State of the Program Now, now

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

That plus the false start on Levin hurt us in the short term. Looking at who we have plus the pipeline it is pretty clear we will back on track toward most peoples  expectations  next year.     

I think it is going to take another year.  I would like to see Wojo make some changes - and hopefully we can accelerate things.  But my expectation this year was NIT and in the conversation for bubble.  I think now that is likely where we are next year.

[martyconlonontherun]

I could see us better with lower expectations next year. The BEast will be slightly down and we will win more games and less frustrating losses, but I don't think we have the side where Ellenson can take over a few games for a run in the tourney.

[THRILLHO]

I am encouraged by this year. One underappreciated strength of Buzz was keeping experience levels on the team consistent -- but he had the benefit of starting with a senior-led team and a full cupboard (Butler and Hayward). Wojo came in with a less full cupboard and has recruited his ass off. The team is young and inconsistent and it feels a bit like 2 first years in a row, but I am really impressed with the play of the freshmen and, Wojo's 2nd recruiting class, and think we're basically on the right track.

[KenoshaWarrior]

Duane is a Redshirt Sophomore.  Luke is a junior, even though he hasn't played the number of games a normal Junior would due to the transfer.


Here's what I think is kind of funny from the Buzz brigade that was on the chat at the end of the game yesterday.

HE isn't here if Buzz is still here.  PERIOD.
The players that drive me the most crazy on this team...Duane Wilson....a Buzz recruit.  Tremendous talent, but also puts himself in so many spots where he is disadvantage.  JJJ...also a lot of talent, but doesn't like to play defense.  Sandy Cohen...at times can look pretty good, but has had a sophomore slump IMO.  Must get stronger.


Buzz left this team with a lot of misfit toys.  He just wasn't a great high school recruiter and our best player wouldn't even be here if he was still here, yet some people want him back (going off the chat room yesterday).  SMDH

Buzz did more with less than any coach in MU history. Turned 3 and 2 star recruits into nba all stars.  Turned Gardner into a beast

You must work for the search firm that reccomended WOJO. Your defense of him is insane

[KenoshaWarrior]

It's not "spinning" to say Duane is a sophomore.  He is exactly that.

he has been with program 3 years; junior

Just like happ at UW is a soph

[KenoshaWarrior]

This is why the whole concept of burger boys is a joke.  It's a marketing gimmick as much as anything.  Buzz had 5 NBA players in the 2011 squad and was the last four teams into the tournament. 

Highly rated Wisconsin high school kids still are overrated nationally in my opinion.  Way better than they used to be, but not equivalent to the hype or rankings they receive.

Those 5 nba players were self made. They ate at McDonald's. They werent burger boys

[KenoshaWarrior]

Fair points, appreciate the response.

I agree with you entirely that many people do not and still don't understand how long a rebuild happens.  If you go back and look at the predictions for this year, there was crazy crazy talk by people.  Like unhinged talk.  Some of us were much more level headed, but I was worried then that people were out of their heads with expectations.

This is why when I hear the love for KO I have to chuckle.  It took him 4 years to get to the dance, against much weaker competition and not having a powerhouse program in our backyard.  How soon we forget.

Stevens, Mack, Archie Miller.  All coaches who lead teams to great results a year into "rebuild"

[KenoshaWarrior]

Strong point, strong post.

You should post here on Scoop more often.

Oh, and if you get tired of the basketball chat, you can always do some posting on the political board. That way you can really learn how stupid you are, at least according to our resident geniuses!

Iowa has football which means that fans are going to be more patient. We dont have the luxury to be patient.  We have a McDonald's AA this year!!!  The fact that we wasted it hurts bad.  Cal did not waste it with their McDonald's AA

[MU82]

Iowa has football which means that fans are going to be more patient. We dont have the luxury to be patient.  We have a McDonald's AA this year!!!  The fact that we wasted it hurts bad.  Cal did not waste it with their McDonald's AA

Too silly to even debate.

