering this is the team Wojo has been building for 5 years.
I am happy with the win. Will take it any way we can get it.
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Man what a joyless bunch this group can be. Enjoy the come from behind win. Some good stuff happened tonight.
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I think it aged fine. On paper, this should've been a comfortable win for Marquette. Wojo has a lot of work to do to make this team a comfortable tournament team. I certainly don't see K-State, Wisconsin, or Buffalo as certain wins.
We'll see how the season goes, bit it's a bit dispiriting to see Mack get that roster to playing us dead even after a few months considering this is the team Wojo has been building for 5 years.
Louisville will win some games in the ACC this year that will make people say wow. Quickness and size.
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Louisville will win some games in the ACC this year that will make people say wow. Quickness and size.
At this point going forward we want Louisville to win every game they play. Except to Seton Hall.
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He has not yet made any of his team more than the sum of their parts. Using tonight as an example of the team being 'soft' is just plain wrong.
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I think it aged fine. On paper, this should've been a comfortable win for Marquette. Wojo has a lot of work to do to make this team a comfortable tournament team. I certainly don't see K-State, Wisconsin, or Buffalo as certain wins.
We'll see how the season goes, bit it's a bit dispiriting to see Mack get that roster to playing us dead even after a few months considering this is the team Wojo has been building for 5 years.
MU was favored by 3.5 and won by 3. A game decided by less than 5 is not a comfortable win and can easily go either way. In addition on paper Louisville is a better team. Not because of Mack but what he had in the program. He has one freshman on the roster. Last year UL was 9-9 in a dominant ACC and had the No 7 recruiting class going into that year. The one freshman didn’t play while Pitino’s recruits showed up. Mack walked into a solid team.
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I think it aged fine. On paper, this should've been a comfortable win for Marquette. Wojo has a lot of work to do to make this team a comfortable tournament team. I certainly don't see K-State, Wisconsin, or Buffalo as certain wins.
We'll see how the season goes, bit it's a bit dispiriting to see Mack get that roster to playing us dead even after a few months considering this is the team Wojo has been building for 5 years.
No it was not supposed to be....
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Louisville missed an easy put-back to end the game prior to overtime. There are certainly other shots that can be singled out, but I'll bet 4/5 times the game doesn't go to overtime.
I'm just not feeling thrilled about this season. I'm not feeling thrilled about the progress. We look mediocre, and we make a lot of unforced errors and turnovers. Perhaps I just don't enjoy this brand of basketball, or perhaps I would prefer a high-flying, athletic group, even if the results are essentially the same as this team. I suppose that's my own bias.
It's easier to terminate an employee who blatantly disregards company policy. It is harder to terminate the punctual everyday-er who produces mediocre results. At this point, I actually want Wojo to just flame out so we can move on, because I have already decided he will not bring our program to the next tier. He is a placeholder and nothing more.
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MU was favored by 3.5 and won by 3. A game decided by less than 5 is not a comfortable win and can easily go either way. In addition on paper Louisville is a better team. Not because of Mack but what he had in the program. He has one freshman on the roster. Last year UL was 9-9 in a dominant ACC and had the No 7 recruiting class going into that year. The one freshman didn’t play while Pitino’s recruits showed up. Mack walked into a solid team.
MU was supposed to lose to Kansas by 8.5, lost by nine and Hiroshima.
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So much illogical BS being posted
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So much illogical BS being posted
Yep.
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So much illogical BS being posted
Entitled. What is an MU fan actually entitled to?
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I think it aged fine. On paper, this should've been a comfortable win for Marquette. Wojo has a lot of work to do to make this team a comfortable tournament team. I certainly don't see K-State, Wisconsin, or Buffalo as certain wins.
We'll see how the season goes, bit it's a bit dispiriting to see Mack get that roster to playing us dead even after a few months considering this is the team Wojo has been building for 5 years.
This is a surprisingly poor post from you.
Since when is being favored by 3.5 supposed to equate to a comfortable win?
From a talent standpoint, Louisville is at least our equal.
Why on earth do you think K State (#17 Ken Pom), Wisconsin (#12), and Buffalo (#43) should be "certain wins"? That's wishful thinking at best.
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I wonder if Wojo can actually feel the building pressure? What kind of a delay exists between the moment it becomes so obvious to us and when it becomes obvious to him?
I get the sense he isn't the reflective type. He seems kind of dumb, actually. I think it will be a surprise when he gets the axe.
So now he’s dumb?
Please never post again.
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Lol. Team may be soft, but certainly not as soft as some posters.
Embarrassing.
Really nice grind to come back and win a very important game.
And yes 5 years is enough. Let’s see how year 5 goes.
Or write off year 5 after starting 4-2 through 6 games when any sane person would have MU At 4-2 6 games in.
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This is a surprisingly poor post from you.
Since when is being favored by 3.5 supposed to equate to a comfortable win?
From a talent standpoint, Louisville is at least our equal.
Why on earth do you think K State (#17 Ken Pom), Wisconsin (#12), and Buffalo (#43) should be "certain wins"? That's wishful thinking at best.
Uh, I believe Brew stated he doesn't see them as certain wins. May want to take that back.
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Uh, I believe Brew stated he doesn't see them as certain wins. May want to take that back.
Uh, I understood what he said. Why would/should they be certain wins?
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I think it aged fine. On paper, this should've been a comfortable win for Marquette. Wojo has a lot of work to do to make this team a comfortable tournament team. I certainly don't see K-State, Wisconsin, or Buffalo as certain wins.
We'll see how the season goes, bit it's a bit dispiriting to see Mack get that roster to playing us dead even after a few months considering this is the team Wojo has been building for 5 years.
