Dayton

[buckchuckler]

Well I haven't seen them play.

But your eye test isn't really all that relevant.

Just like every opinion you (and just about everyone else) post.  Not all that relevant. 

[MarquetteDano]

The difference doesn't have much to do with competition. Most of it is adjusted win-loss. If St. Bonnie's had the same adj win-loss as us, they'd be #90 in the RPI as of the current moment.

Not only are they 18-7 vs our 17-10...

They've got 2 home losses... and.. 6?.. road wins

We have 6 home losses... and 4 road wins..

The RPI is stupid, but most of the difference b/w us and St. Bonaventure is due to adjusted win-loss..

They have a better overall resume, largely to your point of a better winning percentage.  Just don't believe the difference is worth 34 to 115.

[Goatherder]

Schools and teams that will not be invited to the Big East:

UConn
Memphis
Louisville
VCU
Gonzaga
Northern Kentucky
MIT
Dartmouth
Wisconsin
SMU
Alaska Anchorage
Oxford
The Washington Generals
The Rio Grande Valley Vipers
The 1926 NY Yankees

So now that some of you have recovered from taking the brown acid, let's talk reality, shall we?  The Big East is in no hurry to expand.  That has been made abundantly clear.  If and when it does, the criteria for consideration will eliminate all of the above, and the teams on the bottom of this list are no less likely than the ones on the top.

The original Big East was a group of Eastern schools with strong basketball traditions.  The conference was put together to emphasize men's basketball.  It was incredibly successful.  Perhaps more by circumstance than design, all but one of the original members were private and only two played D-1 football.  UConn was tolerated as the lone public university, but surely not added because of that.  Additional schools were added mostly to add football to the conference, and by necessity, most of those schools were public.  West Virginia, Va. Tech, and Rutgers would never have been considered for membership if it had not been necessary to add football programs.

The addition of football programs almost lead to the dissolution of the conference, but eventually lead to the admission of the five schools from C-USA.  However, tension continued between the football and non-football schools.  Football eventually broke up the old configuration entirely.  What eventually resulted when the conference was re-configured was a conference of ten private mostly Catholic schools located in the East and Midwest.  The focus of the conference is once again on men's basketball.  There is no possibility that football will be added as a conference sport.

So here is why the above schools will not be considered.  The conference is not going to allow in any school with a football team, because that school might jump at the chance to go somewhere else to play football.  The conference is highly unlikely to add any public university.  The private schools currently in the conference are generally smaller than public ones, have different missions, have similar concerns, have similar academic standards, and finance themselves in similar ways.  They do not want to take on schools subject to funding by some state legislature or one that is mostly a commuter school. 

Similarly, none of these schools want to send their women's track teams to Spokane, Washington or Provo, Utah.  Butler and Xavier were immediate additions. The conference would have gladly added Notre Dame, but they chose to go to the ACC instead, which turned out to be good luck for Creighton.  Going all the way to Omaha was both a stretch and a surprise, and would not have happened but for the fact that Creighton was a perennial successful team that consistently finished near the top in attendance nationwide and its president was on Marquette's board and had connections to Georgetown and Xavier.  The conference is not going further west.  If any schools are added, they will be no further west than St. Louis.  More likely, if any schools are added in the Midwest, they will be matched by new additions in the East.  Maybe SLU and Dayton are possibilities.  Probably not both.  Certainly not Gonzaga. 

The conference is fine where it is.  It might expand in the future, but only if there is a really good reason, and only to schools that meet the criteria mentioned above.  No public schools.  No football.  No schools requiring cross-country air travel. No unlikely candidate because they make a Cinderella run in the Dance and are currently popular.   The end.

[ChicosBailBonds]

My friend from high school went to St. Bonnie's.

I did the inverse...went to St. Bonaventure high school   

[ChicosBailBonds]

The problem is this.  What is the evidence that UW and Indiana have improved.  That they are beating other teams in the 5th best conference?  That UW, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio State, who all "started out slow, but improved" are beating each other?  That they are beating a Michigan St team without Valentine?  That they are beating a Purdue team that is proving to be grossly overrated because of beating a bunch of crappy teams OOC?

Maybe they have improved, but there is no evidence to support it, since we are evaluating it based on them playing each other and arbitrary rating systems that have inherent flaws that favor conferences like the Big Ten that can be more selective in their Buy Games.

Yes, you could make that argument, but then what you would be saying is that no teams really improve after conference season starts because we have no evidence of it as they beat each other up.  That sounds a bit naive to me, but yes it is possible.