[GGGG]

Stevens, Mack, Archie Miller.  All coaches who lead teams to great results a year into "rebuild"

None of those were rebuilds like MU had.

[GGGG]

he has been with program 3 years; junior

Just like happ at UW is a soph

Are we really going to argue that a player who is listed as a sophomore on the roster and is considered a sophomore by NCAA standards is really a junior?

There are a lot of dumb arguments around here, but asserting that someone who is actually defined as a "sophomore" isn't a "sophomore" is really, really dumb.

[ChicosBailBonds]

he has been with program 3 years; junior

Just like happ at UW is a soph

LOL.  Yeah, Nate has the classification right, MU, the NCAA, everyone else has it wrong.  Good one

[ChicosBailBonds]

Buzz did more with less than any coach in MU history. Turned 3 and 2 star recruits into nba all stars.  Turned Gardner into a beast

You must work for the search firm that reccomended WOJO. Your defense of him is insane

What happened to Gardner the beast his senior year?  Actually Wojo wasn't the guy on my list, I wanted an existing coach, but MU never gets an existing coach unless it is someone like Mike Deane...so you're wrong again.

As for the 2 and 3 star recruits he turned into NBA all-stars?  Buzz did a fine job with many players, he also did other things that I'm glad he is gone for. 

Jimmy Butler was offered by Kentucky, let's not pretend he didn't have a ton of talent.  He was also a junior college All American.  Again, you make it sound like he never picked up a basketball before.

Jae Crowder.  Came to Marquette as the Junior College Player of the year.  Again, he was a damn good player before even got to MU.  Does that mean Buzz didn't help him?  Of course it doesn't...Buzz did a great job, but my God give it a break.

DJO.  Another Junior College All American.  Another player that arrived at MU very highly regarded and was offered by Kansas and others.

Dwight Buycks....another Junior College All American.  Offers from Iowa State, etc, etc.  Again, please stop. 

I could go on, but you are telling half truths or just flat out forgot the realities of how good these players were before the set foot on the MU campus.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Those 5 nba players were self made. They ate at McDonald's. They werent burger boys

Wait, you just got done telling us Buzz made them.  Now you're telling us they were self made.  Which is it?  You need to get your story together.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Stevens, Mack, Archie Miller.  All coaches who lead teams to great results a year into "rebuild"

Is this a serious post, or is the day off for you on President's Day have you thinking Washington and Lincoln and not hoops?

[KenoshaWarrior]

Wait, you just got done telling us Buzz made them.  Now you're telling us they were self made.  Which is it?  You need to get your story together.

I should run for political office 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Iowa has football which means that fans are going to be more patient. We dont have the luxury to be patient.  We have a McDonald's AA this year!!!  The fact that we wasted it hurts bad.  Cal did not waste it with their McDonald's AA

I wish I was a fly on the wall during the KO era, you must have literally lost your mind during that rebuild....literally.

LSU has TWO McDonald's All Americans from the 2015 class and right now, they aren't making the NCAA tournament...including the consensus best player in the country.  But hey, they have football, so it's all good.

UNLV, wasting their McDonald's All American

Mississippi State, wasting their McDonald's All American

UCLA, wasting their multiple McDonald's All Americans

So on and so forth

[ChicosBailBonds]

I should run for political office 

Yes, you should!   

[dgies9156]

Let me summarize so we can move on and debate other things:

1) A lot of us are disappointed this year. We have a Burger Boy and a Top 10 recruiting class. We see what John Calipari does with teams of freshmen and wonder why Coach Wojo can't do the same with Team Henry.

2) Some of us, myself included, are graduates from the Al years. Many in this group think it is our God-given right to have an NCAA tournament berth. When we don't get it, we need to blame someone. That someone is Coach Wojo, for not being Calipari.

3) Some of us were graduates from the Dukiet/Deane era and we think Marquette has trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time. We were very angry over the Wojo hire as we don't understand why we didn't get Roy Williams, Rick Pitino, Coach K, Billy Donavan, Shaka, Tom Izzo, the Huggy Bear etc. A few of us would like God to do that three-day trick he did about 2000 years ago and bring Al back (yes, I'd like that too, but he probably would do TV if he did).