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MU has won the games it was expected to win and lost the games they were expected to lose. And this has some calling for the coach's firing and/or feeling blue.
Never change, Scoop.
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So now he’s dumb?
Please never post again.
You're right. Perhaps his sideline speeches better indicate that he believes his players can't comprehend complex schemes or language beyond a fifth grade level, not that he himself is actually struggling with the complexity of coaching against his peers. Similar to your posting behavior?
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His point is ... why would anyone have seen those as certain wins in the first place?
They weren't certain wins when the schedule came out and they aren't certain wins now.
Big. Deal.
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You're right. Perhaps his sideline speeches better indicate that he believes his players can't comprehend complex schemes or language beyond a fifth grade level, not that he himself is actually struggling with the complexity of coaching against his peers. Similar to your posting behavior?
Yes! So excited that the really, super smart fans are back to criticizing the "in the huddle" charade.
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Again, why would anyone think those should be ceratain wins in the first place? Two of the three teams are ranked higher than we are and may be favored.
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His point is ... why would anyone have seen those as certain wins in the first place?
They weren't certain wins when the schedule came out and they aren't certain wins now.
Big. Deal.
Yes, thank you.
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Yes! So excited that the really, super smart fans are back to criticizing the "in the huddle" charade.
There are two distinct groups here, I have come to realize.
Group 1 (Fire Wojo Crowd): "In Wojo's Year 5, we notice significant flaws in the state of our program based on actual observation of Marquette's game-play. The games' final scores do not show the whole picture, because many would agree, our record would be similar with most other coaches.
Group 2 (Don't Fire Wojo Crowd): "Let's let it play out, it's too early to judge. But anyone who questions Wojo's abilities as a coach is a fool and should stop posting."
Group 2 is much more likely to engage in ad hominem attacks or to demand the other group stop from posting. Why is this, when we are all ultimately seeking the best possible Marquette basketball program in the long-term? Is it because Group 2 takes an attack on Wojo as an attack on Marquette? Wojo is not Marquette.
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For those of you who point out the 22-0 run as something that should never happen. MSU was losing by 19 and won by 10 over Texas. shaka’s, the savior, Texas.
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Group 2 is much more likely to engage in ad hominem attacks or to demand the other group stop from posting. Why is this, when we are all ultimately seeking the best possible Marquette basketball program in the long-term? Is it because Group 2 takes an attack on Wojo as an attack on Marquette? Wojo is not Marquette.
The lack of self-awareness in this post is spectacular.
1. No one has suggested you stop posting.
2. You clearly don't know what ad hominem means.
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There are two distinct groups here, I have come to realize.
Group 1 (Fire Wojo Crowd): "In Wojo's Year 5, we notice significant flaws in the state of our program based on actual observation of Marquette's game-play. The games' final scores do not show the whole picture, because many would agree, our record would be similar with most other coaches.
Group 2 (Don't Fire Wojo Crowd): "Let's let it play out, it's too early to judge. But anyone who questions Wojo's abilities as a coach is a fool and should stop posting."
Group 2 is much more likely to engage in ad hominem attacks or to demand the other group stop from posting. Why is this, when we are all ultimately seeking the best possible Marquette basketball program in the long-term? Is it because Group 2 takes an attack on Wojo as an attack on Marquette? Wojo is not Marquette.
Your groups are right descriptions are wrong.
Group 1 - Fire Wojo. I really want a coach that is a little nutty and I never liked Wojo. Complain about every lose and can’t for the life of me figured out way we haven’t won a national title like Buzz and Crean did.
Group 2 - Wojo is building a program. Every year his teams have been better than the last. Players have been better and Recruits have been better. This during a period when MU struggled to remain competitive and recruits have little to no reason to go to Marquette unlike when the Big East was the league. Outside of the transition year Wojo isn’t losing whole recruiting classes year over year and no off the court issues.
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There are two distinct groups here, I have come to realize.
Group 1 (Fire Wojo Crowd): "In Wojo's Year 5, we notice significant flaws in the state of our program based on actual observation of Marquette's game-play. The games' final scores do not show the whole picture, because many would agree, our record would be similar with most other coaches.
Group 2 (Don't Fire Wojo Crowd): "Let's let it play out, it's too early to judge. But anyone who questions Wojo's abilities as a coach is a fool and should stop posting."
Group 2 is much more likely to engage in ad hominem attacks or to demand the other group stop from posting. Why is this, when we are all ultimately seeking the best possible Marquette basketball program in the long-term? Is it because Group 2 takes an attack on Wojo as an attack on Marquette? Wojo is not Marquette.
If "our record would be similar with most other coaches" what's the point of firing Wojo again?
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Mack walked into a solid team.
Not really. He saw Quentin Snider & Anas Mahmoud graduate and Deng Adel & Ray Spalding go pro. They lost 4 of their top-5 players from last year in terms of minutes and points. This isn't the same team that earned a NIT berth last year. Not even close.
Mack has done well with what was left, but they are definitely overachieving so far. I'm not looking at the line in terms of an expected result, I'm looking at what both teams mutually returned and added. If nothing else, the spread indicates we are underachieving and Louisville overachieving on that basis.
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The lack of self-awareness in this post is spectacular.
1. No one has suggested you stop posting.
2. You clearly don't know what ad hominem means.
1. So, RushmoreAcademy writing, "Please never post again," is not a suggestion that I should stop posting. Got it. I'll ask you to do your own research on the many other examples sprinkled around here.
2. "Really, super smart fans." My bad, I thought that was sarcasm. I guess you think I am actually a super smart fun. Because at first, my sarcasm meter went off, which would have meant that you think I am NOT actually a super smart fan and perhaps I am actually a dumb fan and that my opinion is therefore less meaningful. Please help me understand the definition of an ad hominem attack.