But let me ask you this, do you think if MU were to play Belmont and IUPUI again today, they would have the same results?  How about Wisconsin against Western Illinois and UW-Milwaukee?  How about Indiana against Wake Forest and UNLV? 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Goatherder,

I can tell you with 100% certainty that some of the schools on your never going to happen list have been, are being, and will be considered by the BEast for expansion. I can also tell you that Dayton and SLU are never going to happen. At least not in the next ten years.

The conference and more importantly Fox don't share fans' concerns about public and football schools. Those are completely fan invented concerns. The geographically undesirable schools are a concern, but not ones they arent willing to work around. Remember, this is the conference that brought in Boise state and San Diego state for football. Obviously it's different for all sports but they have no qualms about expanding their geographic footprint.

There's no need to expand now, but if something doesn't change soon, we will expand before our next contract with Fox. Got to make ourselves as a lucrative as possible or we'll end up with an a10 level tv contract.

[GGGG]

Just like every opinion you (and just about everyone else) post.  Not all that relevant. 

<sigh>

St. Bonnies being a "fringe tournament team" isn't *MY* opinion. 

I guess I can't understand why people can't read...or apply logic...

[buckchuckler]

<sigh>

I guess I can't understand why people can't read...or apply logic...

Oh alas.  I also must <sigh> in the smarmimest of ways.  Maybe you should read and apply some logic.  I didnt say or imply anything about the bonnies. 

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I did the inverse...went to St. Bonaventure high school   

The university is located way out in Western New York, no where near anywhere really. 
Not to mention the climate is vastly different than Greater LA. 

[Goatherder]

Goatherder,

I can tell you with 100% certainty that some of the schools on your never going to happen list have been, are being, and will be considered by the BEast for expansion. I can also tell you that Dayton and SLU are never going to happen. At least not in the next ten years.

The conference and more importantly Fox don't share fans' concerns about public and football schools. Those are completely fan invented concerns. The geographically undesirable schools are a concern, but not ones they arent willing to work around. Remember, this is the conference that brought in Boise state and San Diego state for football. Obviously it's different for all sports but they have no qualms about expanding their geographic footprint.

There's no need to expand now, but if something doesn't change soon, we will expand before our next contract with Fox. Got to make ourselves as a lucrative as possible or we'll end up with an a10 level tv contract.

I would like to know what you base your opinion on.  Do you have some inside knowledge that you would like to share with the rest of us?   Where do you get the idea that the conference is not concerned with public and football schools?  It does not appear that any of either were even remotely considered for membership when the new conference configuration came together.  The initial reports were that the Catholic 7 were leaving the Big East, and that Butler and Xavier were being considered for membership in the new conference.  Actually, it is pretty clear that Xavier and Butler were a done deal.  SLU and Dayton were apparently discussed, but there is no indication that Memphis, UConn, Cinci, or any other public or football school was even discussed.  Are you kidding?  UConn was devastated by the breakup of the Big East, and the local paper cried about how the conference was ungratefully dumping the school that had made the conference such a success in basketball, ignoring the fact that the conference actually made UConn a success in basketball.

And "more importantly, Fox..?"  Fox is not dictating who the conference will or will not add.  Right now, the BE and Fox have a long-term deal.  By the time it is finished, Fox is going to want to have a whole lot more stuff on its network.  One or two potential members in the Big East are just not going to be a concern of Fox.  And the schools are surely not going to let Fox dictate that to them. 

As for the suggestion that geography was not a problem, that is just crazy.  Yes, there was an attempt to add Boise State and San Diego State, but for football only, and the Catholic 7 clearly were not happy about it.  They were also not happy about the addition of SMU, Memphis, Houston, or a few others, and when the original Big East offered an invite to Tulane, that was the last straw.  So no, this is not the conference that wanted to bring in BSU and SDSU.  This is the conference that resulted from the fact that its members did not want to bring in schools like that.  Adding Gonzaga or BYU or someone like that would make exactly no sense.  There is no school west of the Mississippi that is going to bring enough additional value to the conference to pay for the cost of sending non-revenue teams across the country, and it is hard to imagine any such school would make enough money moving their basketball teams to the Big East while leaving the rest of their teams somewhere else to justify all the grief, especially since there is probably not another conference in the country that would take them without their basketball teams. 

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Got to make ourselves as a lucrative as possible or we'll end up with an a10 level tv contract.

Find that hard to believe.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

As for the suggestion that geography was not a problem, that is just crazy.  Yes, there was an attempt to add Boise State and San Diego State, but for football only, and the Catholic 7 clearly were not happy about it. 

Why would the Catholic 7 care about the addition of two football only teams? Completely unrelated to them.

