6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?

[5DollarPitcher]

This.

Assuming we were going to the tourney this year, it's STILL 3 NCAAs in 4 years.

I know the big-time Wojo haters don't want to hear that. So they take their frustration about legit criticism -- such as our failure to come close to winning a tourney game during his run -- and go to the extreme: F-minus-minus-minus, and lop off his head. It's silly, and it ruins their argument because it's unreasonable.

C is average.  9 out of 10 coaches in America can't claim to have done even that.

So, naturally, FFFFFFFFFFF.

I hate to be seen as "defending" Wojo here. I have made my feelings known. It's just that when reason is thrown into the crapper, why even bother having these discussions?

As many people have said "A" as have said "F".  It's hard to say that giving his tenure an "A" is any more reasonable than giving his tenure an "F".

[#UnleashSean]

I'm sticking with "Wojo hasn't won enough and needs to do better. He gets a C."

Aside from the very few bluebloods (and maybe not even them), there isn't a single school in the country that would fire a coach who goes to 3 NCAA tourneys in 4 years. It's obviously not an "F."

Claiming that a coach whose last 4 seasons includes an 82-49 record (39-33 in a very good conference) and 3 NCAA tournament bids is an "F" ... that's a completely bad argument, and I know you're smart enough to know that.

I never gave an f. I voted for arby's

[Elonsmusk]

I was not quoting you or talking to you.  His prediction of Xavier, Georgetown and Marquette were not so great.  Similar predictions by Carson on his show.  Keep calling me someone else if you desire.

In my view some members here have ignored Butler, Xavier, and Creighton and have myopically focused only on the OBE members that came to the NBE.   

The ignoring of how we started the NBE also cannot be understated.  Picked to win the conference, we finish second tier in Coach Williams first year.  Then a coaching change and the usual player defections that happen as a result which starts the clock on a rebuild. 

Back to my original statement, MU has won three conference titles in over 30 years, in some rather ordinary conferences.  No coach won more than one. Despite this, we are supposed to dominate a top 3 conference when nothing in our history suggests this to be the case, and we have a coaching change, and we bring in other high basketball programs all hoping to establish the same path.   

My final comment for you and others.  It has been repeated here often that the administration will not allow the same recruiting it did for Coach Crean and Coach Williams.  If this is true, then why are you all expecting the same results from this current coach?  Coach Williams left because he couldn’t do it, but you expect Wojo to be as good when not allowed to go after the same players?  Would Coach Crean be the same without Wade, Hayward?  Would Coach Williams be the same without Crowder and others?  We should all have the same answer of NO, they wouldn’t be.  Therefore, why are you expecting better or even As Good results from this coach when he is not able to recruit the same type of players?

Well..Wojo had Markus.  The program's all-time leading scorer by a wide margin.  So Crean had Wade.  Buzz had Jae.  The results of one do not look like the other two.

P.S. - Wojo has looked at bringing in JUCO's. He's brought in one and dones, that had ZERO chance of completing their education at MU.  The standards really haven't changed all that much since Larry Williams left.

Let me guess "Warrior Dad," you're probably a big fan of another loser:  Larry Williams.  Right?!

[wadesworld]

My answer to the question is the inverse of everything I just said tongue-in-cheek.

1.  More than half of the new Big East was either a) coming from a midmajor or b) a perennially mid-tier or bottom-dweller program in the old Big East.
2.  The new Big East was ripe for the "taking"; at least spots in the elite tier of the conference were.
2.  Despite whatever changes were implemented on our recruiting requirements, Wojo has secured multiple blue chip recruits.  However, he has not achieved anything with them.  In some cases, the player has gotten worse or not lived up to their billing as a recruit (Cain comes to mind).  So your "can't get the recruits we want / need / used to get" argument kind of just goes out the window.

Didn't think it would need to be literally spelled out, but alas.

Cain was a blue chip recruit?  Who has gotten worse?  Lol.

Also this idea going around here that because a program came from a mid major conference means there's no reason they should've been able to compete with Marquette coming from the old BE is laughable.  Xavier had been to 4 Sweet 16s in 5 years and Butler had been to the national title game twice in the last half decade heading into the NBE.

But maybe we should get Gonzaga in here so we can get two easy wins each year as the doormat of the BE.  WCC team, no chance they can compete in a high major conference.

[MU82]

As many people have said "A" as have said "F".  It's hard to say that giving his tenure an "A" is any more reasonable than giving his tenure an "F".

Only a dope (or somebody havin' fun) would give him an A.

F is ridiculous. To me, D also seems too low for a guy who went to 3 NCAAs in 4 years, but we all have opinions. And B seems far too high.

C is average. For a school with our resources, going 82-49 record (39-33 in a very good conference) and 3 NCAA tournament bids in 4 years merits an average grade IMHO.