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The lack of self-awareness in this post is spectacular.
1. No one has suggested you stop posting.
2. You clearly don't know what ad hominem means.
To be fair I asked him to stop posting. I did say please though.
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If "our record would be similar with most other coaches" what's the point of firing Wojo again?
I agree with your point, but let's revisit after Kansas State, Wisconsin, and Buffalo.
For the record, I feel strongly we are going to lose all three. And I feel strongly that a better coach would find a way to win 1 or 2 of these games in his fifth year of the program.
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To be fair I asked him to stop posting. I did say please though.
Pakuni meant to write, "No one has asked you to stop posting...impolitely."
So, I'll give him the point.
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1. So, RushmoreAcademy writing, "Please never post again," is not a suggestion that I should stop posting. Got it. I'll ask you to do your own research on the many other examples sprinkled around here.
2. "Really, super smart fans." My bad, I thought that was sarcasm. I guess you think I am actually a super smart fun. Because at first, my sarcasm meter went off, which would have meant that you think I am NOT actually a super smart fan and perhaps I am actually a dumb fan and that my opinion is therefore less meaningful. Please help me understand the definition of an ad hominem attack.
1. I missed Rushmore's post. Apparently he's the entirety of the second group of fans.
2. That's not an ad hominem. And, yes, it was sarcasm. Because anyone who thinks the made for TV "inside the huddle" snippets are an accurate reflection of in-game coaching is not, in fact, very smart.
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I agree with your point, but let's revisit after Kansas State, Wisconsin, and Buffalo.
For the record, I feel strongly we are going to lose all three. And I feel strongly that a better coach would find a way to win 1 or 2 of these games in his fifth year of the program.
So why waste your time? Both watching and posting here?
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Not really. He saw Quentin Snider & Anas Mahmoud graduate and Deng Adel & Ray Spalding go pro. They lost 4 of their top-5 players from last year in terms of minutes and points. This isn't the same team that earned a NIT berth last year. Not even close.
Mack has done well with what was left, but they are definitely overachieving so far. I'm not looking at the line in terms of an expected result, I'm looking at what both teams mutually returned and added. If nothing else, the spread indicates we are underachieving and Louisville overachieving on that basis.
KenPom and Vegas both expected a close game. They’re pretty good at what they do.
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1. I missed Rushmore's post. Apparently he's the entirety of the second group of fans.
2. That's not an ad hominem. And, yes, it was sarcasm. Because anyone who thinks the made for TV "inside the huddle" snippets are an accurate reflection of in-game coaching is not, in fact, very smart.
Here's another from a few days ago, I pasted it below. I'll scrounge up more, won't take me long.The reality is, if a poster on this forum believes the best course of action for Marquette is to move in a different direction regarding the head coach, a common reaction is to advise that person to stop posting.
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Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on November 14, 2018, 09:52:03 PM
Fire Wojo. And before you ask - no I don’t post in the off-season.
You should probably stop posting during the season, too."
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I think it aged fine. On paper, this should've been a comfortable win for Marquette. Wojo has a lot of work to do to make this team a comfortable tournament team. I certainly don't see K-State, Wisconsin, or Buffalo as certain wins.
We'll see how the season goes, bit it's a bit dispiriting to see Mack get that roster to playing us dead even after a few months considering this is the team Wojo has been building for 5 years.
Why, on paper, should this have been a comfortable win?
The spread was 3.5. Kenpom had it as a 3 point victory. Nothing indicated this was going to be a "comfortable win". A win? Sure. But it was close as expected.
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I agree with your point, but let's revisit after Kansas State, Wisconsin, and Buffalo.
For the record, I feel strongly we are going to lose all three. And I feel strongly that a better coach would find a way to win 1 or 2 of these games in his fifth year of the program.
So you want to fire Wojo because you think strongly that we might lose three upcoming games against teams that are ranked higher than we are? And you think some other anonymous coach would do better than that? Makes sense
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Not really. He saw Quentin Snider & Anas Mahmoud graduate and Deng Adel & Ray Spalding go pro. They lost 4 of their top-5 players from last year in terms of minutes and points. This isn't the same team that earned a NIT berth last year. Not even close.
Mack has done well with what was left, but they are definitely overachieving so far. I'm not looking at the line in terms of an expected result, I'm looking at what both teams mutually returned and added. If nothing else, the spread indicates we are underachieving and Louisville overachieving on that basis.
I agree with this analysis. Mack is a good coach and showed that again tonight, but Louisville will be a basement-level ACC team this year. That said, Marquette needed a win, and they took care of business.
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So why waste your time? Both watching and posting here?
I can enjoy Marquette basketball, and Marquette University for that matter, while simultaneously believing they are going to lose a game and should move on from their current coach. It's sort of how I am watching the Packers this year, I guess. I'm enjoying the dialogue on this forum, I appreciate that it's filled with critical opinions and reasonable optimism.
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Not really. He saw Quentin Snider & Anas Mahmoud graduate and Deng Adel & Ray Spalding go pro. They lost 4 of their top-5 players from last year in terms of minutes and points. This isn't the same team that earned a NIT berth last year. Not even close.
Mack has done well with what was left, but they are definitely overachieving so far. I'm not looking at the line in terms of an expected result, I'm looking at what both teams mutually returned and added. If nothing else, the spread indicates we are underachieving and Louisville overachieving on that basis.
Except UL hasn’t overachieved. They lost. They haven’t beaten anyone good yet either. Mack walked into a solid team. One 5 star and 5 four star recruits. None of which were his and all of which had at least one season in the NCAA’s and in the system.
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KenPom and Vegas both expected a close game. They’re pretty good at what they do.