[Pakuni]

And "more importantly, Fox..?"  Fox is not dictating who the conference will or will not add.  Right now, the BE and Fox have a long-term deal.  By the time it is finished, Fox is going to want to have a whole lot more stuff on its network.  One or two potential members in the Big East are just not going to be a concern of Fox.  And the schools are surely not going to let Fox dictate that to them. 

I think you're kidding yourself if you don't believe Fox (aka the single largest revenue source for the conference) won't have some influence - and probably a lot of influence - over any future expansion. If ESPN can tell the ACC how to expand and with whom, certainly Fox can expect to wield some influence over Big East decisions as well.

The question, though, is why would the Big East want to expand unless Fox signs off on, and ups their fees for, it. Unless Fox is willing to pony up  - and to pony up they're certainly going to expect to have some role in the process - it makes zero sense to expand. Why divvy up the same TV revenues among two more programs? They'll only expand if it means additional revenue.

As for the suggestion that geography was not a problem, that is just crazy.  Yes, there was an attempt to add Boise State and San Diego State, but for football only, and the Catholic 7 clearly were not happy about it.  They were also not happy about the addition of SMU, Memphis, Houston, or a few others, and when the original Big East offered an invite to Tulane, that was the last straw.

It wasn't geography that made Tulane the last straw, it was the conference leadership being beholden to football interests at the expense of the hoops only schools, and bringing in programs who were seen as incompatible with the C7. If geography were such an issue, Creighton wouldn't have been invited.

There is no school west of the Mississippi that is going to bring enough additional value to the conference to pay for the cost of sending non-revenue teams across the country, and it is hard to imagine any such school would make enough money moving their basketball teams to the Big East while leaving the rest of their teams somewhere else to justify all the grief, especially since there is probably not another conference in the country that would take them without their basketball teams.

That'll be for Fox to decide. Hence their inclusion in the process.

[GGGG]

Why would the Catholic 7 care about the addition of two football only teams? Completely unrelated to them.

It wasn't so much the football only schools.  The Big East had football only schools for years.  It was the instability and decisions on conference membership that the C7 didn't really care for.  My understanding is that the C7 were discussing leaving the BE for over a year before they finally pulled the plug. 

And by the way, 3+ years later, I think that was a very, very smart decision by those schools to leave.  And adding the three schools they added was perfect. 

[GGGG]

I would like to know what you base your opinion on.  Do you have some inside knowledge that you would like to share with the rest of us?   Where do you get the idea that the conference is not concerned with public and football schools?  It does not appear that any of either were even remotely considered for membership when the new conference configuration came together.  The initial reports were that the Catholic 7 were leaving the Big East, and that Butler and Xavier were being considered for membership in the new conference.  Actually, it is pretty clear that Xavier and Butler were a done deal.  SLU and Dayton were apparently discussed, but there is no indication that Memphis, UConn, Cinci, or any other public or football school was even discussed.  Are you kidding?  UConn was devastated by the breakup of the Big East, and the local paper cried about how the conference was ungratefully dumping the school that had made the conference such a success in basketball, ignoring the fact that the conference actually made UConn a success in basketball.

Those schools couldn't have come to the NBE even if they wanted to.  Where were they going to put their football programs? 

[Goatherder]

Why would the Catholic 7 care about the addition of two football only teams? Completely unrelated to them.

The Catholic 7 cared quite a bit about the fact that schools were being added all over the place, and many of them were none too attractive.  By the time Tulane had been added to the mix, the BE had added Memphis, Temple, Houston, UCF, SMU that I recall.  I am not sure when East Carolina, Tulsa were added to the mix, but it was obvious that football was driving the bus.  The only one of those who was at all attractive to the non-football schools was Temple.  Marquette and DePaul had thankfully left behind conference trips to Texas.  The other five had no desire to go there.  There was a clear desire to have a smaller, more geographically sensible conference centered on basketball without having to make crazy allowances to accommodate schools with football programs. 

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

It wasn't so much the football only schools.  The Big East had football only schools for years.  It was the instability and decisions on conference membership that the C7 didn't really care for.  My understanding is that the C7 were discussing leaving the BE for over a year before they finally pulled the plug. 

And by the way, 3+ years later, I think that was a very, very smart decision by those schools to leave.  And adding the three schools they added was perfect.

I get that. And it wasn't my question to his comment.

The Catholic 7 cared quite a bit about the fact that schools were being added all over the place, and many of them were none too attractive.  By the time Tulane had been added to the mix, the BE had added Memphis, Temple, Houston, UCF, SMU that I recall.  I am not sure when East Carolina, Tulsa were added to the mix, but it was obvious that football was driving the bus.  The only one of those who was at all attractive to the non-football schools was Temple.  Marquette and DePaul had thankfully left behind conference trips to Texas.  The other five had no desire to go there.  There was a clear desire to have a smaller, more geographically sensible conference centered on basketball without having to make crazy allowances to accommodate schools with football programs. 