I know it's about 6 years. The first year was a throw-away, the second also merited a C at worst IMHO.

I never gave an f. I voted for arby's

Well, that's reasonable of course!

[brewcity77]

This.

Assuming we were going to the tourney this year, it's STILL 3 NCAAs in 4 years.

I know the big-time Wojo haters don't want to hear that. So they take their frustration about legit criticism -- such as our failure to come close to winning a tourney game during his run -- and go to the extreme: F-minus-minus-minus, and lop off his head. It's silly, and it ruins their argument because it's unreasonable.

C is average.  9 out of 10 coaches in America can't claim to have done even that.

So, naturally, FFFFFFFFFFF.

I hate to be seen as "defending" Wojo here. I have made my feelings known. It's just that when reason is thrown into the crapper, why even bother having these discussions?

Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years in. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

[Lennys Tap]

Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years in. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

Perfectly stated, Brew.

[4everwarriors]

Figurin' MU administrators are more dan satisfied, aina?

[WarriorPride68]

Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years in. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

Agreed. UCLA ran off Alford after be couldn’t make a deep tourney run. Texas did same with Rick Barnes. Maryland won share of big ten, but go ask their fans how they feel about him having a lone sweet 16 to show for.

MU hasn’t even gotten a tourney win. We should all be pissed

[Scoop Snoop]

Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years i.n Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

Very well said, Brew.

I have no faith at all in Wojo rising above mediocrity. Even if you write off his first 2 years, he had Sam for 3 years and Markus for 4 as well as plenty of time to recruit a balanced roster during that time. Go figure. Yet, apparently there are some people here who are not disappointed. Go figure again.

I will enjoy watching the freshmen next season and have resigned myself to hoping that we are somewhere near the middle of the conference.   

[5DollarPitcher]

Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years in. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

Nailed it.

[MU82]

Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years in. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

I don't disagree with a single thing you say here ... but that doesn't change my grade from C.

I am quite disappointed about the consecutive late-season collapses and the lack of an NCAA tourney wins.

Still ...

To me, an "F" goes to a coach who didn't make the tournament at all and a "D" goes to a coach who maybe only went once in 6 years while also having several losing seasons. But to go 3 times in 4 years while winning 39 conference games over that span? It's a C. It's not good enough, but it's a C. IMHO, of course.

[WarriorDad]

Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years in. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

In the decade prior it included three years of no NCAA bids, two of which had no postseason at all, and several no NCAA tournament wins. It included one conference co-championship with the 12th toughest Big East schedule.  When Coach Wojo arrived we were an average program that finished in the second tier, the coach left under the new administration rules, and we started over. 

Don’t mess with happy is repeated here.  He left because of changes in whom he was allowed to recruit apparently.  Coach Wojo doesn’t have access to that happiness either, but 3 out of 4 NCAA bids anyway.

Here is a stat line since year 6 is used in this topic.

Year 6
Coach Wojo NCAA berth
Coach Williams no post season
Coach Crean NIT berth

[WarriorDad]

Agreed. UCLA ran off Alford after be couldn’t make a deep tourney run. Texas did same with Rick Barnes. Maryland won share of big ten, but go ask their fans how they feel about him having a lone sweet 16 to show for.

MU hasn’t even gotten a tourney win. We should all be pissed

How did that work out for Texas?  Flagship school, talent everywhere, own television network, second largest athletic budget in the country.  They went backwards.

Marquette isn’t UCLA or Maryland.

[Warrior-Eagle]

Nailed it.

Just an observation that Problem Spotters are a Dime a Dozen in this world based on my experience. Problem solvers are difference makers. The problem in the last two years is games 23-29. Prior to game 23- MU is above expectation I believe. I am over the hill but have run a lot businesses in my life and appreciate antagonists to be the catalyst for change. Change may be replacement or development in my experience.

Pragmatically, it appears to me that we need to solve the late season decline while Providence needs to solve a slow start to the season. Just an observation. It appears recruiting is on track. Just an observation.Broader Coaching staff stability appears to stable.

Wisdom is function of age-experience and learning from mistakes which is a function of time in a job. That is how it worked in my businesses. Our coach is 6 years into the journey while Wright, McDermott, Willard and Cooley are closer to 14 years as a group. Coincidentally, they have finished strong with BE championships. Just and observation.

My last observation is that MU has a long list a assistant coaches starting with Rick Majerus that have been run off for a variety of EMOTIONAL reasons during the developmental cycle that other programs capitalized on (or the coach- O'Neil, Crean, Williams)and maximized the return and MU was left with maximum investment with a one time return and a lack of sustainable (Villanova) return.

Pragmatically, all scoopers want MU to regain a consistent level of top 25 performance as does the University. The cost of change in todays context has a lot of moving pieces including buyouts on both sides likely to exceed $10 million which just got tougher this week. Just an observation.