Yes, but to start the season, this was kenpom 29 vs kenpom 63. Starting today was 36 vs 57. That brought his projection closer & the results that led to that likely also brought Vegas closer.
So on a small sample size, Mack has overachieved and we have underachieved. Projected over a season, they would likely finish ahead of us.
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So are you proposing that we fire Wojo in November, or fire him in March regardless of what happens between now and then?
I am proposing they start looking in the off season, if things don't get significantly better. This team has top 20 talent, but don't play up to their potential. They are no longer young, but continue to play soft. We shouldn't be sweating the bubble, or heading to the NIT, but it looks like that's where we may be headed.
I really miss how hard Buzz's teams played. Crowder, DJO, Butler and even Vander didn't get pushed around.
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Except UL hasn’t overachieved. They lost. They haven’t beaten anyone good yet either. Mack walked into a solid team. One 5 star and 5 four star recruits. None of which were his and all of which had at least one season in the NCAA’s and in the system.
Sounds kinda like the team Wojo walked into his first year on the job, hey?
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So you want to fire Wojo because you think strongly that we might lose three upcoming games against teams that are ranked higher than we are? And you think some other anonymous coach would do better than that? Makes sense
I want Wojo to be terminated because I watched every minute of every game this season -- and most seasons for the past several years -- and didn't just look at the box score. Do you really think it is so insane to be pessimistic about Wojo's ability to make this team a perennial competitor in the NCAA tournament? I truly don't think he can or will do that. I am genuinely doubtful about his abilities.
Coaches get fired -- regularly. There are websites devoted to this topic, like Coaches Database.
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He has not yet made any of his team more than the sum of their parts. Using tonight as an example of the team being 'soft' is just plain wrong.
The first 38 minutes were soft. The last 2 and OT were better. The fact remains UL let us off the hook with some terrible off the ball fouls on Markus, Sam. They gave us 6 free throws down the stretch on DUMB fouls. Thanks Loserville.
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I want Wojo to be terminated because I watched every minute of every game this season -- and most seasons for the past several years -- and didn't just look at the box score. Do you really think it is so insane to be pessimistic about Wojo's ability to make this team a perennial competitor in the NCAA tournament? I truly don't think he can or will do that. I am genuinely doubtful about his abilities.
Coaches get fired -- regularly. There are websites devoted to this topic, like Coaches Database.
No, I don't think it's insane. I don't necessarily agree with it but I have my own doubts about his ceiling.
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There are two distinct groups here, I have come to realize.
Group 1 (Fire Wojo Crowd): "In Wojo's Year 5, we notice significant flaws in the state of our program based on actual observation of Marquette's game-play. The games' final scores do not show the whole picture, because many would agree, our record would be similar with most other coaches.
Group 2 (Don't Fire Wojo Crowd): "Let's let it play out, it's too early to judge. But anyone who questions Wojo's abilities as a coach is a fool and should stop posting."
Group 2 is much more likely to engage in ad hominem attacks or to demand the other group stop from posting. Why is this, when we are all ultimately seeking the best possible Marquette basketball program in the long-term? Is it because Group 2 takes an attack on Wojo as an attack on Marquette? Wojo is not Marquette.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ad%20hominem
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https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ad%20hominem
My point is that Group 2 is far more likely than Group 1 to attack the poster himself or herself as opposed to (or in addition to) the merits of the post. I think this is because Group 2 genuinely believes that members of Group 1 are working against the long-term well-being of the men's basketball team, while the members of Group 1 don't necessarily believe this about the members of Group 2, rather they just sort of hate Wojo's coaching. If I'm using the term ad hominem incorrectly, help me understand the better term, please? If you think I am just plain wrong then you can certainly argue that, but I'll pull the examples.
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So you want to fire Wojo because you think strongly that we might lose three upcoming games against teams that are ranked higher than we are? And you think some other anonymous coach would do better than that? Makes sense
I guess I am tired of being unranked when we have better talent than half the ranked teams. Use Wisconsin as an example. We have far better talent, and it's not even close, yet there they are ranked and we needed a meltdown from a team in year 1 of a rebuild, to get to OT and remain in the 'others getting votes' category. Not good enough.
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I want Wojo to be terminated because I watched every minute of every game this season -- and most seasons for the past several years -- and didn't just look at the box score. Do you really think it is so insane to be pessimistic about Wojo's ability to make this team a perennial competitor in the NCAA tournament? I truly don't think he can or will do that. I am genuinely doubtful about his abilities.
Coaches get fired -- regularly. There are websites devoted to this topic, like Coaches Database.
No coach since Al has made this team a perennial contender. That's 40+ years ago. If that's your standard for success at MU, settle in for a lifetime of disappointment (and coaching changes).
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I guess I am tired of being unranked when we have better talent than half the ranked teams. Use Wisconsin as an example. We have far better talent, and it's not even close, yet there they are ranked and we needed a meltdown from a team in year 1 of a rebuild, to get to OT and remain in the 'others getting votes' category. Not good enough.
Do we? Happ is better than anyone we have by far. Sam and Markus are probably the next two best players. But Trice, Reuvers, and Davison are better than our 3rd best player. All my opinion, of course.
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No coach since Al has made this team a perennial contender. That's 40+ years ago. If that's your standard for success at MU, settle in for a lifetime of disappointment (and coaching changes).
Between Crean and Buzz, we made the tournament, what, 9 straight years before Buzz missed it in 2013-14? I think that’s the standard most people want to get back to. Given the program’s history and resources, I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
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No coach since Al has made this team a perennial contender. That's 40+ years ago. If that's your standard for success at MU, settle in for a lifetime of disappointment (and coaching changes).