I get why the C7 didn't like the additions of the scraps of Conf USA, but your comment and my question was with regard to Boise State and SDSU for football only.  I don't think, in the grand scheme of things, those were the tipping point or even that big of a deal to the non football playing C7. 

I also think the reincarnation of the BE had much more to do with Basketball-centric schools than it did on geographical sensibility.  I continue to believe the BE would take Gonzaga if the Zags were in.

[Goatherder]

I think you're kidding yourself if you don't believe Fox (aka the single largest revenue source for the conference) won't have some influence - and probably a lot of influence - over any future expansion. If ESPN can tell the ACC how to expand and with whom, certainly Fox can expect to wield some influence over Big East decisions as well.

The question, though, is why would the Big East want to expand unless Fox signs off on, and ups their fees for, it. Unless Fox is willing to pony up  - and to pony up they're certainly going to expect to have some role in the process - it makes zero sense to expand. Why divvy up the same TV revenues among two more programs? They'll only expand if it means additional revenue.

It wasn't geography that made Tulane the last straw, it was the conference leadership being beholden to football interests at the expense of the hoops only schools, and bringing in programs who were seen as incompatible with the C7. If geography were such an issue, Creighton wouldn't have been invited.

That'll be for Fox to decide. Hence their inclusion in the process.

I just cannot buy the theory that Fox is going to dictate to the conference who it will and will not add.  Again, by the time the current contract runs out, Fox does not plan to have the Big East and nothing else.  It will no doubt try and acquire a lot more college programming.  So the Big East adding one team or another is just not going to matter to them.  There is no team out there that would dramatically change the attractiveness of the conference one way or another.  Fox would have to throw in a whole lot of money to make it even feasible for schools to be sending non-revenue teams that far away.  What school could possibly improve the value of the product to Fox enough to justify that?  And while I am sure that Fox would be consulted about expansion, the idea that they are just sitting back and ordering the conference to add teams is just not credible.  University presidents are simply not going to cede that much authority to a television network.

[#UnleashSean]

I don't understand what the hate for is with lower level football schools. Adding teams such as UCONN and Cinci are not going to hurt the conference. They have made it very clear that basketball > football. They can easily tag their football teams onto different conferences, much like Notre Dame does with all of its other sports. Or much like how Denver tags their basketball teams in the Summit.

[forgetful]

I would like to know what you base your opinion on.  Do you have some inside knowledge that you would like to share with the rest of us?   Where do you get the idea that the conference is not concerned with public and football schools?  It does not appear that any of either were even remotely considered for membership when the new conference configuration came together.  The initial reports were that the Catholic 7 were leaving the Big East, and that Butler and Xavier were being considered for membership in the new conference.  Actually, it is pretty clear that Xavier and Butler were a done deal.  SLU and Dayton were apparently discussed, but there is no indication that Memphis, UConn, Cinci, or any other public or football school was even discussed.  Are you kidding?  UConn was devastated by the breakup of the Big East, and the local paper cried about how the conference was ungratefully dumping the school that had made the conference such a success in basketball, ignoring the fact that the conference actually made UConn a success in basketball.

And "more importantly, Fox..?"  Fox is not dictating who the conference will or will not add.  Right now, the BE and Fox have a long-term deal.  By the time it is finished, Fox is going to want to have a whole lot more stuff on its network.  One or two potential members in the Big East are just not going to be a concern of Fox.  And the schools are surely not going to let Fox dictate that to them. 

As for the suggestion that geography was not a problem, that is just crazy.  Yes, there was an attempt to add Boise State and San Diego State, but for football only, and the Catholic 7 clearly were not happy about it.  They were also not happy about the addition of SMU, Memphis, Houston, or a few others, and when the original Big East offered an invite to Tulane, that was the last straw.  So no, this is not the conference that wanted to bring in BSU and SDSU.  This is the conference that resulted from the fact that its members did not want to bring in schools like that.  Adding Gonzaga or BYU or someone like that would make exactly no sense.  There is no school west of the Mississippi that is going to bring enough additional value to the conference to pay for the cost of sending non-revenue teams across the country, and it is hard to imagine any such school would make enough money moving their basketball teams to the Big East while leaving the rest of their teams somewhere else to justify all the grief, especially since there is probably not another conference in the country that would take them without their basketball teams.