I am convinced that problem that we need to solve is same one that Florida, Texas and Washington is grappling with is a development process despite adequate resources. Just an observation.

[1SE]

I don't disagree with a single thing you say here ... but that doesn't change my grade from C.

I am quite disappointed about the consecutive late-season collapses and the lack of an NCAA tourney wins.

Still ...

To me, an "F" goes to a coach who didn't make the tournament at all and a "D" goes to a coach who maybe only went once in 6 years while also having several losing seasons. But to go 3 times in 4 years while winning 39 conference games over that span? It's a C. It's not good enough, but it's a C. IMHO, of course.

I gave Wojo a D - sure the "3 NCAAs in 4 years" is nice, but it obscures how he got there. No other team in the country had two consecutive late-season collapses as big as ours. In one year we went from being a top-10 ranked team to a first round exit. This year we will have went from ranked 18th to a first round exit (if we're going to assume we make the tourney, I think it's safe to assume a first round exit). And those weren't preseason rankings which were completely wacky- they were mid-February rankings. And it's not like either year we faced some buzz-saw of a late season schedule that accounted for the losses. There were lots of Ws left on the table both years. That takes away a lot from the "accomplishment" of 3 NCAAs in 4 years IMHO.

But the bigger issue, I think to Brew's point, is that even at a "C" is that where we want to be 6 years into Wojo's tenure? And like Brew, I think "C" is the ceiling. I'm not really excited about a guy who can keep us on the bubble and find us an early-round loss most years. I think it's clear to all that Wojo is never going to lead us back into the top tier of CBB. And if he can't do that, what's the point of keeping him on? Might as well give someone else a shot. 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

It’s not just the W/L results Wojo should be graded on, its the general malaise and energy around the program. We had reports the athletic department was blocking comments on Instagram and every Facebook post is filled with vitriol. The naysayers on this board may or may not be in the minority but there is a very vocal segment of the fan base that is sick of seeing this brand of basketball. Thank God for the new arena otherwise I fear ticket sales would be down. I also suspect merchandise sales have been affected.  This matters at Marquette! This coronavirus has knocked the wind out of everybody (be safe!!) but as far as my favorite basketball team is concerned, I wasn’t at all excited for the post season. I don’t think I am alone.

If he gets a C, it’s a C minus. I gave him a D.

[MU82]

Thanks to others for their perspectives, even hoopaloop deuce.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Thanks to others for their perspectives, even hoopaloop deuce.

I would like to see a picture of the backyard beer summit with new social distancing techniques applied.  Oh wait, that is only for 2 or more people.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Year 6
Coach Wojo NCAA berth
Coach Williams no post season
Coach Crean NIT berth

Except Williams went to two S16s and a E8, and Crean went to a F4, before their year six. 

Wojo has two blowout losses.

And you know this.  And you know its misleading.  Yet you trotted it out anyway. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years in. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

Amen.  Well said.

[lurch91]

Except Williams went to two S16s and a E8, and Crean went to a F4, before their year six. 

Wojo has two blowout losses.

And you know this.  And you know its misleading.  Yet you trotted it out anyway.

Yes, both Crean and Buzz had more success early in their careers at MU.  Wojo has been disappointing compared to their level of success. But, Crean and Buzz were able to get recruits that would never set foot on campus during Wojo's tenure admitted.  In today's MU, neither Wade nor Crowder would never be admitted.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Yes, both Crean and Buzz had more success early in their careers at MU.  Wojo has been disappointing compared to their level of success. But, Crean and Buzz were able to get recruits that would never set foot on campus during Wojo's tenure admitted.  In today's MU, neither Wade nor Crowder would never be admitted.

Oh please.  If you think the problem with Wojo is that Marquette wouldn't let in certain players that his predecessors got to recruit, you are kidding yourself.

And Jae wasn't on the Elite 8 team.  Not a single person from that team wouldn't be admitted now.

And I voted "C" by the way. 

[Eye]

I voted D on the premise from when I used to get report cards that a D reflects needing improvement. If someone voted C, no problem with that. Don't think that winning a BE regular season title once a class, getting to the BET title game 1 or twice per class or being competitive in a tourney game more often than not are unrealistic. 37 of the 75 teams in the top 6 leagues made the tourney in '19. So making the tourney is an average result in a top 6 league.

[jesmu84]

I voted D on the premise from when I used to get report cards that a D reflects needing improvement. If someone voted C, no problem with that. Don't think that winning a BE regular season title once a class, getting to the BET title game 1 or twice per class or being competitive in a tourney game more often than not are unrealistic. 37 of the 75 teams in the top 6 leagues made the tourney in '19. So making the tourney is an average result in a top 6 league.

Re: conference titles and tournaments - how often has that happened in the past with any of our coaches? And you expect it 25% of the time?