I wrote "perennial competitor" in the NCAA tournament. As in, the team MAKES the tournament and therefore is competing in the tournament.
I could have used clearer language to make my point that I expect a coach that brings this team to the NCAA tournament just about every year, with accommodations for cyclical change.
We are like 16th overall in terms of bids, historically. We should demand a coach that regularly gets us there. The reason we are even debating is because we both demand it and probably agree on different approaches to get back to it.
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I guess I am tired of being unranked when we have better talent than half the ranked teams. Use Wisconsin as an example. We have far better talent, and it's not even close, yet there they are ranked and we needed a meltdown from a team in year 1 of a rebuild, to get to OT and remain in the 'others getting votes' category. Not good enough.
So you think we have better talent than all but 12 teams in the country?
Sheesh.
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Between Crean and Buzz, we made the tournament, what, 9 straight years before Buzz missed it in 2013-14? I think that’s the standard most people want to get back to. Given the program’s history and resources, I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
Most of those years MU was no threat to get past the Sweet 16, and certainly not a threat to win it all.
Yes, MU should be competing to get into the tournament every year. But competing to get in and being a competitor to win it are not the same.
Mu is well positioned to make the tournament this year and next. So, that's at least three of four.
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I am proposing they start looking in the off season, if things don't get significantly better. This team has top 20 talent, but don't play up to their potential. They are no longer young, but continue to play soft. We shouldn't be sweating the bubble, or heading to the NIT, but it looks like that's where we may be headed.
I really miss how hard Buzz's teams played. Crowder, DJO, Butler and even Vander didn't get pushed around.
The boys did not play soft tonight. The effort was 110%. The effort was Buzz like. No complaints from me.
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Most of those years MU was no threat to get past the Sweet 16, and certainly not a threat to win it all.
Yes, MU should be competing to get into the tournament every year. But competing to get in and being a competitor to win it are not the same.
Mu is well positioned to make the tournament this year and next. So, that's at least three of four.
I believe it is wrong to expect Marquette to be in the mix of "winning it all" each year. And I never wrote that, you just chose your own word in place of mine.
I also don't agree that Marquette is well-positioned to make the tournament this year. As far as I can tell, they are positioned only for the bubble. I guess I liked last year's team better based on the current level of play, at this same time last year. We beat LSU, Vermont, Wisconsin (always nice) around this time.
And as I have written before, I'm predicting three losses to the next meaningful 3. I could be wrong, I could be right, who the hell knows.
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The boys did not play soft tonight. The effort was 110%. The effort was Buzz like. No complaints from me.
Did you see the first 38 mins? Makes me wonder if we were watching the same game.
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Did you see the first 38 mins? Makes me wonder if we were watching the same game.
They played hard. They didn't play smart.
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The whole coaching thing breaks down into three groups:
Group 1 -- We want Marquette back to what it was under Coach Al. We want to be a perenial contender for a natchamp. We spend the money. We're in a great conference. We have some recognition. All we need is a leader. We have serious doubts as to whether Coach Wojo is it. We don't like the sloppiness and lack of collaboration on the floor and this is all coaching.
Group 2 --Coach Al retired in 1977. That was a looooonnnnnngggg time ago. College basketball has changed and schools like Marquette should be happy to be in the tournament periodically. Our conference isn't what it used to be and it has been 15 years since DWade got us to the Final Four. If we get someone really good, he will just leave for a Power Five Conference anyway. Our team and our coach represent Marquette well. Let's be happy for what we have.
Group 3 -- We're p**sed. We don't like what we see so far. The Presbyterian game scared the absolute hell out of us. It isn't that we lost to Kansas, it is how we lost to Kansas. We squandered an opportunity because we lacked poise. We're down on Coach Wojo, who is in his fifth year and should be producing a far better product than he has shown. We're not a mid-major but at times we play like one. We're frustrated at Coach Wojo but we are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until next March. But by the grace of God, we BETTER be in the NCAA tournament. If we aren't.....
I'm personally probably somewhere between 1 and 3. I think it is counterproductive to formally put Coach Wojo on probation of sorts and I sure hope the ship gets righted for the coming month. I really want him to succeed at Marquette but I definitely am concerned that we're not getting there. This team is not fun to watch at times, especially when the offense shuts down or relies on "3"s to the detriment of anything else. Our defense is better and I give Coach a lot of credit for that, but our team has to come together.
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My point is that Group 2 is far more likely than Group 1 to attack the poster himself or herself as opposed to (or in addition to) the merits of the post. I think this is because Group 2 genuinely believes that members of Group 1 are working against the long-term well-being of the men's basketball team, while the members of Group 1 don't necessarily believe this about the members of Group 2, rather they just sort of hate Wojo's coaching. If I'm using the term ad hominem incorrectly, help me understand the better term, please? If you think I am just plain wrong then you can certainly argue that, but I'll pull the examples.
I think you are using it correctly .
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I don't think this is the game to criticize the team for being soft. Tough, grind it out game that our boys came out on top of.
I was expecting a bigger win tonight. Like Brew I though the Vegas line was too small and that we would win by more. Despite that, there were some things that gave me some hope.
All the complaints after Kansas were that we didn't work the post enough and get to the line. Next game, we only took 18 3P shots (2 less than Louisville) and we made it to the line 23 times. Louisville's plan was obviously to run us off the three point line and we were able to adjust and win any way. I don't think you will see many games this season where our opponent shoots more threes than we do.
Other big complaint after Kansas was that Markus does too much hero ball. Well this game he had the defenses whole attention. By my count there were only two forced hero ball type shots and he limited his TOs to 1 while leading the team in assists. Not his most efficient game but he was patient and came up big in winning time. Again, making adjustments.