4) We're an impatient lot. We live in Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan and Minnesota. Marquette basketball saves us from total insanity. Without Marquette basketball, we have to count the days until the snow melts and the lake turns from white to blue. Some of us are liberal arts majors who have trouble counting that high!

Seriously, we all agree the inconsistency is driving us nuts. We see what can be and we face what. Unfortunately, we probably aren't where we hoped to be when Henry came here and we can debate why, but it's immaterial. Instead, we can hope either Henry comes back or Coach Wojo finds someone who can make the team go next year if Henry leaves.

That's about it!

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

What I've learned this year.

1. Buzz could have had it worse.  I think everyone appreciated the 3-amigo season, but having Lazar was a huge advantage.  It really blunted the terror of what we are living through now - that combined with his JUCO/grad transfer strategy allowed us to not miss a beat.  Imagine if we didn't have Carlino last year...yikes. 
2. It sucks watching young players losing
3. There always is a place for JUCOs/Grad Transfers - the reality is that it is really hard to get experienced in today's college basketball with the expectations for playing time with these kids.   
4. We probably have another year of this

I am encouraged by the players and think Wojo could make some coaching changes to his advantage.  I sure hope #3 is a priority because that in my mind is the only way to accelerate things and not have #4 come true.

[Lennys Tap]

I've been laughing for days as some (mostly Chico, no surprise) make up stuff about Marquette basketball past and present. We're in a "long rebuild" because in year two all Wojo has left from the Buzz era is Luke Fischer, Duane Wilson and JJJ. And all he'll have left in year three will be (again) Fischer, Wilson and JJJ. And all he'll have left in year four is Wilson. Not great, I'll concede. But what did Buzz Williams have left from the Crean era in years two, three and four of his "rebuild"? In year two, Lazar, Cubilllan and Acker. In year three, nobody. In year four, nobody. That "rebuild" went to the NCAAs with Lazar, David and Mo and to consecutive Sweet 16s with zero leftovers - and to the Elite 8 (and a Big East regular season championship) the following year.

We're not coming out of the Dark Ages of Marquette hoops like we had to under KO. That comparison is moronic. Wojo inherited a program that had one down year (9-9 in the Big East) after it's second best run in school history. He expects to win today or he wouldn't be going after grad transfers, Jucos and one and dones. As I've said before, Wojo faced a tough situation in year one and gets a mulligan - but the hill he had/has to climb in years two, three and four is no steeper than the one his predecessor faced. Last year was understandable. This year's a disappointment. Next year? Fingers crossed.

[jsglow]

I think the pressure will really be on for next year.  Assuming HE leaves and Wojo isn't able to come up with a viable PF replacement by May, I truly believe season ticket sales will drop to approximately 10,000.  It may be true that next year's team will over perform but Scholl and Lovell will have to take note of the empty building they'll find themselves in.  Because when the building is empty, alumni fundraising dries up significantly.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think the pressure will really be on for next year.  Assuming HE leaves and Wojo isn't able to come up with a viable PF replacement by May, I truly believe season ticket sales will drop to approximately 10,000.  It may be true that next year's team will over perform but Scholl and Lovell will have to take note of the empty building they'll find themselves in.  Because when the building is empty, alumni fundraising dries up significantly.

10,000 isn't empty?  If it happens, it happens.  We've been down this road before and recovered.

Those that would drop their tickets are short term season ticket holders anyway, because they have very little to lose.  Not well heeled donors.

End of the day, Wojo was just extended, this is the direction the university has chosen.  MU has gotten better this year.

As for the comments by some other posters here about KO, long rebuilds, etc.  Timing and situations matter.  Some of those posters never do get that.  Sure, when KO took over MU was at the bottom, but the jump up was also insanely easier than it is today.  The MCC.  No Wisconsin basketball tradition of any kind.  Again...the MCC.  Even then it took 4 years to do anything, and there was some BRUTAL basketball in those three years.  Expectations were also different since we were at bottom.