SMU, Memphis, VCU, UCONN and Louisville would most definitely be considered.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

The Catholic 7 cared quite a bit about the fact that schools were being added all over the place, and many of them were none too attractive.  By the time Tulane had been added to the mix, the BE had added Memphis, Temple, Houston, UCF, SMU that I recall.  I am not sure when East Carolina, Tulsa were added to the mix, but it was obvious that football was driving the bus.  The only one of those who was at all attractive to the non-football schools was Temple.

And Memphis

[Pakuni]

I just cannot buy the theory that Fox is going to dictate to the conference who it will and will not add.  Again, by the time the current contract runs out, Fox does not plan to have the Big East and nothing else.  It will no doubt try and acquire a lot more college programming.  So the Big East adding one team or another is just not going to matter to them.  There is no team out there that would dramatically change the attractiveness of the conference one way or another.  Fox would have to throw in a whole lot of money to make it even feasible for schools to be sending non-revenue teams that far away.  What school could possibly improve the value of the product to Fox enough to justify that?  And while I am sure that Fox would be consulted about expansion, the idea that they are just sitting back and ordering the conference to add teams is just not credible.  University presidents are simply not going to cede that much authority to a television network.

I cannot buy the theory that:
1. The Big East would look to add more members without it resulting in additional television money, since to do otherwise would mean lowering every current member's revenues.
2. Fox would be willing to pay more for the broadcast rights for an expanded Big East without having significant input on the programs being added.
3. Fox won't care what the Big East does because they'll be too busy with other conferences/interests (because paying attention to more than one of the entities to which you're handing hundreds of millions of dollars is just too hard?).

None of the above seems remotely plausible.

If you don't believe that university presidents won't concede that much control to a television network, you haven't been paying attention to college sports over the past decade. Everything has been driven by television networks (mostly one particular television network).

[GGGG]

I don't understand what the hate for is with lower level football schools. Adding teams such as UCONN and Cinci are not going to hurt the conference. They have made it very clear that basketball > football. They can easily tag their football teams onto different conferences, much like Notre Dame does with all of its other sports. Or much like how Denver tags their basketball teams in the Summit.

Where would Uconn or Cincy place their football teams?  The MAC just booted Umass out as a football only member. Notre Dame is an independent. Denver doesn't have football.

And UC is actively campaigning to join the B12 and announced a renovation to their football stadium. They are committed to football.

[Goatherder]

I cannot buy the theory that:
1. The Big East would look to add more members without it resulting in additional television money, since to do otherwise would mean lowering every current member's revenues.
2. Fox would be willing to pay more for the broadcast rights for an expanded Big East without having significant input on the programs being added.
3. Fox won't care what the Big East does because they'll be too busy with other conferences/interests (because paying attention to more than one of the entities to which you're handing hundreds of millions of dollars is just too hard?).

None of the above seems remotely plausible.

 

If you don't believe that university presidents won't concede that much control to a television network, you haven't been paying attention to college sports over the past decade. Everything has been driven by television networks (mostly one particular television network).

Well first, there are lots of rumors about what ESPN might have done or not done to get teams to move.  They are just that - theories.  Yes, they might have had some input.  I do not concede that the networks tell schools what to do and they just jump.   That is just a little too conspiratorial for me.  But even if that is the case, there is no question that football is where the money is.  That is why there are so many of those stupid bowl games between bad teams that nobody attends.  People still watch them.  Basketball cannot come close to that.  That is just a fact.  And who can the Big East possibly add that is going to significantly boost its revenue?  Gonzaga has a nice history and people like them at tournament time.  They do not have a huge national following.  There is not a huge number of people willing to set aside time on Wednesday night to watch Gonzaga.  BYU has some following, but most of it is in Utah.  Yes, they want to be the Mormon Notre Dame.  No, it hasn't worked yet. 

Who else?  The only school I can think of that might arguably draw enough fans by itself to justify adding them for financial purposes is Notre Dame, and they are debatable.  It is not clear that their subway alumni are going to tune in to basketball.  But it does not matter.  They already decided otherwise.  If the Big East expands at some point, it will be in the way conferences usually do.  There will be some school looking for a place to play.  They will be a good fit.  They will be good enough, or potentially good enough that they will improve the overall quality of the league.  The Big East will be able to sell it to Fox on the basis that there will be more games to televise, and the teams in the conference are all respectable.  That is about it.  There is nothing else that is going to push the needle on this one. 

[MU82]

Goatherder:

I am interested in knowing why you are an expert on this subject.

I'm not saying you aren't. Maybe you are best friends with a dozen "in-the-know" types from Fox, the Big East and Big East schools. Or maybe you're not.

You make a lot of definitive, "I know I'm right and everybody else is wrong" statements. Just curious why you are to be believed more than others.