Defense continues to impress. Maybe Louisville isn't that good at offense but look at what they were able to do to Tennessee, one of the top defensive teams in the country. Transitive property of basketball isn't a thing of course, but it shows that the offensive talent is there. MU really limited them. Maybe it was my bias but I also felt like Louisville hit a lot more tough shots than we did. Our contested bunnies seemed to rim out while they got a lot of friendly rolls. Swear that Cunningham kid got an underhanded scoop through two defenders at the end of the shot clock that hit the backboard and the rim four times before going in.
As for all the b*tching between the different kinds of fans....I think Scoop has reached the online forum equivalent of desperately needing to get laid.
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They played hard. They didn't play smart.
Exactly.
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Reasonable people can disagree. It's fair to remain optimistic because our record is what was expected through 6 games. It's also fair to be pessimistic because 180-200 minutes played this year have been reminiscent of disappointing outcomes from years past.
Honestly, if the biggest praise we have so far for Wojo is that he is great at meeting expectations and isn't paying players (dropping bags for Titus fans), then it makes a lot of sense as to why the board is so divided.
We'll have a better idea of what to expect for the coming months by Dec 8.
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I guess I am tired of being unranked when we have better talent than half the ranked teams.
So you think we have better talent than all but 12 teams in the country?
Guess Wojo is one hell of a recruiter if we have the 13th best talent in the country!
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I agree, Wojo is a hell of a recruiter.
Please tell me which of these teams has significantly better talent than MU:
13 Virginia Tech 4-0 849
14 Florida State 2-0 794
15 Mississippi State 3-0 619
16 Clemson 3-0 462
17 UCLA 3-0 430
18 TCU 3-0 388
19 LSU 4-0 358
20 Iowa 4-0 354
21 Oregon 3-1 325
22 Buffalo 3-0 240
23 Ohio State 4-0 222
24 Purdue 4-1 199
25 Wisconsin 3-0 150
/25 Nebraska
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I agree, Wojo is a hell of a recruiter.
Please tell me which of these teams has significantly better talent than MU:
13 Virginia Tech 4-0 849
14 Florida State 2-0 794
15 Mississippi State 3-0 619
16 Clemson 3-0 462
17 UCLA 3-0 430
18 TCU 3-0 388
19 LSU 4-0 358
20 Iowa 4-0 354
21 Oregon 3-1 325
22 Buffalo 3-0 240
23 Ohio State 4-0 222
24 Purdue 4-1 199
25 Wisconsin 3-0 150
/25 Nebraska
Oregon, and LSU definitely.
Clemson and UCLA are coming off losses this week so lets see where they end up. Just scroll through the recruiting class rankings for the past few years
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Sounds kinda like the team Wojo walked into his first year on the job, hey?
I believe it is wrong to expect Marquette to be in the mix of "winning it all" each year. And I never wrote that, you just chose your own word in place of mine.
I also don't agree that Marquette is well-positioned to make the tournament this year. As far as I can tell, they are positioned only for the bubble. I guess I liked last year's team better based on the current level of play, at this same time last year. We beat LSU, Vermont, Wisconsin (always nice) around this time.
And as I have written before, I'm predicting three losses to the next meaningful 3. I could be wrong, I could be right, who the hell knows.
I wonder who these two are? I'm sure they have both been here before.
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Uh, I understood what he said. Why would/should they be certain wins?
Because you have to protect you home court... or at least that’s what Wojo says.
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Because you have to protect you home court... or at least that’s what Wojo says.
Oooh. So by that logic we'd be certain to win against Duke or Kansas or Gonzaga if we played them at home? Nonsensical.
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I wonder who these two are? I'm sure they have both been here before.
Long time lurker.
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Pakuni meant to write, "No one has asked you to stop posting...impolitely."
So, I'll give him the point.
I didn’t politely ask you to stop you to stop posting because you want Wojo fired. Many people do and that’s a fine opinion. I’m halfway there myself. It was because you just decided he was a dumb person based on what he says during the tv taped timeouts. As has been discussed on here ad nauseam over the years, the coaches are told they will be on air then, and so specifically say nothing but coach speak for 10 seconds.
Wojo may not be the right coach for this team, or any team, but to think that he’s unintelligent or hasn’t forgotten more about basketball than you know, is a poor line of thought.
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I didn’t politely ask you to stop you to stop posting because you want Wojo fired. Many people do and that’s a fine opinion. I’m halfway there myself. It was because you just decided he was a dumb person based on what he says during the tv taped timeouts. As has been discussed on here ad nauseam over the years, the coaches are told they will be on air then, and so specifically say nothing but coach speak for 10 seconds.
Wojo may not be the right coach for this team, or any team, but to think that he’s unintelligent or hasn’t forgotten more about basketball than you know, is a poor line of thought.
Well I also think he is dumb because of how defensive he gets from reasonable questions reporters pose to him in his pressers. I suppose that indicates he can't intelligently and reasonably respond to a fair question. Or maybe it just means he has some growing up to do as a leader.
Too bad we didn't get that Smart guy.
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Well I also think he is dumb because of how defensive he gets from reasonable questions reporters pose to him in his pressers. I suppose that indicates he can't intelligently and reasonably respond to a fair question. Or maybe it just means he has some growing up to do as a leader.
Too bad we didn't get that Smart guy.
Is that a regular occurrence. I remember the one time it happened but I can't think of any other time.
Living in Texas, I can tell you that Texas fans are even more disappointed in Smart than we are in Wojo. Maybe this is the year he turns it around.
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Well I also think he is dumb because of how defensive he gets from reasonable questions reporters pose to him in his pressers. I suppose that indicates he can't intelligently and reasonably respond to a fair question. Or maybe it just means he has some growing up to do as a leader.