Now comes Wojo, not my first choice, but I'm going to back him for at least two more years.  He inherits a roster of "highly rated" players that have yet to play high rated hoops, whether that was for Buzz or Wojo.  JJJ was consensus top 40 player in the nation.  Does anyone really believe this?  He's a good player, but top 40 good?  Buzz couldn't get Duane or JJJ going, Wojo has made some progress, but both of them still need to earn that rating.  I don't know if they will.  I hope so, but it feels to me that the ratings, at least thus far, were to optimistic.   Luke Fischer....it's funny.  I don't know if it is the typical anti-TC thing here or what.  But watching people slobber over Luke was interesting. Great kid, solid player, but the overhype was ridiculous.  He is what he is.  A solid basketball player that will get a little better year by year.  He is never going to be in the NBA (I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see it), but will make a nice pay check overseas.   So forgive me if these three guys are somehow supposed to be the anchor of some crazy great nucleus...they simply are not.  Sandy Cohen isn't either.  Besides, it's college ball...and point guards are key.  Something our predecessor didn't really give a rip about and left that position massively bare.

[MerrittsMustache]

Now comes Wojo, not my first choice, but I'm going to back him for at least two more years.  He inherits a roster of "highly rated" players that have yet to play high rated hoops, whether that was for Buzz or Wojo.  JJJ was consensus top 40 player in the nation.  Does anyone really believe this?  He's a good player, but top 40 good?  Buzz couldn't get Duane or JJJ going, Wojo has made some progress, but both of them still need to earn that rating.  I don't know if they will.  I hope so, but it feels to me that the ratings, at least thus far, were to optimistic.   Luke Fischer....it's funny.  I don't know if it is the typical anti-TC thing here or what.  But watching people slobber over Luke was interesting. Great kid, solid player, but the overhype was ridiculous.  He is what he is.  A solid basketball player that will get a little better year by year.  He is never going to be in the NBA (I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see it), but will make a nice pay check overseas.   So forgive me if these three guys are somehow supposed to be the anchor of some crazy great nucleus...they simply are not.  Sandy Cohen isn't either.  Besides, it's college ball...and point guards are key.  Something our predecessor didn't really give a rip about and left that position massively bare.

I agree with most of this post. Although, Duane never played an actual game for Buzz.

JJJ was an overrated recruit, no doubt. It's taken him a while to really find his footing but he appears to be getting there.  Next season should be interesting for him. I could see him being the leading scorer or as the 8th man.

Cohen is a 6'6" spot-up shooter (who is currently looking for his shot). There is a place for him as a contributor at this level, but this team is not the best fit for him right now.

Luke is a legit big man from Wisconsin. MU hadn't had a legit center in years and fans typically overestimate their in-state recruits, especially bigs (see Heldt, Matt). The fact that he left Crean was going to make it all the more sweet when he became an All-American at MU.

Just out of curiousity, who was your first choice for head coach?

[KenoshaWarrior]

I wish I was a fly on the wall during the KO era, you must have literally lost your mind during that rebuild....literally.

LSU has TWO McDonald's All Americans from the 2015 class and right now, they aren't making the NCAA tournament...including the consensus best player in the country.  But hey, they have football, so it's all good.

UNLV, wasting their McDonald's All American

Mississippi State, wasting their McDonald's All American

UCLA, wasting their multiple McDonald's All Americans

So on and so forth

For us it is a waste.  All the other schools you listed are always in the running for Burger Boys.  This is our first one since Kerry Trotter.   So when we get the chance to have a burger boy we need to capitalize or else it feels wasted.   

The truth is that the actualy reality is somewhere between your "Wojo is great and runs a clean program just give him time"and my "Win at all cost bring back buzz cause they played tough"       The fact that Madison never seems to rebuild even in a "rebuild" year is really upsetting. As far as programs go we have fallen so far below Madison that it makes me ill.  When buzz was here I would argue we were their equal if not just a touch better.   I would say the same thing under Crean.