Too bad we didn't get that Smart guy.
Yeah it's a shame he doesn't give really intelligent speeches about the the butcher baker and candlestick maker.
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Yeah it's a shame he doesn't give really intelligent speeches about the the butcher baker and candlestick maker.
He can win a few NCAA tourney games like buzz and he can say whatever the hell he wants. Until then he has no reason to blow up at the Marquette student beat writers or insinuate his players make him look like his coaching is a problem.
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He can win a few NCAA tourney games like buzz and he can say whatever the hell he wants. Until then he has no reason to blow up at the Marquette student beat writers or insinuate his players make him look like his coaching is a problem.
I've never gotten this impression from Wojo. I feel like he's gone out of his way to take blame off the players
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He can win a few NCAA tourney games like buzz and he can say whatever the hell he wants. Until then he has no reason to blow up at the Marquette student beat writers or insinuate his players make him look like his coaching is a problem.
I agree there's been times he's snapped a bit at the student writers which seems a little bs of him but here's a buzz presser from way back before he won a few NCAA tourney games. Seems very similar to the stuff wojo says, and at one point calls out the team for not doing what they practice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJUEbcegCOg
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Oregon, and LSU definitely.
Clemson and UCLA are coming off losses this week so lets see where they end up. Just scroll through the recruiting class rankings for the past few years
We just blew out Oregon in March. Since then, we've added 4 good players and lost 1. Oregon's talent is freshmen. I'll take our roster. I'm not sure about LSU either. UCLA and Auburn are ranked, we aren't. Would you trade our roster for theirs? I wouldn't. Anyway, I'll be generous and give you 2 of the 4 you listed. We still have a Top 15 roster, and we are not young. Time for results!
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We just blew out Oregon in March. Since then, we've added 4 good players and lost 1. Oregon's talent is freshmen. I'll take our roster. I'm not sure about LSU either. UCLA and Auburn are ranked, we aren't. Would you trade our roster for theirs? I wouldn't. Anyway, I'll be generous and give you 2 of the 4 you listed. We still have a Top 15 roster, and we are not young. Time for results!
Said freshmen make up the no3 recruiting class in the country, not a forward coming off an injury, guy with two years off and a couple decent transfers.
I was saying UCLA just lost two this week as saying they aren't going to be ranked next week. I'm not going to go through year by year and compare recruiting rankings for each team and only scanned the class rankings for the past two years.
Also I didn't mention Auburn... I mean if you wanna include them go ahead.
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We just blew out Oregon in March. Since then, we've added 4 good players and lost 1. Oregon's talent is freshmen. I'll take our roster. I'm not sure about LSU either. UCLA and Auburn are ranked, we aren't. Would you trade our roster for theirs? I wouldn't. Anyway, I'll be generous and give you 2 of the 4 you listed. We still have a Top 15 roster, and we are not young. Time for results!
Last year Auburn brought in the number 47 and 59 players overall in the recruiting class (rated 22nd overall). The year before that they brought in numbers 22, 35 and 90 (rated 12th overall). And the prior year, number 65 and 67 (16th rated class overall). They had no recruits in 2018, possibly because of them being significantly implicated in recruiting scandals.
During that time we had the 12th ranked (2015), 22nd ranked (2016), 59th ranked (2017) and 106th ranked (2018) classes.
Auburn has more talent.
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Said freshmen make up the no3 recruiting class in the country, not a forward coming off an injury, guy with two years off and a couple decent transfers.
I was saying UCLA just lost two this week as saying they aren't going to be ranked next week. I'm not going to go through year by year and compare recruiting rankings for each team and only scanned the class rankings for the past two years.
Also I didn't mention Auburn... I mean if you wanna include them go ahead.
I meant to type Clemson, not Auburn. Auburn is ranked top 10 and should be.
I wouldn't trade our talented, veteran roster with anyone ranked 13-25 or with the team that will move into the Top 25 to replace UCLA. If you don't think we have a Top 15 roster, you and I disagree.
We've waited 5 yrs for this, it is time to take a significant step forward. Win 2 of 3 vs KState, UW and Buffalo and we are 3-3 against the 6 quality teams on our non-conference schedule. Anything less is vastly underperforming.
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You're right. Perhaps his sideline speeches better indicate that he believes his players can't comprehend complex schemes or language beyond a fifth grade level, not that he himself is actually struggling with the complexity of coaching against his peers. Similar to your posting behavior?
Looks like Mayfair has a new name.
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I guess I am tired of being unranked when we have better talent than half the ranked teams. Use Wisconsin as an example. We have far better talent, and it's not even close, yet there they are ranked and we needed a meltdown from a team in year 1 of a rebuild, to get to OT and remain in the 'others getting votes' category. Not good enough.
Food for thought, I'm of the opinion that spots 21-25 are solely for the benefit of drawing consumer interest to a game being played by two teams who are otherwise uninteresting. The networks paying money to broadcast the games want eyeballs even if it is a Tuesday night. If we aren't ranked top 20, I don't perceive it as a "real" ranking.
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I meant to type Clemson, not Auburn. Auburn is ranked top 10 and should be.
Clemson hadn't played anyone yet. Their first remote challenge, Creighton, beat them. They won't be in the top 25 anymore either.
A lot of these teams will not be in the top 25 for much longer.
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Is that a regular occurrence. I remember the one time it happened but I can't think of any other time.
Living in Texas, I can tell you that Texas fans are even more disappointed in Smart than we are in Wojo. Maybe this is the year he turns it around.
Knowing how unreasonable Texas is I’m assuming Shaka isn’t there a year or two from now. His ousting may coincide with Wojo’s and I think he’d be a natural plug and play at MU
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I meant to type Clemson, not Auburn. Auburn is ranked top 10 and should be.
I wouldn't trade our talented, veteran roster with anyone ranked 13-25 or with the team that will move into the Top 25 to replace UCLA. If you don't think we have a Top 15 roster, you and I disagree.
We've waited 5 yrs for this, it is time to take a significant step forward. Win 2 of 3 vs KState, UW and Buffalo and we are 3-3 against the 6 quality teams on our non-conference schedule. Anything less is vastly underperforming.
Who's really talented that you would put in the regular rotation of those teams? I see three guys. I like our roster, I think I'll like it more when Greg gets back. I think in time it could be that level if they assimilate and develop together, but on the talent + experience question I only think Hauser x2 and Howard are capable of playing regular rotation minutes on any roster in the country.
Knowing how unreasonable Texas is I’m assuming Shaka isn’t there a year or two from now. His ousting may coincide with Wojo’s and I think he’d be a natural plug and play at MU
Sarcasm?
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Sarcasm?
Nope
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Who's really talented that you would put in the regular rotation of those teams? I see three guys. I like our roster, I think I'll like it more when Greg gets back. I think in time it could be that level if they assimilate and develop together, but on the talent + experience question I only think Hauser x2 and Howard are capable of playing regular rotation minutes on any roster in the country.
That's the point. Wojo isn't getting consistently solid contributions from the majority of our roster.
John is playing well when not in foul trouble, but
Morrow
Chartouny
Anim
Bailey
and especially Cain are underperforming this season, to date.
Who's fault is that?
They are all talented players, who would be a part of any rotation in America.
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I wonder who these two are? I'm sure they have both been here before.
Figurin' der Ma and Pa, hey?
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Looks like Mayfair has a new name.
As wrong as charging $6 for mediocre late night chilii.
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Nope
There is a 0% chance Smart ends up here or MU engages him should they move on from Wojo. Regardless of whether "done deal" was true or not, Shaka definitely misled the MU administration. There is no chance they would hire him after the last debacle.
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Who's really talented that you would put in the regular rotation of those teams? I see three guys. I like our roster, I think I'll like it more when Greg gets back. I think in time it could be that level if they assimilate and develop together, but on the talent + experience question I only think Hauser x2 and Howard are capable of playing regular rotation minutes on any roster in the country.
That's the point. Wojo isn't getting consistently solid contributions from the majority of our roster.
John is playing well when not in foul trouble, but
Morrow
Chartouny
Anim
Bailey
and especially Cain are underperforming this season, to date.
Who's fault is that?
They are all talented players, who would be a part of any rotation in America.
No
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Nope
Why the hell would we want Mrs Shaka? Package deal.
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Knowing how unreasonable Texas is I’m assuming Shaka isn’t there a year or two from now. His ousting may coincide with Wojo’s and I think he’d be a natural plug and play at MU
Shaka will be in Austin for a long time.
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No
Correction...any rotation in America - outside of the Top 12.5.
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Correction...any rotation in America - outside of the Top 12.5.
No
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I agree, Wojo is a hell of a recruiter.
Please tell me which of these teams has significantly better talent than MU:
13 Virginia Tech 4-0 849
14 Florida State 2-0 794
15 Mississippi State 3-0 619
16 Clemson 3-0 462
17 UCLA 3-0 430
18 TCU 3-0 388
19 LSU 4-0 358
20 Iowa 4-0 354
21 Oregon 3-1 325
22 Buffalo 3-0 240
23 Ohio State 4-0 222
24 Purdue 4-1 199
25 Wisconsin 3-0 150
/25 Nebraska
Significantly better talent no. Better talent yes with the exception of Buffalo , Badgers and Nebraska.
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I agree, Wojo is a hell of a recruiter.
Please tell me which of these teams has significantly better talent than MU:
13 Virginia Tech 4-0 849
14 Florida State 2-0 794
15 Mississippi State 3-0 619
16 Clemson 3-0 462
17 UCLA 3-0 430
18 TCU 3-0 388
19 LSU 4-0 358
20 Iowa 4-0 354
21 Oregon 3-1 325
22 Buffalo 3-0 240
23 Ohio State 4-0 222
24 Purdue 4-1 199
25 Wisconsin 3-0 150
/25 Nebraska
I believe none of these teams would of won at Indiana or beat Kansas on a neutral court.
I agree with the poster who said Kansas St., Buffalo and Wisconsin will tell us where we are at.
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I believe none of these teams would of won at Indiana or beat Kansas on a neutral court.
I agree with the poster who said Kansas St., Buffalo and Wisconsin will tell us where we are at.
I admit, I am not at all objective when it comes to MU basketball. We are going to learn a great deal about this team vs Kansas St., Buffalo and Wisconsin. I pray Wojo and his men coach and play like Warriors, giving us all optimism for the Big East season.
Go MU.
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I've been in Wojo's corner from day 1. But, this team is soft, again. Time to move on. Chris Mack needed all of 6 months to get Louisville playing harder than any of Wojo's teams.
If we could just harness the brainpower of this thread.
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What do they say about empty cans make a lot of noise.
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What do they say about empty cans make a lot of noise.
Yep. All of two weeks to go from “time to move on” to a couple of wins over #12s and ”Wojo is doing a great job.”
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Why the hell would we want Mrs Shaka? Package deal.
Shaka's wife has a lot going for her...and ask anyone at the law school who makes high level decisions and you will hear that the rumors were BS.
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As wrong as charging $6 for mediocre late night chilii.
It's $7 now, so you have just outed yourself.
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Shaka will be in Austin for a long time.
I hope you're right and the Longhorn faithfull are wrong. I'd guess from your post the Texas fans have little pull.